Alcohol
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People can pick and choose their harms and benefits for as long as they like.
It's when they pick and choose their own preferences for society as a whole, that is wrong.
Correct, believers should apply their intelligence. However I would far rather apply my intelligence here and now without risk or temptation than to "apply my intelligence" as is on the spot. Calm intelligence succeeds, rash decisions always falter no matter how intelligent a person is. So let's apply our intelligence here and now so we don't have a much, much harder trial there and then.
There are not one but TWO sets of risks from abstinence/usage. One set of risks is being dominantly focused on, the "great harm". While you are totally forgetting about the risks of prohibiting the "minor benefit". If the great harm is an ocean and the minor benefit is a lake in proportion, it still does not befit us as intelligent ones to ignore the entire lake just by pointing and saying "look at the size of the ocean".
Dose dependence. Heavy dosage of anything will intoxicate. 0.025ml of alcohol will never intoxicate. A bottle containing 0.025ml of alcohol does not classify as "khamr" just as flipping a coin does not classify as "maysir". Water and oxygen at an intoxicating dose will cause great harm and a minor benefit too, they classify as "khamr". We have to understand that a substance represents potential, not actuality. A gun has never killed anyone, but many people have murdered each other.
Let me show you a perfect example the synthetic opioid impurity MPTP. This causes Parkinsons and guess how it was discovered? Someone was trying to get high on MPPP and they accidentally made some MPTP and contracted Parkinsons despite no genetic inclination. Now we can use the MPTP to research Parkinsons.
Whereas in this hypothetical conservative society, people would hear the headline "Man gets Parkinsons from taking drugs" and think "gasp drugs are bad" and close the entire line of inquiry. We see that is what has happened throughout society, many intoxicating substances have profound health & research benefits but they are "illegal" because they are intoxicants. The muslim world is totally stagnant in these lines of research and the western world is barely moving along.
Instead there is a drive to produce crappy synthetic analogue prescription pills that mask symptoms instead of using God-given plants that have a far more encompassing effect, all because someone declared a piece of energy to be "illegal". Can you declare a pig to be illegal because you cannot eat pork? Will we be imprisoning every pig in a quranic society because they are illegal? Things like mushrooms, LSD, MDMA, they all have incredible potential to treat depression/personality/stress/anxiety disorders. These studies are being held back because of their "intoxicant" nature. So instead the benefits alone are suppressed, people still intoxicate themselves all the same, their negative effects are rife. Because the criminals are going to make their money no matter who gets in the way, even God (it is His will).
Forbidding the good is as much a sin as allowing the bad, it is every bit as evil as an intrinsically bad deed. Both of these things fall under transgressing the limits. These are both punishable by Hell. Imagine living perfectly, avoiding every bad. But then you are placed in hell, because you forbade the good and while it was minor in your eyes, it most certainly was not to ALLAH.
If it was "illegal" in God's law, it wouldn't exist. It's illegal in God's law for a man to overpower God, do you see any men around that can create/destroy? No. Again, and again and again, this is not about the individual, the individual will behave exactly how they please, believer or non-believer. This is about society as a whole, where any small change in something always has massive effects on everything. Even a tax raise of 2% pushes some people who were just about comfortable into total poverty.
Peace
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I'm not entirely sure where I stand on this matter yet (very interesting discussion though). However, I think we do need to refrain from seeing the word "intoxicants" and immediately associating it with alcohol and drugs.
Many things are intoxicating. As we all know, islam tends towards moderation. There have been plenty of research studies that show how eating fatty foods have the same effect on the brain as cocaine. COCAINE! Therefore, foods high in salt and cholesterol must also be attributed as intoxicants. Let me also remind you that obesity is climbing the tables as one of the biggest killers in the developed world. Not surprising really.
I'm not suggesting that fatty foods are allowed and thus alcohol should be. I am merely suggesting that intoxicants cannot simply be limited to such obvious examples. I think it would be a little foolish to do so.
"In them is great harm, and a benefit for people; but their harm is greater than their benefit."
Absolutely true.
Sources
http//edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/03/28/fatty.foods.brain/index.html
http//news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/07/110719-salt-cocaine-cravings-addiction-genes-brains-science/
Why not the obvious examples??? Which group of people you know during 600AD would know that water and oxygen when consumed in high amounts can be lethal? Which person during 600AD knows about ?fatty food? as being ?intoxicating? ???? Hence if these things were not known during 600AD how can the answer to there question include fatty foods , water and oxygen????
