WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...

[unknownuser]

Peace Idol

Stop with the mind games. They ALL did EXCEPT iblis. Please enroll in the closest school to learn about EXCEPTIONS.

For the last time now, Idol, it is a contradiction in terms to say "all" and then follow it up with "except". This is why in Sura 103, Allah, says of man that "he is in loss" and then follows it up with "except", however, Allah did not say..."all of man and then follow it up with "except".

1031 I swear by the time,

1032 Most surely man is in loss,

1033 Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.

Had, Allah said..."the angels bowed except Iblis, then you would have an arguement, because He doesn't say..."all" of the angels bowed. However, 1649-50 and 1850, would still preclude Iblis being of the malaika.

The covered ones fit perfectly with thoughts. Some are righteous and some are not.

Who, are the "covered ones"?! This is makes no sense.

DHUL Quote Now, I consider the definition of "powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah", to be the proper use of JINN, hence, for me, that is "remaining inside of Al-Qur'an/keeping with the context of Al-Qur'an".

How can THAT be the proper use when we are told there are RIGHTEOUS JINN, and there are Jinn who follow a different path?? Your understanding places ALL of the jinn in the same category of those who rebel, which is NOT in context of this reading(quran).

Please don't confuse your ideas with mine, thanks. Before a law was given to Jinn/humans, they still lived by an inherent moral code and some adhered to it and some did not. Are you saying the Jinn humans were born evil? For example, were all of the people of Muhammad, jahil/wild savages/unrighteous Jinns, before being given Al-Quran? No, some were moral and some were not.

7211 There are among us some that are righteous, and some the contrary we follow divergent paths.

However, if we take the covered ones(jinn) to be thoughts in our minds, we can readily verify that humans have righteous thoughts and also have wicked thoughts.

So, instead of referring to those electro-chemical reactions which take place in our brain as "thoughts", we should now call them Jinns, is this your position??

[unknownuser]

DHUL Quote The following ayats appear to support my assertion on this. The following ayats describe both Jinn and men as people .

1815 Haolai qawmuna ittakhathoo min doonihi alihatan lawla yatoona AAalayhim bisultanin bayyinin faman athlamu mimmani iftara AAala Allahi kathiban

1815 "These our people have taken for worship gods other than Him why do they not bring forward an authority clear (and convincing) for what they do? Who doth more wrong than such as invent a falsehood against Allah.

What does 1815 have to do with "jinn"??

Both Jinn and men are defined as qawmana--people, that is, humans.

Quote 4630. Qaloo ya qawmana inna samiAAna kitaban onzila min baAAdi moosa musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi yahdee ila alhaqqi wa-ila tareeqin mustaqeemin

4630. They said, "O our people! We have heard a Book revealed after Moses, confirming what came before it it guides to the Truth and to a Straight Path.

This is the symbolism of the INNER CITY (madina). This is the symbolism that helps us to focus on the inner workings of the MIND. It is a SYMBOLISM, not literal.

That remains to be seen, however, your assertion, at least at this point anyway, is nothing but conjecture and well you know it.

I am sure you have never seen any "jinn" sitting anywhere listening to anything. And again, the idea that jinn are humans who are out of control with passion does not fit the context of 7211.

I see Jinns all the time...those who don't live by Allah's laws. Tell you what, this Sunday, watch any football game and you will plenty of Jinns in the stadiums. By the way, I never said that Jinns were out of control of their passions I said they were given to their passions, meaning, the Jinn are less contrained relative to their passions due to lack of knowledge. Anyway, Allah, was telling the Messenger that, there were people , not "hidden thoughts", who were listening to what was being revealed.

Quote 721 Say It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened. They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!

Yes, inspired, NOT SHOWN, that is because it is part of the covered community within. The community of THOUGHTS that live in the city(medina). We must WARN this "mother" of cities!

This is just your own conjectural stuff, Idol. Al-Quran, does not support this view. The Messenger, the Ummi Prophet, was to come to the people, whom, Jesus did not...the Gentiles/Jinns.

There is a separate entity for the communitites of Jinns and that of men. Wow I am impress what an eye can do for me I can start quoting my arguments now. Gosh its amazing.

"The Gentiles are the Non-Jews, a name given by the Hebrews to all those who had not received the law of Moses...Hebrew Goyim signified the nations, the surrounding nations, foreigners, as opposed to Israel. A Goy was a foreign nation; hence a Gentile."

http//www.latter-rain.com/Israel/gentile.htm

"The jinn mentioned in the Holy Quran are certainly not the genii of fairy tales or what people usually imagine them to be. This word indicates "something hidden from view", and is used in the Quran with several different meanings referring to people or beings who are remote and not seen. It is applied to leaders, as contrasted with the ordinary public, and to people of foreign lands. For instance, the Quran says

"O assembly of jinn and men, did there not come to you messengers from among you. . ." (6131).

As messengers from God only came to human beings, the jinn here are also humans, and the address "jinn and men" is to the leaders and the ordinary people. Similarly, the Quran twice mentions some jinn as accepting its teachings (4629; 721). In the first case, a tribe of Jews is meant, and in the second some Christians are meant, being called jinn because of their remoteness".

http//www.aaiil.org/text/books/others/zahidaziz/introductionislam/appendixjinn.shtml

From the above two passages, it is interesting how similar in both sound and meaning Jinn and Gentile are. It appears then that, Jinn and men, while both being human beings, do represent different communities, relative, to whether or not they a Law from Allah. The Last Messenger, as spoken of in ayat 7157, appears to have been of the Jinn himself

7157. Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel. He enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and prohibits for them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were on them. So those who believe in him and honour him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him ? these are the successful.

"Some have, however, argued that ummi and "unlettered" should not be taken to mean illiterate, but rather scriptureless. This would mean that when Muhammad is described as ummi, it means that he is not one of the Jews (a people "of the Book") or simply that he is not a member of a group which has yet received a revelation from God - at least, not until he received the Qur'an. Such a translation seems more likely to many because Muhammad is also described as having been a merchant, and it is unlikely that a completely illiterate person could have functioned as a merchant".

http//atheism.about.com/library/glossary/islam/bldef_ummi.htm

Another interesting article on the JINN

http//tariq.bitshop.com/simplyIslam/jinn.htm

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you PB,

For the last time now, Idol, it is a contradiction in terms to say "all" and then follow it up with "except". This is why in Sura 103, Allah, says of man that "he is in loss" and then follows it up with "except", however, Allah did not say..."all of man and then follow it up with "except".

Once again, you contradict because the God says "There is NO god"

Then continues to say "EXCEPT the God".

So your reasoning does not hold up to the most important instruction. I am sure you see the connection between ALL and NONE.

Who, are the "covered ones"?! This is makes no sense.

al jinn. I have shown the verse where he darkness covered, it is up to you after that. Covered Ones might not be the perfect translation, but you should get the point.

Please don't confuse your ideas with mine, thanks. Before a law was given to Jinn/humans, they still lived by an inherent moral code and some adhered to it and some did not.

This "inherent" moral code is "al quran", before it is written down on paper.

Are you saying the Jinn humans were born evil?

You will have to ask me a question I can understand, I don't know what a "jinn human" is. Further, where did I imply that ANY BEING was born evil? I am SIMPLY and PLAINLY stating that the God tells us that jinn are both righteous and wicked.

For example, were all of the people of Muhammad, jahil/wild savages/unrighteous Jinns, before being given Al-Quran? No, some were moral and some were not.

What about after they recieved the message, did they all become saints, or did some continue to reject?

But we are moving away from my point, you are trying to convince us that jinn are wicked humans, you have been proven wrong by the verse that tells us that jinn are both righteous and wicked.

So, instead of referring to those electro-chemical reactions which take place in our brain as "thoughts", we should now call them Jinns, is this your position??

Yes, they are of the covered (jinn). Unless you have a jinn you would like to introduce us to D

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you PB,

I want to go over your final analysis so that no one will get confused in these long posts.

Your final analysis is that jinn are human beings who give into passions.

Yet this reading(quran) tells us that jinn are both righteous and wicked.

This CONTRADICTS your conclusion, why won't you stop following that path you are on when the proof is clear?

But what is even more bizarre is that your idea is not that far from mine, which makes me feel like it is you who is giving into your passions, not wanting to be shown wrong after such a long debate. I hope you will humble yourself to the messengers decision.

jinn is a description of the inner world, which is covered from sight. This is symbolic of your thoughts, which use emotions to manifest in the outer world. Energy in motion(EMOTION). One who gives into thier passions would be described as "iblis". The passions they give into would be a result of the shayteen(evil thoughts)

(214) And if they met/found those who believed, they said "We believed". And if they were alone/together with to their shayteen (rejecting thoughts) they said "That we are with you, but we are mocking ."

But then we have those who submit, they learn to control thier thoughts. Thoughts that are controled NEVER disobey. They are decribed as MALIAKA, which comes form the root word M-L-K(control).

Do you see how the reading confirms my understanding?

