WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you,

The word "jinn" comes from the same root as the word "majnun".

Majnun is used to call someone CRAZY (mental state). They say this person is controlled by "jinn" in tradition.

So why is it hard to understand jinn as THOUGHTS?

Janna (the garden) is also fromthe same root, is not Janna a CONDITION which starts here on earth?

[unknownuser]

Peace Kyle,

Not at all unfair and unjust. It is simply a matter of undersanding. A jungle has all kinds of animals, not just lions. My command was generalized to all animals, although pointed to lions. See below for another demonstration underlined, if you can contemplate.

Ridiculous! If I say "All lions get on the ground", how is that command to ALL ANIMALS. That is nonsense.

Ridiculous and nonsense as it may sound, emphasis lies on the word 'JUNGLE' relevant to lions. Scenario already explained.

The first word of the second Surah means "THAT". Must I disagree and argue about it to mean that "THAT" refers to something other than the Quran. Again, its a matter of simple understanding, although not easy when it comes to frivilous debates.

Every creature/animal in the jungle heard my command, thus all animals submitted including the lions, except the ladybug, she was of an insect.

If you were in a co ed facility, and you heard soemone say "All men report to the front", do you assume the caller means women too? I mean this converstaion is really getting foolish.

That depends. Man, simply means a human, a person. And it could also mean a male. Men is plural. If men and animals were together, and the men were ordered to seperate out, then yes, it would definitely include women. That goes for the animals to seperate out as well, even though the animals were not ordered to. Plain and simple, nothing foolish about. It is simply a matter of understanding.

I will post the verses with "jinn" in them to show my understanding of jinn being THOUGHTS (that which is covered), not some species of ghosts.

Looking forward to. "species of ghosts", now that's befuddling roll

Majnun is used to call someone CRAZY (mental state). They say this person is controlled by "jinn" in tradition.

That's traditonal superstition. If a person can control his/her THOUGHTS (JINN), he/she can never be in a "mental state", ie. being CRAZY, now would they?

So why is it hard to understand jinn as THOUGHTS?

Not at all. On the contrary, it is getting difficult for you to understand that jinns are CREATURES. If Iblis was an angel, he didn't become or was of THOUGHTS. Sounds silly. Besides, THOUGHTS don't have minds, eyes and ears, CREATURES DO. "THOUGHTS" are acts or processes of reflection, power of reasoning, meditation, mental engrossment. JINN does not mean THOUGHT or BEHAVIOUR, but refers to their condition of being in that state or process, just like humans. One of the reasons why jinns are never mentioned to be within humans (as thoughts) but seperately, yet side by side. As per the Quran, there are good and bad jinns and there are good and bad humans, both of which have thoughts (good or bad). Clear as crystal.

Here's a jinn ---> twisted
Here's a thought ---> idea

[Wakas]

Edited to include QD info

Jiim-Nun-Nun = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness, become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden, spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, serpent, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folk.

An interesting example is 'ajinnah' (noun) in 5332.

[unknownuser]

From Lane

Jiim-Nun-Nun = ,
spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses, become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon (CREATURES)
--->
veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness, become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage (THOUGHTS/BEHAVIOUR)

Peace and thanks Wakas.

[Tay]

Peace Kyle,

I disagree that it is irrelevant, because we have to combat falsehood. The idea that "jinn" is some creature is detrimental to our brothers and sisters.

I see your point. My apologies. I did not mean to belittle the dialogue, only redirect it.

These symbolic stories are suppossed to teach us that, but others are not understanding the basics of this story, so it is the job of those who know not to conceal the truth.

Gotcha! Here's my two cents

Iblis disobeyed because Iblis was designed to disobey. Iblis=disobey. I think 2 things must be considered in understanding the nature of the beast.

One no other entity, besides mankind and Iblis, is noted as disobeying.
Two no mention is made about the existence of Iblis prior to mankind's creation.

This, to me, intimately ties Iblis to mankind.

Peace,
Tay

[unknownuser]

PEACE TO ALL

Concerning the Jinn and their being human beings, I think dhul, hit it right on the head

2533 And they shall not bring to you any question/argument, but We have brought to you the truth and best the explanation.

75.19 Again on Us is the explaining of it.

I like to start out with these two ayats, just to put into people's mind that, Al-Qur'an, is not a book on Philosophical Relativism, that is, it decides the questions/arguements which are brought to it.

On the recent thread...WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...it became abundantly clear that Iblis, was not one of the malaika. Now, the question becomes, what was he? Was he a fire creature, a homo sapien sapien, a hot wind, an extraterrestrial being, what? It is my opinion that Iblis, was a homo sapien sapien, as were all of the JINN.

The Jinn are defined in various lexicons as hidden spirits, creatures of fire, satans and the such, however, they are also defined as powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah. Now, all of these defintions can be found in the lexicons, however, in the context of Al-Qur'an, which of them squares, jibes with, appropriately juxtaposes with, makes sense, within the context of how Allah is using JINN in Al-Qur'an? Now, I consider the definition of "powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah", to be the proper use of JINN, hence, for me, that is "remaining inside of Al-Qur'an/keeping with the context of Al-Qur'an". The following ayats appear to support my assertion on this.

The following ayats describe both Jinn and men as people .

1815 Haolai qawmuna ittakhathoo min doonihi alihatan lawla yatoona AAalayhim bisultanin bayyinin faman athlamu mimmani iftara AAala Allahi kathiban

1815 "These our people have taken for worship gods other than Him why do they not bring forward an authority clear (and convincing) for what they do? Who doth more wrong than such as invent a falsehood against Allah.

4630. Qaloo ya qawmana inna samiAAna kitaban onzila min baAAdi moosa musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi yahdee ila alhaqqi wa-ila tareeqin mustaqeemin

4631. They said, "O our people! We have heard a Book revealed after Moses, confirming what came before it it guides to the Truth and to a Straight Path.

721 Say It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened. They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!

726 'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.

726 Waannahu kana rijalun mina alinsi yaAAoothoona birijalin mina aljinni fazadoohum rahaqan

7211. 'There are among us some that are righteous, and some the contrary we follow divergent paths.

24 37 Rijalun la tulheehim tijaratun wala bayAAun AAan thikri Allahi waiqami alssalati waeetai alzzakati yakhafoona yawman tataqallabu feehi alquloobu waalabsaru

2437 By men whom neither traffic nor merchandise can divert from the Remembrance of Allah, nor from regular Prayer, nor from the practice of regular Charity Their (only) fear is for the Day when hearts and eyes will be transformed (in a world wholly new),-

9108 La taqum feehi abadan lamasjidun ossisa AAala alttaqwa min awwali yawmin ahaqqu an taqooma feehi feehi rijalun yuhibboona an yatatahharoo waAllahu yuhibbu almuttahhireena

9108 Never stand thou forth therein. There is a mosque whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety; it is more worthy of the standing forth (for prayer) therein. In it are men who love to be purified; and Allah loveth those who make themselves pure.

4631 Ya qawmana ajeeboo daAAiya Allahi waaminoo bihi yaghfir lakum min thunoobikum wayujirkum min AAathabin aleemin

4631 O people of our nation, embrace the invitation of the one who is inviting towards All?h and bring Faith in him, All?h will forgive you your sins and will save you from painful torment?.

511 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo othkuroo niAAmata Allahi AAalaykum ith hamma qawmun an yabsutoo ilaykum aydiyahum fakaffa aydiyahum AAankum waittaqoo Allaha waAAala Allahi falyatawakkali almuminoona

511 O ye who believe! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you when certain men formed the design to stretch out their hands against you, but ((Allah)) held back their hands from you so fear Allah. And on Allah let believers put (all) their trust.

Main Entry OFFSPRING the progeny of an animal or plant 1850

Main Entry PROGENY DESCENDANTS, CHILDREN b offspring of animals or plants a body of followers, disciples, or successors

Main Entry CHILD/CHILDREN an unborn or recently born person a young person especially between infancy and youth b a son or daughter of human parents b DESCENDANT

61. Behold! We said to the angels "Bow down unto Adam" They bowed down except Iblis He said, "Shall I bow down to one whom Thou didst create from clay?"

62. He said "Seest Thou? this is the one whom Thou hast honoured above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway - all but a few!"

63. ((Allah)) said "Go thy way; if any of them follow thee, verily Hell will be the recompense of you (all)- an ample recompense.

64. "Lead to destruction those whom thou canst among them, with thy (seductive) voice; make assaults on them with thy cavalry and thy infantry; mutually share with them wealth and children; and make promises to them." But Satan promises them nothing but deceit.

2355 Do they think that by what We aid them with of wealth and children.

Main Entry ID the one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory that is completely unconscious and is the source of psychic energy derived from instinctual needs and drives --

2543 Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?

Main Entry PASSION emotion <his ruling passion is greed> (2) plural the emotions as distinguished from reason b intense, driving, or overmastering feeling or conviction c an outbreak of anger means intense emotion compelling action applies to an emotion that is deeply stirring or ungovernable .