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling (this was a question asked by the people during Muhammad's time) . Say, "In them is great harm, and a benefit for people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." They ask you how much are they to give, say, "The excess." Thus, God clarifies for you the signs that you may think.
Why are people taking simple verses out of context??? Use a bit of common sense.
Other Questions
591 The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the contact prayer. Will you then desist?
How can water and oxygen repel people from remembering God??? What about fatty foods??? Can Kentucky Fried Chicken repel people from the remembrance of God???? Can KFC made by Colonel Sanders have that much influence to repel people from God and the contact prayer???? What about McDonald's and Long John Silver's ????
Is anyone seeing how absurd these arguments are?
The Quran is simple
5417 We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?
Nobody is not saying that you cannot drink alcohol or that it is forbidden to smoke crack. If anyone wants to do that then it is there own business. But do no twist God?s word when the interpretation is obvious and simple to understand.
Peace,
Kevin
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Did alcohol's intoxicating nature change between now and 5000 years ago? No, it's the same drunkenness.
Did fatty foods change between now and 5000 years ago? No, it's the same obesity.
Of course, a drowning man is suddenly very remembering of God like the atheist in a foxhole rotfl
Why do you wish to reduce quran to a set of answers to questions by a bunch of Arabs in the desert? They were not the first to call things "khamr".
"Can Kentucky Fried Chicken repel people from the remembrance of God?"
"Can Alcohol repel people from the remembrance of God?"
"Can insert inanimate material substance here repel people from the remembrance of God?"A bucket of KFC cannot even move. Neither can a bottle of wine.
When a person moves the KFC or the bottle of wine, then yes, surely yes, undeniably yes, they divert from the remembrance of God.
When that KFC fills the belly of someone with 65% body fat while another has 3% body fat and an empty belly on the other side of the world, then has God not been remembered. When the person with 65% body fat thinks "I am more deserving of MY fried chicken than those starving kids", then has KFC diverted from the remembrance of God.
When someone thinks "I deserve a reality where substances are illegal" while many suffer from easily treatable PTSD or cancers, then has God not been remembered. There is only one peace, do not make the peace into pieces.
5417 We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?
Well, do YOU wish to learn? It is not one sided a question. There is no "correct person" and "incorrect person". There is only the Sure Truth and opinion. Let them coincide. You percieve the absurdity because you are afraid of the results, just as a Sunni percieves quranist thought as absurdity because they too, are afraid of the results. It is human nature to be afraid of what we know not, even if it be truth.
Peace
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I think that the reason why this topic is so touchy for other people is because they themselves have some sort of dire need to further justify the consumption of alcohol and to place intoxicants (as mentioned in the Quran ) on the same level as water, love, oxygen etc. Perhaps they themselves are drinkers. Again those who wish to drink alcohol can do so anytime they please. So why stress yourself with nonsensical interpretation that are completely out of context???
Why do you wish to reduce quran to a set of answers to questions by a bunch of Arabs in the desert? They were not the first to call things "khamr".
How is it that you don't??? Why are you denying the obvious???
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say, "In them is great harm, and a benefit for people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." They ask you how much are they to give, say, "The excess." Thus, God clarifies for you the signs that you may think.
If I ask you a simple question don't I expect to get a simple response. When the people(Arabs) asked Muhammad this question I'm pretty sure that fatty foods , water , oxygen and love were not in there mind
I have the strange feeling that the people here who want to reduce Quranic verses to absurd interpretations are themselves drinkers.
Peace,
Kevin.
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Hi there,
Full discretion I have not had any alcohol in my life. Whether you believe me is none of my concern. But i will say that accusations like this are pointless and tiresome. I think all of us are simply trying to find the truth.
What do you think of this verse
"O you who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when you are drunken, till you know that which you utter,. ...." (4. An-Nisa 43).
And about rivers of wine flowing through heaven?
How about the fact that Allah has forbidden other forms of food very clearly
"Forbidden unto you are carrion and blood and swine-flesh.... (5. Al Ma' idah 3)
Whereas with alcohol, there appears to be, at least a certain amount more discretion given to the believer.
I am genuinely asking.
Thanks.
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Hi there,
Full discretion I have not had any alcohol in my life. Whether you believe me is none of my concern. But i will say that accusations like this are pointless and tiresome. I think all of us are simply trying to find the truth.
I was making assumptions and not accusations. Read my post again.
