A Possible Oversight of 4:34???
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Quote from Mazhar on Today at 111005 AM
Another quote-Lane
A people or body of persons composing a community and people or persons; a company or body or party of men without women; or of men and women together for the Qaum of every man is his party, and his kinsfolk or tribe.
I hope the purpose or cause of mentioning women separately would be understood for reason of prevailing perception about the word Qaum.
Nowhere in that paragraph does it say that Qawm Originally signified only men.
Take verbace and put mouse on both the words, you will get .
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Quote from Mazhar on Today at 103810 AM
In translation, while keeping regard for the target language, an attempt need to be made to avoid "translation loss" to the maximum. "some people of a community"- signifies a group of people from amongst people=a group of women from amongst women.But the problem is that there is an Arabic word for some or some of and that word is Ba'aDdun and this word is NOT mentioned or used in 4911, yet it is used elsewhere in The Quran. If the idea of SOME or SOME OF was meant to be conveyed, then the most appropriate word to convey that idea would have been used. But......
But you seem ignoring "Min" which is for denoting .
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Mazhar,
You are completely ignoring the questions that I have asked and the requests that I have made based upon those critical questions.
If/When you decide you would like to address those things then I will decide to continue a correspondence with you.
Until then......
If OPF, Abdul Hadi and Eikonoklastes wish to continue our discussion (and NOT defend pre taught and pre conceived arguments) I would be happy to do so.
For the record,
does not mean singular "man" which is why it is not (and I'm sure has never been) used to mean such in The Quran or in Actual written and/or spoken Arabic Text.I'm not interested in Theories, I prefer facts.
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Peace everyone -- good to be back with my original pseudo. )
I believe it is impossible for Nisaa' to mean wives either.
Use context apply logic to deduce the correct and best meaning which nisan always means female any age whereas rijlan a group with at least one male any age same as ikh'watan/brethren ? clearly derived from inheritance verses ?
411 directs you The God in your children to the male like share the two (feminine) so if are females above two (feminine) so for them two thirds what left the deceased and if was one so for her the half
4176 and if they are ikh'watan/brethren rijlan (i.e. males) and females so to the male like share the two (feminine) clarifies The God to you lest you stray and The God in every thing Knowing
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O see 7840
Dear Mazhar,
I had told you that I would NOT discuss anything further with you if would not address the points I have made. I believe that your post quoted above is a sincere attempt at addressing at least ONE of my questions which is the only reason why I am responding. But after this, I will not respond to you any further and I'll tell you why.
When people discuss issues of theology/religion, politics and social issues (and many times "science" you're always going to have people who only wish to defend the status quo!!! For these people, their minds cannot fathom the possibility that what we have been taught and believed in for so long is actually all wrong and the result of CENTURIES of the status quo being adhered to due to official political decrees, the fear of repurcussion of the people in charge as well as the common people in society and myriad of other reasons. If I were to go any further into the reasons, I fear that some people will start calling me Conspiracy Theorist among other things.
But the main point I am trying to make with this explanation is that some people wish to ascertain the truth, while some people simply wish to win an argument/debate. I was never here to debate or argue, let alone win an argument. I only wish to strip the present status quo of the obvious flaws, use a process of elimination and find out what the words and passages of The Quran actually mean.
I have been going at it for years with people who immediately retort with the official and unquestioned party lines and status quo without even bothering to give at least a second thought at what has been produced to challenge the status quo. I find people like that to be ridiculous and NOT WORTH MY TIME AND EFFORTS!!!! If a person absolutely refuses to THINK for him or herself, ask QUESTIONS and STOP letting tradition to do their thinking for them, then I am merely spitting in the wind if I try to get them to think outside of the box and question what they presently believe. I never said to do an immediate turn around and an "about face". I am merely asking people to THINK!!!! If a person refuses to do that and wish to make something fit even if it insults our common sense and logic, then I have to wash my hands of such a person and move on. That is why I cannot discuss this any further with you.