Main Entry FIRE the phenomenon of combustion manifested in light, flame, and heat burning passion ARDOR (2) liveliness of imagination INSPIRATION.

For me, then, "fire free of smoke", is a metaphor for undisciplined human passion. Was Iblis not wroth with Allah and Adam? Did he not check/discipline himself emotionally?

Given the above evidence, I think I've made the case that, Iblis, was a homo sapien sapien. We definitely know that Iblis, doesn't fit the description of an angel, but, does appear to be a homo sapien sapien in every respect.

Sounds good to me.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Danish,

Ridiculous and nonsense as it may sound, emphasis lies on the word 'JUNGLE' relevant to lions. Scenario already explained.

So if you walk into a pet store and say "can you show me all the dogs" , would you expect to be shown cats?

The first word of the second Surah means "THAT". Must I disagree and argue about it to mean that "THAT" refers to something other than the Quran.

When it says "Al Kitaab", not "Al Quraan", then YES, you might want to check your understanding. Al Kitaab is the life we are given, there are all kinds of signs in the creation of this life for those who take it serious, not just as amusement.

Again, its a matter of simple understanding, although not easy when it comes to frivilous debates.

debating(hajj) clears many things up. D

Idolfree1
If you were in a co ed facility, and you heard soemone say "All men report to the front", do you assume the caller means women too? I mean this converstaion is really getting foolish.

That depends. Man, simply means a human, a person. And it could also mean a male. Men is plural. If men and animals were together, and the men were ordered to seperate out, then yes, it would definitely include women. That goes for the animals to seperate out as well, even though the animals were not ordered to. Plain and simple, nothing foolish about. It is simply a matter of understanding.

Sigh! This is unbelieveable.

Lets try this, if the person said "all humans with penises come to the front", will you come to the front?

Quote
Majnun is used to call someone CRAZY (mental state). They say this person is controlled by "jinn" in tradition.

That's traditonal superstition. If a person can control his/her THOUGHTS (JINN), he/she can never be in a "mental state", ie. being CRAZY, now would they?

You have misunderstood, one who CANNOT control thier thoughts goes crazy (majnun). We have the ability to control them, but many fail to do so.

Quote
So why is it hard to understand jinn as THOUGHTS?

Not at all. On the contrary, it is getting difficult for you to understand that jinns are CREATURES.

Have you seen one?

If Iblis was an angel, he didn't become or was of THOUGHTS. Sounds silly.

I guess it would sound silly since you did not translate "jinn" as covered. Thoughts are covered from sight, they can be righteous thoughts which are controlled (malaika), or they can be desperate thoughts that rebel (shayteen), but ALL THOUGHTS are covered(jinn) from sight.

Besides, THOUGHTS don't have minds, eyes and ears, CREATURES DO.

I guess you never talk thigs over in your mind, nor visualize anything.

"THOUGHTS" are acts or processes of reflection, power of reasoning, meditation, mental engrossment. JINN does not mean THOUGHT or BEHAVIOUR, but refers to their condition of being in that state or process, just like humans.

I have no idea what you just said.

One of the reasons why jinns are never mentioned to be within humans (as thoughts) but seperately, yet side by side. As per the Quran, there are good and bad jinns and there are good and bad humans, both of which have thoughts (good or bad). Clear as crystal.

WHy are "jinn" not fuel for the fire? You did say they have thier own "garden" right?

(224) So if you do not make/do and you will never make/do, so fear the fire, that/which its fuel (is) the people and the stones, (it) was/is prepared to the disbelievers

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you PB,

On the recent thread...WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...it became abundantly clear that Iblis, was not one of the malaika.

Stop with the mind games. They ALL did EXCEPT iblis. Please enroll in the closest school to learn about EXCEPTIONS.

Now, the question becomes, what was he? Was he a fire creature, a homo sapien sapien, a hot wind, an extraterrestrial being, what? It is my opinion that Iblis, was a homo sapien sapien, as were all of the JINN.

Try translating ALL of the Arabic. The word "jinn" implies a covering, hiding something from sight as seen here.

(676) Falamma janna AAalayhi allaylu...
So when the night covered him...

The Jinn are defined in various lexicons as hidden spirits, creatures of fire, satans and the such, however, they are also defined as powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah. Now, all of these defintions can be found in the lexicons, however, in the context of Al-Qur'an, which of them squares, jibes with, appropriately juxtaposes with, makes sense, within the context of how Allah is using JINN in Al-Qur'an?

The covered ones fit perfectly with thoughts. Some are righteous and some are not.

Now, I consider the definition of "powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah", to be the proper use of JINN, hence, for me, that is "remaining inside of Al-Qur'an/keeping with the context of Al-Qur'an".

How can THAT be the proper use when we are told there are RIGHTEOUS JINN, and there are Jinn who follow a different path?? Your understanding places ALL of the jinn in the same category of those who rebel, which is NOT in context of this reading(quran).

(7211) Y.Ali- 'There are among us some that are righteous, and some the contrary we follow divergent paths.

However, if we take the covered ones(jinn) to be thoughts in our minds, we can readily verify that humans have righteous thoughts and also have wicked thoughts.

The following ayats appear to support my assertion on this.

The following ayats describe both Jinn and men as people .

1815 Haolai qawmuna ittakhathoo min doonihi alihatan lawla yatoona AAalayhim bisultanin bayyinin faman athlamu mimmani iftara AAala Allahi kathiban

1815 "These our people have taken for worship gods other than Him why do they not bring forward an authority clear (and convincing) for what they do? Who doth more wrong than such as invent a falsehood against Allah.

What does 1815 have to do with "jinn"??

4630. Qaloo ya qawmana inna samiAAna kitaban onzila min baAAdi moosa musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi yahdee ila alhaqqi wa-ila tareeqin mustaqeemin

4631. They said, "O our people! We have heard a Book revealed after Moses, confirming what came before it it guides to the Truth and to a Straight Path.

This is the symbolism of the INNER CITY (madina). This is the symbolism that helps us to focus on the inner workings of the MIND. It is a SYMBOLISM, not literal. I am sure you have never seen any "jinn" sitting anywhere listening to anything. And again, the idea that jinn are humans who are out of control with passion does not fit the context of 7211.

721 Say It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened. They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!

Yes, inspired, NOT SHOWN, that is because it is part of the covered community within. The community of THOUGHTS that live in the city(medina). We must WARN this "mother" of cities!

726 'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.
726 Waannahu kana rijalun mina alinsi yaAAoothoona birijalin mina aljinni fazadoohum rahaqan

If jinn is homo sapien sapien, why does this verse diffentiate between jinn and mankind? We are to control our thoughts, not take shelter from them. We are to control our thoughts and make them work for us as the example of solomon shows us.

7211. 'There are among us some that are righteous, and some the contrary we follow divergent paths.

Correct

24 37 Rijalun la tulheehim tijaratun wala bayAAun AAan thikri Allahi waiqami alssalati waeetai alzzakati yakhafoona yawman tataqallabu feehi alquloobu waalabsaru

2437 By men whom neither traffic nor merchandise can divert from the Remembrance of Allah, nor from regular Prayer, nor from the practice of regular Charity Their (only) fear is for the Day when hearts and eyes will be transformed (in a world wholly new),-

What does this have to do with the covered (jinn)?

9108 La taqum feehi abadan lamasjidun ossisa AAala alttaqwa min awwali yawmin ahaqqu an taqooma feehi feehi rijalun yuhibboona an yatatahharoo waAllahu yuhibbu almuttahhireena

9108 Never stand thou forth therein. There is a mosque whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety; it is more worthy of the standing forth (for prayer) therein. In it are men who love to be purified; and Allah loveth those who make themselves pure.

What does this have to do with jinn?

4631 Ya qawmana ajeeboo daAAiya Allahi waaminoo bihi yaghfir lakum min thunoobikum wayujirkum min AAathabin aleemin

4631 O people of our nation, embrace the invitation of the one who is inviting towards All?h and bring Faith in him, All?h will forgive you your sins and will save you from painful torment?.

Do you realize that everthing that manifests outwardly starts inwardly? You must change what is in your MIND before the God changes your condition (1311). So you must first warn the "mother" of cities, which is WITHIN YOU!.

511 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo othkuroo niAAmata Allahi AAalaykum ith hamma qawmun an yabsutoo ilaykum aydiyahum fakaffa aydiyahum AAankum waittaqoo Allaha waAAala Allahi falyatawakkali almuminoona

511 O ye who believe! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you when certain men formed the design to stretch out their hands against you, but ((Allah)) held back their hands from you so fear Allah. And on Allah let believers put (all) their trust.

What does this have to do with jinn?

Main Entry OFFSPRING the progeny of an animal or plant 1850

Main Entry PROGENY DESCENDANTS, CHILDREN b offspring of animals or plants a body of followers, disciples, or successors

Main Entry CHILD/CHILDREN an unborn or recently born person a young person especially between infancy and youth b a son or daughter of human parents b DESCENDANT

??????? whats this about?????

61. Behold! We said to the angels "Bow down unto Adam" They bowed down except Iblis He said, "Shall I bow down to one whom Thou didst create from clay?"

