WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you,

Please do this for me, just tell me EXACTLY what a "jinn" is. I am not going to reply to these long posts so that you can hide your weak position in a bunch of words. State PLAINLY what a "jinn" is. Please also show how your definition fits with the root of the word.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you PB,

My apologies to you brother. I have gotten out of my original nature of peace. I looked over the last few posts and see that my language and character is out of line and for that I apologize.

My position however remains the same and I would still like you to give me ONLY a clear definition of the following words so that I can debate them. I want to cut down the size of these posts so that everyone can follow along.

jinn=
malaika=
shayteen=

[unknownuser]

Peace,

Please do this for me, just tell me EXACTLY what a "jinn" is. I am not going to reply to these long posts so that you can hide your weak position in a bunch of words. State PLAINLY what a "jinn" is. Please also show how your definition fits with the root of the word.

Good Lord, this topic has stretched to 20 pages and has been thoroughly and meticulously laid out and explained by Priest_Bokmei, (and others) masha-Allah, detailing verse by verse, yet Kyle's insistence to misunderstand.

Kyle, as pointed out many times, not only do you re-word, re-phrase, re-name, contradict and conjecture/extrapolate verses of the Quran, but you seem to continously do the same with others explanations as well, injecting irrelevant, inconsistent and meaningless versions of your own, thus your relentless lack of understanding and confusion. Relax dude, while carefully understanding the entire Quran, as well as others' reasonings, with dedication and thought, rather than hip-hopping back and forth hopelessly.

LOL! You've defined Iblis as a malaika, a Jinn, a thought, and a dabbatin! Left to you, soon, he will be a N. Y. Yankee!
lol

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Danish,

It seems you are convinced of PB's opinion, so you do not see my position, which is fine, but to say that PB has meticulously laid out anything is a far stretch. I am trying to narrow the conversation down so that it will be easier to follow. Then hopefully instead of laughing you will see the inconsistency.

Danish, since you understand PB's position, please address why "There is NO(none) God but the God" does not fall into his rule of "All " and "Except", which even the dictionaries reject.

LOL! You've defined Iblis as a malaika, a Jinn, a thought, and a dabbatin! Left to you, soon, he will be a N. Y. Yankee!

1. malaika- since it was the malaika whom the God ordered, and THEY prostrated EXCEPT iblis, and iblis was held accountable for not prostrating, that makes iblis a malaika.

2. jinn- since you follow PB, I am sure I don't need to explain this one, but I will. Jinn means "covered". It is a description of ALL of the beings which cannot be seen.

3. thought- this whole story is SYMBOLIC of the thought processes that we have going on all the time. "Iblis" (desperate) is the description of a mindset that results from rejecting thoughts(shayteen).

4. dabbatin- My entire argument is above and has remained the same. Please show me where I called "iblis" a dabbatan. Dabatan are the creature os the earth including humans. A human can have an "iblis" mentality.

5. N.Y. Yankee- this was an antictode to keep you amused by PB. Looks like it worked. I would have said Philadelphis Eagle, but it still would have been a JOKE.

So Danish, where is the hip hopping back and forth hopelessly that you speak of? My position is not only consistent, but it is in the same context as the ROOTS of these words in question. How do the ROOT MEANINGS fit into the understanding that you and PB share?

Is PB a real priest? Because it seems like he has following of "believers" with him. No offense intended, that is just how it appears and I wanted to be sure.

Lastly, Danish, if you would like to , you can also give me your definition of the terms I listed so we can narrow down this conversation. Yes, it is 20 pages, but that is because no one is forced to answer the questions posed. The posts start getting long so as to avoid the pertinent questions. I intent to resolve that.

[unknownuser]

Peace Kyle,

It seems you are convinced of PB's opinion, so you do not see my position, which is fine, but to say that PB has meticulously laid out anything is a far stretch.

20 pages and including other threads, detailing, explaining, reasoning, counter-reasoning, is truely far stretched (glad you didn?t mention far-fetched), overboarding and repetitious for the ones who refuse to or cannot understand. PB has no doubt, meticulously done an excellent job.

The Quran is crystal clear about angels, in that they DO NOT DISOBEY GOD'S COMMANDS AND DO WHATEVER THEY ARE TOLD AND THAT, WE, AS HUMANS, ARE COMMANDED TO BELEIVE IN AND OBEY THEM. Yet you insist that they do disobey by bringing bizzare jinnic theories. Quran is explicit about Angels who DO NOT DISOBEY and is explicit on Jinns and Humans who DO DISOBEY. Now what's so difficult about this that you cannot understand? No need to bring the "exceptions rule", it doesn't apply here and would contradict the above. Besides, it?s a matter of contextual understanding. If angels can disobey GOD, then can you believe in and obey the angels as per GOD?s commands?

