A Possible Oversight of 4:34???
-
Peace everyone -- good to be back with my original pseudo. )
I believe it is impossible for Nisaa' to mean wives either.
Use context apply logic to deduce the correct and best meaning which nisan always means female any age whereas rijlan a group with at least one male any age same as ikh'watan/brethren ? clearly derived from inheritance verses ?
411 directs you The God in your children to the male like share the two (feminine) so if are females above two (feminine) so for them two thirds what left the deceased and if was one so for her the half
4176 and if they are ikh'watan/brethren rijlan (i.e. males) and females so to the male like share the two (feminine) clarifies The God to you lest you stray and The God in every thing Knowing
-
O see 7840
Dear Mazhar,
I had told you that I would NOT discuss anything further with you if would not address the points I have made. I believe that your post quoted above is a sincere attempt at addressing at least ONE of my questions which is the only reason why I am responding. But after this, I will not respond to you any further and I'll tell you why.
When people discuss issues of theology/religion, politics and social issues (and many times "science" you're always going to have people who only wish to defend the status quo!!! For these people, their minds cannot fathom the possibility that what we have been taught and believed in for so long is actually all wrong and the result of CENTURIES of the status quo being adhered to due to official political decrees, the fear of repurcussion of the people in charge as well as the common people in society and myriad of other reasons. If I were to go any further into the reasons, I fear that some people will start calling me Conspiracy Theorist among other things.
But the main point I am trying to make with this explanation is that some people wish to ascertain the truth, while some people simply wish to win an argument/debate. I was never here to debate or argue, let alone win an argument. I only wish to strip the present status quo of the obvious flaws, use a process of elimination and find out what the words and passages of The Quran actually mean.
I have been going at it for years with people who immediately retort with the official and unquestioned party lines and status quo without even bothering to give at least a second thought at what has been produced to challenge the status quo. I find people like that to be ridiculous and NOT WORTH MY TIME AND EFFORTS!!!! If a person absolutely refuses to THINK for him or herself, ask QUESTIONS and STOP letting tradition to do their thinking for them, then I am merely spitting in the wind if I try to get them to think outside of the box and question what they presently believe. I never said to do an immediate turn around and an "about face". I am merely asking people to THINK!!!! If a person refuses to do that and wish to make something fit even if it insults our common sense and logic, then I have to wash my hands of such a person and move on. That is why I cannot discuss this any further with you.
As for 2102 and 7840, I am telling you THE SAME THING I HAVE TOLD BROTHER ABDUL HADI and that is I have come to believe that certain words in The Quran DO NOT mean what the people unquestionably accept them to mean. Brother Abdul Hadi had pointed out 2222 and 781 to which I responded that I do not believe 2222 is talking about the menstruation of women because I am firm (based upon using tasreef, questioning and using logic) that nisaa' does not mean women and therefore 2222 isn't talking about the menstruation of women. Based upon the same principles, I do not believe that 781 is talking about homosexuality. And FURTHER MORE...The Quran IS NOT a religious book. It has nothing to do with religion or religious rituals and beliefs.
Just as I have come to believe that 2222 and 781 are not talking about women's menstruation and homosexuals respectively, I simply DO NOT accept that the word Al Mara'u means singular man. For one thing, this is a definite noun with the definite article, so that alone I think smacks away the idea that this word means the singular man. It doesn't make any sense at all.
We have reached an age where there are many Of Us who are in the middle of the journey of re-examining The Quran and taking a fresh new look at many words and passages. This is what we do at Aastana. We have come to realize there were some criminals in The Quran's history that have done some really terrible things for the sake of political gain and putting these moronic shackles on The Quran was one of the smoothest (yet dirtiest) things they have done. We are still suffering and bickering to this very day because of what they have done centuries ago. But some of us have said NO MORE!! And we have decided to strip the floor or wipe the slate clean and start the examination of it all over from a more accurate and appropriate perspective.