Except who? I really cannot understand how you don't get this part.

1762. He said "Seest Thou? this is the one whom Thou hast honoured above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway - all but a few!"

Ohh, I see what the decendents/progenty was all about now. I guess my daughter is just a clay figure.

1763. ((Allah)) said "Go thy way; if any of them follow thee, verily Hell will be the recompense of you (all)- an ample recompense.

1764. "Lead to destruction those whom thou canst among them, with thy (seductive) voice; make assaults on them with thy cavalry and thy infantry; mutually share with them wealth and children; and make promises to them." But Satan promises them nothing but deceit.

2355 Do they think that by what We aid them with of wealth and children.

If you can sumbit to the metaphoric understanding, why do you stop there? Remember, jinn are BOTH good and bad, not just bad only.

Main Entry ID the one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory that is completely unconscious and is the source of psychic energy derived from instinctual needs and drives --

2543 Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?

You sure can't.

Main Entry PASSION emotion <his ruling passion is greed> (2) plural the emotions as distinguished from reason b intense, driving, or overmastering feeling or conviction c an outbreak of anger means intense emotion compelling action applies to an emotion that is deeply stirring or ungovernable .

Main Entry FIRE the phenomenon of combustion manifested in light, flame, and heat burning passion ARDOR (2) liveliness of imagination INSPIRATION.

For me, then, "fire free of smoke", is a metaphor for undisciplined human passion. Was Iblis not wroth with Allah and Adam? Did he not check/discipline himself emotionally?

What about the righteous jinn, are they smokeless fire also?

Given the above evidence, I think I've made the case that, Iblis, was a homo sapien sapien. We definitely know that Iblis, doesn't fit the description of an angel, but, does appear to be a homo sapien sapien in every respect.

Sounds good to me.

I hope you have understood your errors here.

[unknownuser]

Peace Idol

Stop with the mind games. They ALL did EXCEPT iblis. Please enroll in the closest school to learn about EXCEPTIONS.

For the last time now, Idol, it is a contradiction in terms to say "all" and then follow it up with "except". This is why in Sura 103, Allah, says of man that "he is in loss" and then follows it up with "except", however, Allah did not say..."all of man and then follow it up with "except".

1031 I swear by the time,

1032 Most surely man is in loss,

1033 Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.

Had, Allah said..."the angels bowed except Iblis, then you would have an arguement, because He doesn't say..."all" of the angels bowed. However, 1649-50 and 1850, would still preclude Iblis being of the malaika.

The covered ones fit perfectly with thoughts. Some are righteous and some are not.

Who, are the "covered ones"?! This is makes no sense.

DHUL Quote Now, I consider the definition of "powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah", to be the proper use of JINN, hence, for me, that is "remaining inside of Al-Qur'an/keeping with the context of Al-Qur'an".

How can THAT be the proper use when we are told there are RIGHTEOUS JINN, and there are Jinn who follow a different path?? Your understanding places ALL of the jinn in the same category of those who rebel, which is NOT in context of this reading(quran).

Please don't confuse your ideas with mine, thanks. Before a law was given to Jinn/humans, they still lived by an inherent moral code and some adhered to it and some did not. Are you saying the Jinn humans were born evil? For example, were all of the people of Muhammad, jahil/wild savages/unrighteous Jinns, before being given Al-Quran? No, some were moral and some were not.

7211 There are among us some that are righteous, and some the contrary we follow divergent paths.

However, if we take the covered ones(jinn) to be thoughts in our minds, we can readily verify that humans have righteous thoughts and also have wicked thoughts.

So, instead of referring to those electro-chemical reactions which take place in our brain as "thoughts", we should now call them Jinns, is this your position??

[unknownuser]

DHUL Quote The following ayats appear to support my assertion on this. The following ayats describe both Jinn and men as people .

1815 Haolai qawmuna ittakhathoo min doonihi alihatan lawla yatoona AAalayhim bisultanin bayyinin faman athlamu mimmani iftara AAala Allahi kathiban

1815 "These our people have taken for worship gods other than Him why do they not bring forward an authority clear (and convincing) for what they do? Who doth more wrong than such as invent a falsehood against Allah.

What does 1815 have to do with "jinn"??

Both Jinn and men are defined as qawmana--people, that is, humans.

Quote 4630. Qaloo ya qawmana inna samiAAna kitaban onzila min baAAdi moosa musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi yahdee ila alhaqqi wa-ila tareeqin mustaqeemin

4630. They said, "O our people! We have heard a Book revealed after Moses, confirming what came before it it guides to the Truth and to a Straight Path.

This is the symbolism of the INNER CITY (madina). This is the symbolism that helps us to focus on the inner workings of the MIND. It is a SYMBOLISM, not literal.

That remains to be seen, however, your assertion, at least at this point anyway, is nothing but conjecture and well you know it.

I am sure you have never seen any "jinn" sitting anywhere listening to anything. And again, the idea that jinn are humans who are out of control with passion does not fit the context of 7211.

I see Jinns all the time...those who don't live by Allah's laws. Tell you what, this Sunday, watch any football game and you will plenty of Jinns in the stadiums. By the way, I never said that Jinns were out of control of their passions I said they were given to their passions, meaning, the Jinn are less contrained relative to their passions due to lack of knowledge. Anyway, Allah, was telling the Messenger that, there were people , not "hidden thoughts", who were listening to what was being revealed.

Quote 721 Say It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened. They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!

Yes, inspired, NOT SHOWN, that is because it is part of the covered community within. The community of THOUGHTS that live in the city(medina). We must WARN this "mother" of cities!

This is just your own conjectural stuff, Idol. Al-Quran, does not support this view. The Messenger, the Ummi Prophet, was to come to the people, whom, Jesus did not...the Gentiles/Jinns.

There is a separate entity for the communitites of Jinns and that of men. Wow I am impress what an eye can do for me I can start quoting my arguments now. Gosh its amazing.

"The Gentiles are the Non-Jews, a name given by the Hebrews to all those who had not received the law of Moses...Hebrew Goyim signified the nations, the surrounding nations, foreigners, as opposed to Israel. A Goy was a foreign nation; hence a Gentile."

http//www.latter-rain.com/Israel/gentile.htm

"The jinn mentioned in the Holy Quran are certainly not the genii of fairy tales or what people usually imagine them to be. This word indicates "something hidden from view", and is used in the Quran with several different meanings referring to people or beings who are remote and not seen. It is applied to leaders, as contrasted with the ordinary public, and to people of foreign lands. For instance, the Quran says

"O assembly of jinn and men, did there not come to you messengers from among you. . ." (6131).

As messengers from God only came to human beings, the jinn here are also humans, and the address "jinn and men" is to the leaders and the ordinary people. Similarly, the Quran twice mentions some jinn as accepting its teachings (4629; 721). In the first case, a tribe of Jews is meant, and in the second some Christians are meant, being called jinn because of their remoteness".

http//www.aaiil.org/text/books/others/zahidaziz/introductionislam/appendixjinn.shtml

From the above two passages, it is interesting how similar in both sound and meaning Jinn and Gentile are. It appears then that, Jinn and men, while both being human beings, do represent different communities, relative, to whether or not they a Law from Allah. The Last Messenger, as spoken of in ayat 7157, appears to have been of the Jinn himself

7157. Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel. He enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and prohibits for them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were on them. So those who believe in him and honour him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him ? these are the successful.

"Some have, however, argued that ummi and "unlettered" should not be taken to mean illiterate, but rather scriptureless. This would mean that when Muhammad is described as ummi, it means that he is not one of the Jews (a people "of the Book") or simply that he is not a member of a group which has yet received a revelation from God - at least, not until he received the Qur'an. Such a translation seems more likely to many because Muhammad is also described as having been a merchant, and it is unlikely that a completely illiterate person could have functioned as a merchant".

http//atheism.about.com/library/glossary/islam/bldef_ummi.htm

Another interesting article on the JINN

http//tariq.bitshop.com/simplyIslam/jinn.htm

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you PB,

For the last time now, Idol, it is a contradiction in terms to say "all" and then follow it up with "except". This is why in Sura 103, Allah, says of man that "he is in loss" and then follows it up with "except", however, Allah did not say..."all of man and then follow it up with "except".

Once again, you contradict because the God says "There is NO god"

Then continues to say "EXCEPT the God".

So your reasoning does not hold up to the most important instruction. I am sure you see the connection between ALL and NONE.

Who, are the "covered ones"?! This is makes no sense.

al jinn. I have shown the verse where he darkness covered, it is up to you after that. Covered Ones might not be the perfect translation, but you should get the point.

Please don't confuse your ideas with mine, thanks. Before a law was given to Jinn/humans, they still lived by an inherent moral code and some adhered to it and some did not.

This "inherent" moral code is "al quran", before it is written down on paper.

Are you saying the Jinn humans were born evil?

You will have to ask me a question I can understand, I don't know what a "jinn human" is. Further, where did I imply that ANY BEING was born evil? I am SIMPLY and PLAINLY stating that the God tells us that jinn are both righteous and wicked.