The problem is that you tend to stray-off and venture out to Mars, hence not being able to clearly understand what's being said. For example, I talked about a "JUNGLE" and you narrowed it down to one-on-one human office (boss and employee); I talked about "Man" (male and female) and you narrowed down to males only and their penises shock and brought about bizzare scenario of a pet store. This is how you lack understanding of others? explanations, travel to Mars and extrapolate? One of the reasons why you refuse to understand that Iblis, being a jinn, couldn?t have been an angel, given the explicit/clear verses of the Quran. No wonder you love to narrow down conversations.

I am trying to narrow the conversation down so that it will be easier to follow.

Kyle, what good would summarized/shortened conversations do when the lengthy, more detailed ones seem misfits to you. Besides, your narrowed conversations tend to be more faulty, as explained earlier.

Then hopefully instead of laughing you will see the inconsistency.

The laugh was not on your inconsistencies but the way NY Yankee was bought up. As a matter of fact, inconsistencies, contradictions and Martian theories in your explanations already exists abundantly. I have no desire to collect all your posts and pin-point the hip-hopping effects. I?ve seen enough, to tell you truth.

LOL! You've defined Iblis as a malaika, a Jinn, a thought, and a dabbatin! Left to you, soon, he will be a N. Y. Yankee! lol

Danish, since you understand PB's position, please address why "There is NO(none) God but the God" does not fall into his rule of "All " and "Except", which even the dictionaries reject.

How does "NO god BUT GOD" correlate/support "All angels except Iblis"? You have no idea what you are talking about. Would it deem fit to say "All gods but GOD" or "No angels except Iblis"? Do you understand the differences? Gosh, Kyle, please stop bringing silly adventurous notions, wasting unecessary time and efforts, hip-hopping back and forth.

1. malaika- since it was the malaika whom the God ordered, and THEY prostrated EXCEPT iblis, and iblis was held accountable for not prostrating, that makes iblis a malaika.

Poor or lack of contemplation. Contradicts GOD?s Words and even your very own. Malaika DO NOT have the power to disobey and are commanded to do whatever they are told, as per the Quran. Thus, if they are commanded to prostrate, they ALL did. No ifs, buts, excepts or otherwise. Comprende!!! Iblis was a jinn among other spirits, he disobeyed and that's the exception.

2. jinn- since you follow PB, I am sure I don't need to explain this one, but I will. Jinn means "covered". It is a description of ALL of the beings which cannot be seen.

Please, make up your mind Kyle, is jinn a being, a thought, a cover, a behaviour or what? Stop guessing/conjecturing. Or would he become a NY Yankee, as PB implied. lol

3. thought- this whole story is SYMBOLIC of the thought processes that we have going on all the time. "Iblis" (desperate) is the description of a mindset that results from rejecting thoughts(shayteen).

So now an angel named Iblis who DISOBEYS GOD?s COMMANDS, yet we are told that angels DO NOT DISOBEY GOD?S COMMANDS, suddenly becomes desperate and rejects GOD?s commands and remains an angel? Therefore we must believe in and obey Iblis as well, since he is an angel. Hmmm, adventurous Martian theory.

4. dabbatin- My entire argument is above and has remained the same. Please show me where I called "iblis" a dabbatan. Dabatan are the creature os the earth including humans. A human can have an "iblis" mentality.

If dabbattan are creatures of the earth and Iblis was a malaika, who was thrown down on earth, then wouldn?t Iblis become a dabbattan, a creature on earth, as you call it. Or is it another one of your Martian theories.

5. N.Y. Yankee- this was an antictode to keep you amused by PB. Looks like it worked. I would have said Philadelphis Eagle, but it still would have been a JOKE.

Actually, it worked pretty well, the NY Yankee was addressed to amuse YOU, should the jinn become one. See how you re-word, re-phrase and bring about your own Philadelphis Eagle. Tricky, isn?t it? Hey, I'll laugh to this one as well, since the NY Yankee became a Philadelphis Eagle lol .

So Danish, where is the hip hopping back and forth hopelessly that you speak of?

See above, read and understand your own previous posts and others as well throughout this forum, you'll find your invented hip-hop dances, which btw, you yourself can't seem to understand. Sorry brother, but that's what it is.

Is PB a real priest? Because it seems like he has following of "believers" with him. No offense intended, that is just how it appears and I wanted to be sure.

