lesbians?

Paradox_Uncreated

Salaam Paradox

You and I do not seem to live in the same universe because your universe seems to be spinning around you. I am sorry the kids laughed at you when you were little, I am sorry that you have to live in such a horrendous place like Norway where people have forgotten God.

I am dead serious about Islam, my friend. I am trying to make it work in a world where things are far beyond more complex than the world you seem live in. I dont get the kissing up to footballers bit, but with the drawings of prophet Muhammed I think you need to look beyond your computer world and into the world of art to truly understand what it is all about. By saying I am attributing sayings to God when I post a picture where it says that God does not hate gay people, well prove to me then that this is not true.

You used to ask people to read this book before discussing with you? Well, I humbly ask you to not discuss anything with me until you return to earth.

I think that the situation is the same in Sweden, but you are romanticising your view on reality. And that is only a part of your problem. You fail to see reality, and instead choose to live in a makebelieve world. This is the very opposite of Islam.
Islam is not a popularity contest. You dont cheer on a team, to gain benefits. Its about truth, being truthful.
Your "complex" world, is probably because you are confused, and think you need to do these things. Instead, the world can be quite simple, and listen to ones own nature. (And protect from spirits by being godconscious, which I doubt you have understood my posts on, or even acknowledge.)
My enemy is satan. And you are arguing against me.. Do you believe in satan?

Calling the mohammed-drawings art, just shows how far from reality you really are. I was a hacker in my teens. I guess you are referring to that with "my computer world". While I live in quite a divine world these days, no doubt something you cannot comprehend, my computer world of my teens, was quite filled with art, and intelligence, and freedom of expression. You can look up "demoscene" if you like, and educate yourself on computer art, so you don`t make so ignorant statements.

And if God puts gays in hell, that would definately be hate. No, even worse. "It`s better that God hates you, than works against you". - Quran. God actually works against them here. And from what I have seen, they deserve it.
And no injustice shall be done.

I was thinking about stopping my posts there, but there still seems to be something on my mind. How the hell can an adult male sit and talk about children laughing at me, and use expressions like computer world. Like he sure isnt one of those loosers. That makes me upset. Really fires up an old conflict, which I ofcourse rarely see these days. People are all using computers these days, so its a remark indeed from the times of "computer users are weird". Now instead of wanting to crush this guys head with a sledgehammer, I am going to work this out in words.

First of all, all the time you spendt with your friends, pretending your ignorant ways are better, living in your make-believe world, where the ignorant are the superior, where fotballers are to be kissed up to, and more recently where completely lame drawings are art, which you defend, and homophilia is "normal" Lol, yeah I am drawing a picture myself here, and thinking it is pathetic. I don`t really need to say anymore.

You obviously live far away from any religious truth. THIS is where I LIVE. You are like the beast, who attacks a piece of meat, you could never comprehend the state of mind, of the gnostic I am.

GO ON, live your live in your ignorant pathetic state and think it is superior. While on my level of reality, you are insignificant. (I wouldn`t even call that being alive.)

Emil

Paradox, talk to the hand....

DawnGorgeous, I posted a link below that you may find interesting. It is from a popular tv show that is a collaboration between Swedish and Norwegian TV. The woman is called Irshad Manji, a lesbian muslim who is trying to reform Islam much in the same way the QA movement thinks. I posted her homepage as well. The old guy is Percy Barnevik, a very rich Swedish man who uses some of his wealth to start women's centers in places like Afghanistan. Check the youtube out, it is very interesting. They all start speaking english after a few seconds so the whole thing is not in Norwegian/Swedish.

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Rixqsfao0&feature=related

https//www.irshadmanji.com/

Paradox_Uncreated

Emil is just another retard deluder. A lot of people talk about reality, as if they know what it is. They should ofcourse shut up about something they have no idea about. That is a theme of the Quran aswell, do not talk about what you have no knowledge of. If all the deluders would just control their mouth, all that would be left is the information of godseekers. And all godseekers around the world, find the same truth, independently. It varies somewhat how it is expressed ofcourse, but ultimately they describe the same phenomena. God, angels, jinn, creation, morality, heaven, hell. This is what Islam is about. Not occluding it with all kinds of stupid statements from a position of no knowledge, and provocative behaviour.

Deluders, channel satan, and cannot be followed. Ultimately that would lead to hell. That is how one should think of Emil, and similar people, regardless of their claims of muslimdom, or anything else.

And people who followed the forum know I am not the one with the book. He is shooting blindly in all directions. Probably is the underlying principle of most of his behaviour and statements.

savage_carrot

Please read the forum rules. Stop with the insults.