2102 and 7840 are two such passages with misinterpretations that need to be re-examined. It amazes me that you can think the definite noun Al-Mara'u can be a singular term of man when we already have rajul and its plural form. If you do not wish to step outside of the box of tradition, then that's on you. If you ever decide that you are willing to do your own thinking, stop letting centuries of tradition do your thinking for you and at least QUESTION many of the things that we have been taught (especially when they insult our logic and common sense) then you and I can discuss further. Until then, all I can say to you is Peace. To you is your way and to me is my way.
I am going to say this one last time to you. Al Mara'u is a DEFINITE NOUN and so it cannot mean A Man. Secondly, we already have the word rajul for man, the word zawj for husband/male companion and the word Dhakarun to mean male gender. If you wish to continue to think that the definite noun Al-Mara'u means the singular man (even if it doesn't make any sense at all), then more power to you. And just so you know that I am not making this up on the spot to refute you, please see my response to Brother Abdul Hadi concerning 2222 and 781.
I am terminating my correspondence with you Mazhar. No hard feelings on my part and I send my greetings of Peace to you.
Abdul Hadi, OPF, Eikonoklastes. I am here and I am waiting if ever you decide to go further and EXPLORE the other many possibilities of some of these Quran passages.
Salaam.
-
2102 and 7840 are two such passages with misinterpretations that need to be re-examined. It amazes me that you can think the definite noun Al-Mara'u can be a singular term of man when we already have rajul and its plural form. If you do not wish to step outside of the box of tradition, then that's on you. If you ever decide that you are willing to do your own thinking, stop letting centuries of tradition do your thinking for you and at least QUESTION many of the things that we have been taught (especially when they insult our logic and common sense) then you and I can discuss further. Until then, all I can say to you is Peace. To you is your way and to me is my way.
I had also coloured red the pronoun referring back to singular definite noun and that pronoun is for singular, third person, masculine. Self perceived notions hamper seeing the so vivid realities.
-
Quote
The Arabic of 434 says Ar-rijaalu qawwaamuuna 'alaa 'Nisaaa'..it does NOT say...Az-Zauwj qawwaamuuna 'alaa Az-Zauwja.
Can you transcribe it in Arabic.Are these English words represent like this
I insist for response on this since it is perhaps the basic premise of original post of the thread.
-
Hello Shirley. This website agrees with you...
http//revolutionpsyche.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/if-nisa-meant-women/
One of the comments suggested that 'qawm' means 'established society' and 'nisa' means 'those who are developing'.
-
Hello Shirley. This website agrees with you...
http//revolutionpsyche.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/if-nisa-meant-women/
One of the comments suggested that 'qawm' means 'established society' and 'nisa' means 'those who are developing'.
Hello and Peace To You Mr. Eric Michael Torres,
Thanks for the info. I will be sure to check that website out at some point today.
Actually this is the point that I was trying to get to but I wanted to WALK through all of the options and alternatives of interpretation, ignite the Process of Elimination and eventually arrive at the only logical conclusion. But this is near impossible when people decide that they want to hang on to traditional understandings and refuse to question established "Official" teachings and the status quo.
Our friend Noon Dhe Plume also brought up what most believe are Inheritance Verses when he posted 411 and 4176. The point that I have been trying to make is that ALL of the Quranic verses believed to be talking about women when the Arabic word Nisaa' is mentioned need to be re looked at and re interpreted once we ascertain with absolute certainty that the word Nisaa' DOES NOT mean WOMEN!! And if Nisaa' does not mean women, then 411 and 4176 isn't talking about a share of inheritance for women or females....at least not in particular.
Anyway, the explanation that you have given from the website you have posted is very, very close to how I am presently understanding the meanings of Qawmun and Nisaa'un.
Salaam.
-
Being that I do not know Arabic, I have nothing of academic value to add to this post. I just wanted to show my appreciation for it. Peace all.
-
Anyone know the Arabic word for 'woman'? (the singular form, not plural)
With that being said, does anyone know of another Arabic word from the same root with a similar spelling which, I assume, should be the plural form?
Please give references from the god's Arabic reading. -
Anyone know the Arabic word for 'woman'? (the singular form, not plural)
With that being said, does anyone know of another Arabic word from the same root with a similar spelling which, I assume, should be the plural form?