What do you think of this verse
"O you who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when you are drunken, till you know that which you utter,. ...." (4. An-Nisa 43).
And about rivers of wine flowing through heaven?
How about the fact that Allah has forbidden other forms of food very clearly
"Forbidden unto you are carrion and blood and swine-flesh.... (5. Al Ma' idah 3)
Whereas with alcohol, there appears to be, at least a certain amount more discretion given to the believer.
I am genuinely asking.
Thanks.
443 O you who acknowledge, do not come near the contact prayer while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or one of you come from the bathroom, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water then you shall seek clean soil and wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.
It means not to pray in state where you are not fully aware of what you are saying. Intoxication can lead to a person losing there state of reasoning.
? And about rivers of wine flowing through heaven? ?
I interpret this as having wine in heaven. So what's your point???
Again for the last time, Alcohol is NOT forbidden. What I have reason to debate about is the absurd interpretations being interpreted from Sura 2219 and Sura 590-91. Some may be doing so willfully while others may be doing so because they sincerely wish to understand the scripture.
Peace,
Kevin
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Peace,
For one we are indeed discussing "forbidden" in the context of 590/1 and 2219. If you agree that 443 refers to states of intoxication then it must necessarily be agreed that a believer is allowed to intoxicate and therefore have intoxicants and remain a believer. Just as if they are travelling, had intercourse, or became ill, or went to the bathroom. The prophet Muhammad laid a few logs in his time, that did not make HIM "rijis". A person can be "rijis" too, if they commit zina/shirk/kufr. Impurity can be a state of mind or an essence, a state of being (243). These are contrasted things.
I have personally tried intoxicants and been intoxicated, sure. I am not however, a drinker. The fact that I have that experience necessarily places me in a higher position of knowledge about this experience; not necessarily one of purity; just as a murderer/surviving victim can tell you more about murder than someone who has never murdered/been a victim of attempted murder. You don't see me defending murder however and nor will you see me defending any evils of intoxication.
Irrespective of the person you must follow this command
O you who believe! if an evil-doer comes to you with a report, look carefully into it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done.Indeed it would be very good for you to read the whole of that chapter simply to grow (verses 6,9,10,12,16 especially, might as well read the whole thing as it's only 18 long). I was once on your side of thought, never intoxicated a day in my life either and I too responded emotionally at what I saw was people condoning drunk driving, illicit sex, etc from my perspective of innocence/naivety. But what they were actually condoning is that intoxicants should not be prohibited. The drunk driving, promiscuity, all of that was in my head, my picture of what these people wanted to do. And that picture was based on my personal limited understanding of what intoxicants were at the time. They didn't condone that but my fear made it seem so.
Explain for a second what is "nonsensical". The human brain is fickle, when it cannot understand something for reasons emotional or intellectual, it cries "insane! delusional! crazy! liar! impossible! sinner! magician! nonsense!". These are only the cries of the foolish and you will see these examples throughout the quran as representative of the rejectors of truth only, nowhere will you see the example of a believer written in al-quran saying something like that. Moses and Al-Khidr is a great example; Al-Khidr was the mumin, Moses a muslim. In that example, Moses was in a position to reject Al-Haqq due to his limited understanding. The angels contemplated rejecting Al-Haqq and God reminded them the limits of their knowledge. Satan rejected Al-Haqq AND rejected the reminder and look where he is now. The path of the truth seeker is always bound by reason, justice and the true explanation, fear and emotion cloud it not.
Peace
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Here in the United States, our indigenous brothers and sisters know the dangers of alcohol. I have lived on a reservation before, and in the town there was a sign that said, "The Alcohol Spirit is Real."
In my opinion, it is best to stay from it. But I do know that some people can handle it. Ultimately, it is a matter between Allah and a given individual.
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I do not place my emotions before scripture. If that were the case then I would have still been a Christian, follow hadith and ignore the Quran entirely. I have undergone many stages of guidance that you are not aware of. What I have come to realize is that sincerity is key to guidance and not blind emotion. I think rather you and others are going a bit too far with these simple verses. What are you trying proof? What is this illogical argument about water and oxygen (and others) characterized as intoxicants???? Why are you disregarding common sense for absurd interpretations???
The impression that you and others are giving me from there posts is that you want to further justify what is not forbidden. Isn?t the Quran clear enough??? Why make absurd interpretations????
Peace,
Kevin.
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Peace
Where about in 2219 God says ?great harm?? It says ?ith'mun kabrun? which means ?great/gross sin?...God is precise and He has used the word of sin there.