As for 2102 and 7840, I am telling you THE SAME THING I HAVE TOLD BROTHER ABDUL HADI and that is I have come to believe that certain words in The Quran DO NOT mean what the people unquestionably accept them to mean. Brother Abdul Hadi had pointed out 2222 and 781 to which I responded that I do not believe 2222 is talking about the menstruation of women because I am firm (based upon using tasreef, questioning and using logic) that nisaa' does not mean women and therefore 2222 isn't talking about the menstruation of women. Based upon the same principles, I do not believe that 781 is talking about homosexuality. And FURTHER MORE...The Quran IS NOT a religious book. It has nothing to do with religion or religious rituals and beliefs.
Just as I have come to believe that 2222 and 781 are not talking about women's menstruation and homosexuals respectively, I simply DO NOT accept that the word Al Mara'u means singular man. For one thing, this is a definite noun with the definite article, so that alone I think smacks away the idea that this word means the singular man. It doesn't make any sense at all.
We have reached an age where there are many Of Us who are in the middle of the journey of re-examining The Quran and taking a fresh new look at many words and passages. This is what we do at Aastana. We have come to realize there were some criminals in The Quran's history that have done some really terrible things for the sake of political gain and putting these moronic shackles on The Quran was one of the smoothest (yet dirtiest) things they have done. We are still suffering and bickering to this very day because of what they have done centuries ago. But some of us have said NO MORE!! And we have decided to strip the floor or wipe the slate clean and start the examination of it all over from a more accurate and appropriate perspective.
2102 and 7840 are two such passages with misinterpretations that need to be re-examined. It amazes me that you can think the definite noun Al-Mara'u can be a singular term of man when we already have rajul and its plural form. If you do not wish to step outside of the box of tradition, then that's on you. If you ever decide that you are willing to do your own thinking, stop letting centuries of tradition do your thinking for you and at least QUESTION many of the things that we have been taught (especially when they insult our logic and common sense) then you and I can discuss further. Until then, all I can say to you is Peace. To you is your way and to me is my way.
I am going to say this one last time to you. Al Mara'u is a DEFINITE NOUN and so it cannot mean A Man. Secondly, we already have the word rajul for man, the word zawj for husband/male companion and the word Dhakarun to mean male gender. If you wish to continue to think that the definite noun Al-Mara'u means the singular man (even if it doesn't make any sense at all), then more power to you. And just so you know that I am not making this up on the spot to refute you, please see my response to Brother Abdul Hadi concerning 2222 and 781.
I am terminating my correspondence with you Mazhar. No hard feelings on my part and I send my greetings of Peace to you.
Abdul Hadi, OPF, Eikonoklastes. I am here and I am waiting if ever you decide to go further and EXPLORE the other many possibilities of some of these Quran passages.
Salaam.
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2102 and 7840 are two such passages with misinterpretations that need to be re-examined. It amazes me that you can think the definite noun Al-Mara'u can be a singular term of man when we already have rajul and its plural form. If you do not wish to step outside of the box of tradition, then that's on you. If you ever decide that you are willing to do your own thinking, stop letting centuries of tradition do your thinking for you and at least QUESTION many of the things that we have been taught (especially when they insult our logic and common sense) then you and I can discuss further. Until then, all I can say to you is Peace. To you is your way and to me is my way.
I had also coloured red the pronoun referring back to singular definite noun and that pronoun is for singular, third person, masculine. Self perceived notions hamper seeing the so vivid realities.
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The Arabic of 434 says Ar-rijaalu qawwaamuuna 'alaa 'Nisaaa'..it does NOT say...Az-Zauwj qawwaamuuna 'alaa Az-Zauwja.
Can you transcribe it in Arabic.Are these English words represent like this
I insist for response on this since it is perhaps the basic premise of original post of the thread.