Jinn= covered
Malaika= controlled thoughts
shayteen= rejecting thoughts

Again, jinn CANNOT be humans who give into passions because the God says that some jinn are ALSO RIGHTEOUS.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you,

(37) ...None knows its interpretation except the God.

This is the SAME as saying "ALL do not know the interpretation EXCEPT the God...

Do you agree to this simple logical statement?

[unknownuser]

PEACE IDOL

I want to go over your final analysis so that no one will get confused in these long posts.

Your final analysis is that jinn are human beings who give into passions.

I said that, the jinn are human beings are given to their passions/were given no law. I corrected you on this yesterday and still you wish to re-word my statments, please don't.

Yet this reading(quran) tells us that jinn are both righteous and wicked.

Being given to one's passions, doesn't mean that one is necessarily evil. Are passions, inherently evil, is this your position, because it certainly isn't mine.

This CONTRADICTS your conclusion, why won't you stop following that path you are on when the proof is clear?

1. Clear proof?! LOL! Ayat 1850, from Allah Himself, tells humanity what Iblis was, yet, you want to re-work the ayat to mean, only Allah knows what, and then you tell me that you're offering clear proof?! Now, that is bizarre.

2. Clear proof?! Ayats 1649-50, Allah Himself, tells humanity that, the dabbatin and the malaika, share three common things

a. they represent distinct creations.

b. they have no pride.

c. they do as commanded and do not disobey.

yet, you want to assert that one of the malaika rebelled, despite the fact that, ayats 1649-50 and 3873 makes that absolutely impossible.

3. I pointed out to you that, the basic nature of the malaika is unknown, while the basic nature of Iblis is known, hence, if Iblis was of the malaika, then the malaika would have to have the same basic nature as Iblis -fire.

4. I pointed out to you that, "all" cannot be followed with "except", because that would be a contradiction in terms.

5. I, further, pointer out to you that, if the dabbatin and malaika could disobey, then, as with the Jinn/humans, they too are capable of evil. If they are capable of evil, then, where do we find any of the dabbatin or malaika, having had messengers sent to them? You have yet to resolve this question.

6. Is it rational to believe that, if Iblis was of the malaika that only he rebelled and no other malaika before or since him rebelled?

But what is even more bizarre is that your idea is not that far from mine, which makes me feel like it is you who is giving into your passions, not wanting to be shown wrong after such a long debate. I hope you will humble yourself to the messengers decision.

Your grandiosity is quite apparent, but that is always the attitude of those who cannot concretely back up what they assert. And, what is really bizarre is that, you've offered absolutely no proof for your assertions; your so-called evidence, is purely conjectural/extrapolative in nature, what are you talking about?!

jinn is a description of the inner world, which is covered from sight. This is symbolic of your thoughts, which use emotions to manifest in the outer world. Energy in motion(EMOTION). One who gives into thier passions would be described as "iblis". The passions they give into would be a result of the shayteen(evil thoughts)

Where do you derive this analysis from?

(214) And if they met/found those who believed, they said "We believed". And if they were alone/together with to their shayteen (rejecting thoughts) they said "That we are with you, but we are mocking ."

LOL! My God, and you call me bizarre. I don't mean to laugh but...that you cannot tell that ayat 214 is talking about people congregating in derogation of Allah and truth, is simply stunning. Your conclusion, as it appears to me is that, the individual in that ayat, is talking to himself/herself. You have to definitely re-phrase your above analysis.

But then we have those who submit, they learn to control thier thoughts. Thoughts that are controled NEVER disobey. They are decribed as MALIAKA, which comes form the root word M-L-K(control).

If a human being could control his/her thoughts to the extent which you are suggesting...then they would God. Allah says that, the malaika, do not disobey, however, humans do disobey. You are contradicting Allah and yourself all over the place.

Tell me, for consistency sake, how do the dabbatin figure into all of this, given that, they and the malaika, are mentioned together in ayats 1649-50? What "thoughts" do they represent?

Do you see how the reading confirms my understanding?

No, what I see from Al-Quran in regard to your analysis is the following

278 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

Main Entry ILLITERATE showing or marked by a lack of acquaintance with the fundamentals of a particular field of knowledge.

Main Entry CONJECTURE inference from defective or presumptive evidence a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork.

Main Entry EXTRAPOLATE to project, extend, or expand (known data or experience) into an area not known or experienced so as to arrive at a usually conjectural knowledge of the unknown area.

You entire analysis cannot be proven, Idol, precisely, because it is so conjectural/extrapolative...not to mention...full of holes.

Jinn= covered
Malaika= controlled thoughts
shayteen= rejecting thoughts

Again, jinn CANNOT be humans who give into passions because the God says that some jinn are ALSO RIGHTEOUS
.

Your analysis is flowery discourse and is devoid of decisiveness. The Jinn, it appears to me, are humans, who, are given to their passions and are without a law from Allah i.e the bulk of mankind.

Tell me, do you see any relationship between words Gentiles and Jinns? How about Jinntiles?

(37) ...None knows its interpretation except the God. This is the SAME as saying "ALL do not know the interpretation EXCEPT the God... Do you agree to this simple logical statement?

This poses an interesting problem. I will have to think about it. Anyway, why do you think Pickthall and Yusef Ali, translate these ayats differently concerning the word..."except"/"but"/"save"?

PICK-- 299 Verily We have revealed unto thee clear tokens, and only miscreants will disbelieve in them.

YUSEF-- 299 We have sent down to thee Manifest Signs (ayat); and none reject them but those who are perverse.

299 Walaqad anzalna ilayka ayatin bayyinatin wama yakfuru biha illa alfasiqoona

PICK--37 ...None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

YUSEF--37 ...but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

37 Huwa allathee anzala AAalayka alkitaba minhu ayatun muhkamatun hunna ommu alkitabi waokharu mutashabihatun faamma allatheena fee quloobihim zayghun fayattabiAAoona ma tashabaha minhu ibtighaa alfitnati waibtighaa ta/weelihi wama yaAAlamu ta/weelahu illa Allahu waalrrasikhoona fee alAAilmi yaqooloona amanna bihi kullun min AAindi rabbina wama yaththakkaru illa oloo al-albabi .

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you,

Quote
I want to go over your final analysis so that no one will get confused in these long posts.

Your final analysis is that jinn are human beings who give into passions.

I said that, the jinn are human beings are given to their passions/were given no law. I corrected you on this yesterday and still you wish to re-word my statments, please don't.

So the correction adds "they were given no law". Humans are born under 'LAW", everything we do is according to LAWS. Do you mean they were not given a messenger from the God? Who alive can claim no messenger has come to them? All people get messengers. There was a group of jinn who listened to the message, they went back to WARN thier people. Where do you read that all of "them" will confirm and submit? Because that would haveto be what happens if your definition has any chance at survival.

Quote
Yet this reading(quran) tells us that jinn are both righteous and wicked.

Being given to one's passions, doesn't mean that one is necessarily evil. Are passions, inherently evil, is this your position, because it certainly isn't mine.

Hmm, I wonder how you got that from my statement, yet you claim I am changing your words. Instead of "passions" let us use emotions. Emotions are ESSENTIAL , they are what take our thoughts and manifest them into reality. Energy in motion , or E-Motion. As the story of solomon shows us we use these emotions for our benefit, we do not GIVE INTO EMOTIONS. So yes, it is the WRONG PATH to give into your emotions, it is the right path to control your emotions and make them work for you.

Malaika= controlled thoughts
shayteen= being controlled by emotions, product of rejecting thoughts
jinn= covered (the community within which we cannot literally see)

Quote
This CONTRADICTS your conclusion, why won't you stop following that path you are on when the proof is clear?

1. Clear proof?! LOL! Ayat 1850, from Allah Himself, tells humanity what Iblis was, yet, you want to re-work the ayat to mean, only Allah knows what, and then you tell me that you're offering clear proof?! Now, that is bizarre.

Yes, 1850 tells us that "iblis" was covered from sight, just as darkness covers objects so you cant see them. The term for that is "jinn". All of the maliaka are under this category. The God commanded them all to prostrate. THEY did except 'iblis". Who is the THEY" that did prostrate, and who is the EXCEPTION. What simple math this is.

2. Clear proof?! Ayats 1649-50, Allah Himself, tells humanity that, the dabbatin and the malaika, share three common things

a. they represent distinct creations.

b. they have no pride.

c. they do as commanded and do not disobey.

yet, you want to assert that one of the malaika rebelled, despite the fact that, ayats 1649-50 and 3873 makes that absolutely impossible.

I think you might be giving into "passions" there by blinding you from the clear truth. You and I are also "dabbatin", yet we know that there are hmans who do NOT do as they are commmanded. Why do you reject such clear evidence. You whole position is based on clear conjecture and is rigourously rejected by this reading(quran).

3. I pointed out to you that, the basic nature of the malaika is unknown, while the basic nature of Iblis is known, hence, if Iblis was of the malaika, then the malaika would have to have the same basic nature as Iblis -fire.