Emil

Emil is just another retard deluder. A lot of people talk about reality, as if they know what it is. They should ofcourse shut up about something they have no idea about. That is a theme of the Quran aswell, do not talk about what you have no knowledge of. If all the deluders would just control their mouth, all that would be left is the information of godseekers. And all godseekers around the world, find the same truth, independently. It varies somewhat how it is expressed ofcourse, but ultimately they describe the same phenomena. God, angels, jinn, creation, morality, heaven, hell. This is what Islam is about. Not occluding it with all kinds of stupid statements from a position of no knowledge, and provocative behaviour.

Deluders, channel satan, and cannot be followed. Ultimately that would lead to hell. That is how one should think of Emil, and similar people, regardless of their claims of muslimdom, or anything else.

And people who followed the forum know I am not the one with the book. He is shooting blindly in all directions. Probably is the underlying principle of most of his behaviour and statements.

Thank you brother for all your kind words.

If being a retarded deluder by saying that we humans should live in peace and love and try to understand and we shall leave the judgements up to Allah, then ok, I understand I am retarded and I channel Satan.
If saying that we should strive to separate our wordly opinion and our faith, then yes I am retarded and a slave to Satan
By understanding one genre of art being an expression of protest against humanity's narrow mindset, ok I am retarded and channeling Satan.
By being a proud citizen of my country and striving to meet all the people in it with love, even the ones who dislike me, I am surely retarded
If loving football is retarded, yes I am the biggest retard on earth
By showing you your weakness that you go absolutely bananas if someone provokes you a little, about half of your provocation of others, well yes, call me whatever you want.

It saddens me that you so very quickly forget that your reality is not everyone's reality. You say I romanticise mine. Maybe you are right but you are using the wrong description. My reality is that this world will only become good if one focuses on the good and strive to be better. Thinking everyone else are stupid and lost and facebook addicts and behaving like animals like you describe your fellow countrymen will not bring anything good. If you want to live in this bitter world you created for yourself, fine by me. I rather choose with the light of Allah as my guidance to believe that we are not supposed to be the same but we should strive to understand and respect one and eachother. We are made into different nations and tribes so we may recognise eachother.

I see this......system of Islam so brilliantly composed that you do not even have to believe in Allah in order to follow it. Like the local Imam who said "Most people do not realize they are muslims"
I am as sure as the sun is to set tonight that Allah has shown us in the last book a system that works for any society, any kind of people at any time. The only thing that can hinder this is us, people putting up barriers, people who accuse other people of channeling Satan, people who proclaim their way is the better one, people who think believing is some kind of popularity contest.

Paradox_Uncreated

Please read the forum rules. Stop with the insults.

Is it incidental that you post these after my posts? I dont see anything happening when the creeps are posting. And there seem to be quite a few of them. If this posts upset you, ban I guess. I was banned in here before, and dont really find the quality of posts in here worth in anymore, so I don`t care if I get banned again. I mean if you want the company of the creeps over the gnostics, have it your way.

Indelwyn

Dawn

I would say at this time be supportive. as the others have said.

I personally have gay friends. My father is gay. He married my mother to appear normal, once my mother found out his secret life, she divorced him.

In my opinion, I do not think homosexuality is always a choice. Why would anyone want to have such discord in their life? I have seen the people I know lose friends, family, jobs, all sort of things because of this. As gross as it is to think of being with the same sex, to them it gross to think about being with the opposite sex. If there is no attraction, what is one to do?

Either way I hate the sin not the sinner, and I don't know everything on this matter. However, I have learned not to judge and be grateful that I don't bear that burden.

Peace be to you and your family!

Asana

Peace

If homosexuality is normal then why God told the people of Lot in that manner as verses remind us? Why Prophet Lot asked them to have his daughters when they went to his door for his guest?

All the verses in the Quran teach that homosexuality is something that doesn?t pleases God.

One of the reasons for sending the retribution on Lot?s people was that they were committing homosexuality.

BTW it?s very deeply wrong whoever says that we can?t judge the people?God has given us the Quran?We should judge according to God?s commands?Quran must be the source of our judgments.

Asana

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

...

BTW it?s very deeply wrong whoever says that we can?t judge the people?God has given us the Quran?We should judge according to God?s commands?Quran must be the source of our judgments.