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Hello Shirley. This website agrees with you...
http//revolutionpsyche.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/if-nisa-meant-women/
One of the comments suggested that 'qawm' means 'established society' and 'nisa' means 'those who are developing'.
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Hello Shirley. This website agrees with you...
http//revolutionpsyche.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/if-nisa-meant-women/
One of the comments suggested that 'qawm' means 'established society' and 'nisa' means 'those who are developing'.
Hello and Peace To You Mr. Eric Michael Torres,
Thanks for the info. I will be sure to check that website out at some point today.
Actually this is the point that I was trying to get to but I wanted to WALK through all of the options and alternatives of interpretation, ignite the Process of Elimination and eventually arrive at the only logical conclusion. But this is near impossible when people decide that they want to hang on to traditional understandings and refuse to question established "Official" teachings and the status quo.
Our friend Noon Dhe Plume also brought up what most believe are Inheritance Verses when he posted 411 and 4176. The point that I have been trying to make is that ALL of the Quranic verses believed to be talking about women when the Arabic word Nisaa' is mentioned need to be re looked at and re interpreted once we ascertain with absolute certainty that the word Nisaa' DOES NOT mean WOMEN!! And if Nisaa' does not mean women, then 411 and 4176 isn't talking about a share of inheritance for women or females....at least not in particular.
Anyway, the explanation that you have given from the website you have posted is very, very close to how I am presently understanding the meanings of Qawmun and Nisaa'un.
Salaam.
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Being that I do not know Arabic, I have nothing of academic value to add to this post. I just wanted to show my appreciation for it. Peace all.
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Anyone know the Arabic word for 'woman'? (the singular form, not plural)
With that being said, does anyone know of another Arabic word from the same root with a similar spelling which, I assume, should be the plural form?
Please give references from the god's Arabic reading. -
Anyone know the Arabic word for 'woman'? (the singular form, not plural)
With that being said, does anyone know of another Arabic word from the same root with a similar spelling which, I assume, should be the plural form?
Please give references from the god's Arabic reading.Peace Eric --
If referring to above two women/females then nisa is used otherwise singular and dual ...
411 so if are Nis/females feminine plural noun above two (feminine)
412 and if is a man inherited kalla or Amra'atu a woman feminine noun
2823 and he found from besides them Amra'tayni two women feminine dual noun
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Hey Shirley, the following site...
http//www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/md/read/id/314123119165942
...is similar to what I mentioned before...
http//revolutionpsyche.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/if-nisa-meant-women/Regarding the word amra'atu (one woman) shouldn't the singular be the same word as the plural but with one, maybe two additional letters attached to it.
For example, the word muslimeen is the word muslim but with the two letters at the end.Applying logic we get...
kafir is to kafireen
...in the same way as...
muslim is to muslimeen
...in the same way as...
amra'atu is to ??
amra'ateen maybe? -
Salaam everyone,
Dear Eric Michael Torres, I had just finished visiting that site and reading that article If Nisa'a Meant Women. It is very good and the author has done a good job of pointing out the fallacies in the traditional understanding of Nisaa'. And I believe with Mushu's contribution the "Inheritance Understanding" has also been thoroughly attacked.
Anyone know the Arabic word for 'woman'? (the singular form, not plural)
The Arabic word for woman (singular) is 'Imraa'
With that being said, does anyone know of another Arabic word from the same root with a similar spelling which, I assume, should be the plural form?
Please give references from the god's Arabic reading.For this we need a passage in The Quran that is talking STRICTLY to or about women. But for centuries, the traditionalists had convinced the world that there are passages in The Quran talking strictly TO or ABOUT women and have made those very passages to be addressing women by Arbitrarily assigning the meaning of "women" to the Arabic word Nisaa'.
Regarding the word amra'atu (one woman) shouldn't the singular be the same word as the plural but with one, maybe two additional letters attached to it.
EXACTLY!!! Because that is exactly how the Arabic Language works!!