Excuse me one second, I have to go add some water to my "clay" fingers so I can continue typing.

4. I pointed out to you that, "all" cannot be followed with "except", because that would be a contradiction in terms.

There is NO god EXCEPT the God.

5. I, further, pointer out to you that, if the dabbatin and malaika could disobey, then, as with the Jinn/humans, they too are capable of evil. If they are capable of evil, then, where do we find any of the dabbatin or malaika, having had messengers sent to them? You have yet to resolve this question.

Which "dabbatin" or "malaika" have you sat down and interviewed with to be able to say this? This is ridiculous.

6. Is it rational to believe that, if Iblis was of the malaika that only he rebelled and no other malaika before or since him rebelled?

If you take the word "iblis" to be the title of a single PERSON, then I can see your dilemma, but when you understand the desription "iblis" as one of desperation who acts based on emotion(shayteen), then you can see that there are MILLIONS of "iblees" all over this world. Just as Adam is not a single person but a concept of ALL MANKIND, so is "iblees". Or did you think Iblis was some Human who did not get on the ground in front of some human named Adam?

Quote
But what is even more bizarre is that your idea is not that far from mine, which makes me feel like it is you who is giving into your passions, not wanting to be shown wrong after such a long debate. I hope you will humble yourself to the messengers decision.

Your grandiosity is quite apparent, but that is always the attitude of those who cannot concretely back up what they assert. And, what is really bizarre is that, you've offered absolutely no proof for your assertions; your so-called evidence, is purely conjectural/extrapolative in nature, what are you talking about?!

I am talking about the processes of the Mind, something that is beneficial to REAL LIFE, not some species of man hiding in a cave , or wherever you think this JINN/HUMAN can be found.

Quote
jinn is a description of the inner world, which is covered from sight. This is symbolic of your thoughts, which use emotions to manifest in the outer world. Energy in motion(EMOTION). One who gives into thier passions would be described as "iblis". The passions they give into would be a result of the shayteen(evil thoughts)

Where do you derive this analysis from?

Please read this thread from the beginning. There is more than enough proof listed. I have given you the root of Malaika (M-L-K), I have shown you how those who say they believe , when alone with thier shayteen(rejecting thoughts/emotion) they say they are really with them. I hav eshown you the verse that uses the derivitive of jinn to mean COVERED, I have shown that "iblis" is a description, like Adam, not a single person, I have shown that your "all" and "except" position does not stand up to the most important statement "There is NO (none) god EXCEPT the God", what more do you want?

Quote
(214) And if they met/found those who believed, they said "We believed". And if they were alone/together with to their shayteen (rejecting thoughts) they said "That we are with you, but we are mocking ."

LOL! My God, and you call me bizarre.

Did call you that?

I don't mean to laugh but

But you probably gave into your emotions.

...that you cannot tell that ayat 214 is talking about people congregating in derogation of Allah and truth, is simply stunning. Your conclusion, as it appears to me is that, the individual in that ayat, is talking to himself/herself. You have to definitely re-phrase your above analysis.

Please tell me your complete understanding of this verse then. My understanding can be seen and verified daily. I go around the corner to the so called "masjid", I see people smiling, greeting each other with "salamunalaikum brother!" and all sorts of things, but when they get home, or back on the corner with thier friends, thier rejecting thoughts(shayteen) come back and they go into the same degrading behavior.

Please let me hear your understanding of this verse.

Quote
But then we have those who submit, they learn to control thier thoughts. Thoughts that are controled NEVER disobey. They are decribed as MALIAKA, which comes form the root word M-L-K(control).

If a human being could control his/her thoughts to the extent which you are suggesting...then they would God.

What extent have I suggested? I don't think you will be able to find that. My position is that the JIHAD (inner struggle to control your thoughts, therfore behavior) continues. We are continously climbing the mountain. Rejecting thoughts get through from time to time, as the God stated, we are all created weak, but we must strive to purify our MINDS from wicked , rejecting thoughts.
(917-10) tells us the goal. The purification of the MIND(nafs). He who purifies it succeeds, he who corrupts it fails.

Allah says that, the malaika, do not disobey, however, humans do disobey. You are contradicting Allah and yourself all over the place.

No brother, you are just too busy trying to defend your position to see clearly. Where is the contradiction? We are dealing with two DESCRIPTIONS of jinn, malaika and shayteen. Malaika do not disobey because if they do, then they become shayteen, just like when a submitter rejects, he is no longer a sumbitter but a rejector or hypocrite.

Please clearly poin out the contradiction so we can settle this.

Tell me, for consistency sake, how do the dabbatin figure into all of this, given that, they and the malaika, are mentioned together in ayats 1649-50? What "thoughts" do they represent?

All of the "dabbatin" prostrate to the God, because thier thoughts are controlled(malaika), EXCEPT those who allow shayteen to contorl THEM, and are thus described as "iblees". Do you realize this message is talking about REAL LIFE? Not some imaginary characters?

Quote
Do you see how the reading confirms my understanding?

No, what I see from Al-Quran in regard to your analysis is the following

278 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

Peace to you D

Your analysis is flowery discourse and is devoid of decisiveness

Is that why you have not addressed any of my proofs? What happens to your 'all" and "except " rule when confronted with "there is no God but the God"? What happens when you read thatjinn are both righteous and wicked? You claim they are without LAW, but when a group of JINN sat and heard the reading, they were still jinn! D

The Jinn, it appears to me, are humans, who, are given to their passions and are without a law from Allah i.e the bulk of mankind.

So without any further delay, tell us what this LAW is that most have not recieved? I hope you do not say this book that has been called "al Quran" because this is not a requirement for the Garden, as we are told even those that call themselves Jew and Christian, ANY who have faith in the God, and the ending time, and live a righeous life will have victory. So what is the LAW that thise "human jinn" are waiting for? Further, how can there be righteous jinn if they are not following any LAW? Doesn't add up brother.

Tell me, do you see any relationship between words Gentiles and Jinns? How about Jinntiles?

Good grief! Gentile is one who has not recieved any guidance. Jinn is a description for the inner procces of the mind, they are covered(jinn).

Quote
(37) ...None knows its interpretation except the God. This is the SAME as saying "ALL do not know the interpretation EXCEPT the God... Do you agree to this simple logical statement?

This poses an interesting problem. I will have to think about it.

YES!!!!!!!!!!! Please do brother. Respectfully, please do! D

Anyway, why do you think Pickthall and Yusef Ali, translate these ayats differently concerning the word..."except"/"but"/"save"?

Honestly, after all we have witnessed from these "translators", who cares. Tell me what YOU think the word should be.

Lastly, above you stated that I called you bizarre. I do not think I did so, but if I did let my emotions control me in that nature, I apologize for the weakness. May the Lord grant me continued patience.

[unknownuser]

PEACE IDOL

No brother, you are just too busy trying to defend your position to see clearly. Where is the contradiction? We are dealing with two DESCRIPTIONS of jinn, malaika and shayteen. Malaika do not disobey because if they do, then they become shayteen, just like when a submitter rejects, he is no longer a sumbitter but a rejector or hypocrite. Please clearly poin out the contradiction so we can settle this.

You have yet to field a coherent Quranic arguement, regarding your following contradiction

Yes and no. Yes, we are of the dabbatan , in that, we too are moving creatures, if the ayat is translated to mean moving creatures, however, humans show pride and we disobey. The dabbatan in the above ayats do neither, hence, no, we are not dabbatan.

Now, are you prepared to assert the dabbatan and malaika are created of a scorching wind/fire and can be of the kafirun and fasiq? ]

I'm asking you, can the dabbatan be unbelievers, wicked individuals, hypocrites? Yes or no? The dabbatan and malaika are both in the same category, in that, neither disobey Allah or show pride, hence, once again, if you cannot show where one dabbatan, in the history of the world, was an unbeliever, a wicked individual , a hypocrite, then neither can the malaika be such.

I ask this, because the nature of the Jinn and men is known and both types of human make moral choices, show arrogance, disobey Allah , and have had messengers sent to them. Can the dabbatan be kafirun? Are you saying these same things apply to dabbatan and malaika? Given that, the dabbatan and malaika are mentioned together, do the malaika have the capacity to be unbelievers and wicked individuals and the dabbatan do not? Are these your positions, friend?

Hopefully, you will answer this time, sans, sarcasim and evasion.

[unknownuser]

PEACE IDOL

So the correction adds "they were given no law". Humans are born under 'LAW", everything we do is according to LAWS.

By law, I mean, people who were scriptureless i.e Torah, Injeel, Quran.

Do you mean they were not given a messenger from the God? Who alive can claim no messenger has come to them? All people get messengers.

Well, if all people get messengers, then the Jinn were human beings, because they were given messengers. The malaika and dabbatin were not given messengers, because they are non-human beings.