For example, were all of the people of Muhammad, jahil/wild savages/unrighteous Jinns, before being given Al-Quran? No, some were moral and some were not.

What about after they recieved the message, did they all become saints, or did some continue to reject?

But we are moving away from my point, you are trying to convince us that jinn are wicked humans, you have been proven wrong by the verse that tells us that jinn are both righteous and wicked.

So, instead of referring to those electro-chemical reactions which take place in our brain as "thoughts", we should now call them Jinns, is this your position??

Yes, they are of the covered (jinn). Unless you have a jinn you would like to introduce us to D

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you PB,

I want to go over your final analysis so that no one will get confused in these long posts.

Your final analysis is that jinn are human beings who give into passions.

Yet this reading(quran) tells us that jinn are both righteous and wicked.

This CONTRADICTS your conclusion, why won't you stop following that path you are on when the proof is clear?

But what is even more bizarre is that your idea is not that far from mine, which makes me feel like it is you who is giving into your passions, not wanting to be shown wrong after such a long debate. I hope you will humble yourself to the messengers decision.

jinn is a description of the inner world, which is covered from sight. This is symbolic of your thoughts, which use emotions to manifest in the outer world. Energy in motion(EMOTION). One who gives into thier passions would be described as "iblis". The passions they give into would be a result of the shayteen(evil thoughts)

(214) And if they met/found those who believed, they said "We believed". And if they were alone/together with to their shayteen (rejecting thoughts) they said "That we are with you, but we are mocking ."

But then we have those who submit, they learn to control thier thoughts. Thoughts that are controled NEVER disobey. They are decribed as MALIAKA, which comes form the root word M-L-K(control).

Do you see how the reading confirms my understanding?

Jinn= covered
Malaika= controlled thoughts
shayteen= rejecting thoughts

Again, jinn CANNOT be humans who give into passions because the God says that some jinn are ALSO RIGHTEOUS.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you,

(37) ...None knows its interpretation except the God.

This is the SAME as saying "ALL do not know the interpretation EXCEPT the God...

Do you agree to this simple logical statement?

[unknownuser]

PEACE IDOL

I want to go over your final analysis so that no one will get confused in these long posts.

Your final analysis is that jinn are human beings who give into passions.

I said that, the jinn are human beings are given to their passions/were given no law. I corrected you on this yesterday and still you wish to re-word my statments, please don't.

Yet this reading(quran) tells us that jinn are both righteous and wicked.

Being given to one's passions, doesn't mean that one is necessarily evil. Are passions, inherently evil, is this your position, because it certainly isn't mine.

This CONTRADICTS your conclusion, why won't you stop following that path you are on when the proof is clear?

1. Clear proof?! LOL! Ayat 1850, from Allah Himself, tells humanity what Iblis was, yet, you want to re-work the ayat to mean, only Allah knows what, and then you tell me that you're offering clear proof?! Now, that is bizarre.

2. Clear proof?! Ayats 1649-50, Allah Himself, tells humanity that, the dabbatin and the malaika, share three common things

a. they represent distinct creations.

b. they have no pride.

c. they do as commanded and do not disobey.

yet, you want to assert that one of the malaika rebelled, despite the fact that, ayats 1649-50 and 3873 makes that absolutely impossible.

3. I pointed out to you that, the basic nature of the malaika is unknown, while the basic nature of Iblis is known, hence, if Iblis was of the malaika, then the malaika would have to have the same basic nature as Iblis -fire.

4. I pointed out to you that, "all" cannot be followed with "except", because that would be a contradiction in terms.

5. I, further, pointer out to you that, if the dabbatin and malaika could disobey, then, as with the Jinn/humans, they too are capable of evil. If they are capable of evil, then, where do we find any of the dabbatin or malaika, having had messengers sent to them? You have yet to resolve this question.

6. Is it rational to believe that, if Iblis was of the malaika that only he rebelled and no other malaika before or since him rebelled?

But what is even more bizarre is that your idea is not that far from mine, which makes me feel like it is you who is giving into your passions, not wanting to be shown wrong after such a long debate. I hope you will humble yourself to the messengers decision.

Your grandiosity is quite apparent, but that is always the attitude of those who cannot concretely back up what they assert. And, what is really bizarre is that, you've offered absolutely no proof for your assertions; your so-called evidence, is purely conjectural/extrapolative in nature, what are you talking about?!

jinn is a description of the inner world, which is covered from sight. This is symbolic of your thoughts, which use emotions to manifest in the outer world. Energy in motion(EMOTION). One who gives into thier passions would be described as "iblis". The passions they give into would be a result of the shayteen(evil thoughts)

Where do you derive this analysis from?

(214) And if they met/found those who believed, they said "We believed". And if they were alone/together with to their shayteen (rejecting thoughts) they said "That we are with you, but we are mocking ."

LOL! My God, and you call me bizarre. I don't mean to laugh but...that you cannot tell that ayat 214 is talking about people congregating in derogation of Allah and truth, is simply stunning. Your conclusion, as it appears to me is that, the individual in that ayat, is talking to himself/herself. You have to definitely re-phrase your above analysis.

But then we have those who submit, they learn to control thier thoughts. Thoughts that are controled NEVER disobey. They are decribed as MALIAKA, which comes form the root word M-L-K(control).

If a human being could control his/her thoughts to the extent which you are suggesting...then they would God. Allah says that, the malaika, do not disobey, however, humans do disobey. You are contradicting Allah and yourself all over the place.

Tell me, for consistency sake, how do the dabbatin figure into all of this, given that, they and the malaika, are mentioned together in ayats 1649-50? What "thoughts" do they represent?

Do you see how the reading confirms my understanding?

No, what I see from Al-Quran in regard to your analysis is the following

278 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

Main Entry ILLITERATE showing or marked by a lack of acquaintance with the fundamentals of a particular field of knowledge.

Main Entry CONJECTURE inference from defective or presumptive evidence a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork.

Main Entry EXTRAPOLATE to project, extend, or expand (known data or experience) into an area not known or experienced so as to arrive at a usually conjectural knowledge of the unknown area.

You entire analysis cannot be proven, Idol, precisely, because it is so conjectural/extrapolative...not to mention...full of holes.

Jinn= covered
Malaika= controlled thoughts
shayteen= rejecting thoughts

Again, jinn CANNOT be humans who give into passions because the God says that some jinn are ALSO RIGHTEOUS
.

Your analysis is flowery discourse and is devoid of decisiveness. The Jinn, it appears to me, are humans, who, are given to their passions and are without a law from Allah i.e the bulk of mankind.

Tell me, do you see any relationship between words Gentiles and Jinns? How about Jinntiles?

(37) ...None knows its interpretation except the God. This is the SAME as saying "ALL do not know the interpretation EXCEPT the God... Do you agree to this simple logical statement?

This poses an interesting problem. I will have to think about it. Anyway, why do you think Pickthall and Yusef Ali, translate these ayats differently concerning the word..."except"/"but"/"save"?

PICK-- 299 Verily We have revealed unto thee clear tokens, and only miscreants will disbelieve in them.

YUSEF-- 299 We have sent down to thee Manifest Signs (ayat); and none reject them but those who are perverse.

299 Walaqad anzalna ilayka ayatin bayyinatin wama yakfuru biha illa alfasiqoona

PICK--37 ...None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

YUSEF--37 ...but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

37 Huwa allathee anzala AAalayka alkitaba minhu ayatun muhkamatun hunna ommu alkitabi waokharu mutashabihatun faamma allatheena fee quloobihim zayghun fayattabiAAoona ma tashabaha minhu ibtighaa alfitnati waibtighaa ta/weelihi wama yaAAlamu ta/weelahu illa Allahu waalrrasikhoona fee alAAilmi yaqooloona amanna bihi kullun min AAindi rabbina wama yaththakkaru illa oloo al-albabi .

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you,

Quote
I want to go over your final analysis so that no one will get confused in these long posts.

Your final analysis is that jinn are human beings who give into passions.

I said that, the jinn are human beings are given to their passions/were given no law. I corrected you on this yesterday and still you wish to re-word my statments, please don't.

So the correction adds "they were given no law". Humans are born under 'LAW", everything we do is according to LAWS. Do you mean they were not given a messenger from the God? Who alive can claim no messenger has come to them? All people get messengers. There was a group of jinn who listened to the message, they went back to WARN thier people. Where do you read that all of "them" will confirm and submit? Because that would haveto be what happens if your definition has any chance at survival.

Quote
Yet this reading(quran) tells us that jinn are both righteous and wicked.

Being given to one's passions, doesn't mean that one is necessarily evil. Are passions, inherently evil, is this your position, because it certainly isn't mine.

Hmm, I wonder how you got that from my statement, yet you claim I am changing your words. Instead of "passions" let us use emotions. Emotions are ESSENTIAL , they are what take our thoughts and manifest them into reality. Energy in motion , or E-Motion. As the story of solomon shows us we use these emotions for our benefit, we do not GIVE INTO EMOTIONS. So yes, it is the WRONG PATH to give into your emotions, it is the right path to control your emotions and make them work for you.

