lesbians?
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BTW its very deeply wrong whoever says that we cant judge the peopleGod has given us the QuranWe should judge according to Gods commandsQuran must be the source of our judgments.
Salam Asana
If you want to judge you must be able to set down a punishment. So what is the punishment for homosexuality?
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Salam Asana
If you want to judge you must be able to set down a punishment. So what is the punishment for homosexuality?
Shalom,
I always had the idea that homosexuality would have the same punishment as adultery. Let it be any form of sexual behavior that the Qur'an does not acknowledge as legitimate. Now, that is JUST MY OPINION. But I hate people that go around cursing the homosexual one while he/she is setting up partners to God. What a hypocrisy.
PEACE
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Peace All,
Thank you so much for taking the trouble to reply. I have been very worried that I haven't done enough to dissuade her. I understand she is very young and that this is hopefully just a phase. Thank you though for those of you who reminded me that there is no compulsion and that our job as believers is to remind and guide.
Thanks especially to Abdul Hadi's kind and gentle form of communication, it was much appreciated at a difficult time.
Peace,
Dawn.
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Salam Emil
If you want to judge you must be able to set down a punishment. So what is the punishment for homosexuality?
Not really. We can judge according to the Quran to make our decisions, stands and approaches.
If I can?t judge then how can I stand on God?s side and defend His Truth by condemning the people for their wrong belief or actions? Condemning or disassociating ourselves with those whom God is displeased needs judging through the Quran and making decision accordingly. Bearing in mind the Ultimate Judge is God.
As punishment for homosexuality verses 415-16 can be considered although you might be disagree with its interpretation then that?s another story!!
Peace
Asana -
As punishment for homosexuality verses 415-16 can be considered although you might be disagree with its interpretation then that?s another story!!
Salam Asana
Ok, this one you got to explain, how on earth did you get 415-16 to be about homosexuality?
Not really. We can judge according to the Quran to make our decisions, stands and approaches.
If I cant judge then how can I stand on Gods side and defend His Truth by condemning the people for their wrong belief or actions? Condemning or disassociating ourselves with those whom God is displeased needs judging through the Quran and making decision accordingly. Bearing in mind the Ultimate Judge is God.
Not really? Asana when you write like that do yo mean that we can judge others? Of course we can make our decisions, stands and approaches, but how does that legitimize judging others?
For argument's sake; You wear a hijab. I think wearing a hijab is idol-worshipping prophet Muhammed. Does that give me the freedom to judge you? Does that give me the right to judge you as someone who doesnt follow Allah?
I could think you are wrong, but I would never judge you. You are a sister and a human being and I have nothing but respect for you and your freedom to believe for yourself. Even if you would judge me I would still meet you with the outmost respect.I am very careful about judging in the name of Allah. If someone would ask me if I like homosexuality I would say no because to me it doesnt feel right, I could never understand how someone could be attracted to the same sex. However I would never say no because it is displeasing to Allah. How can I ever think that I understand Allah so good that I know what is displeasing to Him?
Judging certain actions are however allowed if the punishment is set down in the Quran. There is no punishment for homosexuality in the Quran, therefore we cannot judge. Eventhough we might think it is wrong we still cannot judge. And that includes judging in our heart, not only what we say.I see a fundamental difference in thought here. You want to condemn and disassociate yourself from those who are (in your opinion) displeasing Allah. You rather close the door on an atheist/homosexual/disbeliever rather than greeting him with a smile and welcome. Don't you see that if this person would ever have a chance to actually find Allah and the right path, you as a believer must show him love and respect. The minute you start judging, condemning and disassociating yourself you are turning someone away from Allah.
When you see that you must defend Allah's truth I see Allah giving us the right to defend our freedom to believe in the truth. The difference is small but enormous in meaning.Asana, don't get me wrong here. I am not saying that you must like and approve homosexuality. What I am saying is that it is ok to just feel like that, you do not need to find divine justification for your emotions.
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Hi All,
There's more. My daughter has now asked if her friend can stay overnight in our spare room while she waits for her parents to arrive from abroad to pick her up. If I said yes, I feel I would be condoning a sin, eventhough they would not be in the same room. What do people think?
Dawn. -
Hi All,
There's more. My daughter has now asked if her friend can stay overnight in our spare room while she waits for her parents to arrive from abroad to pick her up. If I said yes, I feel I would be condoning a sin, eventhough they would not be in the same room. What do people think?
