lesbians?
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Kissing up to fotballers, not minding the lame drawings of mohammed, and now attributing sayings to God..
Emil, I think you aren`t quite serious about Islam.Salaam Paradox
You and I do not seem to live in the same universe because your universe seems to be spinning around you. I am sorry the kids laughed at you when you were little, I am sorry that you have to live in such a horrendous place like Norway where people have forgotten God.
I am dead serious about Islam, my friend. I am trying to make it work in a world where things are far beyond more complex than the world you seem live in. I dont get the kissing up to footballers bit, but with the drawings of prophet Muhammed I think you need to look beyond your computer world and into the world of art to truly understand what it is all about. By saying I am attributing sayings to God when I post a picture where it says that God does not hate gay people, well prove to me then that this is not true.
You used to ask people to read this book before discussing with you? Well, I humbly ask you to not discuss anything with me until you return to earth.
Nobody is saying to hate gay people. I say hate what they practice. The practice of homosexuality is what should be scorned and not the people. We shouldn't discriminate against gay people just because of what they do. However just because we don't discriminate against them doesn't mean that we accept what they do. We don't. And it is quite clear in the Quran that we shouldn't accept homosexuality as a practice. Homosexuality is a gross sin and against God's design. So again I say to all, God made Eve not Steve.
Salam Kevin
My point brother is that we can hate gays (I certainly do not like gays) but we cannot say Allah hates gays. I see it quite black and white.
- There are transgressions which have punishments as per Quran
- There are things which are forbidden as per Quran
- There are things where we are asked to follow what we personally feel is a sin/forbidden/guidance, but that is a personal opinion. For example if I am gay and I cannot find anything to prove that I am in fact lewd by acting out on my homosexuality, then the ONLY one who can judge me or even give me a hint that it is a sin is Allah. If I feel hijab is definately part of Islam I can wear one, ONLY Allah can tell me if I am wrong.
If any of my "personal preferences" trancends into a clear violation of Allah's guidance such as oppression my fellow brothers and sisters can step in and stop me.
In other words, there is no clear violation being gay. We do not know where homosexuality comes from, the evidence sofar is that you are born with it, and that makes it the work of Allah. I rather religiously love and personally dislike.
To tell you the truth I do not like homosexuality, but I do realize this is my wordly opinion, not my religious opinion.
Greetings and Peace, all group
Tell her that you love her, but you also don't believe in homosexuality. Also tell her that she will always be your daughter and that you will not drive her away. Don't judge her--feel honored that she trusts you enough to confide in you. Tell her that you hope that she will do what is right and not what is convenient. Tell her that you want what is best for her, and that this is not good for her in the long term.
If she follows the deen of islam, present a position grounded on that. Ask her how it would fit in with her religious values. If she doesn't presently follow the deen, you may choose to mention that making such an attraction known to others will affect her socially for a long time--especially if the attraction is not mutual! Keeping such a thing private is like wrapping fire with paper.
Remind her that any sexual act with a partner that is not monogamous is inherently risky. If she still chooses to pursue the relationship, be patient. Don't browbeat her with unwanted lectures. Just because you don't approve of her lifestyle doesn't mean that you don't want to talk with her or see her! ISA, things will work out for the best.
Btw, three bisexual women that I personally know are now monogamously married (to men!).
May ALLAH see fit to change us all for the better.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
bravo bravo bravo
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Salaam Paradox
You and I do not seem to live in the same universe because your universe seems to be spinning around you. I am sorry the kids laughed at you when you were little, I am sorry that you have to live in such a horrendous place like Norway where people have forgotten God.
I am dead serious about Islam, my friend. I am trying to make it work in a world where things are far beyond more complex than the world you seem live in. I dont get the kissing up to footballers bit, but with the drawings of prophet Muhammed I think you need to look beyond your computer world and into the world of art to truly understand what it is all about. By saying I am attributing sayings to God when I post a picture where it says that God does not hate gay people, well prove to me then that this is not true.
You used to ask people to read this book before discussing with you? Well, I humbly ask you to not discuss anything with me until you return to earth.
I think that the situation is the same in Sweden, but you are romanticising your view on reality. And that is only a part of your problem. You fail to see reality, and instead choose to live in a makebelieve world. This is the very opposite of Islam.
Islam is not a popularity contest. You dont cheer on a team, to gain benefits. Its about truth, being truthful.
Your "complex" world, is probably because you are confused, and think you need to do these things. Instead, the world can be quite simple, and listen to ones own nature. (And protect from spirits by being godconscious, which I doubt you have understood my posts on, or even acknowledge.)