Asana

It depends on what is meant by the word "judge." The word has a variety of meanings. Depending on the meaning, the answer of whether we can (or should) judge is either yes or no, ISA.

http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/judge

We are not the "final say" on any matter. There is no compulsion in the deen, so we must be careful to not attempt to force others (regardless of intent). We can form opinions. We should invite others to the deen. We should help others, without overstepping boundaries.

669 And those who are righteous are not responsible for their judgement, but to remind; perhaps they will be aware.

10109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until GOD judges. And He is the best of judges.

2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Emil

BTW its very deeply wrong whoever says that we cant judge the peopleGod has given us the QuranWe should judge according to Gods commandsQuran must be the source of our judgments.

Salam Asana

If you want to judge you must be able to set down a punishment. So what is the punishment for homosexuality?

Student_of_Allah

Salam Asana

If you want to judge you must be able to set down a punishment. So what is the punishment for homosexuality?

Shalom,

I always had the idea that homosexuality would have the same punishment as adultery. Let it be any form of sexual behavior that the Qur'an does not acknowledge as legitimate. Now, that is JUST MY OPINION. But I hate people that go around cursing the homosexual one while he/she is setting up partners to God. What a hypocrisy.

PEACE
--------------------- Student of Allah

dawngorgeous

Peace All,

Thank you so much for taking the trouble to reply. I have been very worried that I haven't done enough to dissuade her. I understand she is very young and that this is hopefully just a phase. Thank you though for those of you who reminded me that there is no compulsion and that our job as believers is to remind and guide.

Thanks especially to Abdul Hadi's kind and gentle form of communication, it was much appreciated at a difficult time.

Peace,

Dawn.

Asana

Salam Emil

If you want to judge you must be able to set down a punishment. So what is the punishment for homosexuality?

Not really. We can judge according to the Quran to make our decisions, stands and approaches.

If I can?t judge then how can I stand on God?s side and defend His Truth by condemning the people for their wrong belief or actions? Condemning or disassociating ourselves with those whom God is displeased needs judging through the Quran and making decision accordingly. Bearing in mind the Ultimate Judge is God.

As punishment for homosexuality verses 415-16 can be considered although you might be disagree with its interpretation then that?s another story!!

Peace
Asana

Emil

As punishment for homosexuality verses 415-16 can be considered although you might be disagree with its interpretation then that?s another story!!

Salam Asana

Ok, this one you got to explain, how on earth did you get 415-16 to be about homosexuality?

Not really. We can judge according to the Quran to make our decisions, stands and approaches.

If I cant judge then how can I stand on Gods side and defend His Truth by condemning the people for their wrong belief or actions? Condemning or disassociating ourselves with those whom God is displeased needs judging through the Quran and making decision accordingly. Bearing in mind the Ultimate Judge is God.

Not really? Asana when you write like that do yo mean that we can judge others? Of course we can make our decisions, stands and approaches, but how does that legitimize judging others?
For argument's sake; You wear a hijab. I think wearing a hijab is idol-worshipping prophet Muhammed. Does that give me the freedom to judge you? Does that give me the right to judge you as someone who doesnt follow Allah?
I could think you are wrong, but I would never judge you. You are a sister and a human being and I have nothing but respect for you and your freedom to believe for yourself. Even if you would judge me I would still meet you with the outmost respect.

I am very careful about judging in the name of Allah. If someone would ask me if I like homosexuality I would say no because to me it doesnt feel right, I could never understand how someone could be attracted to the same sex. However I would never say no because it is displeasing to Allah. How can I ever think that I understand Allah so good that I know what is displeasing to Him?
Judging certain actions are however allowed if the punishment is set down in the Quran. There is no punishment for homosexuality in the Quran, therefore we cannot judge. Eventhough we might think it is wrong we still cannot judge. And that includes judging in our heart, not only what we say.

I see a fundamental difference in thought here. You want to condemn and disassociate yourself from those who are (in your opinion) displeasing Allah. You rather close the door on an atheist/homosexual/disbeliever rather than greeting him with a smile and welcome. Don't you see that if this person would ever have a chance to actually find Allah and the right path, you as a believer must show him love and respect. The minute you start judging, condemning and disassociating yourself you are turning someone away from Allah.
When you see that you must defend Allah's truth I see Allah giving us the right to defend our freedom to believe in the truth. The difference is small but enormous in meaning.

Asana, don't get me wrong here. I am not saying that you must like and approve homosexuality. What I am saying is that it is ok to just feel like that, you do not need to find divine justification for your emotions.

dawngorgeous

Hi All,
There's more. My daughter has now asked if her friend can stay overnight in our spare room while she waits for her parents to arrive from abroad to pick her up. If I said yes, I feel I would be condoning a sin, eventhough they would not be in the same room. What do people think?
Dawn.