Malaika= controlled thoughts
shayteen= being controlled by emotions, product of rejecting thoughts
jinn= covered (the community within which we cannot literally see)

Quote
This CONTRADICTS your conclusion, why won't you stop following that path you are on when the proof is clear?

1. Clear proof?! LOL! Ayat 1850, from Allah Himself, tells humanity what Iblis was, yet, you want to re-work the ayat to mean, only Allah knows what, and then you tell me that you're offering clear proof?! Now, that is bizarre.

Yes, 1850 tells us that "iblis" was covered from sight, just as darkness covers objects so you cant see them. The term for that is "jinn". All of the maliaka are under this category. The God commanded them all to prostrate. THEY did except 'iblis". Who is the THEY" that did prostrate, and who is the EXCEPTION. What simple math this is.

2. Clear proof?! Ayats 1649-50, Allah Himself, tells humanity that, the dabbatin and the malaika, share three common things

a. they represent distinct creations.

b. they have no pride.

c. they do as commanded and do not disobey.

yet, you want to assert that one of the malaika rebelled, despite the fact that, ayats 1649-50 and 3873 makes that absolutely impossible.

I think you might be giving into "passions" there by blinding you from the clear truth. You and I are also "dabbatin", yet we know that there are hmans who do NOT do as they are commmanded. Why do you reject such clear evidence. You whole position is based on clear conjecture and is rigourously rejected by this reading(quran).

3. I pointed out to you that, the basic nature of the malaika is unknown, while the basic nature of Iblis is known, hence, if Iblis was of the malaika, then the malaika would have to have the same basic nature as Iblis -fire.

Excuse me one second, I have to go add some water to my "clay" fingers so I can continue typing.

4. I pointed out to you that, "all" cannot be followed with "except", because that would be a contradiction in terms.

There is NO god EXCEPT the God.

5. I, further, pointer out to you that, if the dabbatin and malaika could disobey, then, as with the Jinn/humans, they too are capable of evil. If they are capable of evil, then, where do we find any of the dabbatin or malaika, having had messengers sent to them? You have yet to resolve this question.

Which "dabbatin" or "malaika" have you sat down and interviewed with to be able to say this? This is ridiculous.

6. Is it rational to believe that, if Iblis was of the malaika that only he rebelled and no other malaika before or since him rebelled?

If you take the word "iblis" to be the title of a single PERSON, then I can see your dilemma, but when you understand the desription "iblis" as one of desperation who acts based on emotion(shayteen), then you can see that there are MILLIONS of "iblees" all over this world. Just as Adam is not a single person but a concept of ALL MANKIND, so is "iblees". Or did you think Iblis was some Human who did not get on the ground in front of some human named Adam?

Quote
But what is even more bizarre is that your idea is not that far from mine, which makes me feel like it is you who is giving into your passions, not wanting to be shown wrong after such a long debate. I hope you will humble yourself to the messengers decision.

Your grandiosity is quite apparent, but that is always the attitude of those who cannot concretely back up what they assert. And, what is really bizarre is that, you've offered absolutely no proof for your assertions; your so-called evidence, is purely conjectural/extrapolative in nature, what are you talking about?!

I am talking about the processes of the Mind, something that is beneficial to REAL LIFE, not some species of man hiding in a cave , or wherever you think this JINN/HUMAN can be found.

Quote
jinn is a description of the inner world, which is covered from sight. This is symbolic of your thoughts, which use emotions to manifest in the outer world. Energy in motion(EMOTION). One who gives into thier passions would be described as "iblis". The passions they give into would be a result of the shayteen(evil thoughts)

Where do you derive this analysis from?

Please read this thread from the beginning. There is more than enough proof listed. I have given you the root of Malaika (M-L-K), I have shown you how those who say they believe , when alone with thier shayteen(rejecting thoughts/emotion) they say they are really with them. I hav eshown you the verse that uses the derivitive of jinn to mean COVERED, I have shown that "iblis" is a description, like Adam, not a single person, I have shown that your "all" and "except" position does not stand up to the most important statement "There is NO (none) god EXCEPT the God", what more do you want?

Quote
(214) And if they met/found those who believed, they said "We believed". And if they were alone/together with to their shayteen (rejecting thoughts) they said "That we are with you, but we are mocking ."

LOL! My God, and you call me bizarre.

Did call you that?

I don't mean to laugh but

But you probably gave into your emotions.

...that you cannot tell that ayat 214 is talking about people congregating in derogation of Allah and truth, is simply stunning. Your conclusion, as it appears to me is that, the individual in that ayat, is talking to himself/herself. You have to definitely re-phrase your above analysis.

Please tell me your complete understanding of this verse then. My understanding can be seen and verified daily. I go around the corner to the so called "masjid", I see people smiling, greeting each other with "salamunalaikum brother!" and all sorts of things, but when they get home, or back on the corner with thier friends, thier rejecting thoughts(shayteen) come back and they go into the same degrading behavior.

Please let me hear your understanding of this verse.

Quote
But then we have those who submit, they learn to control thier thoughts. Thoughts that are controled NEVER disobey. They are decribed as MALIAKA, which comes form the root word M-L-K(control).

If a human being could control his/her thoughts to the extent which you are suggesting...then they would God.

What extent have I suggested? I don't think you will be able to find that. My position is that the JIHAD (inner struggle to control your thoughts, therfore behavior) continues. We are continously climbing the mountain. Rejecting thoughts get through from time to time, as the God stated, we are all created weak, but we must strive to purify our MINDS from wicked , rejecting thoughts.
(917-10) tells us the goal. The purification of the MIND(nafs). He who purifies it succeeds, he who corrupts it fails.

Allah says that, the malaika, do not disobey, however, humans do disobey. You are contradicting Allah and yourself all over the place.

No brother, you are just too busy trying to defend your position to see clearly. Where is the contradiction? We are dealing with two DESCRIPTIONS of jinn, malaika and shayteen. Malaika do not disobey because if they do, then they become shayteen, just like when a submitter rejects, he is no longer a sumbitter but a rejector or hypocrite.

Please clearly poin out the contradiction so we can settle this.

Tell me, for consistency sake, how do the dabbatin figure into all of this, given that, they and the malaika, are mentioned together in ayats 1649-50? What "thoughts" do they represent?

All of the "dabbatin" prostrate to the God, because thier thoughts are controlled(malaika), EXCEPT those who allow shayteen to contorl THEM, and are thus described as "iblees". Do you realize this message is talking about REAL LIFE? Not some imaginary characters?

Quote
Do you see how the reading confirms my understanding?

No, what I see from Al-Quran in regard to your analysis is the following

278 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

Peace to you D

Your analysis is flowery discourse and is devoid of decisiveness

Is that why you have not addressed any of my proofs? What happens to your 'all" and "except " rule when confronted with "there is no God but the God"? What happens when you read thatjinn are both righteous and wicked? You claim they are without LAW, but when a group of JINN sat and heard the reading, they were still jinn! D

The Jinn, it appears to me, are humans, who, are given to their passions and are without a law from Allah i.e the bulk of mankind.

So without any further delay, tell us what this LAW is that most have not recieved? I hope you do not say this book that has been called "al Quran" because this is not a requirement for the Garden, as we are told even those that call themselves Jew and Christian, ANY who have faith in the God, and the ending time, and live a righeous life will have victory. So what is the LAW that thise "human jinn" are waiting for? Further, how can there be righteous jinn if they are not following any LAW? Doesn't add up brother.

Tell me, do you see any relationship between words Gentiles and Jinns? How about Jinntiles?

Good grief! Gentile is one who has not recieved any guidance. Jinn is a description for the inner procces of the mind, they are covered(jinn).

Quote
(37) ...None knows its interpretation except the God. This is the SAME as saying "ALL do not know the interpretation EXCEPT the God... Do you agree to this simple logical statement?

This poses an interesting problem. I will have to think about it.

YES!!!!!!!!!!! Please do brother. Respectfully, please do! D

Anyway, why do you think Pickthall and Yusef Ali, translate these ayats differently concerning the word..."except"/"but"/"save"?

Honestly, after all we have witnessed from these "translators", who cares. Tell me what YOU think the word should be.

Lastly, above you stated that I called you bizarre. I do not think I did so, but if I did let my emotions control me in that nature, I apologize for the weakness. May the Lord grant me continued patience.

[unknownuser]

PEACE IDOL

No brother, you are just too busy trying to defend your position to see clearly. Where is the contradiction? We are dealing with two DESCRIPTIONS of jinn, malaika and shayteen. Malaika do not disobey because if they do, then they become shayteen, just like when a submitter rejects, he is no longer a sumbitter but a rejector or hypocrite. Please clearly poin out the contradiction so we can settle this.

You have yet to field a coherent Quranic arguement, regarding your following contradiction

Yes and no. Yes, we are of the dabbatan , in that, we too are moving creatures, if the ayat is translated to mean moving creatures, however, humans show pride and we disobey. The dabbatan in the above ayats do neither, hence, no, we are not dabbatan.

