Dr. Subhi Mansour on the term "muhsanat" in the Koran

Bigmo

So they know that MMA male or female have the same rights!!
And it seems that you do not see a difference between wife and concubine; so not much different from those Arabs who see (correctly) that MMA can be male or female, and like you they believe they can be husbands or lovers, too, so the castrate them to stop them from neither husbands or lovers!!

I think the sects see MMA as a slave. This means its a rape. I don't even accept slavery. I believe the Koran banned slavery outright. The Koran would not talk about emanicpating slaves if its Ok with it. Slavery is one of the things Moses accused the pharoah of doing. Moses would not have accused the pharoah of such if it was OK.

Concubines are not lovers. Their children are legitimate children and inherit their fathers like other children. They have the same right, only thing is no dowry is set and no engagement takes place (khutuba). Most marriages around the world are like that anyways. Its just eastern societies have a lot of formalities like engagement, dowry. But somehere there will be an oath. In islam they call that (katb al kitab). Usually performed in mosques where there is an oath and an agreement based on oath. In Christianity this is usually done in churches where there is an oath. Thats what concubinage is all about. Its not lovers. As said before, Hagar, Ismael,s mother, was a concubine.

Among the Israelites, men commonly acknowledged their concubines, and such women enjoyed the same rights in the house as legitimate wives. The principal difference in the Bible between a wife and a concubine is that wives had dowries, while concubines did not

In Judaism, concubines are referred to by the Hebrew term pilegesh. The term is a non-Hebrew, non-Semitic loanword deriving from the Greek word pallakis, Greek , meaning a mistress staying in house. Or the Aramaic phrase palga isha, meaning half-wife.

According to the Babylonian Talmud, the difference between a concubine and a full wife was that the latter received a marriage contract (Hebrewketubah) and her marriage (nissu'in) was preceded by a formal betrothal (erusin), neither being the case for a concubine. But, one opinion in the Jerusalem Talmud argues that the concubine should also receive a marriage contract, but without including a clause specifying a divorce settlement.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage

Notice they are talking about khutuba(engagement) and dukhla, where the couple have sex for the first time. This pratice is very common in Muslim countries. The dukhla is usually when the marriage is considered done by people. But if you ask a cleric he will tell you the marriage is done only when there is a (katb al kitab), the oath where the parent or guardian of the couple shake hand a swear and procalim the couple married with witnesses. This isnusually done in a mosque. It is then when the couple are legally married. But most people do not know this and think katb al kitab is just a ceremony. Its actually the marriage itself.

My sister did her katb al kitab months before the actual marriage ceremony. She was actually married before the marriage ceremony. My father is very conservative and did not want them to hang out without the katb al kitab. This way people won't talk. But they never had sex till the marriage ceremony took place. but they were legally binding even before that since the oath(vows) took place between their parents. We must not concern ourselves with such formalities.

Each religious faith has nuptial traditions and practices -- including standard wedding vows -- that have been passed down through generations. Exact phrases vary slightly from place to place and among different clergy; here are some popular wordings you can adopt or alter to suit your tastes.

Catholic Wedding Vows

"I, ___, take you, ___, for my lawful wife/husband, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and health, until death do us part."

Or

"I, ___, take you, ___, to be my husband/wife. I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love and honor you all the days of my life."

Episcopal Wedding Vows

"In the name of God, I, ___, take you, ___, to be my husband/wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and health, to love and to cherish, until we are parted by death -- this is my solemn vow."

Hindu Wedding Vows

Traditional Hindu wedding ceremonies are elaborate and complex. The bride and groom recite many beautiful words to each other, often including the vow-like phrases "Let us take the fourth step, to acquire knowledge, happiness, and harmony by mutual love and trust. Finally, let us take the seventh step and become true companions and remain lifelong partners by this wedlock."

Jewish Wedding Vows

In a traditional Jewish wedding -- Orthodox and sometimes Conservative -- only the groom speaks his vows, which can be recited in both Hebrew and English. The original vow is (in English transliteration), "Haray at mekudeshet lee beh-taba'at zo keh-dat Moshe veh-Yisrael," which translates into, "Behold, you are consecrated to me with this ring according to the laws of Moses and Israel."

In Reform, some Conservative, and other contemporary Jewish ceremonies, the man and woman both recite vows, slightly altered from the traditional Hebrew version "Haray ata mekudash lee beh-taba'at zo keh-dat Moshe veh-Israel." Another version of non-traditional vows is a phrase from the Song of Songs "Ani leh-dodee veh-dodee lee," which means, "I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine."