Dawn.Salam Dawn
Your daughter is 17 years old? I have three younger sisters, two daughters and two sons. I know it hurts seeing your kid testing, trying, searching, rebelling and all those heart breaking things one has to endure as a parent. I know this because me and my sisters were real little rebels. I don't know how many calls from angry parents, teachers and sometimes the police my poor mother had to endure.....Now, after becoming a father I asked my mother why she didn't just locked us up and threw away the key. She answered that if she would have done so she would have 1) just postponed our adolesence until we became adults, which would mean she wouldn't be there to catch us when falling 2) Risked us kids to rebel against her and then we would have lost the one person in the entire world that would die trying to keep us from harms way.
Instead she set down some basic ground rules. She told us that we would not be punished, but we would break her heart if we ever went against the moral values of humanity (after reading the Quran I realized it was the same). Never hurt anyone on purpose, never lie to your parents, never steal, never put your life in danger (hard drugs, street racing, etc) and for the love of God never do anything to your body that you will regret for the rest of your life (get a tattoo on your forehead or something stupid like that)
Worked like a charm........We were rebels and we did a lot of stupid things, and that includes exploring our sexual desires. But we always backed off when rowdiness/rebellion became serious. We smoked pot but when our friends started trying coke and heroin we didn't because we knew it would break our mother's heart. I would never on purpose hurt a girl and my sisters never let a boy hurt them.
I don't know what country you live in, but if you do live in a western world state I promise, I guarantee, I am absolutely certain that if your daughter wants to "go against" what you say she will definately do so. You could lock her in a room without a window and she would still find a way, this I promise you.You have two options, and I thank Allah for giving me parents that went for option 1.
- Will you let your daughter know that no matter what happens, no matter how "stupid" mistakes she makes, she will have a mother who is there for her?
- Will you let your daughter know that you do not allow her to do "stupid" mistakes?
Option 1 will enable you to still be able to talk to your daughter and your daughter will with the grace of Allah actually feel that she can talk to her mother about her secrets.
Option 2 will close the door, your daughter will still make the "stupid" mistakes, but you will never find out because she will not tell you, or worse, she will start lying to you.If letting the friend sleep over feels like condoning a sin, how does it feel to put barriers between yourself and your daughter? I think putting up a barrier is a bigger sin because if your daughter might end up in real big trouble you will be not there, she will feel she cannot talk to you, that you do not understand.
It is a thin line to balance on, what to allow and disallow. All I know is that I must weigh the small sins from the big sins. I must make sure my kids will trust me to tell me when they are in trouble, and by trouble I mean life-threatening trouble such as drugs or gangs. That is the world we live in, unfortunately.
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Peace Emil,
What a wise mother you have. Thanks for taking the time to write this reply to me. It is making a big difference to my decision. I must say I am now more inclined to say yes to her, that her friend can stay. Of course, apart from hoping my daughter will take the right path, my main aim in this is not to harm my own soul. My daughter goes to school in England and I am currently working in Saudi Arabia.
Where in the world are you?
Dawn.
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Salaams Dawngorgeous,
Whilst agreeing with Emil to an extent I would condition the permission on a firm promise that nothing of a sexual nature will occur under your roof. Make clear what the Quranic position and yours is on homosexuality and tell her that if she can convince you that you have misunderstood the Quraan in this aspect you will withdraw any objections. hmm That way she will have to study what the Quraan actually says on the subject, and that may put a damper on her urges. tempt Best of luck!/ Omar
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Peace Emil,
What a wise mother you have. Thanks for taking the time to write this reply to me. It is making a big difference to my decision. I must say I am now more inclined to say yes to her, that her friend can stay. Of course, apart from hoping my daughter will take the right path, my main aim in this is not to harm my own soul. My daughter goes to school in England and I am currently working in Saudi Arabia.
Where in the world are you?
Dawn.
Salam Dawn
Yes, she is quite wise my dear old mother.
I am Swedish, grew up in Singapore and have lived in Thailand, China, Germany, England, France, Tunisia, Dubai, Brazil and for a very short time USA.............So I am pretty much everywhere )
By the way. I know very much what you are going through about the lesbian part. My sister came out of the closet years ago and I was very very angry. I went through an internal struggle, how could my sister betray me like that? How could she not think of me, I want to have a brother-in-law, I want to become an uncle. Just thinking of her kissing another girl sent shivers down my spine. I was very angry with her for a long time.