Now, are you prepared to assert the dabbatan and malaika are created of a scorching wind/fire and can be of the kafirun and fasiq? ]

I'm asking you, can the dabbatan be unbelievers, wicked individuals, hypocrites? Yes or no? The dabbatan and malaika are both in the same category, in that, neither disobey Allah or show pride, hence, once again, if you cannot show where one dabbatan, in the history of the world, was an unbeliever, a wicked individual , a hypocrite, then neither can the malaika be such.

I ask this, because the nature of the Jinn and men is known and both types of human make moral choices, show arrogance, disobey Allah , and have had messengers sent to them. Can the dabbatan be kafirun? Are you saying these same things apply to dabbatan and malaika? Given that, the dabbatan and malaika are mentioned together, do the malaika have the capacity to be unbelievers and wicked individuals and the dabbatan do not? Are these your positions, friend?

Hopefully, you will answer this time, sans, sarcasim and evasion.

[unknownuser]

PEACE IDOL

So the correction adds "they were given no law". Humans are born under 'LAW", everything we do is according to LAWS.

By law, I mean, people who were scriptureless i.e Torah, Injeel, Quran.

Do you mean they were not given a messenger from the God? Who alive can claim no messenger has come to them? All people get messengers.

Well, if all people get messengers, then the Jinn were human beings, because they were given messengers. The malaika and dabbatin were not given messengers, because they are non-human beings.

There was a group of jinn who listened to the message, they went back to WARN thier people. Where do you read that all of "them" will confirm and submit? Because that would haveto be what happens if your definition has any chance at survival

I don't know what your point is here, please rephrase. I never said anything about all of the Jinn submitting. What do you mean by..."Because that would haveto be what happens if your definition has any chance at survival"? What are you talking about?

Hmm, I wonder how you got that from my statement, yet you claim I am changing your words. Instead of "passions" let us use emotions. Emotions are ESSENTIAL , they are what take our thoughts and manifest them into reality. Energy in motion , or E-Motion. As the story of solomon shows us we use these emotions for our benefit, we do not GIVE INTO EMOTIONS. So yes, it is the WRONG PATH to give into your emotions, it is the right path to control your emotions and make them work for you.

Malaika= controlled thoughts
shayteen= being controlled by emotions, product of rejecting thoughts
jinn= covered (the community within which we cannot literally see)

As I said before, your above definitions are not apparent in Al-Quran. Please provide the ayat(s) which state the above.

Yes, 1850 tells us that "iblis" was covered from sight, just as darkness covers objects so you cant see them. The term for that is "jinn". All of the maliaka are under this category. The God commanded them all to prostrate. THEY did except 'iblis". Who is the THEY" that did prostrate, and who is the EXCEPTION. What simple math this is.

If all of the malaika are under this category -Jinn-, then all of the angels were created from a smokeless fire. Would you post the ayat where it says that the malaika were created of smokless fire, thanks. I believe that, the word janna, is the category which both malaika and Jinn come under, however, Jinn, is a creation apart from the malaika. 1850, clearly illustrates this.

I think you might be giving into "passions" there by blinding you from the clear truth. You and I are also "dabbatin", yet we know that there are hmans who do NOT do as they are commmanded. Why do you reject such clear evidence. You whole position is based on clear conjecture and is rigourously rejected by this reading(quran).

Well, there you have it! The following was an earlier post to you from me regarding this question

Yes and no. Yes, we are of the dabbatan, in that, we too are moving creatures, if the ayat is translated to mean moving creatures, however, humans show pride and we disobey. The dabbatan in the above ayats do neither, hence, no, we are not dabbatan.

What reason would you have NOT to translate "dabbatan" as all creatures?

(2445) And Allah has created every animal from water of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.

And...

Neither you nor I can answer the question "are there evil animals?" What we can answer is that animals CAN choose. I do not expect to find a verse regarding animal messangers in a message intended for humans.

That animals can choose isn't the issue. The issue is, can they make a moral choice? If they could make a moral choice, that is, to consciously obey or disobey Allah, then some animals would have to be evil and some good, just as with the Jinn...they take divergent paths some to the right and others to the contrary. Now, has Allah said that of the dabbatan? Simply saying they can choose is an arguement.

It is my understanding that, this is an analogy emphazing to man the great responsibility which is placed on him by Allah and that he would undoubtedly behave in an unjust manner.

I agree, but notice that it was not only humans that were given the CHOICE.

If it is an analogy, then, the inanimate things mentioned do not literally have a choice. You will take notice that, the dabbatan and angels are not mentioned in that ayat. Why do you think that is?

This thread is discussing one of those verses, but you have to understand the symbolisms, like Yusef was taught.

Thus far, anyway, I can distinguish between the literal and the figurative and between allusion and fact. You, however, continue to have difficulty in these areas.

None of them except the ones who fulfill the characteristics of "iblis". No, none of them have arrogance because once they do, they no longer are called "malaika". Simple

And none of them can have those characteristics, because they lack the capacity to make a moral decision. Can you show us one dabbatan, in the history of the world that, behaved like Iblis? If you cannot, then the maliaka, once again, cannot either, because Allah has put them in the same category with the dabbatan, that is, they do not disobey or show pride.

PREIST BOKMEI Nay! they wonder that there has come to them a warner from among themselves, so the unbelievers say This is a wonderful thing

8042 These are they who are unbelievers, the wicked.

Now, are you prepared to assert the dabbatan and malaika are created of a scorching wind/fire and can be of the kafirun and fasiq? ]

What?

I'm asking you, can the dabbatan be unbelievers, wicked individuals, hypocrites? Yes or no? The dabbatan and malaika are both in the same category, in that, neither disobey Allah or show pride, hence, once again, if you cannot show where one dabbatan, in the history of the world, was an unbeliever, a wicked individual , a hypocrite, then neither can the malaika be such.

I ask this, because the nature of the Jinn and men is known and both types of human make moral choices, show arrogance, disobey Allah , and have had messengers sent to them. Can the dabbatan be kafirun? Are you saying these same things apply to dabbatan and malaika? Given that, the dabbatan and malaika are mentioned together, do the malaika have the capacity to be unbelievers and wicked individuals and the dabbatan do not? Are these your positions, friend?

Excuse me one second, I have to go add some water to my "clay" fingers so I can continue typing.

You didn't address the question.

There is NO god EXCEPT the God.

I don't see "all" in that ayat.

Quote 5. I, further, pointer out to you that, if the dabbatin and malaika could disobey, then, as with the Jinn/humans, they too are capable of evil. If they are capable of evil, then, where do we find any of the dabbatin or malaika, having had messengers sent to them? You have yet to resolve this question.

Which "dabbatin" or "malaika" have you sat down and interviewed with to be able to say this? This is ridiculous.

Answer the question and save the judgements. If the dabbatin and malaika could disobey, then, as with the Jinn/humans, they too are capable of evil. If they are capable of evil, then, where do we find any of the dabbatin or malaika, having had messengers sent to them? You still have yet to resolve this question.

Quote 6. Is it rational to believe that, if Iblis was of the malaika that only he rebelled and no other malaika before or since him rebelled?

If you take the word "iblis" to be the title of a single PERSON, then I can see your dilemma, but when you understand the desription "iblis" as one of desperation who acts based on emotion(shayteen), then you can see that there are MILLIONS of "iblees" all over this world. Just as Adam is not a single person but a concept of ALL MANKIND, so is "iblees". Or did you think Iblis was some Human who did not get on the ground in front of some human named Adam?

Where in Al-Quran can I find where it says..."Just as Adam is not a single person but a concept of ALL MANKIND, so is "iblees"? Iblis, as I've stated from the very beginning, was a human being, who, became dominated by his passions. You are making my point. If, Iblis, was human, well, then he could not be a malaika or a non-human dabbatin, because the dabbatin and malaika do not disobey, period . You have yet to resolve your contradiction on this matter. Please do and save any cute/sarcastic remarks like last time, thanks.

I am talking about the processes of the Mind, something that is beneficial to REAL LIFE, not some species of man hiding in a cave , or wherever you think this JINN/HUMAN can be found.

I'm talking about MIND as well. Jinn, shaitan, and men, represent, for me anyway, different kinds of MINDS.

Where do you derive this analysis from?

Please read this thread from the beginning. There is more than enough proof listed. I have given you the root of Malaika (M-L-K), I have shown you how those who say they believe , when alone with thier shayteen(rejecting thoughts/emotion) they say they are really with them. I hav eshown you the verse that uses the derivitive of jinn to mean COVERED, I have shown that "iblis" is a description, like Adam, not a single person, I have shown that your "all" and "except" position does not stand up to the most important statement "There is NO (none) god EXCEPT the God", what more do you want?

Correction, you've offer no proof, only your conjectures/extrapolations and there is a difference.

quote...that you cannot tell that ayat 214 is talking about people congregating in derogation of Allah and truth, is simply stunning. Your conclusion, as it appears to me is that, the individual in that ayat, is talking to himself/herself. You have to definitely re-phrase your above analysis.