There was a group of jinn who listened to the message, they went back to WARN thier people. Where do you read that all of "them" will confirm and submit? Because that would haveto be what happens if your definition has any chance at survival

I don't know what your point is here, please rephrase. I never said anything about all of the Jinn submitting. What do you mean by..."Because that would haveto be what happens if your definition has any chance at survival"? What are you talking about?

Hmm, I wonder how you got that from my statement, yet you claim I am changing your words. Instead of "passions" let us use emotions. Emotions are ESSENTIAL , they are what take our thoughts and manifest them into reality. Energy in motion , or E-Motion. As the story of solomon shows us we use these emotions for our benefit, we do not GIVE INTO EMOTIONS. So yes, it is the WRONG PATH to give into your emotions, it is the right path to control your emotions and make them work for you.

Malaika= controlled thoughts
shayteen= being controlled by emotions, product of rejecting thoughts
jinn= covered (the community within which we cannot literally see)

As I said before, your above definitions are not apparent in Al-Quran. Please provide the ayat(s) which state the above.

Yes, 1850 tells us that "iblis" was covered from sight, just as darkness covers objects so you cant see them. The term for that is "jinn". All of the maliaka are under this category. The God commanded them all to prostrate. THEY did except 'iblis". Who is the THEY" that did prostrate, and who is the EXCEPTION. What simple math this is.

If all of the malaika are under this category -Jinn-, then all of the angels were created from a smokeless fire. Would you post the ayat where it says that the malaika were created of smokless fire, thanks. I believe that, the word janna, is the category which both malaika and Jinn come under, however, Jinn, is a creation apart from the malaika. 1850, clearly illustrates this.

I think you might be giving into "passions" there by blinding you from the clear truth. You and I are also "dabbatin", yet we know that there are hmans who do NOT do as they are commmanded. Why do you reject such clear evidence. You whole position is based on clear conjecture and is rigourously rejected by this reading(quran).

Well, there you have it! The following was an earlier post to you from me regarding this question

Yes and no. Yes, we are of the dabbatan, in that, we too are moving creatures, if the ayat is translated to mean moving creatures, however, humans show pride and we disobey. The dabbatan in the above ayats do neither, hence, no, we are not dabbatan.

What reason would you have NOT to translate "dabbatan" as all creatures?

(2445) And Allah has created every animal from water of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.

And...

Neither you nor I can answer the question "are there evil animals?" What we can answer is that animals CAN choose. I do not expect to find a verse regarding animal messangers in a message intended for humans.

That animals can choose isn't the issue. The issue is, can they make a moral choice? If they could make a moral choice, that is, to consciously obey or disobey Allah, then some animals would have to be evil and some good, just as with the Jinn...they take divergent paths some to the right and others to the contrary. Now, has Allah said that of the dabbatan? Simply saying they can choose is an arguement.

It is my understanding that, this is an analogy emphazing to man the great responsibility which is placed on him by Allah and that he would undoubtedly behave in an unjust manner.

I agree, but notice that it was not only humans that were given the CHOICE.

If it is an analogy, then, the inanimate things mentioned do not literally have a choice. You will take notice that, the dabbatan and angels are not mentioned in that ayat. Why do you think that is?

This thread is discussing one of those verses, but you have to understand the symbolisms, like Yusef was taught.

Thus far, anyway, I can distinguish between the literal and the figurative and between allusion and fact. You, however, continue to have difficulty in these areas.

None of them except the ones who fulfill the characteristics of "iblis". No, none of them have arrogance because once they do, they no longer are called "malaika". Simple

And none of them can have those characteristics, because they lack the capacity to make a moral decision. Can you show us one dabbatan, in the history of the world that, behaved like Iblis? If you cannot, then the maliaka, once again, cannot either, because Allah has put them in the same category with the dabbatan, that is, they do not disobey or show pride.

PREIST BOKMEI Nay! they wonder that there has come to them a warner from among themselves, so the unbelievers say This is a wonderful thing

8042 These are they who are unbelievers, the wicked.

Now, are you prepared to assert the dabbatan and malaika are created of a scorching wind/fire and can be of the kafirun and fasiq? ]

What?

I'm asking you, can the dabbatan be unbelievers, wicked individuals, hypocrites? Yes or no? The dabbatan and malaika are both in the same category, in that, neither disobey Allah or show pride, hence, once again, if you cannot show where one dabbatan, in the history of the world, was an unbeliever, a wicked individual , a hypocrite, then neither can the malaika be such.

I ask this, because the nature of the Jinn and men is known and both types of human make moral choices, show arrogance, disobey Allah , and have had messengers sent to them. Can the dabbatan be kafirun? Are you saying these same things apply to dabbatan and malaika? Given that, the dabbatan and malaika are mentioned together, do the malaika have the capacity to be unbelievers and wicked individuals and the dabbatan do not? Are these your positions, friend?

Excuse me one second, I have to go add some water to my "clay" fingers so I can continue typing.

You didn't address the question.

There is NO god EXCEPT the God.

I don't see "all" in that ayat.

Quote 5. I, further, pointer out to you that, if the dabbatin and malaika could disobey, then, as with the Jinn/humans, they too are capable of evil. If they are capable of evil, then, where do we find any of the dabbatin or malaika, having had messengers sent to them? You have yet to resolve this question.

Which "dabbatin" or "malaika" have you sat down and interviewed with to be able to say this? This is ridiculous.

Answer the question and save the judgements. If the dabbatin and malaika could disobey, then, as with the Jinn/humans, they too are capable of evil. If they are capable of evil, then, where do we find any of the dabbatin or malaika, having had messengers sent to them? You still have yet to resolve this question.

Quote 6. Is it rational to believe that, if Iblis was of the malaika that only he rebelled and no other malaika before or since him rebelled?

If you take the word "iblis" to be the title of a single PERSON, then I can see your dilemma, but when you understand the desription "iblis" as one of desperation who acts based on emotion(shayteen), then you can see that there are MILLIONS of "iblees" all over this world. Just as Adam is not a single person but a concept of ALL MANKIND, so is "iblees". Or did you think Iblis was some Human who did not get on the ground in front of some human named Adam?

Where in Al-Quran can I find where it says..."Just as Adam is not a single person but a concept of ALL MANKIND, so is "iblees"? Iblis, as I've stated from the very beginning, was a human being, who, became dominated by his passions. You are making my point. If, Iblis, was human, well, then he could not be a malaika or a non-human dabbatin, because the dabbatin and malaika do not disobey, period . You have yet to resolve your contradiction on this matter. Please do and save any cute/sarcastic remarks like last time, thanks.

I am talking about the processes of the Mind, something that is beneficial to REAL LIFE, not some species of man hiding in a cave , or wherever you think this JINN/HUMAN can be found.

I'm talking about MIND as well. Jinn, shaitan, and men, represent, for me anyway, different kinds of MINDS.

Where do you derive this analysis from?

Please read this thread from the beginning. There is more than enough proof listed. I have given you the root of Malaika (M-L-K), I have shown you how those who say they believe , when alone with thier shayteen(rejecting thoughts/emotion) they say they are really with them. I hav eshown you the verse that uses the derivitive of jinn to mean COVERED, I have shown that "iblis" is a description, like Adam, not a single person, I have shown that your "all" and "except" position does not stand up to the most important statement "There is NO (none) god EXCEPT the God", what more do you want?

Correction, you've offer no proof, only your conjectures/extrapolations and there is a difference.

quote...that you cannot tell that ayat 214 is talking about people congregating in derogation of Allah and truth, is simply stunning. Your conclusion, as it appears to me is that, the individual in that ayat, is talking to himself/herself. You have to definitely re-phrase your above analysis.

Please tell me your complete understanding of this verse then. My understanding can be seen and verified daily. I go around the corner to the so called "masjid", I see people smiling, greeting each other with "salamunalaikum brother!" and all sorts of things, but when they get home, or back on the corner with thier friends, thier rejecting thoughts(shayteen) come back and they go into the same degrading behavior.
Please let me hear your understanding of this verse.

Idol, what are you talking about?! I'm saying the same thing. You are really confused.

But then we have those who submit, they learn to control thier thoughts. Thoughts that are controled NEVER disobey. They are decribed as MALIAKA, which comes form the root word M-L-K(control).

What human being do you know of, who, never disobeyed Allah? If you can name one, then please show the ayats where that individual is defined as a malaika, not malik, but malaika.

quote...If a human being could control his/her thoughts to the extent which you are suggesting...then they would God.

What extent have I suggested? I don't think you will be able to find that. My position is that the JIHAD (inner struggle to control your thoughts, therfore behavior) continues. We are continously climbing the mountain. Rejecting thoughts get through from time to time, as the God stated, we are all created weak, but we must strive to purify our MINDS from wicked , rejecting thoughts. (917-10) tells us the goal. The purification of the MIND(nafs). He who purifies it succeeds, he who corrupts it fails.

You said "But then we have those who submit, they learn to control thier thoughts. Thoughts that are controled NEVER disobey. They are decribed as MALIAKA".