Ironically, the religion known to many as being anti-gay was the religion that made me forgive her. When I found Allah and his wisdom in the Quran I realized that I am not to be angry or pass judgement because somebody decides to go outside my perception of lewdness. I realized that just because I thought or felt in a certain manner didn't mean that was the right and only way.
By being (quite frankly) vague in the description of lewdness and on the same time condemning it Allah has shown us in a brilliant fashion that the perception of lewd comes from within. There is no way anybody can with the help of Quran make a list of what is pious or lewd sexual conduct. We can only look within and let our perception of lewdness govern us individually. To some extent govern the community we live in as well, but what really matters in the end is that we do not ourselves over-step our own limit. It hurts to see someone else over-step, especially if it is ones daughter. But we have to remember that her perception is different to yours, mine or anybody else's. All we can do is teach her that she must listen to herself and not transgress her inner perception of lewdness.Having said all that, the girl is just 17.....there is a big chance she is just trying to find herself )
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Salam Emil
how on earth did you get 415-16 to be about homosexuality?
Please tell me what your interpretation/understanding of them is.
-Not really? Asana when you write like that do yo mean that we can judge others? Of course we can make our decisions, stands and approaches, but how does that legitimize judging others?
We can judge others according to the Quran.For example God says ?you shall not befriend my enemies and your enemies??How are we going to decide who are His enemies? Well the only way is that to see who fights against Him and His messenger. For that one have to judge the person by his/her action?.Decision comes after judging.
In that example although one judge the person but no punishment gets issued for it unless fighting is physical otherwise refraining to from be friend is enough.O you who believe, you shall not befriend My enemies and your enemies, extending love and friendship to them, even though they have disbelieved in the truth that has come to you. They persecute the messenger, and you, just because you believe in GOD, your Lord. If you mobilize to struggle in My cause, seeking My blessings, how can you secretly love them? I am fully aware of everything you conceal, and everything you declare. Those among you who do this have indeed strayed off the right path.
-For argument's sake; You wear a hijab. I think wearing a hijab is idol-worshipping prophet Muhammed. Does that give me the freedom to judge you? Does that give me the right to judge you as someone who doesnt follow Allah?
By just wearing hijjab one can?t simply judge the person as idol-worshiper .We should make sure what ideology the person is following?If belief is that it?s a command from Prophet then yes one can pass the judge she is committing idolatry?At the same time as judging her it doesn?t give me permission to force her not to wear or mistreat her or not to befriend with her?We must stick to the ?no compulsion in religion?. Whether she dies as an idol worshiper or not is irrelevant to the present judgment.
-I am very careful about judging in the name of Allah. If someone would ask me if I like homosexuality I would say no because to me it doesnt feel right, I could never understand how someone could be attracted to the same sex. However I would never say no because it is displeasing to Allah. How can I ever think that I understand Allah so good that I know what is displeasing to Him?
There is nothing as what you/I like or dislike?It?s all about what God likes or dislikes when it comes to such an issue?In the Quran we read what pleases God or displeases Him?.When people of Lot got condemned by God as I said before one of the things they were committing was homosexuality?God sent them retribution?.If it pleases Him then surely He wouldn?t have condemned them or even mention their action.
-Judging certain actions are however allowed if the punishment is set down in the Quran. There is no punishment for homosexuality in the Quran, therefore we cannot judge. Eventhough we might think it is wrong we still cannot judge.
You associate judging with punishment while in many cases it?s personal judging for making decision.
-You want to condemn and disassociate yourself from those who are (in your opinion) displeasing Allah.
My opinions must be based on commands of God not on my personals?.Condemning or disassociating etc must be based on what God is teaching me. If I don?t stand by His command then I?m disobeying Him.
You rather close the door on an atheist/homosexual/disbeliever rather than greeting him with a smile and welcome. Don't you see that if this person would ever have a chance to actually find Allah and the right path, you as a believer must show him love and respect.
Have I ever written that I close the door on them?!...Of course I should treat them nicely as long as they?re not fighting with me over my belief/religion/way of life?Of course I must invite them to the path of God in best possible manner?At the end it?s their neck not mine and no compulsion in religion.