Please give references from the god's Arabic reading.Peace Eric --
If referring to above two women/females then nisa is used otherwise singular and dual ...
411 so if are Nis/females feminine plural noun above two (feminine)
412 and if is a man inherited kalla or Amra'atu a woman feminine noun
2823 and he found from besides them Amra'tayni two women feminine dual noun
-
Hey Shirley, the following site...
http//www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/md/read/id/314123119165942
...is similar to what I mentioned before...
http//revolutionpsyche.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/if-nisa-meant-women/Regarding the word amra'atu (one woman) shouldn't the singular be the same word as the plural but with one, maybe two additional letters attached to it.
For example, the word muslimeen is the word muslim but with the two letters at the end.Applying logic we get...
kafir is to kafireen
...in the same way as...
muslim is to muslimeen
...in the same way as...
amra'atu is to ??
amra'ateen maybe? -
Salaam everyone,
Dear Eric Michael Torres, I had just finished visiting that site and reading that article If Nisa'a Meant Women. It is very good and the author has done a good job of pointing out the fallacies in the traditional understanding of Nisaa'. And I believe with Mushu's contribution the "Inheritance Understanding" has also been thoroughly attacked.
Anyone know the Arabic word for 'woman'? (the singular form, not plural)
The Arabic word for woman (singular) is 'Imraa'
With that being said, does anyone know of another Arabic word from the same root with a similar spelling which, I assume, should be the plural form?
Please give references from the god's Arabic reading.For this we need a passage in The Quran that is talking STRICTLY to or about women. But for centuries, the traditionalists had convinced the world that there are passages in The Quran talking strictly TO or ABOUT women and have made those very passages to be addressing women by Arbitrarily assigning the meaning of "women" to the Arabic word Nisaa'.
Regarding the word amra'atu (one woman) shouldn't the singular be the same word as the plural but with one, maybe two additional letters attached to it.
EXACTLY!!! Because that is exactly how the Arabic Language works!!
For example, the word muslimeen is the word muslim but with the two letters at the end.
Applying logic we get...
kafir is to kafireen
...in the same way as...
muslim is to muslimeen
...in the same way as...
amra'atu is to ??
amra'ateen maybe?You are on the right track. Amra'ateen would probably be dual in Spoken Arabic. In other words Amra'ateen would mean Two Women. The Quranic Arabic for two women would more properly be Amra'atayn. For plural (meaning 3 or more women), we have to really search THROUGHOUT the entire spectrum and history of anything to do with The Arabic Language. Some games were played and some smoke and mirrors were unleashed upon the unsuspecting crowd. They have worked very hard and long to pull it off so we have to work just as long and hard to expose how, where, when and why they did this.
It is difficult to guess the plural form of this word without knowing if it should be a sound plural or a broken plural. Conceivably, if it is a sound plural it could be "amra'aat". But if it is a broken plural (in which the changes occur internally) then that is impossible to guess. Broken Plurals seem to be utilized more than sound plurals in Arabic and broken plurals are pretty much impossible to predict and/or guess which is why when students of Arabic are learning to memorize nouns they would be better off memorizing the plural and the singular forms since it is way too difficult to guess what a plural form for a word would or should be.
But you are definitely on the right track. It's not just going to come to us. It is like a diamond in the rough. We have dig it up and then polish it off.
-
Dear Noon Dhe plume,
Peace Eric --
If referring to above two women/females then nisa is used otherwise singular and dual ...
411 so if are Nis/females feminine plural noun above two (feminine)
412 and if is a man inherited kalla or Amra'atu a woman feminine noun
2823 and he found from besides them Amra'tayni two women feminine dual noun
With all due respect, I think this explanation is hanging on to a false definition of Nisaa' and indeed the present traditional understanding of this verse depends on this false definition. Once it has been determined that Nisaa' DOES NOT mean women (and in my opinion this thread as well as the link that Eric Michael Torres posted have determined just that), then we are forced to re-evaluate our understanding of ALL of the verses with the word Nisaa' in them and have been traditionally understood to be talking about "women". I believe your present understanding of 4/11 is one such verse.