So, If a human being could control his/her thoughts to the extent which you are suggesting ...then they would God.

Quote Allah says that, the malaika, do not disobey, however, humans do disobey. You are contradicting Allah and yourself all over the place.

Quote
Tell me, for consistency sake, how do the dabbatin figure into all of this, given that, they and the malaika, are mentioned together in ayats 1649-50? What "thoughts" do they represent?

All of the "dabbatin" prostrate to the God, because thier thoughts are controlled(malaika), EXCEPT those who allow shayteen to contorl THEM, and are thus described as "iblees". Do you realize this message is talking about REAL LIFE? Not some imaginary characters?

So, a jellyfish has thoughts and can become shaitanic, is this really your position?

Is that why you have not addressed any of my proofs? What happens to your 'all" and "except " rule when confronted with "there is no God but the God"? What happens when you read thatjinn are both righteous and wicked? You claim they are without LAW, but when a group of JINN sat and heard the reading, they were still jinn!

The only thing I haven't responded to yet is...the "none" question you posed. I know the Jinn are both righteous and not, I posted that to you, however, they were scriptureless either by not being given one or rejecting what they were given.

So without any further delay, tell us what this LAW is that most have not recieved? I hope you do not say this book that has been called "al Quran" because this is not a requirement for the Garden, as we are told even those that call themselves Jew and Christian, ANY who have faith in the God, and the ending time, and live a righeous life will have victory. So what is the LAW that thise "human jinn" are waiting for? Further, how can there be righteous jinn if they are not following any LAW? Doesn't add up brother.

Torah, Injeel and Quran...are all books of Law/Scripture.

Quote
Tell me, do you see any relationship between words Gentiles and Jinns? How about Jinntiles?

Good grief! Gentile is one who has not recieved any guidance. Jinn is a description for the inner procces of the mind, they are covered(jinn).

Well, you just made my point. What guidance was given to the Jinn, before and since, Adam?

Quote Anyway, why do you think Pickthall and Yusef Ali, translate these ayats differently concerning the word..."except"/"but"/"save"?

Honestly, after all we have witnessed from these "translators", who cares. Tell me what YOU think the word should be.

I'm asking you why one translator, Pickthall, didn't say..."none" and the other one did?

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you,

You have yet to field a coherent Quranic arguement, regarding your following contradiction

Yes and no. Yes, we are of the dabbatan , in that, we too are moving creatures, if the ayat is translated to mean moving creatures, however, humans show pride and we disobey. The dabbatan in the above ayats do neither, hence, no, we are not dabbatan.

If you were to apply the WHOLE of the book to your dilemma, you would find the solution. There are EXCEPTIONS. The malaika prostrated EXCEPT iblis and the dabbatan do as they are commanded EXCEPT the ones who can be described as "iblis".

Now, are you prepared to assert the dabbatan and malaika are created of a scorching wind/fire and can be of the kafirun and fasiq? ]

Yes.

I'm asking you, can the dabbatan be unbelievers, wicked individuals, hypocrites? Yes or no?

I cannot sit down and have a conversation with animals, so I cannot answer regarding ANIMALS, but regarding dabbatan, YES, humans are capable of the above.

The dabbatan and malaika are both in the same category, in that, neither disobey Allah or show pride, hence, once again, if you cannot show where one dabbatan, in the history of the world, was an unbeliever, a wicked individual , a hypocrite, then neither can the malaika be such.

Pharoah

I ask this, because the nature of the Jinn and men is known and both types of human make moral choices, show arrogance, disobey Allah , and have had messengers sent to them.

Let me stop you here, if both human humans and jinn humans can be good and bad, what is the difference between the two? Please tell me in clear terms the difference between these two types of humans (according to your understanding).

Can the dabbatan be kafirun?

Yes, humans are of the dabbatin.

Are you saying these same things apply to dabbatan and malaika?

Malaika are found within dabbatan.

Given that, the dabbatan and malaika are mentioned together, do the malaika have the capacity to be unbelievers and wicked individuals and the dabbatan do not?

Yes, as shown by "iblis".

Are these your positions, friend?

These are the positions stated in this reading.

Hopefully, you will answer this time, sans, sarcasim and evasion.

These are the same answers I gave you before.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you PB,

Quote
So the correction adds "they were given no law". Humans are born under 'LAW", everything we do is according to LAWS.

By law, I mean, people who were scriptureless i.e Torah, Injeel, Quran.

So you are saying that jinn= gentiles? Are you saying that the God commanded the maliaka to prostrate to Adam, and a gentile was also there and was expected to obey this command?

Quote
Do you mean they were not given a messenger from the God? Who alive can claim no messenger has come to them? All people get messengers.

Well, if all people get messengers, then the Jinn were human beings, because they were given messengers. The malaika and dabbatin were not given messengers, because they are non-human beings.

Brother, humans ARE dabbatin, please stop trying to talk around this clear fact.

Quote
There was a group of jinn who listened to the message, they went back to WARN thier people. Where do you read that all of "them" will confirm and submit? Because that would haveto be what happens if your definition has any chance at survival

I don't know what your point is here, please rephrase. I never said anything about all of the Jinn submitting. What do you mean by..."Because that would haveto be what happens if your definition has any chance at survival"? What are you talking about?

Your definition of jinn being humans who give into thier passions does not work if jinn continue to be jinn after hearing the message.

Quote
Yes, 1850 tells us that "iblis" was covered from sight, just as darkness covers objects so you cant see them. The term for that is "jinn". All of the maliaka are under this category. The God commanded them all to prostrate. THEY did except 'iblis". Who is the THEY" that did prostrate, and who is the EXCEPTION. What simple math this is.

If all of the malaika are under this category -Jinn-, then all of the angels were created from a smokeless fire. Would you post the ayat where it says that the malaika were created of smokless fire, thanks.

The verse that says iblis was the malaika who did not prostrate.

I believe that, the word janna, is the category which both malaika and Jinn come under, however, Jinn, is a creation apart from the malaika. 1850, clearly illustrates this.

Yes, I am aware of your position

Quote
I think you might be giving into "passions" there by blinding you from the clear truth. You and I are also "dabbatin", yet we know that there are hmans who do NOT do as they are commmanded. Why do you reject such clear evidence. You whole position is based on clear conjecture and is rigourously rejected by this reading(quran).

Well, there you have it! The following was an earlier post to you from me regarding this question

Yes and no. Yes, we are of the dabbatan, in that, we too are moving creatures, if the ayat is translated to mean moving creatures, however, humans show pride and we disobey. The dabbatan in the above ayats do neither, hence, no, we are not dabbatan.

What reason would you have NOT to translate "dabbatan" as all creatures?

(2445) And Allah has created every animal from water of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.

And...

Quote
Neither you nor I can answer the question "are there evil animals?" What we can answer is that animals CAN choose. I do not expect to find a verse regarding animal messangers in a message intended for humans.

That animals can choose isn't the issue. The issue is, can they make a moral choice? If they could make a moral choice, that is, to consciously obey or disobey Allah, then some animals would have to be evil and some good, just as with the Jinn...they take divergent paths some to the right and others to the contrary. Now, has Allah said that of the dabbatan? Simply saying they can choose is an arguement.

It is my understanding that, this is an analogy emphazing to man the great responsibility which is placed on him by Allah and that he would undoubtedly behave in an unjust manner.

Quote
I agree, but notice that it was not only humans that were given the CHOICE.

If it is an analogy, then, the inanimate things mentioned do not literally have a choice. You will take notice that, the dabbatan and angels are not mentioned in that ayat. Why do you think that is?

What are you talking about? Why have you re posted part of our discussion? Nothing is changed. Humans are part of dabbatin, so yes, some dabbatin do reject. What was the point of the above re posting?

Quote
This thread is discussing one of those verses, but you have to understand the symbolisms, like Yusef was taught.

Thus far, anyway, I can distinguish between the literal and the figurative and between allusion and fact. You, however, continue to have difficulty in these areas.

I'm listening.

Quote
None of them except the ones who fulfill the characteristics of "iblis". No, none of them have arrogance because once they do, they no longer are called "malaika". Simple

And none of them can have those characteristics, because they lack the capacity to make a moral decision. Can you show us one dabbatan, in the history of the world that, behaved like Iblis? If you cannot, then the maliaka, once again, cannot either, because Allah has put them in the same category with the dabbatan, that is, they do not disobey or show pride.

Pharoah

PREIST BOKMEI Nay! they wonder that there has come to them a warner from among themselves, so the unbelievers say This is a wonderful thing

8042 These are they who are unbelievers, the wicked.

Now, are you prepared to assert the dabbatan and malaika are created of a scorching wind/fire and can be of the kafirun and fasiq? ]

Yes.

Quote
What?

I'm asking you, can the dabbatan be unbelievers, wicked individuals, hypocrites? Yes or no? The dabbatan and malaika are both in the same category, in that, neither disobey Allah or show pride, hence, once again, if you cannot show where one dabbatan, in the history of the world, was an unbeliever, a wicked individual , a hypocrite, then neither can the malaika be such.