Please tell me your complete understanding of this verse then. My understanding can be seen and verified daily. I go around the corner to the so called "masjid", I see people smiling, greeting each other with "salamunalaikum brother!" and all sorts of things, but when they get home, or back on the corner with thier friends, thier rejecting thoughts(shayteen) come back and they go into the same degrading behavior.
Please let me hear your understanding of this verse.

Idol, what are you talking about?! I'm saying the same thing. You are really confused.

But then we have those who submit, they learn to control thier thoughts. Thoughts that are controled NEVER disobey. They are decribed as MALIAKA, which comes form the root word M-L-K(control).

What human being do you know of, who, never disobeyed Allah? If you can name one, then please show the ayats where that individual is defined as a malaika, not malik, but malaika.

quote...If a human being could control his/her thoughts to the extent which you are suggesting...then they would God.

What extent have I suggested? I don't think you will be able to find that. My position is that the JIHAD (inner struggle to control your thoughts, therfore behavior) continues. We are continously climbing the mountain. Rejecting thoughts get through from time to time, as the God stated, we are all created weak, but we must strive to purify our MINDS from wicked , rejecting thoughts. (917-10) tells us the goal. The purification of the MIND(nafs). He who purifies it succeeds, he who corrupts it fails.

You said "But then we have those who submit, they learn to control thier thoughts. Thoughts that are controled NEVER disobey. They are decribed as MALIAKA".

So, If a human being could control his/her thoughts to the extent which you are suggesting ...then they would God.

Quote Allah says that, the malaika, do not disobey, however, humans do disobey. You are contradicting Allah and yourself all over the place.

Quote
Tell me, for consistency sake, how do the dabbatin figure into all of this, given that, they and the malaika, are mentioned together in ayats 1649-50? What "thoughts" do they represent?

All of the "dabbatin" prostrate to the God, because thier thoughts are controlled(malaika), EXCEPT those who allow shayteen to contorl THEM, and are thus described as "iblees". Do you realize this message is talking about REAL LIFE? Not some imaginary characters?

So, a jellyfish has thoughts and can become shaitanic, is this really your position?

Is that why you have not addressed any of my proofs? What happens to your 'all" and "except " rule when confronted with "there is no God but the God"? What happens when you read thatjinn are both righteous and wicked? You claim they are without LAW, but when a group of JINN sat and heard the reading, they were still jinn!

The only thing I haven't responded to yet is...the "none" question you posed. I know the Jinn are both righteous and not, I posted that to you, however, they were scriptureless either by not being given one or rejecting what they were given.

So without any further delay, tell us what this LAW is that most have not recieved? I hope you do not say this book that has been called "al Quran" because this is not a requirement for the Garden, as we are told even those that call themselves Jew and Christian, ANY who have faith in the God, and the ending time, and live a righeous life will have victory. So what is the LAW that thise "human jinn" are waiting for? Further, how can there be righteous jinn if they are not following any LAW? Doesn't add up brother.

Torah, Injeel and Quran...are all books of Law/Scripture.

Quote
Tell me, do you see any relationship between words Gentiles and Jinns? How about Jinntiles?

Good grief! Gentile is one who has not recieved any guidance. Jinn is a description for the inner procces of the mind, they are covered(jinn).

Well, you just made my point. What guidance was given to the Jinn, before and since, Adam?

Quote Anyway, why do you think Pickthall and Yusef Ali, translate these ayats differently concerning the word..."except"/"but"/"save"?

Honestly, after all we have witnessed from these "translators", who cares. Tell me what YOU think the word should be.

I'm asking you why one translator, Pickthall, didn't say..."none" and the other one did?

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you,

You have yet to field a coherent Quranic arguement, regarding your following contradiction

Yes and no. Yes, we are of the dabbatan , in that, we too are moving creatures, if the ayat is translated to mean moving creatures, however, humans show pride and we disobey. The dabbatan in the above ayats do neither, hence, no, we are not dabbatan.

If you were to apply the WHOLE of the book to your dilemma, you would find the solution. There are EXCEPTIONS. The malaika prostrated EXCEPT iblis and the dabbatan do as they are commanded EXCEPT the ones who can be described as "iblis".

Now, are you prepared to assert the dabbatan and malaika are created of a scorching wind/fire and can be of the kafirun and fasiq? ]

Yes.

I'm asking you, can the dabbatan be unbelievers, wicked individuals, hypocrites? Yes or no?

I cannot sit down and have a conversation with animals, so I cannot answer regarding ANIMALS, but regarding dabbatan, YES, humans are capable of the above.

The dabbatan and malaika are both in the same category, in that, neither disobey Allah or show pride, hence, once again, if you cannot show where one dabbatan, in the history of the world, was an unbeliever, a wicked individual , a hypocrite, then neither can the malaika be such.

Pharoah

I ask this, because the nature of the Jinn and men is known and both types of human make moral choices, show arrogance, disobey Allah , and have had messengers sent to them.

Let me stop you here, if both human humans and jinn humans can be good and bad, what is the difference between the two? Please tell me in clear terms the difference between these two types of humans (according to your understanding).

Can the dabbatan be kafirun?

Yes, humans are of the dabbatin.

Are you saying these same things apply to dabbatan and malaika?

Malaika are found within dabbatan.

Given that, the dabbatan and malaika are mentioned together, do the malaika have the capacity to be unbelievers and wicked individuals and the dabbatan do not?

Yes, as shown by "iblis".

Are these your positions, friend?

These are the positions stated in this reading.

Hopefully, you will answer this time, sans, sarcasim and evasion.

These are the same answers I gave you before.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you PB,

Quote
So the correction adds "they were given no law". Humans are born under 'LAW", everything we do is according to LAWS.

By law, I mean, people who were scriptureless i.e Torah, Injeel, Quran.

So you are saying that jinn= gentiles? Are you saying that the God commanded the maliaka to prostrate to Adam, and a gentile was also there and was expected to obey this command?

Quote
Do you mean they were not given a messenger from the God? Who alive can claim no messenger has come to them? All people get messengers.

Well, if all people get messengers, then the Jinn were human beings, because they were given messengers. The malaika and dabbatin were not given messengers, because they are non-human beings.

Brother, humans ARE dabbatin, please stop trying to talk around this clear fact.

Quote
There was a group of jinn who listened to the message, they went back to WARN thier people. Where do you read that all of "them" will confirm and submit? Because that would haveto be what happens if your definition has any chance at survival

I don't know what your point is here, please rephrase. I never said anything about all of the Jinn submitting. What do you mean by..."Because that would haveto be what happens if your definition has any chance at survival"? What are you talking about?

Your definition of jinn being humans who give into thier passions does not work if jinn continue to be jinn after hearing the message.

Quote
Yes, 1850 tells us that "iblis" was covered from sight, just as darkness covers objects so you cant see them. The term for that is "jinn". All of the maliaka are under this category. The God commanded them all to prostrate. THEY did except 'iblis". Who is the THEY" that did prostrate, and who is the EXCEPTION. What simple math this is.

If all of the malaika are under this category -Jinn-, then all of the angels were created from a smokeless fire. Would you post the ayat where it says that the malaika were created of smokless fire, thanks.

The verse that says iblis was the malaika who did not prostrate.

I believe that, the word janna, is the category which both malaika and Jinn come under, however, Jinn, is a creation apart from the malaika. 1850, clearly illustrates this.

Yes, I am aware of your position

Quote
I think you might be giving into "passions" there by blinding you from the clear truth. You and I are also "dabbatin", yet we know that there are hmans who do NOT do as they are commmanded. Why do you reject such clear evidence. You whole position is based on clear conjecture and is rigourously rejected by this reading(quran).

Well, there you have it! The following was an earlier post to you from me regarding this question

Yes and no. Yes, we are of the dabbatan, in that, we too are moving creatures, if the ayat is translated to mean moving creatures, however, humans show pride and we disobey. The dabbatan in the above ayats do neither, hence, no, we are not dabbatan.

What reason would you have NOT to translate "dabbatan" as all creatures?

(2445) And Allah has created every animal from water of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.

And...

Quote
Neither you nor I can answer the question "are there evil animals?" What we can answer is that animals CAN choose. I do not expect to find a verse regarding animal messangers in a message intended for humans.

That animals can choose isn't the issue. The issue is, can they make a moral choice? If they could make a moral choice, that is, to consciously obey or disobey Allah, then some animals would have to be evil and some good, just as with the Jinn...they take divergent paths some to the right and others to the contrary. Now, has Allah said that of the dabbatan? Simply saying they can choose is an arguement.

It is my understanding that, this is an analogy emphazing to man the great responsibility which is placed on him by Allah and that he would undoubtedly behave in an unjust manner.

Quote
I agree, but notice that it was not only humans that were given the CHOICE.

If it is an analogy, then, the inanimate things mentioned do not literally have a choice. You will take notice that, the dabbatan and angels are not mentioned in that ayat. Why do you think that is?

What are you talking about? Why have you re posted part of our discussion? Nothing is changed. Humans are part of dabbatin, so yes, some dabbatin do reject. What was the point of the above re posting?

Quote
This thread is discussing one of those verses, but you have to understand the symbolisms, like Yusef was taught.