Muslim Wedding Vows

Most Muslim couples do not recite vows, but rather heed the words of the imam (cleric), who speaks about the meaning of marriage and the couple's responsibilities to each other and to Allah during the nikah, or ceremony. At the end of this ritual, the couple consents to become husband and wife, and they are blessed by the congregation. However, some Muslim brides and grooms do recite vows -- here is a common recitation

Bride "I, ___, offer you myself in marriage in accordance with the instructions of the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet, peace and blessing be upon him. I pledge, in honesty and with sincerity, to be for you an obedient and faithful wife."
Groom "I pledge, in honesty and sincerity, to be for you a faithful and helpful husband."

Protestant Wedding Vows

"I, ___, take thee, ___, to be my wedded husband/wife, to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part, according to God's holy ordinance; and thereto I pledge thee my faith/myself to you."

Quaker Wedding Vows

"In the presence of God and these our friends I take thee to be my husband/wife, promising with Divine assistance to be unto thee a loving and faithful husband/wife so long as we both shall live."

Russian Orthodox Wedding Vows

Many branches of the Orthodox church use silent vows during the ceremony -- an introspective prayer in which the couple promises to be loyal and loving to each other. In the Russian tradition, however, vows are spoken out loud "I, ___, take you, ___, as my wedded wife/husband and I promise you love, honor, and respect; to be faithful to you, and not to forsake you until death do us part. So help me God, one in the Holy Trinity, and all the Saints."

http//wedding.theknot.com/wedding-planning/wedding-ceremony/articles/traditional-wedding-vows-from-various-religions.aspx?MsdVisit=1

Concubinage is based on these oaths and vows. Its a marriage but society saw it different, but neither the Rabbis or the Muslim clerics can say concubines are not wives since they fulfilled the main requirement which is the oath (vows) between the two. These oaths are made to God. Hence adultery is breaking that oath someone made to God.

huruf

I tend to accept as good Samia's suggestion of a marriage without sex or that of Bigmo and others of a different kind of marriage in which the usual considerations are not followed. But the name itself to me depicts is as a pact with some rules, which makes equivalent to a marriage but with a rebate in the requirements. Which requirements are going to be rebated, could be a matter of circumstances, usage, somehting adaptable. May be God has wanted to give a leeway for people always to have an honorable way of living under any circumstances. It might be like today even de facto unions, which may or may not include sex, which are not wrong in themselves, but for which some requirements are done away with. But the pint being that the relationship is acknowledged, honoured as well as the obligations that come with it.

I guess this "lesser requirements" factor might cover all the occurrences of MMA in the Qur'an, but I am not sure, because every time somebody thins to have nailed, there crops up one or more instances which fail to fit, so it is just one more try. What seems interesting is that the the name itself seems to allow for plenty of conditions that would fit.

Salaam

Bigmo

I do not think that MMA is conditional to poligamy. That is, whether poligamy is allowed or not, one can have MMA, if it is monogamous, just one MMA and no ther consort and if poligamy is allowed, then whatever it allows. They are two separate things, as I see it.

Salaam

I did not say polygamy was a condition for MMA. i said the term "concubine" as understood in European society is different how the Bible and Koran understood it. Concubine in European society was a mistress, but in the Bible and Koran its a legal wife who inherites her husband like any other wife and her children also inherit their parents.

huruf

I was not answering you but Where is the truth. Sorry if a didn't make that clear.

Salaam

Samia

Hello Bigmo

You keep saying that MMA is a marriage without dowry, although I responded to your post on the first page on the 25th of August with a verse that clearly shows that MMA have the same rights as any wife, and that the only difference is the permission of the family.
Have you even read this post below?

Says who?
Definitely not God

4 24

And an already married man cannot marry a MMA. Polygamy is very restricted. Taking a MMA is not mentioned as a condition for polygamy. The qur'aan always speak of "your/their spouses OR your/their MMA". Never both of them. It's a marriage albeit for a specific people, those who are unable to consummate marriage (425). They enter into a MMA marriage and they and their spouses are milku yameen each other. That's why only in this case is the family's permission mentioned. They have to know what their son/ daughter is up to and that they are going to marry some one who cannot consummate marriage.

The muhsan, is therefore, the opposite immune of this disability. (muhsan means immune).

A2Z

If you look at the wording in the Old Testament it says "wives and concubines". Its the same with the Koran it says "wives and MMA". Same thing.

You don't need to look far. Verse 425 suggests that there are two different status of women Muslim man can choose to marry.

425 And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

A man who can afford, can choose to marry free-believing women, else he can marry MMA. If the former classified as ?free? then what is the status of MMA in this verse?