My enemy is satan. And you are arguing against me.. Do you believe in satan?Calling the mohammed-drawings art, just shows how far from reality you really are. I was a hacker in my teens. I guess you are referring to that with "my computer world". While I live in quite a divine world these days, no doubt something you cannot comprehend, my computer world of my teens, was quite filled with art, and intelligence, and freedom of expression. You can look up "demoscene" if you like, and educate yourself on computer art, so you don`t make so ignorant statements.
And if God puts gays in hell, that would definately be hate. No, even worse. "It`s better that God hates you, than works against you". - Quran. God actually works against them here. And from what I have seen, they deserve it.
And no injustice shall be done.I was thinking about stopping my posts there, but there still seems to be something on my mind. How the hell can an adult male sit and talk about children laughing at me, and use expressions like computer world. Like he sure isn
t one of those loosers. That makes me upset. Really fires up an old conflict, which I ofcourse rarely see these days. People are all using computers these days, so its a remark indeed from the times of "computer users are weird". Now instead of wanting to crush this guys head with a sledgehammer, I am going to work this out in words.First of all, all the time you spendt with your friends, pretending your ignorant ways are better, living in your make-believe world, where the ignorant are the superior, where fotballers are to be kissed up to, and more recently where completely lame drawings are art, which you defend, and homophilia is "normal" Lol, yeah I am drawing a picture myself here, and thinking it is pathetic. I don`t really need to say anymore.
You obviously live far away from any religious truth. THIS is where I LIVE. You are like the beast, who attacks a piece of meat, you could never comprehend the state of mind, of the gnostic I am.
GO ON, live your live in your ignorant pathetic state and think it is superior. While on my level of reality, you are insignificant. (I wouldn`t even call that being alive.)
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Paradox, talk to the hand....
DawnGorgeous, I posted a link below that you may find interesting. It is from a popular tv show that is a collaboration between Swedish and Norwegian TV. The woman is called Irshad Manji, a lesbian muslim who is trying to reform Islam much in the same way the QA movement thinks. I posted her homepage as well. The old guy is Percy Barnevik, a very rich Swedish man who uses some of his wealth to start women's centers in places like Afghanistan. Check the youtube out, it is very interesting. They all start speaking english after a few seconds so the whole thing is not in Norwegian/Swedish.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Rixqsfao0&feature=related
https//www.irshadmanji.com/
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Emil is just another retard deluder. A lot of people talk about reality, as if they know what it is. They should ofcourse shut up about something they have no idea about. That is a theme of the Quran aswell, do not talk about what you have no knowledge of. If all the deluders would just control their mouth, all that would be left is the information of godseekers. And all godseekers around the world, find the same truth, independently. It varies somewhat how it is expressed ofcourse, but ultimately they describe the same phenomena. God, angels, jinn, creation, morality, heaven, hell. This is what Islam is about. Not occluding it with all kinds of stupid statements from a position of no knowledge, and provocative behaviour.
Deluders, channel satan, and cannot be followed. Ultimately that would lead to hell. That is how one should think of Emil, and similar people, regardless of their claims of muslimdom, or anything else.
And people who followed the forum know I am not the one with the book. He is shooting blindly in all directions. Probably is the underlying principle of most of his behaviour and statements.
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Please read the forum rules. Stop with the insults.
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Emil is just another retard deluder. A lot of people talk about reality, as if they know what it is. They should ofcourse shut up about something they have no idea about. That is a theme of the Quran aswell, do not talk about what you have no knowledge of. If all the deluders would just control their mouth, all that would be left is the information of godseekers. And all godseekers around the world, find the same truth, independently. It varies somewhat how it is expressed ofcourse, but ultimately they describe the same phenomena. God, angels, jinn, creation, morality, heaven, hell. This is what Islam is about. Not occluding it with all kinds of stupid statements from a position of no knowledge, and provocative behaviour.
Deluders, channel satan, and cannot be followed. Ultimately that would lead to hell. That is how one should think of Emil, and similar people, regardless of their claims of muslimdom, or anything else.
And people who followed the forum know I am not the one with the book. He is shooting blindly in all directions. Probably is the underlying principle of most of his behaviour and statements.
Thank you brother for all your kind words.
If being a retarded deluder by saying that we humans should live in peace and love and try to understand and we shall leave the judgements up to Allah, then ok, I understand I am retarded and I channel Satan.