Thus far, anyway, I can distinguish between the literal and the figurative and between allusion and fact. You, however, continue to have difficulty in these areas.

I'm listening.

Quote
None of them except the ones who fulfill the characteristics of "iblis". No, none of them have arrogance because once they do, they no longer are called "malaika". Simple

And none of them can have those characteristics, because they lack the capacity to make a moral decision. Can you show us one dabbatan, in the history of the world that, behaved like Iblis? If you cannot, then the maliaka, once again, cannot either, because Allah has put them in the same category with the dabbatan, that is, they do not disobey or show pride.

Pharoah

PREIST BOKMEI Nay! they wonder that there has come to them a warner from among themselves, so the unbelievers say This is a wonderful thing

8042 These are they who are unbelievers, the wicked.

Now, are you prepared to assert the dabbatan and malaika are created of a scorching wind/fire and can be of the kafirun and fasiq? ]

Yes.

Quote
What?

I'm asking you, can the dabbatan be unbelievers, wicked individuals, hypocrites? Yes or no? The dabbatan and malaika are both in the same category, in that, neither disobey Allah or show pride, hence, once again, if you cannot show where one dabbatan, in the history of the world, was an unbeliever, a wicked individual , a hypocrite, then neither can the malaika be such.

How many times will you ask the same question which I have answered a billion times?

Quote
There is NO god EXCEPT the God.

I don't see "all" in that ayat.

Do you see NONE?

Quote 5. I, further, pointer out to you that, if the dabbatin and malaika could disobey, then, as with the Jinn/humans, they too are capable of evil. If they are capable of evil, then, where do we find any of the dabbatin or malaika, having had messengers sent to them? You have yet to resolve this question.

Since humans are dabbatin, I will point you to this reading to listen tothe stories of thier messengers.

Quote
Which "dabbatin" or "malaika" have you sat down and interviewed with to be able to say this? This is ridiculous.

Answer the question and save the judgements. If the dabbatin and malaika could disobey, then, as with the Jinn/humans, they too are capable of evil. If they are capable of evil, then, where do we find any of the dabbatin or malaika, having had messengers sent to them? You still have yet to resolve this question.

"Musa" was a messenger sent to the human dabbatin.

Quote 6. Is it rational to believe that, if Iblis was of the malaika that only he rebelled and no other malaika before or since him rebelled?

Quote
If you take the word "iblis" to be the title of a single PERSON, then I can see your dilemma, but when you understand the desription "iblis" as one of desperation who acts based on emotion(shayteen), then you can see that there are MILLIONS of "iblees" all over this world. Just as Adam is not a single person but a concept of ALL MANKIND, so is "iblees". Or did you think Iblis was some Human who did not get on the ground in front of some human named Adam?

Where in Al-Quran can I find where it says..."Just as Adam is not a single person but a concept of ALL MANKIND, so is "iblees"?

Good grief Charlie Brown! Use some reason! Have I asked you to show me the verse that says jinn are gentiles? Its ridiculous. We must reason to get the whole picture. I gather that you take iblis to be a single entity that exsists until the end of time?

Iblis, as I've stated from the very beginning, was a human being, who, became dominated by his passions. You are making my point. If, Iblis, was human, well, then he could not be a malaika or a non-human dabbatin

lol Non -human dabbatin, huh? Why the need for clarification? Because it is the only way to get past this "hurdle" in your position.

, because the dabbatin and malaika do not disobey, period .

You forgot to say NON HUman Dabbatin.

You have yet to resolve your contradiction on this matter. Please do and save any cute/sarcastic remarks like last time, thanks.

The only contradiction here is the one that causes you to use the phrase "non human dabbatin".

Quote
I am talking about the processes of the Mind, something that is beneficial to REAL LIFE, not some species of man hiding in a cave , or wherever you think this JINN/HUMAN can be found.

I'm talking about MIND as well. Jinn, shaitan, and men, represent, for me anyway, different kinds of MINDS.

Good.

Quote
Where do you derive this analysis from?

Quote
Please read this thread from the beginning. There is more than enough proof listed. I have given you the root of Malaika (M-L-K), I have shown you how those who say they believe , when alone with thier shayteen(rejecting thoughts/emotion) they say they are really with them. I hav eshown you the verse that uses the derivitive of jinn to mean COVERED, I have shown that "iblis" is a description, like Adam, not a single person, I have shown that your "all" and "except" position does not stand up to the most important statement "There is NO (none) god EXCEPT the God", what more do you want?

Correction, you've offer no proof, only your conjectures/extrapolations and there is a difference.

Ohh I see.

quote...that you cannot tell that ayat 214 is talking about people congregating in derogation of Allah and truth, is simply stunning. Your conclusion, as it appears to me is that, the individual in that ayat, is talking to himself/herself. You have to definitely re-phrase your above analysis.

What does ALONE mean in 214? I hope this is not going to be another "EXCEPT" problem.

Quote
Please tell me your complete understanding of this verse then. My understanding can be seen and verified daily. I go around the corner to the so called "masjid", I see people smiling, greeting each other with "salamunalaikum brother!" and all sorts of things, but when they get home, or back on the corner with thier friends, thier rejecting thoughts(shayteen) come back and they go into the same degrading behavior.
Please let me hear your understanding of this verse.

Idol, what are you talking about?! I'm saying the same thing. You are really confused.

No, we are not saying the same thing. I am saying that shayteen equals rejecting thoughts, so the oerson , when they return to thier evil deeds can be all by themselves, but still with thier SHAYTEEN (rejecting thoughts), whereas you seem to be taking shayteen to be people.

Quote
But then we have those who submit, they learn to control thier thoughts. Thoughts that are controled NEVER disobey. They are decribed as MALIAKA, which comes form the root word M-L-K(control).

What human being do you know of, who, never disobeyed Allah? If you can name one, then please show the ayats where that individual is defined as a malaika, not malik, but malaika.

WHat? Where did I say there is one who never disobeyed? I said that a controlled thought NEVER disobeyes, if the thought becomes uncntrooled, it is no longer described as "malaika", but instead becomes "shaytaan".

quote...If a human being could control his/her thoughts to the extent which you are suggesting...then they would God.

Quote
What extent have I suggested? I don't think you will be able to find that. My position is that the JIHAD (inner struggle to control your thoughts, therfore behavior) continues. We are continously climbing the mountain. Rejecting thoughts get through from time to time, as the God stated, we are all created weak, but we must strive to purify our MINDS from wicked , rejecting thoughts. (917-10) tells us the goal. The purification of the MIND(nafs). He who purifies it succeeds, he who corrupts it fails.

You said "But then we have those who submit, they learn to control thier thoughts. Thoughts that are controled NEVER disobey. They are decribed as MALIAKA".

So, If a human being could control his/her thoughts to the extent which you are suggesting ...then they would God.

It is a description, it changes, just like submitter and rejector. A thought can be "malaika" which NEVER disobeys, because if it does, it is no longer a "malaika" but instead a "shaytaan".

Quote Allah says that, the malaika, do not disobey, however, humans do disobey. You are contradicting Allah and yourself all over the place.

Quote
Tell me, for consistency sake, how do the dabbatin figure into all of this, given that, they and the malaika, are mentioned together in ayats 1649-50? What "thoughts" do they represent?

Quote
All of the "dabbatin" prostrate to the God, because thier thoughts are controlled(malaika), EXCEPT those who allow shayteen to contorl THEM, and are thus described as "iblees". Do you realize this message is talking about REAL LIFE? Not some imaginary characters?

So, a jellyfish has thoughts and can become shaitanic, is this really your position?

I don't know any jellyfish, but humans do all the time.

Quote
Is that why you have not addressed any of my proofs? What happens to your 'all" and "except " rule when confronted with "there is no God but the God"? What happens when you read thatjinn are both righteous and wicked? You claim they are without LAW, but when a group of JINN sat and heard the reading, they were still jinn!

The only thing I haven't responded to yet is...the "none" question you posed. I know the Jinn are both righteous and not, I posted that to you, however, they were scriptureless either by not being given one or rejecting what they were given.

So I guess you will never address the "NONE" question.

Quote
Tell me, do you see any relationship between words Gentiles and Jinns? How about Jinntiles?

Quote
Good grief! Gentile is one who has not recieved any guidance. Jinn is a description for the inner procces of the mind, they are covered(jinn).

Well, you just made my point. What guidance was given to the Jinn, before and since, Adam?

The God's truthful message, which they sat and heard, and continue to sit and here.

Quote Anyway, why do you think Pickthall and Yusef Ali, translate these ayats differently concerning the word..."except"/"but"/"save"?

Quote
Honestly, after all we have witnessed from these "translators", who cares. Tell me what YOU think the word should be.

I'm asking you why one translator, Pickthall, didn't say..."none" and the other one did?

What part of "who cares" don't you understand. Lets talk about what it is, not why someone else wrote it that way.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you PB,

I would like to shorten the posts so they can be easily followed.

Please just tell me EXACTLY what you think jinn are, are they people who have not heard the message, or are they people who give into thier passions, or both.