I for one will not continue to try to make the "Nisaa' means women" understanding fit. I am not going to try to force a square into a circle.
We have come this far. For centuries it has been taught that The Arabic word salat means prayer. After thorough research of The Quran we discovered that this is not true. For centuries we have been taught that the Arabic word Zakaa' means charity or alms giving. After further research of The Quran, we discovered that this too is untrue. For centuries we have been taught to not question hadith and tradition. After thorough research of The Quran we have learned that we should not only question hadith and tradition, but reject them outright. For centuries we have been taught the messenger of The Quran was illiterate. After much research of the Quran and the words ummiyy and ummiyyeen we found out that is complete nonsense. There are literally loads and loads of more fresh discoveries that have been uncovered in just this last decade alone.
WHY STOP THERE???!! If the above understandings were discovered to be untrue then doesn't that means that we have been tricked and lied to and that we need to take a fresh new look at the Quran and it's words and concepts, including the word Nisaa'?! If we've been fooled once, then we've been fooled twice. Why question and challenge all of the things that we have come to grips with so far but insist to hang on to the TRADITIONAL definition of Nisaa' which was given to us by The Same People who fooled us into believing the other things that we have eventually questioned, challenged and ultimately rejecting?
-
Peace Shirley,
I'm trying to find all occurrences of (a woman) and (two women).
(a woman)
412, 4128, 2723, 3350(two women)
2282Both words contain the letters so if there's another word with perhaps it will be the Arabic word for 'three or more women'.
Another possible method is to examine the relationship between the Arabic words for 'a man', 'two men' and 'two or more men' then try and find the same relationship between the female counterparts.By the way, I don't speak Arabic so what are 'broken plurals' and 'sound plurals'?
-
Dear Noon Dhe plume,
With all due respect, I think this explanation is hanging on to a false definition of Nisaa' and indeed the present traditional understanding of this verse depends on this false definition. Once it has been determined that Nisaa' DOES NOT mean women (and in my opinion this thread as well as the link that Eric Michael Torres posted have determined just that), then we are forced to re-evaluate our understanding of ALL of the verses with the word Nisaa' in them and have been traditionally understood to be talking about "women". I believe your present understanding of 4/11 is one such verse.
I for one will not continue to try to make the "Nisaa' means women" understanding fit. I am not going to try to force a square into a circle.
We have come this far. For centuries it has been taught that The Arabic word salat means prayer. After thorough research of The Quran we discovered that this is not true. For centuries we have been taught that the Arabic word Zakaa' means charity or alms giving. After further research of The Quran, we discovered that this too is untrue. For centuries we have been taught to not question hadith and tradition. After thorough research of The Quran we have learned that we should not only question hadith and tradition, but reject them outright. For centuries we have been taught the messenger of The Quran was illiterate. After much research of the Quran and the words ummiyy and ummiyyeen we found out that is complete nonsense. There are literally loads and loads of more fresh discoveries that have been uncovered in just this last decade alone.
WHY STOP THERE???!! If the above understandings were discovered to be untrue then doesn't that means that we have been tricked and lied to and that we need to take a fresh new look at the Quran and it's words and concepts, including the word Nisaa'?! If we've been fooled once, then we've been fooled twice. Why question and challenge all of the things that we have come to grips with so far but insist to hang on to the TRADITIONAL definition of Nisaa' which was given to us by The Same People who fooled us into believing the other things that we have eventually questioned, challenged and ultimately rejecting?
Dear Shirley -- most assuredly I've studied this thoroughly, actually spent three years on three verses. )
The link that was posted earlier was illogical, poor analysis and mostly conjecture. Yes traditionalists are clueless on a lot of things as are the modernists wrong on many things with most all translations extremely poor, sloppy, inconsistent, filled with bias spin to support a particular view without careful cross examination for contradictions and consideration for context which is key and reason I'm doing my own translation.
I've referenced inheritance verses since they teach logic, define terms, and give a sense for how Qur'an explains itself along with precise gender definitions. All one needs to do is go through the exercise to distribute the children's and siblings shares to understand the basics. Here are verses for reference...