If saying that we should strive to separate our wordly opinion and our faith, then yes I am retarded and a slave to Satan
By understanding one genre of art being an expression of protest against humanity's narrow mindset, ok I am retarded and channeling Satan.
By being a proud citizen of my country and striving to meet all the people in it with love, even the ones who dislike me, I am surely retarded
If loving football is retarded, yes I am the biggest retard on earth
By showing you your weakness that you go absolutely bananas if someone provokes you a little, about half of your provocation of others, well yes, call me whatever you want.It saddens me that you so very quickly forget that your reality is not everyone's reality. You say I romanticise mine. Maybe you are right but you are using the wrong description. My reality is that this world will only become good if one focuses on the good and strive to be better. Thinking everyone else are stupid and lost and facebook addicts and behaving like animals like you describe your fellow countrymen will not bring anything good. If you want to live in this bitter world you created for yourself, fine by me. I rather choose with the light of Allah as my guidance to believe that we are not supposed to be the same but we should strive to understand and respect one and eachother. We are made into different nations and tribes so we may recognise eachother.
I see this......system of Islam so brilliantly composed that you do not even have to believe in Allah in order to follow it. Like the local Imam who said "Most people do not realize they are muslims"
I am as sure as the sun is to set tonight that Allah has shown us in the last book a system that works for any society, any kind of people at any time. The only thing that can hinder this is us, people putting up barriers, people who accuse other people of channeling Satan, people who proclaim their way is the better one, people who think believing is some kind of popularity contest. -
Please read the forum rules. Stop with the insults.
Is it incidental that you post these after my posts? I don
t see anything happening when the creeps are posting. And there seem to be quite a few of them. If this posts upset you, ban I guess. I was banned in here before, and dont really find the quality of posts in here worth in anymore, so I don`t care if I get banned again. I mean if you want the company of the creeps over the gnostics, have it your way. -
Dawn
I would say at this time be supportive. as the others have said.
I personally have gay friends. My father is gay. He married my mother to appear normal, once my mother found out his secret life, she divorced him.
In my opinion, I do not think homosexuality is always a choice. Why would anyone want to have such discord in their life? I have seen the people I know lose friends, family, jobs, all sort of things because of this. As gross as it is to think of being with the same sex, to them it gross to think about being with the opposite sex. If there is no attraction, what is one to do?
Either way I hate the sin not the sinner, and I don't know everything on this matter. However, I have learned not to judge and be grateful that I don't bear that burden.
Peace be to you and your family!
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Peace
If homosexuality is normal then why God told the people of Lot in that manner as verses remind us? Why Prophet Lot asked them to have his daughters when they went to his door for his guest?
All the verses in the Quran teach that homosexuality is something that doesn?t pleases God.
One of the reasons for sending the retribution on Lot?s people was that they were committing homosexuality.
BTW it?s very deeply wrong whoever says that we can?t judge the people?God has given us the Quran?We should judge according to God?s commands?Quran must be the source of our judgments.
Asana
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Greetings and Peace, all group
...
BTW it?s very deeply wrong whoever says that we can?t judge the people?God has given us the Quran?We should judge according to God?s commands?Quran must be the source of our judgments.
Asana
It depends on what is meant by the word "judge." The word has a variety of meanings. Depending on the meaning, the answer of whether we can (or should) judge is either yes or no, ISA.
http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/judge
We are not the "final say" on any matter. There is no compulsion in the deen, so we must be careful to not attempt to force others (regardless of intent). We can form opinions. We should invite others to the deen. We should help others, without overstepping boundaries.
669 And those who are righteous are not responsible for their judgement, but to remind; perhaps they will be aware.
10109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until GOD judges. And He is the best of judges.
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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BTW its very deeply wrong whoever says that we cant judge the peopleGod has given us the QuranWe should judge according to Gods commandsQuran must be the source of our judgments.
Salam Asana
If you want to judge you must be able to set down a punishment. So what is the punishment for homosexuality?
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Salam Asana
If you want to judge you must be able to set down a punishment. So what is the punishment for homosexuality?
Shalom,
I always had the idea that homosexuality would have the same punishment as adultery. Let it be any form of sexual behavior that the Qur'an does not acknowledge as legitimate. Now, that is JUST MY OPINION. But I hate people that go around cursing the homosexual one while he/she is setting up partners to God. What a hypocrisy.
PEACE
--------------------- Student of Allah -
Peace All,
Thank you so much for taking the trouble to reply. I have been very worried that I haven't done enough to dissuade her. I understand she is very young and that this is hopefully just a phase. Thank you though for those of you who reminded me that there is no compulsion and that our job as believers is to remind and guide.