Why those who know Arabic don?t come out and explain it why the word is sin if God didn't want to make it Haram in 2219? Hasn't God made Haram sin in 733 and the word isn't exactly the same as in 2219?
Ignoring the truth doesn?t make it false!!
Asana
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Peace Asana, you are keen to point out half the verse and put it in bold font for all to see. Why are you so not keen on pointing out the other half of the verse and putting it in big bold font? God is precise and He has used the word of benefit there.
Why those who know Arabic inside and out ignore Al-Haqq? Why are some of them claimed in al-quran to be the worst of the munafiq? Hasn't God stated in 5025, throw into Hell; every forbidder of good, exceeder of limits, doubter of His words?
Do you think that when you doubt His words, you are not a "forbidder of good, exceeder of limits"?
Claiming something to be true doesn't make it true! Do you feel safe from the punishment of ALLAH because you're on the side saying "HARAM HARAM"? The oppressors forbid justice, they too call it HARAM. The satan has many tricks up his sleeve. Appeal to Arabic knowledge all you wish, ALLAH knows His Arabic better than you ever will and it says what it says.
Kevin As I said, you will not finding me defending evil. People wish to FORBID THE BENEFIT of intoxicants. This is evil in every single way shape and form and although it is a minor evil it is also the worst kind of evil. Under no circumstances am I attacking your character but I would like to question why you are so resistant. Can it be anything other than fear?
Peace
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Peace
Where about in 2219 God says ?great harm?? It says ?ith'mun kabrun? which means ?great/gross sin?...God is precise and He has used the word of sin there.
Why those who know Arabic don?t come out and explain it why the word is sin if God didn't want to make it Haram in 2219? Hasn't God made Haram sin in 733 and the word isn't exactly the same as in 2219?
Ignoring the truth doesn?t make it false!!
Asana
Wrong, there's no such thing as a sin. There's good deed and there's bad deed. Sin isn't islamic
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Kevin As I said, you will not finding me defending evil. People wish to FORBID THE BENEFIT of intoxicants. This is evil in every single way shape and form and although it is a minor evil it is also the worst kind of evil. Under no circumstances am I attacking your character but I would like to question why you are so resistant. Can it be anything other than fear?
Peace
Forbid the benefits??? Did I not say over and over again that the harm outweighs the benefits??? go back through my posts.
And yes of course I am fearful of drinking. That is my personal stance. So why is there a problem with it??? Am I doing something illegal with respect to the Quran??? Having a negative opinion on a topic is not the same as saying that something is forbidden . If I choose to highlight only the negative aspects of alcohol it does not mean that I support it's prohibition. The only reason why I choose to only highlight the negative is because the benefits of the consumption of alcohol is menial when compared to the harm. This is not only scientifically true but it is consistent with what the Quran is saying.
Peace,
Kevin.
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Dear Asana,
Why those who know Arabic don?t come out and explain it why the word is sin if God didn't want to make it Haram in 2219? Hasn't God made Haram sin in 733 and the word isn't exactly the same as in 2219?
I am one of those who "know Arabic" yet you seem to completly ignore what I have said on the subject
Does knowing Arabic only qualify if I agree with you?
As for the verses you have quoted...
peace
Any sin small or big is Haram.Those who say that God didn?t made this sin that sin Haram they should read the below verse where the word of sin specifically has been used and God make it Haram
733- Say, "My Lord prohibits only evil deeds, be they obvious or hidden, and sins, and unjustifiable aggression, and to set up beside GOD powerless idols, and to say about GOD what you do not know."
And now see the same word as sin in 2219
2219- They ask you about intoxicants and gambling say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." ??.
Those who drink alcohol commit Haram for a small benefit?They sell their sous for a very cheap price
God, as you have rightly pointed out, is VERY PRECISE. Thus, had He said what you think He said (that alcohol is "Ithm/Sin" then He would be contradicting Hismelf by naming those who are intoxicated in 443 "believers/mumineen" which cannot possibly be the case if they are tained by "sin" and commiting a "forbidden" act.
What God does say is "IN THEM / FIHIMA" ITHM/SIN.
The difference is drastic to say the least....Alcohol in itself is neither a sin/ithm nor forbidden nor even restricted (with the exception of not approaching Salat) - however, WITHIN the alcohol there may or may not lay "sin/ithm" which is a bad thing - and this is the part that comes from the exploitation of the devil in causing strife and the missing of God's rememberance.