Emil

Hi All,
There's more. My daughter has now asked if her friend can stay overnight in our spare room while she waits for her parents to arrive from abroad to pick her up. If I said yes, I feel I would be condoning a sin, eventhough they would not be in the same room. What do people think?
Dawn.

Salam Dawn

Your daughter is 17 years old? I have three younger sisters, two daughters and two sons. I know it hurts seeing your kid testing, trying, searching, rebelling and all those heart breaking things one has to endure as a parent. I know this because me and my sisters were real little rebels. I don't know how many calls from angry parents, teachers and sometimes the police my poor mother had to endure.....Now, after becoming a father I asked my mother why she didn't just locked us up and threw away the key. She answered that if she would have done so she would have 1) just postponed our adolesence until we became adults, which would mean she wouldn't be there to catch us when falling 2) Risked us kids to rebel against her and then we would have lost the one person in the entire world that would die trying to keep us from harms way.

Instead she set down some basic ground rules. She told us that we would not be punished, but we would break her heart if we ever went against the moral values of humanity (after reading the Quran I realized it was the same). Never hurt anyone on purpose, never lie to your parents, never steal, never put your life in danger (hard drugs, street racing, etc) and for the love of God never do anything to your body that you will regret for the rest of your life (get a tattoo on your forehead or something stupid like that)

Worked like a charm........We were rebels and we did a lot of stupid things, and that includes exploring our sexual desires. But we always backed off when rowdiness/rebellion became serious. We smoked pot but when our friends started trying coke and heroin we didn't because we knew it would break our mother's heart. I would never on purpose hurt a girl and my sisters never let a boy hurt them.
I don't know what country you live in, but if you do live in a western world state I promise, I guarantee, I am absolutely certain that if your daughter wants to "go against" what you say she will definately do so. You could lock her in a room without a window and she would still find a way, this I promise you.

You have two options, and I thank Allah for giving me parents that went for option 1.

Will you let your daughter know that no matter what happens, no matter how "stupid" mistakes she makes, she will have a mother who is there for her?
Will you let your daughter know that you do not allow her to do "stupid" mistakes?

Option 1 will enable you to still be able to talk to your daughter and your daughter will with the grace of Allah actually feel that she can talk to her mother about her secrets.
Option 2 will close the door, your daughter will still make the "stupid" mistakes, but you will never find out because she will not tell you, or worse, she will start lying to you.

If letting the friend sleep over feels like condoning a sin, how does it feel to put barriers between yourself and your daughter? I think putting up a barrier is a bigger sin because if your daughter might end up in real big trouble you will be not there, she will feel she cannot talk to you, that you do not understand.

It is a thin line to balance on, what to allow and disallow. All I know is that I must weigh the small sins from the big sins. I must make sure my kids will trust me to tell me when they are in trouble, and by trouble I mean life-threatening trouble such as drugs or gangs. That is the world we live in, unfortunately.

dawngorgeous

Peace Emil,

What a wise mother you have. Thanks for taking the time to write this reply to me. It is making a big difference to my decision. I must say I am now more inclined to say yes to her, that her friend can stay. Of course, apart from hoping my daughter will take the right path, my main aim in this is not to harm my own soul. My daughter goes to school in England and I am currently working in Saudi Arabia.

Where in the world are you?

Dawn.

GROAN

Salaams Dawngorgeous,

Whilst agreeing with Emil to an extent I would condition the permission on a firm promise that nothing of a sexual nature will occur under your roof. Make clear what the Quranic position and yours is on homosexuality and tell her that if she can convince you that you have misunderstood the Quraan in this aspect you will withdraw any objections. hmm That way she will have to study what the Quraan actually says on the subject, and that may put a damper on her urges. tempt Best of luck!/ Omar

Emil

Peace Emil,

What a wise mother you have. Thanks for taking the time to write this reply to me. It is making a big difference to my decision. I must say I am now more inclined to say yes to her, that her friend can stay. Of course, apart from hoping my daughter will take the right path, my main aim in this is not to harm my own soul. My daughter goes to school in England and I am currently working in Saudi Arabia.

Where in the world are you?

Dawn.

Salam Dawn

Yes, she is quite wise my dear old mother.