Thanks especially to Abdul Hadi's kind and gentle form of communication, it was much appreciated at a difficult time.
Peace,
Dawn.
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Salam Emil
If you want to judge you must be able to set down a punishment. So what is the punishment for homosexuality?
Not really. We can judge according to the Quran to make our decisions, stands and approaches.
If I can?t judge then how can I stand on God?s side and defend His Truth by condemning the people for their wrong belief or actions? Condemning or disassociating ourselves with those whom God is displeased needs judging through the Quran and making decision accordingly. Bearing in mind the Ultimate Judge is God.
As punishment for homosexuality verses 415-16 can be considered although you might be disagree with its interpretation then that?s another story!!
Peace
Asana -
As punishment for homosexuality verses 415-16 can be considered although you might be disagree with its interpretation then that?s another story!!
Salam Asana
Ok, this one you got to explain, how on earth did you get 415-16 to be about homosexuality?
Not really. We can judge according to the Quran to make our decisions, stands and approaches.
If I cant judge then how can I stand on Gods side and defend His Truth by condemning the people for their wrong belief or actions? Condemning or disassociating ourselves with those whom God is displeased needs judging through the Quran and making decision accordingly. Bearing in mind the Ultimate Judge is God.
Not really? Asana when you write like that do yo mean that we can judge others? Of course we can make our decisions, stands and approaches, but how does that legitimize judging others?
For argument's sake; You wear a hijab. I think wearing a hijab is idol-worshipping prophet Muhammed. Does that give me the freedom to judge you? Does that give me the right to judge you as someone who doesnt follow Allah?
I could think you are wrong, but I would never judge you. You are a sister and a human being and I have nothing but respect for you and your freedom to believe for yourself. Even if you would judge me I would still meet you with the outmost respect.I am very careful about judging in the name of Allah. If someone would ask me if I like homosexuality I would say no because to me it doesnt feel right, I could never understand how someone could be attracted to the same sex. However I would never say no because it is displeasing to Allah. How can I ever think that I understand Allah so good that I know what is displeasing to Him?
Judging certain actions are however allowed if the punishment is set down in the Quran. There is no punishment for homosexuality in the Quran, therefore we cannot judge. Eventhough we might think it is wrong we still cannot judge. And that includes judging in our heart, not only what we say.I see a fundamental difference in thought here. You want to condemn and disassociate yourself from those who are (in your opinion) displeasing Allah. You rather close the door on an atheist/homosexual/disbeliever rather than greeting him with a smile and welcome. Don't you see that if this person would ever have a chance to actually find Allah and the right path, you as a believer must show him love and respect. The minute you start judging, condemning and disassociating yourself you are turning someone away from Allah.
When you see that you must defend Allah's truth I see Allah giving us the right to defend our freedom to believe in the truth. The difference is small but enormous in meaning.Asana, don't get me wrong here. I am not saying that you must like and approve homosexuality. What I am saying is that it is ok to just feel like that, you do not need to find divine justification for your emotions.
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Hi All,
There's more. My daughter has now asked if her friend can stay overnight in our spare room while she waits for her parents to arrive from abroad to pick her up. If I said yes, I feel I would be condoning a sin, eventhough they would not be in the same room. What do people think?
Dawn. -
Hi All,
There's more. My daughter has now asked if her friend can stay overnight in our spare room while she waits for her parents to arrive from abroad to pick her up. If I said yes, I feel I would be condoning a sin, eventhough they would not be in the same room. What do people think?
Dawn.Salam Dawn
Your daughter is 17 years old? I have three younger sisters, two daughters and two sons. I know it hurts seeing your kid testing, trying, searching, rebelling and all those heart breaking things one has to endure as a parent. I know this because me and my sisters were real little rebels. I don't know how many calls from angry parents, teachers and sometimes the police my poor mother had to endure.....Now, after becoming a father I asked my mother why she didn't just locked us up and threw away the key. She answered that if she would have done so she would have 1) just postponed our adolesence until we became adults, which would mean she wouldn't be there to catch us when falling 2) Risked us kids to rebel against her and then we would have lost the one person in the entire world that would die trying to keep us from harms way.