Bigmo

Hello Bigmo

You keep saying that MMA is a marriage without dowry, although I responded to your post on the first page on the 25th of August with a verse that clearly shows that MMA have the same rights as any wife, and that the only difference is the permission of the family.
Have you even read this post below?

I think what the verse is saying is that if you can not marry due to finances or whatever reason, then you can have an MMA or then you can make her your MMA. But try to establish some form of financial arrangment. I think this is what its saying.

Samia

I think what the verse is saying is that if you can not marry due to finances or whatever reason, then you can have an MMA or then you can make her your MMA. But try to establish some form of financial arrangment. I think this is what its saying.

"Establish some form of financial arrangement" is your own wordings, not what the verse says. There is no difference in the "ajr" paid to MMA or to a spouse in the usual marriage in the wordings of all verses on any kind of marriage

....Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye pay them their due "ajr", ....(55)

O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their "ajr"; ....(3350)

.... if ye ascertain that they are Believers, then send them not back to the Unbelievers. They are not lawful for the Unbelievers, nor are the (Unbelievers) lawful for them. But pay the Unbelievers what they have spent; and there will be no blame on you if ye marry them on paying them their "ajr" . .....(6010)

As for financial difficulties, verse 2432 does not mention MMA. It clearly says if they are poor

Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things

Besides, if they are mainly poor, why ask them to pay "any form of financial payment" in the first place? Is there any specific amount of "ajr" so as to understand that the amount here is reduced, for example?
So we can eliminate poverty as a condition for a MMA kind of marriage.

Samia

An important characteristic of the MMA marriage which led me to suggest a sexless marriage is the punishment when they commit adultery

If they become "muhsan", and if they (then) fall into shame, their punishment is half that for (the muhsan). This (permission) is for those among you who fear difficulty/ hardship but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Nowhere in the qur'aan is there any mention of mitigating punishment, not even for poor who steal. But here, the spouse in an MMA has mitigating circumstances when they have sex outside marriage, for the only reason they do not have sex withing the marriage. The verse at the end advise them to be patient. Quite soft with them when compared to the wordings of the punishment for adultery..

A2Z

Well, I hope we both can agree that slavery is a terrible thing and is totally haram. A human can only be the slave of God and NOBODY else.

Not really true as below verses are meant for a master to preach to his servants or slaves.

3910 Say O my servants who believe! be careful of (your duty to) your Lord; for those who do good in this world is good, and Allah's earth is spacious; only the patient will be paid back their reward in full without measure.

3953 Say O my servants! who have acted extravagantly against their own souls, do not despair of the mercy of Allah; surely Allah forgives the faults altogether; surely He is the Forgiving the Merciful.

Also, there is no verse in Quran that clearly stated 'haram' to slavery.

Bigmo

An important characteristic of the MMA marriage which led me to suggest a sexless marriage is the punishment when they commit adultery

If they become "muhsan", and if they (then) fall into shame, their punishment is half that for (the muhsan). This (permission) is for those among you who fear difficulty/ hardship but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Nowhere in the qur'aan is there any mention of mitigating punishment, not even for poor who steal. But here, the spouse in an MMA has mitigating circumstances when they have sex outside marriage, for the only reason they do not have sex withing the marriage. The verse at the end advise them to be patient. Quite soft with them when compared to the wordings of the punishment for adultery..

Well I am depending on the OT since that is all I can do. i am not aware of the social conditions in Medina. I am not really aware what is the social conditions of MMA and exactly who they are. The OT is not arab pagan societies and I do not know exactly how their marraiges were done. Marraiges differ in different cultures. Even slavery differs in different cultures. But from what i see it seems its somewhat of a similar arrangement as the concubinage in the OT. But of course I could be wrong.

In the end we know that marriage is what is recomended and MMA is a last resort. We now MMA relationshops are more vulnerable and they should get whatever punsishments that other marriages get by half. This is what we can deduce from the Koran.

I am not too concerned about the details of the Muhammedan era except what helps in our salvation. We can try to see how we can fit these verses in modern societies. We can use analogy and logic and experience. Sometimes the Koran choses to be vague to see what future generations will do.

But I do know one thing, the slavery part is out. This is rape. No matter how people try to twist and turn it, its rape. The Koran ordered us to emancipate the slaves and never told us to have slaves. It also was condemned by Moses and it was an act that Jospeh's brothers did to Joseph. Its an act, in the Koran, that evil people do. Not believers do. Many Koranist have accepted the slave part and have found themselves playing tricks with the translation . Like Ahmed mansour claiming that "ask permission from their familY" as "ask their owners" or trying to claim that women can be solitary in the house with "female MMA" even though the verse never said that.