I am Swedish, grew up in Singapore and have lived in Thailand, China, Germany, England, France, Tunisia, Dubai, Brazil and for a very short time USA.............So I am pretty much everywhere )

By the way. I know very much what you are going through about the lesbian part. My sister came out of the closet years ago and I was very very angry. I went through an internal struggle, how could my sister betray me like that? How could she not think of me, I want to have a brother-in-law, I want to become an uncle. Just thinking of her kissing another girl sent shivers down my spine. I was very angry with her for a long time.
Ironically, the religion known to many as being anti-gay was the religion that made me forgive her. When I found Allah and his wisdom in the Quran I realized that I am not to be angry or pass judgement because somebody decides to go outside my perception of lewdness. I realized that just because I thought or felt in a certain manner didn't mean that was the right and only way.
By being (quite frankly) vague in the description of lewdness and on the same time condemning it Allah has shown us in a brilliant fashion that the perception of lewd comes from within. There is no way anybody can with the help of Quran make a list of what is pious or lewd sexual conduct. We can only look within and let our perception of lewdness govern us individually. To some extent govern the community we live in as well, but what really matters in the end is that we do not ourselves over-step our own limit. It hurts to see someone else over-step, especially if it is ones daughter. But we have to remember that her perception is different to yours, mine or anybody else's. All we can do is teach her that she must listen to herself and not transgress her inner perception of lewdness.

Having said all that, the girl is just 17.....there is a big chance she is just trying to find herself )

Asana

Salam Emil

how on earth did you get 415-16 to be about homosexuality?

Please tell me what your interpretation/understanding of them is.

-Not really? Asana when you write like that do yo mean that we can judge others? Of course we can make our decisions, stands and approaches, but how does that legitimize judging others?

We can judge others according to the Quran.For example God says ?you shall not befriend my enemies and your enemies??How are we going to decide who are His enemies? Well the only way is that to see who fights against Him and His messenger. For that one have to judge the person by his/her action?.Decision comes after judging.
In that example although one judge the person but no punishment gets issued for it unless fighting is physical otherwise refraining to from be friend is enough.

O you who believe, you shall not befriend My enemies and your enemies, extending love and friendship to them, even though they have disbelieved in the truth that has come to you. They persecute the messenger, and you, just because you believe in GOD, your Lord. If you mobilize to struggle in My cause, seeking My blessings, how can you secretly love them? I am fully aware of everything you conceal, and everything you declare. Those among you who do this have indeed strayed off the right path.

-For argument's sake; You wear a hijab. I think wearing a hijab is idol-worshipping prophet Muhammed. Does that give me the freedom to judge you? Does that give me the right to judge you as someone who doesnt follow Allah?

By just wearing hijjab one can?t simply judge the person as idol-worshiper .We should make sure what ideology the person is following?If belief is that it?s a command from Prophet then yes one can pass the judge she is committing idolatry?At the same time as judging her it doesn?t give me permission to force her not to wear or mistreat her or not to befriend with her?We must stick to the ?no compulsion in religion?. Whether she dies as an idol worshiper or not is irrelevant to the present judgment.

-I am very careful about judging in the name of Allah. If someone would ask me if I like homosexuality I would say no because to me it doesnt feel right, I could never understand how someone could be attracted to the same sex. However I would never say no because it is displeasing to Allah. How can I ever think that I understand Allah so good that I know what is displeasing to Him?

There is nothing as what you/I like or dislike?It?s all about what God likes or dislikes when it comes to such an issue?In the Quran we read what pleases God or displeases Him?.When people of Lot got condemned by God as I said before one of the things they were committing was homosexuality?God sent them retribution?.If it pleases Him then surely He wouldn?t have condemned them or even mention their action.

-Judging certain actions are however allowed if the punishment is set down in the Quran. There is no punishment for homosexuality in the Quran, therefore we cannot judge. Eventhough we might think it is wrong we still cannot judge.

You associate judging with punishment while in many cases it?s personal judging for making decision.

-You want to condemn and disassociate yourself from those who are (in your opinion) displeasing Allah.

My opinions must be based on commands of God not on my personals?.Condemning or disassociating etc must be based on what God is teaching me. If I don?t stand by His command then I?m disobeying Him.

You rather close the door on an atheist/homosexual/disbeliever rather than greeting him with a smile and welcome. Don't you see that if this person would ever have a chance to actually find Allah and the right path, you as a believer must show him love and respect.

Have I ever written that I close the door on them?!...Of course I should treat them nicely as long as they?re not fighting with me over my belief/religion/way of life?Of course I must invite them to the path of God in best possible manner?At the end it?s their neck not mine and no compulsion in religion.
BTW I had a lesbian neighbor who left the area...She counted me as one of her good friend because I always respected her although she knew I condemn her belief!

Asana