Instead she set down some basic ground rules. She told us that we would not be punished, but we would break her heart if we ever went against the moral values of humanity (after reading the Quran I realized it was the same). Never hurt anyone on purpose, never lie to your parents, never steal, never put your life in danger (hard drugs, street racing, etc) and for the love of God never do anything to your body that you will regret for the rest of your life (get a tattoo on your forehead or something stupid like that)
Worked like a charm........We were rebels and we did a lot of stupid things, and that includes exploring our sexual desires. But we always backed off when rowdiness/rebellion became serious. We smoked pot but when our friends started trying coke and heroin we didn't because we knew it would break our mother's heart. I would never on purpose hurt a girl and my sisters never let a boy hurt them.
I don't know what country you live in, but if you do live in a western world state I promise, I guarantee, I am absolutely certain that if your daughter wants to "go against" what you say she will definately do so. You could lock her in a room without a window and she would still find a way, this I promise you.You have two options, and I thank Allah for giving me parents that went for option 1.
- Will you let your daughter know that no matter what happens, no matter how "stupid" mistakes she makes, she will have a mother who is there for her?
- Will you let your daughter know that you do not allow her to do "stupid" mistakes?
Option 1 will enable you to still be able to talk to your daughter and your daughter will with the grace of Allah actually feel that she can talk to her mother about her secrets.
Option 2 will close the door, your daughter will still make the "stupid" mistakes, but you will never find out because she will not tell you, or worse, she will start lying to you.If letting the friend sleep over feels like condoning a sin, how does it feel to put barriers between yourself and your daughter? I think putting up a barrier is a bigger sin because if your daughter might end up in real big trouble you will be not there, she will feel she cannot talk to you, that you do not understand.
It is a thin line to balance on, what to allow and disallow. All I know is that I must weigh the small sins from the big sins. I must make sure my kids will trust me to tell me when they are in trouble, and by trouble I mean life-threatening trouble such as drugs or gangs. That is the world we live in, unfortunately.
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Peace Emil,
What a wise mother you have. Thanks for taking the time to write this reply to me. It is making a big difference to my decision. I must say I am now more inclined to say yes to her, that her friend can stay. Of course, apart from hoping my daughter will take the right path, my main aim in this is not to harm my own soul. My daughter goes to school in England and I am currently working in Saudi Arabia.
Where in the world are you?
Dawn.
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Salaams Dawngorgeous,
Whilst agreeing with Emil to an extent I would condition the permission on a firm promise that nothing of a sexual nature will occur under your roof. Make clear what the Quranic position and yours is on homosexuality and tell her that if she can convince you that you have misunderstood the Quraan in this aspect you will withdraw any objections. hmm That way she will have to study what the Quraan actually says on the subject, and that may put a damper on her urges. tempt Best of luck!/ Omar
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Peace Emil,
What a wise mother you have. Thanks for taking the time to write this reply to me. It is making a big difference to my decision. I must say I am now more inclined to say yes to her, that her friend can stay. Of course, apart from hoping my daughter will take the right path, my main aim in this is not to harm my own soul. My daughter goes to school in England and I am currently working in Saudi Arabia.
Where in the world are you?
Dawn.
Salam Dawn
Yes, she is quite wise my dear old mother.
I am Swedish, grew up in Singapore and have lived in Thailand, China, Germany, England, France, Tunisia, Dubai, Brazil and for a very short time USA.............So I am pretty much everywhere )
By the way. I know very much what you are going through about the lesbian part. My sister came out of the closet years ago and I was very very angry. I went through an internal struggle, how could my sister betray me like that? How could she not think of me, I want to have a brother-in-law, I want to become an uncle. Just thinking of her kissing another girl sent shivers down my spine. I was very angry with her for a long time.
Ironically, the religion known to many as being anti-gay was the religion that made me forgive her. When I found Allah and his wisdom in the Quran I realized that I am not to be angry or pass judgement because somebody decides to go outside my perception of lewdness. I realized that just because I thought or felt in a certain manner didn't mean that was the right and only way.
By being (quite frankly) vague in the description of lewdness and on the same time condemning it Allah has shown us in a brilliant fashion that the perception of lewd comes from within. There is no way anybody can with the help of Quran make a list of what is pious or lewd sexual conduct. We can only look within and let our perception of lewdness govern us individually. To some extent govern the community we live in as well, but what really matters in the end is that we do not ourselves over-step our own limit. It hurts to see someone else over-step, especially if it is ones daughter. But we have to remember that her perception is different to yours, mine or anybody else's. All we can do is teach her that she must listen to herself and not transgress her inner perception of lewdness.Having said all that, the girl is just 17.....there is a big chance she is just trying to find herself )