How many times will you ask the same question which I have answered a billion times?

Quote
There is NO god EXCEPT the God.

I don't see "all" in that ayat.

Do you see NONE?

Quote 5. I, further, pointer out to you that, if the dabbatin and malaika could disobey, then, as with the Jinn/humans, they too are capable of evil. If they are capable of evil, then, where do we find any of the dabbatin or malaika, having had messengers sent to them? You have yet to resolve this question.

Since humans are dabbatin, I will point you to this reading to listen tothe stories of thier messengers.

Quote
Which "dabbatin" or "malaika" have you sat down and interviewed with to be able to say this? This is ridiculous.

Answer the question and save the judgements. If the dabbatin and malaika could disobey, then, as with the Jinn/humans, they too are capable of evil. If they are capable of evil, then, where do we find any of the dabbatin or malaika, having had messengers sent to them? You still have yet to resolve this question.

"Musa" was a messenger sent to the human dabbatin.

Quote 6. Is it rational to believe that, if Iblis was of the malaika that only he rebelled and no other malaika before or since him rebelled?

Quote
If you take the word "iblis" to be the title of a single PERSON, then I can see your dilemma, but when you understand the desription "iblis" as one of desperation who acts based on emotion(shayteen), then you can see that there are MILLIONS of "iblees" all over this world. Just as Adam is not a single person but a concept of ALL MANKIND, so is "iblees". Or did you think Iblis was some Human who did not get on the ground in front of some human named Adam?

Where in Al-Quran can I find where it says..."Just as Adam is not a single person but a concept of ALL MANKIND, so is "iblees"?

Good grief Charlie Brown! Use some reason! Have I asked you to show me the verse that says jinn are gentiles? Its ridiculous. We must reason to get the whole picture. I gather that you take iblis to be a single entity that exsists until the end of time?

Iblis, as I've stated from the very beginning, was a human being, who, became dominated by his passions. You are making my point. If, Iblis, was human, well, then he could not be a malaika or a non-human dabbatin

lol Non -human dabbatin, huh? Why the need for clarification? Because it is the only way to get past this "hurdle" in your position.

, because the dabbatin and malaika do not disobey, period .

You forgot to say NON HUman Dabbatin.

You have yet to resolve your contradiction on this matter. Please do and save any cute/sarcastic remarks like last time, thanks.

The only contradiction here is the one that causes you to use the phrase "non human dabbatin".

Quote
I am talking about the processes of the Mind, something that is beneficial to REAL LIFE, not some species of man hiding in a cave , or wherever you think this JINN/HUMAN can be found.

I'm talking about MIND as well. Jinn, shaitan, and men, represent, for me anyway, different kinds of MINDS.

Good.

Quote
Where do you derive this analysis from?

Quote
Please read this thread from the beginning. There is more than enough proof listed. I have given you the root of Malaika (M-L-K), I have shown you how those who say they believe , when alone with thier shayteen(rejecting thoughts/emotion) they say they are really with them. I hav eshown you the verse that uses the derivitive of jinn to mean COVERED, I have shown that "iblis" is a description, like Adam, not a single person, I have shown that your "all" and "except" position does not stand up to the most important statement "There is NO (none) god EXCEPT the God", what more do you want?

Correction, you've offer no proof, only your conjectures/extrapolations and there is a difference.

Ohh I see.

quote...that you cannot tell that ayat 214 is talking about people congregating in derogation of Allah and truth, is simply stunning. Your conclusion, as it appears to me is that, the individual in that ayat, is talking to himself/herself. You have to definitely re-phrase your above analysis.

What does ALONE mean in 214? I hope this is not going to be another "EXCEPT" problem.

Quote
Please tell me your complete understanding of this verse then. My understanding can be seen and verified daily. I go around the corner to the so called "masjid", I see people smiling, greeting each other with "salamunalaikum brother!" and all sorts of things, but when they get home, or back on the corner with thier friends, thier rejecting thoughts(shayteen) come back and they go into the same degrading behavior.
Please let me hear your understanding of this verse.

Idol, what are you talking about?! I'm saying the same thing. You are really confused.

No, we are not saying the same thing. I am saying that shayteen equals rejecting thoughts, so the oerson , when they return to thier evil deeds can be all by themselves, but still with thier SHAYTEEN (rejecting thoughts), whereas you seem to be taking shayteen to be people.

Quote
But then we have those who submit, they learn to control thier thoughts. Thoughts that are controled NEVER disobey. They are decribed as MALIAKA, which comes form the root word M-L-K(control).

What human being do you know of, who, never disobeyed Allah? If you can name one, then please show the ayats where that individual is defined as a malaika, not malik, but malaika.

WHat? Where did I say there is one who never disobeyed? I said that a controlled thought NEVER disobeyes, if the thought becomes uncntrooled, it is no longer described as "malaika", but instead becomes "shaytaan".

quote...If a human being could control his/her thoughts to the extent which you are suggesting...then they would God.

Quote
What extent have I suggested? I don't think you will be able to find that. My position is that the JIHAD (inner struggle to control your thoughts, therfore behavior) continues. We are continously climbing the mountain. Rejecting thoughts get through from time to time, as the God stated, we are all created weak, but we must strive to purify our MINDS from wicked , rejecting thoughts. (917-10) tells us the goal. The purification of the MIND(nafs). He who purifies it succeeds, he who corrupts it fails.

You said "But then we have those who submit, they learn to control thier thoughts. Thoughts that are controled NEVER disobey. They are decribed as MALIAKA".

So, If a human being could control his/her thoughts to the extent which you are suggesting ...then they would God.

It is a description, it changes, just like submitter and rejector. A thought can be "malaika" which NEVER disobeys, because if it does, it is no longer a "malaika" but instead a "shaytaan".

Quote Allah says that, the malaika, do not disobey, however, humans do disobey. You are contradicting Allah and yourself all over the place.

Quote
Tell me, for consistency sake, how do the dabbatin figure into all of this, given that, they and the malaika, are mentioned together in ayats 1649-50? What "thoughts" do they represent?

Quote
All of the "dabbatin" prostrate to the God, because thier thoughts are controlled(malaika), EXCEPT those who allow shayteen to contorl THEM, and are thus described as "iblees". Do you realize this message is talking about REAL LIFE? Not some imaginary characters?

So, a jellyfish has thoughts and can become shaitanic, is this really your position?

I don't know any jellyfish, but humans do all the time.

Quote
Is that why you have not addressed any of my proofs? What happens to your 'all" and "except " rule when confronted with "there is no God but the God"? What happens when you read thatjinn are both righteous and wicked? You claim they are without LAW, but when a group of JINN sat and heard the reading, they were still jinn!

The only thing I haven't responded to yet is...the "none" question you posed. I know the Jinn are both righteous and not, I posted that to you, however, they were scriptureless either by not being given one or rejecting what they were given.

So I guess you will never address the "NONE" question.

Quote
Tell me, do you see any relationship between words Gentiles and Jinns? How about Jinntiles?

Quote
Good grief! Gentile is one who has not recieved any guidance. Jinn is a description for the inner procces of the mind, they are covered(jinn).

Well, you just made my point. What guidance was given to the Jinn, before and since, Adam?

The God's truthful message, which they sat and heard, and continue to sit and here.

Quote Anyway, why do you think Pickthall and Yusef Ali, translate these ayats differently concerning the word..."except"/"but"/"save"?

Quote
Honestly, after all we have witnessed from these "translators", who cares. Tell me what YOU think the word should be.

I'm asking you why one translator, Pickthall, didn't say..."none" and the other one did?

What part of "who cares" don't you understand. Lets talk about what it is, not why someone else wrote it that way.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you PB,

I would like to shorten the posts so they can be easily followed.

Please just tell me EXACTLY what you think jinn are, are they people who have not heard the message, or are they people who give into thier passions, or both.

[unknownuser]

PEACE IDOL

PREISTYou have yet to field a coherent Quranic arguement, regarding your following contradiction Yes and no. Yes, we are of the dabbatan , in that, we too are moving creatures, if the ayat is translated to mean moving creatures, however, humans show pride and we disobey. The dabbatan in the above ayats do neither, hence, no, we are not dabbatan.

...Non -human dabbatin, huh? Why the need for clarification? Because it is the only way to get past this "hurdle" in your position...

I was compelled to make this clarification only because you insist on playing games.

If you were to apply the WHOLE of the book to your dilemma, you would find the solution. There are EXCEPTIONS. The malaika prostrated EXCEPT iblis and the dabbatan do as they are commanded EXCEPT the ones who can be described as "iblis".

Nope, sorry, you have not resolved your contradiction. Listen, if you want to accept that, humans, are of the dabbatin, in that, they are of the animal kingdom, then you must accept that, the dabbatin then, form TWO MAIN GROUPS--HUMAN AND NON-HUMAN.