47 to the men a share from what left the deceased the parents and the close relatives and to the females a share from what left the deceased the parents and the close relatives from what small from it or large portion carry out
48 and when comes the division those the relatives and the orphans and the poor so provide them from it and speak to them a saying nice
411 directs you The God in your children to the male like share the two (feminine) so if are females above two (feminine) so for them two thirds what left the deceased and if she was one so for her the half and for their parents to each one from them the sixth from what left the deceased if is to person an offspring so if not is to person an offspring and heirs person?s parents so to his mother the third so if is to person siblings so to his mother the sixth from after a will have made in it or judgment your parents and your children not you know which of them closer to you benefit obligation from The God indeed The God is Knowing Wise
412 and for you half what left your spouses if not is for them an offspring so if is for them an offspring so for you the fourth from what they left from after a will they made in it or judgment and for them the fourth from what you left if not is to you an offspring so if is to you an offspring so for them the eight from what you left from after a will you made in it or judgment and if is a man inherited spouseless fatherless or woman and has a brother or sister so for each one from them the sixth so if they have more from that so they partners in the third from after a will is recommended in it or judgment not harmful a will from The God and The God Knowing Forebearing
4176 they seek your ruling say The God gives you a ruling in the kalala (spousless and fatherless) if a person died is not to that person an offspring and has sister so for her half what left and he inherits her if not is to her an offspring so if were two (feminine) so to them the two thirds from what left and if they have ikh'watan/siblings males and females so to the male like share the two (feminine) clarifies The God to you lest you stray and The God in every thing Knowing
rijl/men and ikh'watan/brethren at least 1 male with any number of females
the kalala (spousless and fatherless) difference childless 4176 and with child 412
nis are females at any age since children and siblings span across all age groups
is an adult woman which can refer to a wife, girlfriend, or daughter; an example...6611 shows The God example to those who believe woman Pharaoh when she said Lord build to me near You a house in the garden and save me from Pharaoh and his work and save me from al-qawmi/the people the wrongdoers
al-qawmi/the people or nation in above context or tribe/clan/males when addressing patriarchal societies like in many cultures across the globe including my own which I've had a relative draw up a family tree that only included male members going back to a prominent great, great, grandfather -- again context is key.
Here feminine plural nis'watun which ties later to women being questioned in 1251 ....
1230 and said women in the city woman the mighty seeking to seduce her youth about/from himself has infactuated her love indeed surely see her in error clear
1251 said what your affair ( feminine plural) when you sought to seduce (feminine plural) Yusuf/Joseph about/from himself?
Them Egyptian women were sure pretty aggressive at the time; one had to watch their shirt ... ;D
peace
-
Dear Noon dhe plume,
You said that you have spent three years on the study of the so-called inheritance verses. I'm at a loss how you missed that the word does not mean deceased person. In fact, the root word DaRaKa has absolutely nothing to do with death. It is to attain or overtake a person or thing. And before you say it means the person is overtaken by death then I would ask why this verse doesn't clearly say that the people in question were overtaken by MAUT? I believe that alone shatters the foundation of the traditional understanding of these verses.
Also the word doesn't mean those. The word for those (as in those people) is ula'ika. basically means the same as Ahl meaning a people who are possessors of something in particular. The incorrect translation of these words contribute to the overall misunderstanding of these verses and the correct translation/definition of these words (along with the correct translation of Nisaa' would force you to re evaluate the present traditional understanding of these verses.
So I still see you as forcing these verses to be talking about the distribution of inheritance and that the word Nisaa' means women. Even though it is starting to become more and more clear that the word Nisaa' simply does not mean women.
You said that the link E.M. Torres provided was illogical and based on conjecture, but did not point out where and how it is illogical and conjecture based. It is what it is and the Quran says what it says. The author of the article examined key Arabic words in the relevant verses. Nothing conjectural or illogical about that.