For example, the word muslimeen is the word muslim but with the two letters at the end.
Applying logic we get...
kafir is to kafireen
...in the same way as...
muslim is to muslimeen
...in the same way as...
amra'atu is to ??
amra'ateen maybe?You are on the right track. Amra'ateen would probably be dual in Spoken Arabic. In other words Amra'ateen would mean Two Women. The Quranic Arabic for two women would more properly be Amra'atayn. For plural (meaning 3 or more women), we have to really search THROUGHOUT the entire spectrum and history of anything to do with The Arabic Language. Some games were played and some smoke and mirrors were unleashed upon the unsuspecting crowd. They have worked very hard and long to pull it off so we have to work just as long and hard to expose how, where, when and why they did this.
It is difficult to guess the plural form of this word without knowing if it should be a sound plural or a broken plural. Conceivably, if it is a sound plural it could be "amra'aat". But if it is a broken plural (in which the changes occur internally) then that is impossible to guess. Broken Plurals seem to be utilized more than sound plurals in Arabic and broken plurals are pretty much impossible to predict and/or guess which is why when students of Arabic are learning to memorize nouns they would be better off memorizing the plural and the singular forms since it is way too difficult to guess what a plural form for a word would or should be.
But you are definitely on the right track. It's not just going to come to us. It is like a diamond in the rough. We have dig it up and then polish it off.
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Dear Noon Dhe plume,
Peace Eric --
If referring to above two women/females then nisa is used otherwise singular and dual ...
411 so if are Nis/females feminine plural noun above two (feminine)
412 and if is a man inherited kalla or Amra'atu a woman feminine noun
2823 and he found from besides them Amra'tayni two women feminine dual noun
With all due respect, I think this explanation is hanging on to a false definition of Nisaa' and indeed the present traditional understanding of this verse depends on this false definition. Once it has been determined that Nisaa' DOES NOT mean women (and in my opinion this thread as well as the link that Eric Michael Torres posted have determined just that), then we are forced to re-evaluate our understanding of ALL of the verses with the word Nisaa' in them and have been traditionally understood to be talking about "women". I believe your present understanding of 4/11 is one such verse.
I for one will not continue to try to make the "Nisaa' means women" understanding fit. I am not going to try to force a square into a circle.
We have come this far. For centuries it has been taught that The Arabic word salat means prayer. After thorough research of The Quran we discovered that this is not true. For centuries we have been taught that the Arabic word Zakaa' means charity or alms giving. After further research of The Quran, we discovered that this too is untrue. For centuries we have been taught to not question hadith and tradition. After thorough research of The Quran we have learned that we should not only question hadith and tradition, but reject them outright. For centuries we have been taught the messenger of The Quran was illiterate. After much research of the Quran and the words ummiyy and ummiyyeen we found out that is complete nonsense. There are literally loads and loads of more fresh discoveries that have been uncovered in just this last decade alone.
WHY STOP THERE???!! If the above understandings were discovered to be untrue then doesn't that means that we have been tricked and lied to and that we need to take a fresh new look at the Quran and it's words and concepts, including the word Nisaa'?! If we've been fooled once, then we've been fooled twice. Why question and challenge all of the things that we have come to grips with so far but insist to hang on to the TRADITIONAL definition of Nisaa' which was given to us by The Same People who fooled us into believing the other things that we have eventually questioned, challenged and ultimately rejecting?
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Peace Shirley,
I'm trying to find all occurrences of (a woman) and (two women).
(a woman)
412, 4128, 2723, 3350(two women)
2282Both words contain the letters so if there's another word with perhaps it will be the Arabic word for 'three or more women'.
Another possible method is to examine the relationship between the Arabic words for 'a man', 'two men' and 'two or more men' then try and find the same relationship between the female counterparts.By the way, I don't speak Arabic so what are 'broken plurals' and 'sound plurals'?