LOL! You've defined Iblis as a malaika, a Jinn, a thought, and a dabbatin! Left to you, soon, he will be a N. Y. Yankee!

1. NON-HUMAN DABBATIN These are the dabbatin mentioned in 1649-50, which do not disobey Allah's commands and have no pride. They are the animal like centipedes, roaches, frogs, eels, apes, etc. There are no exceptions to this category. Incorporated in ayats 1649-50, are the malaika, hence, as with the non-human dabbatin, they, likewise, do not disobey Allah or show pride.

2. HUMAN DABBATIN These, "dawbbatin", can and do disobey Allah, and have pride. 822 and 855.

If Iblis, as you claimed above, is a dabbatin, then, which category does he fall under..there is no third dabbatin category?

Which category does Pharoah fall under?

Which category does the jellyfish fall under?

The verse that says iblis was the malaika who did not prostrate.

Now, you are just outright misrepresenting Allah and His Quran. Nowhere, repeat nowhere, does any ayat state directly/clearly that Iblis was a malaika. However, their are ayats which state directly/clearly that he was a disbeliever and a Jinn, but none state directly/clealry that he was a malaika. You still don't get it that, 234 and others, allude to his being a malaika, but none actually state that outright that he was. Ayat 1850, however, actually states directly/clearly that he was a Jinn.

PREIST Now, are you prepared to assert the dabbatan and malaika are created of a scorching wind/fire and can be of the kafirun and fasiq?

Yes.

??? Idol, where does Allah, define the malaika as being created of a scorching wind or that they are dabbatin? What are you talking about?! Listen, Allah, says this

2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.

4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Apostle and the Book which He has revealed to His Apostle and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His apostles and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

Now, how could Allah, tell us to believe in the angels, which, btw, He incorporates in the same ayat with Himself, His Quran, and His Messengers, if some of them could disobey?!?!? If one, so-called malaika, could disobey Allah, then what is preventing others from doing so or having done so? How, then, can anyone trust the above two ayats? You'd better re-think your position, because you are assigning to Allah's malaika, something which He has not i.e. that they can disobey Him, hence, you are slandering Allah and His malaika.

PREIST I'm asking you, can the dabbatan be unbelievers, wicked individuals, hypocrites? Yes or no?

I cannot sit down and have a conversation with animals, so I cannot answer regarding ANIMALS, but regarding dabbatan, YES, humans are capable of the above.

I didn't ask you about humans, I asked you about non-human dabbatin. Your answer is disingenuous and haram, per this ayat

733. Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.

You know full well that the non-human dabbatin i.e., centipedes, cannot be kafirs, fasiqs, hypocrites, liars, have pride, disobey Allah etc., because if they could, then, Allah, as with Jinn and men, would have had to have sent them messengers with scriptures/good news and warnings? What messengers do you know of, are of the non-human dabbatin?

Oh, btw, don't even try to use the last line in the above ayat to support your position, because in 1649-50, Allah, has stated clearly that the non-human dabbatin do not disobey Him or have pride.

PREIST The dabbatan and malaika are both in the same category, in that, neither disobey Allah or show pride, hence, once again, if you cannot show where one dabbatan, in the history of the world, was an unbeliever, a wicked individual , a hypocrite, then neither can the malaika be such.

Pharoah

Pharoah, is of the human dabbatin, 1649-50, is referring to the non-human dabbatin, hence, Pharoah, is disqualified. Please tell me of a non-human dabbatin, who, was a hypocrite, fasiq, liar, etc.

PREIST I ask this, because the nature of the Jinn and men is known and both types of human make moral choices, show arrogance, disobey Allah , and have had messengers sent to them.

Let me stop you here, if both human humans and jinn humans can be good and bad, what is the difference between the two? Please tell me in clear terms the difference between these two types of humans (according to your understanding).

PREIST
Can the dabbatan be kafirun?

Yes, humans are of the dabbatin.

Man, you just love to play games, fine then, can non-human dabbatin be kafirs?

PREIST
Are you saying these same things apply to dabbatan and malaika? Given that, the dabbatan and malaika are mentioned together, do the malaika have the capacity to be unbelievers and wicked individuals and the dabbatan do not?

Yes, as shown by "iblis".

Then you are in serious contradiction to ayats

2177 and 4136.

So I guess you will never address the "NONE" question.

I tried to when I asked this question "I'm asking you why one translator, Pickthall, didn't say..."none" and the other one did"?, and this was your response

What part of "who cares" don't you understand. Lets talk about what it is, not why someone else wrote it that way. shock

Your comments, clearly show that your position is a confused and desperate one and can no longer defended. It appears to me that, you are simply saying anything which comes to your mind now. I hope you will pull back from this type of thinking. Looking forward to a reasoned response.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you,

Please do this for me, just tell me EXACTLY what a "jinn" is. I am not going to reply to these long posts so that you can hide your weak position in a bunch of words. State PLAINLY what a "jinn" is. Please also show how your definition fits with the root of the word.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you PB,

My apologies to you brother. I have gotten out of my original nature of peace. I looked over the last few posts and see that my language and character is out of line and for that I apologize.

My position however remains the same and I would still like you to give me ONLY a clear definition of the following words so that I can debate them. I want to cut down the size of these posts so that everyone can follow along.

jinn=
malaika=
shayteen=

[unknownuser]

Peace,

Please do this for me, just tell me EXACTLY what a "jinn" is. I am not going to reply to these long posts so that you can hide your weak position in a bunch of words. State PLAINLY what a "jinn" is. Please also show how your definition fits with the root of the word.

Good Lord, this topic has stretched to 20 pages and has been thoroughly and meticulously laid out and explained by Priest_Bokmei, (and others) masha-Allah, detailing verse by verse, yet Kyle's insistence to misunderstand.

Kyle, as pointed out many times, not only do you re-word, re-phrase, re-name, contradict and conjecture/extrapolate verses of the Quran, but you seem to continously do the same with others explanations as well, injecting irrelevant, inconsistent and meaningless versions of your own, thus your relentless lack of understanding and confusion. Relax dude, while carefully understanding the entire Quran, as well as others' reasonings, with dedication and thought, rather than hip-hopping back and forth hopelessly.

LOL! You've defined Iblis as a malaika, a Jinn, a thought, and a dabbatin! Left to you, soon, he will be a N. Y. Yankee!
lol

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Danish,

It seems you are convinced of PB's opinion, so you do not see my position, which is fine, but to say that PB has meticulously laid out anything is a far stretch. I am trying to narrow the conversation down so that it will be easier to follow. Then hopefully instead of laughing you will see the inconsistency.

Danish, since you understand PB's position, please address why "There is NO(none) God but the God" does not fall into his rule of "All " and "Except", which even the dictionaries reject.

LOL! You've defined Iblis as a malaika, a Jinn, a thought, and a dabbatin! Left to you, soon, he will be a N. Y. Yankee!

1. malaika- since it was the malaika whom the God ordered, and THEY prostrated EXCEPT iblis, and iblis was held accountable for not prostrating, that makes iblis a malaika.

2. jinn- since you follow PB, I am sure I don't need to explain this one, but I will. Jinn means "covered". It is a description of ALL of the beings which cannot be seen.

3. thought- this whole story is SYMBOLIC of the thought processes that we have going on all the time. "Iblis" (desperate) is the description of a mindset that results from rejecting thoughts(shayteen).

4. dabbatin- My entire argument is above and has remained the same. Please show me where I called "iblis" a dabbatan. Dabatan are the creature os the earth including humans. A human can have an "iblis" mentality.

5. N.Y. Yankee- this was an antictode to keep you amused by PB. Looks like it worked. I would have said Philadelphis Eagle, but it still would have been a JOKE.

So Danish, where is the hip hopping back and forth hopelessly that you speak of? My position is not only consistent, but it is in the same context as the ROOTS of these words in question. How do the ROOT MEANINGS fit into the understanding that you and PB share?

Is PB a real priest? Because it seems like he has following of "believers" with him. No offense intended, that is just how it appears and I wanted to be sure.

Lastly, Danish, if you would like to , you can also give me your definition of the terms I listed so we can narrow down this conversation. Yes, it is 20 pages, but that is because no one is forced to answer the questions posed. The posts start getting long so as to avoid the pertinent questions. I intent to resolve that.

[unknownuser]

Peace Kyle,

It seems you are convinced of PB's opinion, so you do not see my position, which is fine, but to say that PB has meticulously laid out anything is a far stretch.

20 pages and including other threads, detailing, explaining, reasoning, counter-reasoning, is truely far stretched (glad you didn?t mention far-fetched), overboarding and repetitious for the ones who refuse to or cannot understand. PB has no doubt, meticulously done an excellent job.