But I know when a person is not interested in letting go of a pre conceived notion. I am not one for convincing. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Dear Eric Michael Torres,
A sound plural is when you add simply a certain suffix to the singular word to make it plural. That is what you have posted earlier...sound plurals. Muslim gets the suffix een...Muslimeen. Muslima gets the suffix (or ending) aat...Muslimaat. Mujahid also gets een...Mujahideen. Those are examples of sound plurals.
Broken plurals take shape when the singular word itself is changed internally to make the plural. For example the word for boy is walad. The plural is Awlaad. Masjid becomes Masaajid. Kitab becomes kutub, etc. The core letters of the singular are reshaped to make the plural. This is called broken plural due to the "breaking" of the singular word itself to make the plural.
I hope that this was of some help.
-
Dear Noon dhe plume,
You said that you have spent three years on the study of the so-called inheritance verses. I'm at a loss how you missed that the word does not mean deceased person.
Dear Shirley -- you did not see what "left" (i.e. the deceased]?
The deceased part is there for clarification, so I missed the parentheses on a few.
47 to the men a share from what left the deceased the parents and the close relatives and to the females a share from what left the deceased the parents and the close relatives from what small from it or large portion carry out
48 and when comes the division those the relatives and the orphans and the poor so provide them from it and speak to them a saying nice
411 directs you The God in your children to the male like share the two (feminine) so if are females above two (feminine) so for them two thirds what left the deceased and if she was one so for her the half and for their parents to each one from them the sixth from what left the deceased if is to person an offspring so if not is to person an offspring and heirs person?s parents so to his mother the third so if is to person siblings so to his mother the sixth from after a will have made in it or judgment your parents and your children not you know which of them closer to you benefit obligation from The God indeed The God is Knowing Wise
412 and for you half what left your spouses if not is for them an offspring so if is for them an offspring so for you the fourth from what they left from after a will they made in it or judgment and for them the fourth from what you left if not is to you an offspring so if is to you an offspring so for them the eight from what you left from after a will you made in it or judgment and if is a man inherited spouseless fatherless or woman and has a brother or sister so for each one from them the sixth so if they have more from that so they partners in the third from after a will is recommended in it or judgment not harmful a will from The God and The God Knowing Forebearing
4176 they seek your ruling say The God gives you a ruling in the kalala (spousless and fatherless) if a person died is not to that person an offspring and has sister so for her half what left and he inherits her if not is to her an offspring so if were two (feminine) so to them the two thirds from what left and if they have ikh'watan/siblings males and females so to the male like share the two (feminine) clarifies The God to you lest you stray and The God in every thing Knowing
Also the word doesn't mean those.
We're going off topic of discussion; perhaps translate closest meaning?
2269 and none remembers only those the understanding
So I still see you as forcing these verses to be talking about the distribution of inheritance and that the word Nisaa' means women. Even though it is starting to become more and more clear that the word Nisaa' simply does not mean women.
Not forcing a thing; simply tell how distribute shares "left" by the deceased with 3 daughters for example? Feel free to pick any other relative and use any definition of nisa other than females you like.
You said that the link E.M. Torres provided was illogical and based on conjecture, but did not point out where and how it is illogical and conjecture based. It is what it is and the Quran says what it says. The author of the article examined key Arabic words in the relevant verses. Nothing conjectural or illogical about that.
Why waste time; besides the author is a member and welcome to stop by distribute the shares above.
But I know when a person is not interested in letting go of a pre conceived notion. I am not one for convincing. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I assuredly am open minded and happy to see your distributions above and also explain how anyone else other than women/females i.e. nisa can bear children, have menstrual cycles, and menopause.
-
Hi all,
I am in the same position as "path of light" in that I do not know any arabic and am therefore no real value to this discussion - just want to say that it's a very interesting one.
However, because I don't want to see this being buried under page upon page of debate, I'd like to ask Shirley and anyone else this if we do refuse that traditional view of Nisaa meaning women then what could it mean? And how would this effect our interpretation of the different verses of the Qur'an. Basically, I think it might be more helpful if we take this theory to its logical conclusion and see how it fits with the rest of the Qur'an. I for one would be very interested in the outcome of a fresh analysis.
Sorry again that I have little to add. Keep plugging away!
Cheers,
Ty