I sense jealousy and extreme sarcasm on your part. Stick to the basics. I follow the message and PB (as well as few others) does a good job at it, i.e. sending out the message with proper understanding and reasoning.

Lastly, Danish, if you would like to , you can also give me your definition of the terms I listed so we can narrow down this conversation. Yes, it is 20 pages, but that is because no one is forced to answer the questions posed. The posts start getting long so as to avoid the pertinent questions. I intent to resolve that.

It seems very unlikely that you will resolve this, simply because you are adamant and persistent upon contradictions, inconsistencies, extrapolations and wishy-washy notions which you bring about to prove your case and then insist that there isn't one.

GOD bless and GOD help!

[unknownuser]

PEACE IDOL

Danish's, reply to you was an excellent summation, what more do you require, at this point?

Anyway...

Did you bother to really reflect on these ayats or did you just blow past them? In light of these ayats, how can you possibly take the position you do? Listen, I know you don't want to admit that you're wrong, but to assign rebellion to Allah's malaika, is haram.

2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.

4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Apostle and the Book which He has revealed to His Apostle and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His apostles and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

Now, how could Allah, tell us to believe in the angels, which, btw, He incorporates in the same ayat with Himself, His Quran, and His Messengers, if some of them could disobey?!?!? If one, so-called malaika, could disobey Allah, then what is preventing others from doing so or having done so? How, then, can anyone trust the above two ayats? You'd better re-think your position, because you are assigning to Allah's malaika, something which He has not i.e. that they can disobey Him, hence, you are slandering Allah and His malaika.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Danish,

20 pages and including other threads, detailing, explaining, reasoning, counter-reasoning, is truely far stretched (glad you didn?t mention far-fetched), overboarding and repetitious for the ones who refuse to or cannot understand. PB has no doubt, meticulously done an excellent job.

You are welcome to your own opinion, if that is where your reasoning takes you. All of PB/dhuls evidence has been shown incorrect and there are several unanswered contradictions. Just because he ignores the questions or anwers them incorrectly for 20 pages does not equal that a "meticulous job" has been done.

The Quran is crystal clear about angels,

Its no wonder you both cannot grasp this concept when you cannot even give up saying "angels", what is an "angel"? The word "malaika" in NO WAY can be translated as "angel". Why don't you do yourself a favor and study the root word "M-L-K" and see how its derivatives are used.

in that they DO NOT DISOBEY GOD'S COMMANDS AND DO WHATEVER THEY ARE TOLD AND THAT, WE, AS HUMANS, ARE COMMANDED TO BELEIVE IN AND OBEY THEM. Yet you insist that they do disobey by bringing bizzare jinnic theories. Quran is explicit about Angels who DO NOT DISOBEY and is explicit on Jinns and Humans who DO DISOBEY. Now what's so difficult about this that you cannot understand? No need to bring the "exceptions rule", it doesn't apply here and would contradict the above.

Why does not the exception rule apply here? I have bolded that question because I think you might try to go around it. Please give us the criteria for when we can and cannot use the "exception rule". Lets look at it again;

They prostrated EXCEPT iblis. Who is THEY? Has anyone answered this question yet?

WHO IS THEY?

Besides, it?s a matter of contextual understanding. If angels can disobey GOD, then can you believe in and obey the angels as per GOD?s commands?

I don't know what "angels" are. I am discussing "those controlled" (malaika), from the root M-L-K which deals with control. I don't recall being told to obey "malaika", I am told to have faith in them, and yes, I do have faith in my controlled thoughts that come from the God. I also know that if I give the CONTROL over to my emotions/passions, I am on the wrong path.

The problem is that you tend to stray-off and venture out to Mars, hence not being able to clearly understand what's being said. For example, I talked about a "JUNGLE" and you narrowed it down to one-on-one human office (boss and employee); I talked about "Man" (male and female) and you narrowed down to males only and their penises and brought about bizzare scenario of a pet store. This is how you lack understanding of others? explanations, travel to Mars and extrapolate? One of the reasons why you refuse to understand that Iblis, being a jinn, couldn?t have been an angel, given the explicit/clear verses of the Quran. No wonder you love to narrow down conversations.

I hope you will study this seriously one day. Until then, go back to school and study EXCEPTIONS.

WHO IS THEY? D

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Danish,

Quote
I am trying to narrow the conversation down so that it will be easier to follow.

Kyle, what good would summarized/shortened conversations do when the lengthy, more detailed ones seem misfits to you. Besides, your narrowed conversations tend to be more faulty, as explained earlier.