Finally, I would like to point out that the Quran always lumps "alcohol & gambling" together when God discusses their downside - which means that the "Ithm/Sin" that could come out of them is common and not specific to one over the other (namely causing strife amongst people and missing the rememebrance of God).
I don't see 7 pages of posts flaring up on the subject of gambling and how the stock market and othe instruments of chance are being used as tools of satan unless they are regulated further and controlled...Yet, this is the twin of alcohol's downside in the Quran and most of you probably have bought stocks for a gain or participated in a lottory or scratch card without making all this fuss!
Believers will not only have rivers of alcohol in heaven - but they will have it on earth because they do not fear nor forbid what God has made lawful. group
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lol. And in 10 years you look like a tired heroinist. I mean people make the difference of light and strong drugs, but they end up looking very similar in the end.
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Forbid the benefits??? Did I not say over and over again that the harm outweighs the benefits??? go back through my posts.
And yes of course I am fearful of drinking. That is my personal stance. So why is there a problem with it??? Am I doing something illegal with respect to the Quran??? Having a negative opinion on a topic is not the same as saying that something is forbidden . If I choose to highlight only the negative aspects of alcohol it does not mean that I support it's prohibition. The only reason why I choose to only highlight the negative is because the benefits of the consumption of alcohol is menial when compared to the harm. This is not only scientifically true but it is consistent with what the Quran is saying.
Peace,
Kevin.
Peace, it isn't specifically you as I said previously. Most of the people coming into this thread share the view that it is forbidden totally, although you personally may not.
As for the fear; explore why you are afraid and how deep that fear goes. Not to drink but because any fears will in some way obscure the quran; e.g. an absolute disbeliever in the quran is totally afraid of the truth, so it stands a total believer cannot be. Ultimately there can be no fear with the path prescribed by the creator except fear for the creator. I personally find most of my fears of things in al-quran to be interconnected. Fear only comes from the unknown, and while we personally can't know everything we can know He who does know everything.
It reminds me of this one man who stopped a vicious fight between two gangs, they had an array of deadly weapons and they were ready to butcher each other. He stopped the fight and brought peace between them in a really tense situation, putting his life on the line. An average person simply would not have the gusto to stand for the peace in such a time but he was one of those muslims who just knew in his heart that his creator alone gives and takes life.
Highlight the negative, that is fine, I will also highlight the positive. There is no disagreement between us for we judge from the same book in the end.
Peace
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What God does say is "IN THEM / FIHIMA" ITHM/SIN.
The difference is drastic to say the least....Alcohol in itself is neither a sin/ithm nor forbidden nor even restricted (with the exception of not approaching Salat) - however, WITHIN the alcohol there may or may not lay "sin/ithm" which is a bad thing - and this is the part that comes from the exploitation of the devil in causing strife and the missing of God's rememberance.
The sentence is
If the words are understood individually as if they were scattered in pages of dictionary, the above perception may be drawn. But here it is a complete sentence and all words are interrelated.
The sentence is inverted nominal sentence. is the subject, not the predicate. is prepositional phrase relating to predicate, the verb being elided, since meanings are evident from the preposition.
The severe delapidating effect/great sin is inherent in both of them..
And the ground reality is this
However, for certain people sources of profitability/ immediate/momentary benefits are lodged in both of them. Take note that the dilapidating/sinful effect of both is much greater than the immediate gain from both".
Word by Word Analysis 2219
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443
2219
590
591To brother Layth after reading all those verses do you think that Alcohol is overall a good thing and should not be avoided by Muslims ?
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Note that 243 explicitly prohibits zina for the mumin.
Anything that is totally prohibited in quran does not begin with "they ask you concerning". Why, because ALLAH exerts his rightful overarching dominion in those matters. There is zero question about the true transgressions.
Whereas when the people ask the rasool about something, only for intoxicants does he/ALLAH not give a specific answer (54, 2222). 54 says at-tayyibat is allowed. Does the benefit of khamr fall under at-tayyibat? Or is khamr totally haram, there is no tayyibat in it? Check 587/88 too.
O ye who believe! make not unlawful the good things which Allah hath made lawful for you, but commit no excess for Allah loveth not those given to excess.
For instance with regards to women it also says "keep away". This can be directly understood as do not touch and that is another matter altogether. The fact is, it says there is only harm and then it says keep away. Just wanted to point these verses out.
Peace