As fas as ajr and dowry, once again I am relying on the OT and Judaic tradition. Its the only source I can rely on for now. But i am not sure exactly how the Arab pagans practiced their marriages and what arrangements they have.

But from what it seems its seems like a similar arrangement as the Biblical societies. But i could be wrong.

WhereIsTheTruth

Not really true as below verses are meant for a master to preach to his servants or slaves.

3910 Say O my servants who believe! be careful of (your duty to) your Lord; for those who do good in this world is good, and Allah's earth is spacious; only the patient will be paid back their reward in full without measure.

3953 Say O my servants! who have acted extravagantly against their own souls, do not despair of the mercy of Allah; surely Allah forgives the faults altogether; surely He is the Forgiving the Merciful.

Also, there is no verse in Quran that clearly stated 'haram' to slavery.

Hehe your criminal ideas are just laughable. You are arguing that god allows you to make people your property, force them to work for you and other kinds of human traficking when even UN forbids it. let me remind you, making people your property is a crime according to international law, there are large jails builds up for these criminals like you.

Secondly you show me a translation with the word 'servant' and argue that servant means slave. First of all 'ebad' means human. 3bd means slave.

Yes quran does not say 'don't take slaves' just like quran does not say that i cannot rape you or force anyone to marry me. The truth is, that all these things come inside 'opression' which is worse than murder.

But if you insists that people should have other lords than god, which is idolworship, can i than buy you? I really want to have you as my slave lol.

Bigmo

Hehe your criminal ideas are just laughable. You are arguing that god allows you to make people your property, force them to work for you and other kinds of human traficking when even UN forbids it. let me remind you, making people your property is a crime according to international law, there are large jails builds up for these criminals like you.

Secondly you show me a translation with the word 'servant' and argue that servant means slave. First of all 'ebad' means human. 3bd means slave.

Yes quran does not say 'don't take slaves' just like quran does not say that i cannot rape you or force anyone to marry me. The truth is, that all these things come inside 'opression' which is worse than murder.

But if you insists that people should have other lords than god, which is idolworship, can i than buy you? I really want to have you as my slave lol.

Looking at the Islamic sects, they legalized slavery because of one reason and one reason only and that is MMA. So we can see the wisdom here. Maybe its the Koran's way to test the future generations after Muhammad and what spin they will do. But from the discussion we had so far regarding MMA, their theory hangs on a thread. Most often they had to place words in the Koran to make the verses fit. Its somewhat surprising that even some Koranist fell for the trap. I think it could be because they got influenced by the hadiths.

Not much oxygen there for the Islam bashers. In fact I think there is more oxygen for those who opposse polygamy. At least that is somewhat the Koran did recognize. But other than that they have no real oxygen. So the Islam bashers would try their best to delegitimize us since the Koran gives them no oxygen. They would rather deal with the sects where they have plenty of oxygen to breathe from.

This is something we will have to face from now. A delegitimization campaign where our Islam will be labelled "unauthentic".

A2Z

Secondly you show me a translation with the word 'servant' and argue that servant means slave. First of all 'ebad' means human. 3bd means slave.

Yes quran does not say 'don't take slaves' .........

'Ebad' and 'Ebd' share same Arabic root which is ayn b dl. As far as I know, only you translated 'Ebad' as 'human' while rest of the translators translated the 'ebad' or 'ebd' as 'servant' or 'slave' including the Quran translation available in Free-Minds site.

http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=slave

While the Arabic root for 'human' is b shn r.

http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=human

Checked with Free-Minds' Quran translation for verse 3910 and 3953, the word 'ebad' being translated as 'servant'.

3910 Say O My servants who believed, be aware of your Lord. For those who worked righteousness in this world will be a good reward, and the earth of God is spacious. Those who steadfastly persevere will receive their recompense fully, without reckoning.

3953 Say O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of the mercy of God. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.

Below are more Quran translations copied from Free-Minds' site which having Arabic root ayn b dl.

1675 God puts forth the example of a slave who is owned and cannot achieve anything, against one whom We have provided a good provision which he spends of it secretly and openly. Are they the same? Praise be to God, but most of them do not know.

2347 So they said "Shall we believe to two human beings like us, while their people are servants to us?"

Better still, the word 'human' is also spelled in verse 2347 which using Arabic root b shn r.

Please share with us how did you came to conclusion that 'ebad' carry the meaning of 'human'?

WhereIsTheTruth