You should be a politician, you are good with misleading words. The long posts are very easy for me but I am concerned about those who want to follow along. My intention is to shortne the posts so we can break down each issue seperately.Its like aperson being on stage in a group, or being by themselves, more pressure when you are by yourself because everyone can catch your mistake. I can understand if you don't want ALL EYES ON YOU.

Quote
Then hopefully instead of laughing you will see the inconsistency.

The laugh was not on your inconsistencies but the way NY Yankee was bought up. As a matter of fact, inconsistencies, contradictions and Martian theories in your explanations already exists abundantly. I have no desire to collect all your posts and pin-point the hip-hopping effects. I?ve seen enough, to tell you truth.

I think it would benefit you greatly to collect all of my posts.

Quote
Danish, since you understand PB's position, please address why "There is NO(none) God but the God" does not fall into his rule of "All " and "Except", which even the dictionaries reject.

How does "NO god BUT GOD" correlate/support "All angels except Iblis"? You have no idea what you are talking about. Would it deem fit to say "All gods but GOD" or "No angels except Iblis"? Do you understand the differences? Gosh, Kyle, please stop bringing silly adventurous notions, wasting unecessary time and efforts, hip-hopping back and forth.

You are right, I am wasting time on a person (I assume that PB has a better explanation that this) that does not understand exceptions. Your examples above are glaring proof that you have no clue.

Quote

1. malaika- since it was the malaika whom the God ordered, and THEY prostrated EXCEPT iblis, and iblis was held accountable for not prostrating, that makes iblis a malaika.

Poor or lack of contemplation. Contradicts GOD?s Words and even your very own.

I am sorry you feel that way.

Malaika DO NOT have the power to disobey and are commanded to do whatever they are told, as per the Quran. Thus, if they are commanded to prostrate, they ALL did. No ifs, buts, excepts or otherwise. Comprende!!! Iblis was a jinn among other spirits, he disobeyed and that's the exception.

No exceptions? Its in the VERY SAME VERSE!

Why don't you do this, tell me EXACTLY why EXCEPT is in this verse, what is the PURPOSE of that word in this verse?

Quote
2) jinn- since you follow PB, I am sure I don't need to explain this one, but I will. Jinn means "covered". It is a description of ALL of the beings which cannot be seen.

Please, make up your mind Kyle, is jinn a being, a thought, a cover, a behaviour or what? Stop guessing/conjecturing. Or would he become a NY Yankee, as PB implied.

I am starting to think you might still be in school, how old are you? I have explaned my position in detail, instead of at least acknowledging my position, even if you think it is wrong, you stoop to the childish game of continuing to say I have not made up my mind. At least be righteous enough as to not lie about my position for fear of being wrong.

Quote
3) thought- this whole story is SYMBOLIC of the thought processes that we have going on all the time. "Iblis" (desperate) is the description of a mindset that results from rejecting thoughts(shayteen).

So now an angel named Iblis who DISOBEYS GOD?s COMMANDS, yet we are told that angels DO NOT DISOBEY GOD?S COMMANDS, suddenly becomes desperate and rejects GOD?s commands and remains an angel? Therefore we must believe in and obey Iblis as well, since he is an angel. Hmmm, adventurous Martian theory.

The problem is that you keep saying "angel" when I have said no such thing. Yes, malaika don't disobey, when they do they are no longer described as "malaika", but then become "shyateen".

Just like if you had a group of people that were submitting(muslim), but then one of them steals a pocketbook, he is no longer a submitter, but instead a rejector.

Quote
4) dabbatin- My entire argument is above and has remained the same. Please show me where I called "iblis" a dabbatan. Dabatan are the creature os the earth including humans. A human can have an "iblis" mentality.

If dabbattan are creatures of the earth and Iblis was a malaika, who was thrown down on earth, then wouldn?t Iblis become a dabbattan, a creature on earth, as you call it. Or is it another one of your Martian theories.

Why would a mindset "iblis" become a dabbatin?

Quote
5) N.Y. Yankee- this was an antictode to keep you amused by PB. Looks like it worked. I would have said Philadelphis Eagle, but it still would have been a JOKE.

Actually, it worked pretty well, the NY Yankee was addressed to amuse YOU, should the jinn become one. See how you re-word, re-phrase and bring about your own Philadelphis Eagle. Tricky, isn?t it? Hey, I'll laugh to this one as well, since the NY Yankee became a Philadelphis Eagle .

Go ahead and keep trying to kick those footballs Charlie Brown!

Quote
So Danish, where is the hip hopping back and forth hopelessly that you speak of?

See above, read and understand your own previous posts and others as well throughout this forum, you'll find your invented hip-hop dances, which btw, you yourself can't seem to understand. