Alcohol
-
I think that the reason why this topic is so touchy for other people is because they themselves have some sort of dire need to further justify the consumption of alcohol and to place intoxicants (as mentioned in the Quran ) on the same level as water, love, oxygen etc. Perhaps they themselves are drinkers. Again those who wish to drink alcohol can do so anytime they please. So why stress yourself with nonsensical interpretation that are completely out of context???
Why do you wish to reduce quran to a set of answers to questions by a bunch of Arabs in the desert? They were not the first to call things "khamr".
How is it that you don't??? Why are you denying the obvious???
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say, "In them is great harm, and a benefit for people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." They ask you how much are they to give, say, "The excess." Thus, God clarifies for you the signs that you may think.
If I ask you a simple question don't I expect to get a simple response. When the people(Arabs) asked Muhammad this question I'm pretty sure that fatty foods , water , oxygen and love were not in there mind
I have the strange feeling that the people here who want to reduce Quranic verses to absurd interpretations are themselves drinkers.
Peace,
Kevin.
-
Hi there,
Full discretion I have not had any alcohol in my life. Whether you believe me is none of my concern. But i will say that accusations like this are pointless and tiresome. I think all of us are simply trying to find the truth.
What do you think of this verse
"O you who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when you are drunken, till you know that which you utter,. ...." (4. An-Nisa 43).
And about rivers of wine flowing through heaven?
How about the fact that Allah has forbidden other forms of food very clearly
"Forbidden unto you are carrion and blood and swine-flesh.... (5. Al Ma' idah 3)
Whereas with alcohol, there appears to be, at least a certain amount more discretion given to the believer.
I am genuinely asking.
Thanks.
-
Hi there,
Full discretion I have not had any alcohol in my life. Whether you believe me is none of my concern. But i will say that accusations like this are pointless and tiresome. I think all of us are simply trying to find the truth.
I was making assumptions and not accusations. Read my post again.
What do you think of this verse
"O you who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when you are drunken, till you know that which you utter,. ...." (4. An-Nisa 43).
And about rivers of wine flowing through heaven?
How about the fact that Allah has forbidden other forms of food very clearly
"Forbidden unto you are carrion and blood and swine-flesh.... (5. Al Ma' idah 3)
Whereas with alcohol, there appears to be, at least a certain amount more discretion given to the believer.
I am genuinely asking.
Thanks.
443 O you who acknowledge, do not come near the contact prayer while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or one of you come from the bathroom, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water then you shall seek clean soil and wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.
It means not to pray in state where you are not fully aware of what you are saying. Intoxication can lead to a person losing there state of reasoning.
? And about rivers of wine flowing through heaven? ?
I interpret this as having wine in heaven. So what's your point???
Again for the last time, Alcohol is NOT forbidden. What I have reason to debate about is the absurd interpretations being interpreted from Sura 2219 and Sura 590-91. Some may be doing so willfully while others may be doing so because they sincerely wish to understand the scripture.
Peace,
Kevin
-
Peace,
For one we are indeed discussing "forbidden" in the context of 590/1 and 2219. If you agree that 443 refers to states of intoxication then it must necessarily be agreed that a believer is allowed to intoxicate and therefore have intoxicants and remain a believer. Just as if they are travelling, had intercourse, or became ill, or went to the bathroom. The prophet Muhammad laid a few logs in his time, that did not make HIM "rijis". A person can be "rijis" too, if they commit zina/shirk/kufr. Impurity can be a state of mind or an essence, a state of being (243). These are contrasted things.
I have personally tried intoxicants and been intoxicated, sure. I am not however, a drinker. The fact that I have that experience necessarily places me in a higher position of knowledge about this experience; not necessarily one of purity; just as a murderer/surviving victim can tell you more about murder than someone who has never murdered/been a victim of attempted murder. You don't see me defending murder however and nor will you see me defending any evils of intoxication.
Irrespective of the person you must follow this command
O you who believe! if an evil-doer comes to you with a report, look carefully into it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done.Indeed it would be very good for you to read the whole of that chapter simply to grow (verses 6,9,10,12,16 especially, might as well read the whole thing as it's only 18 long). I was once on your side of thought, never intoxicated a day in my life either and I too responded emotionally at what I saw was people condoning drunk driving, illicit sex, etc from my perspective of innocence/naivety. But what they were actually condoning is that intoxicants should not be prohibited. The drunk driving, promiscuity, all of that was in my head, my picture of what these people wanted to do. And that picture was based on my personal limited understanding of what intoxicants were at the time. They didn't condone that but my fear made it seem so.
Explain for a second what is "nonsensical". The human brain is fickle, when it cannot understand something for reasons emotional or intellectual, it cries "insane! delusional! crazy! liar! impossible! sinner! magician! nonsense!". These are only the cries of the foolish and you will see these examples throughout the quran as representative of the rejectors of truth only, nowhere will you see the example of a believer written in al-quran saying something like that. Moses and Al-Khidr is a great example; Al-Khidr was the mumin, Moses a muslim. In that example, Moses was in a position to reject Al-Haqq due to his limited understanding. The angels contemplated rejecting Al-Haqq and God reminded them the limits of their knowledge. Satan rejected Al-Haqq AND rejected the reminder and look where he is now. The path of the truth seeker is always bound by reason, justice and the true explanation, fear and emotion cloud it not.
Peace
-
Here in the United States, our indigenous brothers and sisters know the dangers of alcohol. I have lived on a reservation before, and in the town there was a sign that said, "The Alcohol Spirit is Real."
In my opinion, it is best to stay from it. But I do know that some people can handle it. Ultimately, it is a matter between Allah and a given individual.
-
I do not place my emotions before scripture. If that were the case then I would have still been a Christian, follow hadith and ignore the Quran entirely. I have undergone many stages of guidance that you are not aware of. What I have come to realize is that sincerity is key to guidance and not blind emotion. I think rather you and others are going a bit too far with these simple verses. What are you trying proof? What is this illogical argument about water and oxygen (and others) characterized as intoxicants???? Why are you disregarding common sense for absurd interpretations???
The impression that you and others are giving me from there posts is that you want to further justify what is not forbidden. Isn?t the Quran clear enough??? Why make absurd interpretations????
Peace,
Kevin.
-
Peace
Where about in 2219 God says ?great harm?? It says ?ith'mun kabrun? which means ?great/gross sin?...God is precise and He has used the word of sin there.
Why those who know Arabic don?t come out and explain it why the word is sin if God didn't want to make it Haram in 2219? Hasn't God made Haram sin in 733 and the word isn't exactly the same as in 2219?
Ignoring the truth doesn?t make it false!!
Asana
-
Peace Asana, you are keen to point out half the verse and put it in bold font for all to see. Why are you so not keen on pointing out the other half of the verse and putting it in big bold font? God is precise and He has used the word of benefit there.
Why those who know Arabic inside and out ignore Al-Haqq? Why are some of them claimed in al-quran to be the worst of the munafiq? Hasn't God stated in 5025, throw into Hell; every forbidder of good, exceeder of limits, doubter of His words?
Do you think that when you doubt His words, you are not a "forbidder of good, exceeder of limits"?
Claiming something to be true doesn't make it true! Do you feel safe from the punishment of ALLAH because you're on the side saying "HARAM HARAM"? The oppressors forbid justice, they too call it HARAM. The satan has many tricks up his sleeve. Appeal to Arabic knowledge all you wish, ALLAH knows His Arabic better than you ever will and it says what it says.
Kevin As I said, you will not finding me defending evil. People wish to FORBID THE BENEFIT of intoxicants. This is evil in every single way shape and form and although it is a minor evil it is also the worst kind of evil. Under no circumstances am I attacking your character but I would like to question why you are so resistant. Can it be anything other than fear?
Peace
-
Peace
Where about in 2219 God says ?great harm?? It says ?ith'mun kabrun? which means ?great/gross sin?...God is precise and He has used the word of sin there.
Why those who know Arabic don?t come out and explain it why the word is sin if God didn't want to make it Haram in 2219? Hasn't God made Haram sin in 733 and the word isn't exactly the same as in 2219?
Ignoring the truth doesn?t make it false!!
Asana
Wrong, there's no such thing as a sin. There's good deed and there's bad deed. Sin isn't islamic
-
Kevin As I said, you will not finding me defending evil. People wish to FORBID THE BENEFIT of intoxicants. This is evil in every single way shape and form and although it is a minor evil it is also the worst kind of evil. Under no circumstances am I attacking your character but I would like to question why you are so resistant. Can it be anything other than fear?
Peace
Forbid the benefits??? Did I not say over and over again that the harm outweighs the benefits??? go back through my posts.
And yes of course I am fearful of drinking. That is my personal stance. So why is there a problem with it??? Am I doing something illegal with respect to the Quran??? Having a negative opinion on a topic is not the same as saying that something is forbidden . If I choose to highlight only the negative aspects of alcohol it does not mean that I support it's prohibition. The only reason why I choose to only highlight the negative is because the benefits of the consumption of alcohol is menial when compared to the harm. This is not only scientifically true but it is consistent with what the Quran is saying.
Peace,
Kevin.
-
Dear Asana,
Why those who know Arabic don?t come out and explain it why the word is sin if God didn't want to make it Haram in 2219? Hasn't God made Haram sin in 733 and the word isn't exactly the same as in 2219?
I am one of those who "know Arabic" yet you seem to completly ignore what I have said on the subject
Does knowing Arabic only qualify if I agree with you?
As for the verses you have quoted...
peace
Any sin small or big is Haram.Those who say that God didn?t made this sin that sin Haram they should read the below verse where the word of sin specifically has been used and God make it Haram
733- Say, "My Lord prohibits only evil deeds, be they obvious or hidden, and sins, and unjustifiable aggression, and to set up beside GOD powerless idols, and to say about GOD what you do not know."
And now see the same word as sin in 2219
2219- They ask you about intoxicants and gambling say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." ??.
Those who drink alcohol commit Haram for a small benefit?They sell their sous for a very cheap price
God, as you have rightly pointed out, is VERY PRECISE. Thus, had He said what you think He said (that alcohol is "Ithm/Sin" then He would be contradicting Hismelf by naming those who are intoxicated in 443 "believers/mumineen" which cannot possibly be the case if they are tained by "sin" and commiting a "forbidden" act.
What God does say is "IN THEM / FIHIMA" ITHM/SIN.
The difference is drastic to say the least....Alcohol in itself is neither a sin/ithm nor forbidden nor even restricted (with the exception of not approaching Salat) - however, WITHIN the alcohol there may or may not lay "sin/ithm" which is a bad thing - and this is the part that comes from the exploitation of the devil in causing strife and the missing of God's rememberance.
Finally, I would like to point out that the Quran always lumps "alcohol & gambling" together when God discusses their downside - which means that the "Ithm/Sin" that could come out of them is common and not specific to one over the other (namely causing strife amongst people and missing the rememebrance of God).
I don't see 7 pages of posts flaring up on the subject of gambling and how the stock market and othe instruments of chance are being used as tools of satan unless they are regulated further and controlled...Yet, this is the twin of alcohol's downside in the Quran and most of you probably have bought stocks for a gain or participated in a lottory or scratch card without making all this fuss!
Believers will not only have rivers of alcohol in heaven - but they will have it on earth because they do not fear nor forbid what God has made lawful. group
-
lol. And in 10 years you look like a tired heroinist. I mean people make the difference of light and strong drugs, but they end up looking very similar in the end.
-
Forbid the benefits??? Did I not say over and over again that the harm outweighs the benefits??? go back through my posts.
And yes of course I am fearful of drinking. That is my personal stance. So why is there a problem with it??? Am I doing something illegal with respect to the Quran??? Having a negative opinion on a topic is not the same as saying that something is forbidden . If I choose to highlight only the negative aspects of alcohol it does not mean that I support it's prohibition. The only reason why I choose to only highlight the negative is because the benefits of the consumption of alcohol is menial when compared to the harm. This is not only scientifically true but it is consistent with what the Quran is saying.
Peace,
Kevin.
Peace, it isn't specifically you as I said previously. Most of the people coming into this thread share the view that it is forbidden totally, although you personally may not.
As for the fear; explore why you are afraid and how deep that fear goes. Not to drink but because any fears will in some way obscure the quran; e.g. an absolute disbeliever in the quran is totally afraid of the truth, so it stands a total believer cannot be. Ultimately there can be no fear with the path prescribed by the creator except fear for the creator. I personally find most of my fears of things in al-quran to be interconnected. Fear only comes from the unknown, and while we personally can't know everything we can know He who does know everything.
It reminds me of this one man who stopped a vicious fight between two gangs, they had an array of deadly weapons and they were ready to butcher each other. He stopped the fight and brought peace between them in a really tense situation, putting his life on the line. An average person simply would not have the gusto to stand for the peace in such a time but he was one of those muslims who just knew in his heart that his creator alone gives and takes life.
Highlight the negative, that is fine, I will also highlight the positive. There is no disagreement between us for we judge from the same book in the end.
Peace
-
What God does say is "IN THEM / FIHIMA" ITHM/SIN.
The difference is drastic to say the least....Alcohol in itself is neither a sin/ithm nor forbidden nor even restricted (with the exception of not approaching Salat) - however, WITHIN the alcohol there may or may not lay "sin/ithm" which is a bad thing - and this is the part that comes from the exploitation of the devil in causing strife and the missing of God's rememberance.
The sentence is
If the words are understood individually as if they were scattered in pages of dictionary, the above perception may be drawn. But here it is a complete sentence and all words are interrelated.
The sentence is inverted nominal sentence. is the subject, not the predicate. is prepositional phrase relating to predicate, the verb being elided, since meanings are evident from the preposition.
The severe delapidating effect/great sin is inherent in both of them..
And the ground reality is this
However, for certain people sources of profitability/ immediate/momentary benefits are lodged in both of them. Take note that the dilapidating/sinful effect of both is much greater than the immediate gain from both".
Word by Word Analysis 2219
-
443
2219
590
591To brother Layth after reading all those verses do you think that Alcohol is overall a good thing and should not be avoided by Muslims ?
-
Note that 243 explicitly prohibits zina for the mumin.
Anything that is totally prohibited in quran does not begin with "they ask you concerning". Why, because ALLAH exerts his rightful overarching dominion in those matters. There is zero question about the true transgressions.
Whereas when the people ask the rasool about something, only for intoxicants does he/ALLAH not give a specific answer (54, 2222). 54 says at-tayyibat is allowed. Does the benefit of khamr fall under at-tayyibat? Or is khamr totally haram, there is no tayyibat in it? Check 587/88 too.
O ye who believe! make not unlawful the good things which Allah hath made lawful for you, but commit no excess for Allah loveth not those given to excess.
For instance with regards to women it also says "keep away". This can be directly understood as do not touch and that is another matter altogether. The fact is, it says there is only harm and then it says keep away. Just wanted to point these verses out.
Peace
-
Dear Layth
Why I?m not surprised that you didn?t answer my question in light of the 733?Because if you wanted to discuss the word sin/ithm in that verse then you had to admit that yes God has used the exact word there and made sins Haram.
Does knowing Arabic only qualify if I agree with you?
Not really .I wasn?t expecting you agree with me?.I only wanted you and those who know Arabic to tell me what God means by using the exact word as sin in those two verses(2219,733)?.And I was sure that you wouldn't answer it and I was proved to be right.
You just said what you?d like to say as your own personal opinion rather enlightening me about the usage of the word of sin.God, as you have rightly pointed out, is VERY PRECISE. Thus, had He said what you think He said (that alcohol is "Ithm/Sin" then He would be contradicting Hismelf by naming those who are intoxicated in 443 "believers/mumineen" which cannot possibly be the case if they are tained by "sin" and commiting a "forbidden" act.
I can see a great fallacy in your understanding/logic dear Layth .If one eats meat of pig should the person observe contact prayer/Salat or not? If not why not, if yes then why ?because according to your logic, the person committed an act of Haram.
God commands the believers what to do and not to do .Does that mean if a believer commit some sin should God command him/her not to observe Salat ? He askes the one who used the toxicant not to observer Salat because of the state of the mind to know what he/she says.The user of the intoxicant might utter blasphemy instead of praising/glorifying God.Isn?t God Merciful that ask them not to observe Salat ?Or was His intention that to endorse the using intoxicant for the believers is fine?Which one is?
Finally, I would like to point out that the Quran always lumps "alcohol & gambling" together when God discusses their downside - which means that the "Ithm/Sin" that could come out of them is common and not specific to one over the other (namely causing strife amongst people and missing the rememebrance of God).
Contradiction. God mentions four satanic acts in one verse after each other (590).And He asks us to avoid them. Would you think it?s ok if we commit a little bit of Idolatry? If not why not? If Idolatry as small as atom is a sin and we should avoid it then why not intoxicant and gambling can't be sin especially when God uses the word of sin for it?
I don't see 7 pages of posts flaring up on the subject of gambling and how the stock market and othe instruments of chance are being used as tools of satan unless they are regulated further and controlled...Yet, this is the twin of alcohol's downside in the Quran and most of you probably have bought stocks for a gain or participated in a lottory or scratch card without making all this fuss!
You?re right. nobody said a thing about gambling and game of chance but nobody said about altars of idols too that we must avoid ? .nobody said one word that no matter how small is an act of idolatry it is a sin and is Haram and must be avoided too! And yet God used one verb for four satanic acts to be avoided.
Believers will not only have rivers of alcohol in heaven - but they will have it on earth because they do not fear nor forbid what God has made lawful.
Fallacy again. In 1667 God mentions making of intoxicants and good provision from palms and grapes? If intoxicant was good provision then why mentioning of ?good provision? there? He could have only said that you make good provision from Palms and grapes then we all knew that intoxicants are good provision too.
By saying that drinking Alcohol is ok since God has mentioned it 4715 in Paradise then it means God contradict Himself. It means in one verse He?s asking us to avoid them and in another verse He is going to feed us with it!!Wowwwwwwwww! Surely that wine is not intoxicant as in our human concept like the water there is not polluted too.
1667-And from the fruits of date palms and grapes you produce intoxicants, as well as good provisions. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who understand.
590- O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed.
God does not leave the believers live in gray zone....His truth is either black or white....Those who believe using intoxicants is ok since God mentioned of some benefit in them live in gray zone which is man-made.
peace
Asana -
Dear Edip
Eventhough not addressed to me, I would like to ask you if I understood your point correctly. You state alcohol is the deed of Satan, but you still do not say it is forbidden. Am I to interpret this as you share the view that "no, it is not stated as forbidden in the Quran, but it warns us to the full about the dangers"?
Dear Emil,
I am not clear what you mean by "forbidden". If you mean legal ban, then my answer is a No. It is left to the society to regulate alcoholic beverages. I am personally against criminalization of using alcohol and drugs.
However, if you mean morally or spiritually. Absolutely. There is not a magic word, a single word to forbid a thing or act. If God tells us that something is from Satan and recommends us to stay away from it, then it is forbidden. I cannot understand how people can deduce permission from such a strong divine injunction.
Peace,
Edip -
It is the "effects" that carry the possibility of being "deeds of satan" (Rijs min amal alshaytan), and not the alcohol itself. A similar example can be found in 1764 where God tells us that satan may share in peoples wealth and children...that does not make these things (wealth, children) evil or satanic in themselves, but it means that satan can have influence over our dealing with such things to cause us more harm than good...
The wording of the verse that you refer to is not similar to the verse about intoxicants. Satan might try to divert us through our children and possession, but it does not mean that our children and possession in default are satanic. If we do not allow to Satan we can have them as blessing. As for intoxicants, they are themselves claimed to be "the work of devil"
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say ?In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit...?
No forbidden, no avoid...just a warning that they contain good and bad and that the bad typically outweighs the good.
You are right if this was the only verse on this subject. Verse 590 asks us to avoid it.
Also, I know you are not a believer in the Sunni abrogation theory, so you are fully aware of the regulation of 443 that asks people not to approach Salat while intoxicated - which by default makes it clearly permissible.
The followers of hadith and sunna reject this statement by claiming the presence of a contradiction between this verse (443) and other verses prohibiting the intoxicants. Their rejection of God's verse and their allegation of contradiction in God's book are due to their ignorance of the fact that there could be individuals among muslims who consume alcoholic beverages just as there could be those who steal, commit adultery, or commit false accusation.
Acknowledgement of the imperfect nature of a Muslim community does not mean that God justifies sins and crimes. Our Lord informs a Muslim who is doing wrong to himself or herself by consuming alcohol not to commit additional disrespect to God by addressing God in a drunken state of mind. Additionally, this verse indirectly gives permission to the community to not to allow their intoxicated brothers and sisters into the places of prostration. Another lesson derived from this commandment is that we should know what we are saying or reciting during our prayers. Reciting Arabic words without knowing their meanings is like praying while intoxicated. See 2106; 482.
Peace
Edip