BTW I had a lesbian neighbor who left the area...She counted me as one of her good friend because I always respected her although she knew I condemn her belief!Asana
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By just wearing hijjab one can?t simply judge the person as idol-worshiper .We should make sure what ideology the person is following?If belief is that it?s a command from Prophet then yes one can pass the judge she is committing idolatry?At the same time as judging her it doesn?t give me permission to force her not to wear or mistreat her or not to befriend with her?We must stick to the ?no compulsion in religion?. Whether she dies as an idol worshiper or not is irrelevant to the present judgment.
Salaam Asana
I think our difference here is what you and I actually mean by "judging" I see judging as per the dictionary;
Judgement (or judgment) is the evaluation of evidence in the making of a decision.
No matter in what kind of court evidence must be based on fact. No court would ever allow the lawyers to base their evidence on their own opinion, the judge would throw it out immediately.
A crime is a crime only when the law says it is a crime.
Since judgement is typically associated with some kind of punishment we need to know what that punishment isWhere are the facts that homosexuality is lewd?
Where is it stated that we humans should pass judgement on lewdness?
What is the earthly punishment for homosexuality?Without opinionating, can you find these criteria in the Quran? Can you with Allah as your witness swear that you have found the truth and your truth is absolutely free from dogma?'
I can't.............Therefore I choose to let the judgement be passed by the Creator himself, he knows everything. And as for my own salvation (to use a christian expression) I would like to entertain the idea that Allah would not harshly judge a person that rather show love and respect rather than passing judgement in His name.We can judge others according to the Quran.For example God says ?you shall not befriend my enemies and your enemies??How are we going to decide who are His enemies? Well the only way is that to see who fights against Him and His messenger. For that one have to judge the person by his/her action?.Decision comes after judging.
In that example although one judge the person but no punishment gets issued for it unless fighting is physical otherwise refraining to from be friend is enoughIf you cannot find the enemy, there is no enemy. If you do find an enemy but it still doesnt give you the right to judge him.
There is nothing as what you/I like or dislike?It?s all about what God likes or dislikes when it comes to such an issue?In the Quran we read what pleases God or displeases Him?.When people of Lot got condemned by God as I said before one of the things they were committing was homosexuality?God sent them retribution?.If it pleases Him then surely He wouldn?t have condemned them or even mention their action.
You are absolutely sure that the people of Lot were committing homosexuality? They were lewd, not the same as being gay.
415-16 is talking about lewdness, shameful act, whoredom, indecent act..........pick your translation.......I have not found one Quran where it says "homosexuality".
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Peace All,
Once again, thank you all for making the effort to advise me. Your advice has been extremely helpful. I have told her her friend can come but that they do not share a room and whilst they are in the house they behave simply as friends. I have also asked her to examine the Koran to see if she can find that Islam approves of homosexuality. I don't think the Koran actually mentions the word homosexuality but I think God frowned on the fact that the men of Sodom and Gomora were more interested in men than women.
Peace,
Dawn.
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'Homosexuality' is a made-up concept surely. 'Sodomy' as a thing only, in the Bible as well as the Quran. My personal feeling is that only men commit error when they do same-sex stuff, women attempting it...doesn't really count as anything, therefore is not the same. However, when two women describe each other as 'their partner' or 'get married' I think that is like - mental illness; and it shouldn't be tolerated any further....
Does that sound mean? ???
hmmm
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Salam Jane,
What's the problem of two women feeling that they belong together, that they want to share their life, that they are each other's soul mate? They don't even need to have sex for that. Are they forced to share their life with someone who will never understand them, who will just tyrannize them and keep them as cheap housekeeper and sex object? Of course not all men are like that, but look at the marriage thread how hard it is to find one of the "good" men... -
Of course not all men are like that, but look at the marriage thread how hard it is to find one of the "good" men...
Bold
Is that one of the reasons for some women to become lesbians? ???
Sort of alternative to have mate (at least) rather than being single?
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Well I suppose there are several reasons to become lesbian. One of them seems to be bad exprience with men (notably sexual abuse in childhood or later), another one just feeling closer to women in general or to one specific woman. This leads to the question of one should have sex with the person one feels closst to ("no" would mean having sex with someone one does not feel so close to) - to be honest, I am not sure about that - anyway it is not my role to judge others.
However, my focus was on the term "their partner", which as I said does not necessary include sex. -
Bold
Is that one of the reasons for some women to become lesbians? ???
Sort of alternative to have mate (at least) rather than being single?
Yeah, that's one of the excuses given for being lesbian to my understanding. I could be wrong though, it's still an despicable act when sex is involved in my eyes.
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