The Quran is crystal clear about angels, in that they DO NOT DISOBEY GOD'S COMMANDS AND DO WHATEVER THEY ARE TOLD AND THAT, WE, AS HUMANS, ARE COMMANDED TO BELEIVE IN AND OBEY THEM. Yet you insist that they do disobey by bringing bizzare jinnic theories. Quran is explicit about Angels who DO NOT DISOBEY and is explicit on Jinns and Humans who DO DISOBEY. Now what's so difficult about this that you cannot understand? No need to bring the "exceptions rule", it doesn't apply here and would contradict the above. Besides, it?s a matter of contextual understanding. If angels can disobey GOD, then can you believe in and obey the angels as per GOD?s commands?

The problem is that you tend to stray-off and venture out to Mars, hence not being able to clearly understand what's being said. For example, I talked about a "JUNGLE" and you narrowed it down to one-on-one human office (boss and employee); I talked about "Man" (male and female) and you narrowed down to males only and their penises shock and brought about bizzare scenario of a pet store. This is how you lack understanding of others? explanations, travel to Mars and extrapolate? One of the reasons why you refuse to understand that Iblis, being a jinn, couldn?t have been an angel, given the explicit/clear verses of the Quran. No wonder you love to narrow down conversations.

I am trying to narrow the conversation down so that it will be easier to follow.

Kyle, what good would summarized/shortened conversations do when the lengthy, more detailed ones seem misfits to you. Besides, your narrowed conversations tend to be more faulty, as explained earlier.

Then hopefully instead of laughing you will see the inconsistency.

The laugh was not on your inconsistencies but the way NY Yankee was bought up. As a matter of fact, inconsistencies, contradictions and Martian theories in your explanations already exists abundantly. I have no desire to collect all your posts and pin-point the hip-hopping effects. I?ve seen enough, to tell you truth.

LOL! You've defined Iblis as a malaika, a Jinn, a thought, and a dabbatin! Left to you, soon, he will be a N. Y. Yankee! lol

Danish, since you understand PB's position, please address why "There is NO(none) God but the God" does not fall into his rule of "All " and "Except", which even the dictionaries reject.

How does "NO god BUT GOD" correlate/support "All angels except Iblis"? You have no idea what you are talking about. Would it deem fit to say "All gods but GOD" or "No angels except Iblis"? Do you understand the differences? Gosh, Kyle, please stop bringing silly adventurous notions, wasting unecessary time and efforts, hip-hopping back and forth.

1. malaika- since it was the malaika whom the God ordered, and THEY prostrated EXCEPT iblis, and iblis was held accountable for not prostrating, that makes iblis a malaika.

Poor or lack of contemplation. Contradicts GOD?s Words and even your very own. Malaika DO NOT have the power to disobey and are commanded to do whatever they are told, as per the Quran. Thus, if they are commanded to prostrate, they ALL did. No ifs, buts, excepts or otherwise. Comprende!!! Iblis was a jinn among other spirits, he disobeyed and that's the exception.

2. jinn- since you follow PB, I am sure I don't need to explain this one, but I will. Jinn means "covered". It is a description of ALL of the beings which cannot be seen.

Please, make up your mind Kyle, is jinn a being, a thought, a cover, a behaviour or what? Stop guessing/conjecturing. Or would he become a NY Yankee, as PB implied. lol

3. thought- this whole story is SYMBOLIC of the thought processes that we have going on all the time. "Iblis" (desperate) is the description of a mindset that results from rejecting thoughts(shayteen).

So now an angel named Iblis who DISOBEYS GOD?s COMMANDS, yet we are told that angels DO NOT DISOBEY GOD?S COMMANDS, suddenly becomes desperate and rejects GOD?s commands and remains an angel? Therefore we must believe in and obey Iblis as well, since he is an angel. Hmmm, adventurous Martian theory.

4. dabbatin- My entire argument is above and has remained the same. Please show me where I called "iblis" a dabbatan. Dabatan are the creature os the earth including humans. A human can have an "iblis" mentality.

If dabbattan are creatures of the earth and Iblis was a malaika, who was thrown down on earth, then wouldn?t Iblis become a dabbattan, a creature on earth, as you call it. Or is it another one of your Martian theories.

5. N.Y. Yankee- this was an antictode to keep you amused by PB. Looks like it worked. I would have said Philadelphis Eagle, but it still would have been a JOKE.

Actually, it worked pretty well, the NY Yankee was addressed to amuse YOU, should the jinn become one. See how you re-word, re-phrase and bring about your own Philadelphis Eagle. Tricky, isn?t it? Hey, I'll laugh to this one as well, since the NY Yankee became a Philadelphis Eagle lol .

So Danish, where is the hip hopping back and forth hopelessly that you speak of?

See above, read and understand your own previous posts and others as well throughout this forum, you'll find your invented hip-hop dances, which btw, you yourself can't seem to understand. Sorry brother, but that's what it is.

Is PB a real priest? Because it seems like he has following of "believers" with him. No offense intended, that is just how it appears and I wanted to be sure.

I sense jealousy and extreme sarcasm on your part. Stick to the basics. I follow the message and PB (as well as few others) does a good job at it, i.e. sending out the message with proper understanding and reasoning.

Lastly, Danish, if you would like to , you can also give me your definition of the terms I listed so we can narrow down this conversation. Yes, it is 20 pages, but that is because no one is forced to answer the questions posed. The posts start getting long so as to avoid the pertinent questions. I intent to resolve that.

It seems very unlikely that you will resolve this, simply because you are adamant and persistent upon contradictions, inconsistencies, extrapolations and wishy-washy notions which you bring about to prove your case and then insist that there isn't one.

GOD bless and GOD help!

[unknownuser]

PEACE IDOL

Danish's, reply to you was an excellent summation, what more do you require, at this point?

Anyway...

Did you bother to really reflect on these ayats or did you just blow past them? In light of these ayats, how can you possibly take the position you do? Listen, I know you don't want to admit that you're wrong, but to assign rebellion to Allah's malaika, is haram.

2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.

4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Apostle and the Book which He has revealed to His Apostle and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His apostles and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

Now, how could Allah, tell us to believe in the angels, which, btw, He incorporates in the same ayat with Himself, His Quran, and His Messengers, if some of them could disobey?!?!? If one, so-called malaika, could disobey Allah, then what is preventing others from doing so or having done so? How, then, can anyone trust the above two ayats? You'd better re-think your position, because you are assigning to Allah's malaika, something which He has not i.e. that they can disobey Him, hence, you are slandering Allah and His malaika.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Danish,

20 pages and including other threads, detailing, explaining, reasoning, counter-reasoning, is truely far stretched (glad you didn?t mention far-fetched), overboarding and repetitious for the ones who refuse to or cannot understand. PB has no doubt, meticulously done an excellent job.

You are welcome to your own opinion, if that is where your reasoning takes you. All of PB/dhuls evidence has been shown incorrect and there are several unanswered contradictions. Just because he ignores the questions or anwers them incorrectly for 20 pages does not equal that a "meticulous job" has been done.

The Quran is crystal clear about angels,

Its no wonder you both cannot grasp this concept when you cannot even give up saying "angels", what is an "angel"? The word "malaika" in NO WAY can be translated as "angel". Why don't you do yourself a favor and study the root word "M-L-K" and see how its derivatives are used.

in that they DO NOT DISOBEY GOD'S COMMANDS AND DO WHATEVER THEY ARE TOLD AND THAT, WE, AS HUMANS, ARE COMMANDED TO BELEIVE IN AND OBEY THEM. Yet you insist that they do disobey by bringing bizzare jinnic theories. Quran is explicit about Angels who DO NOT DISOBEY and is explicit on Jinns and Humans who DO DISOBEY. Now what's so difficult about this that you cannot understand? No need to bring the "exceptions rule", it doesn't apply here and would contradict the above.

Why does not the exception rule apply here? I have bolded that question because I think you might try to go around it. Please give us the criteria for when we can and cannot use the "exception rule". Lets look at it again;

They prostrated EXCEPT iblis. Who is THEY? Has anyone answered this question yet?

WHO IS THEY?

Besides, it?s a matter of contextual understanding. If angels can disobey GOD, then can you believe in and obey the angels as per GOD?s commands?

I don't know what "angels" are. I am discussing "those controlled" (malaika), from the root M-L-K which deals with control. I don't recall being told to obey "malaika", I am told to have faith in them, and yes, I do have faith in my controlled thoughts that come from the God. I also know that if I give the CONTROL over to my emotions/passions, I am on the wrong path.

The problem is that you tend to stray-off and venture out to Mars, hence not being able to clearly understand what's being said. For example, I talked about a "JUNGLE" and you narrowed it down to one-on-one human office (boss and employee); I talked about "Man" (male and female) and you narrowed down to males only and their penises and brought about bizzare scenario of a pet store. This is how you lack understanding of others? explanations, travel to Mars and extrapolate? One of the reasons why you refuse to understand that Iblis, being a jinn, couldn?t have been an angel, given the explicit/clear verses of the Quran. No wonder you love to narrow down conversations.

I hope you will study this seriously one day. Until then, go back to school and study EXCEPTIONS.

WHO IS THEY? D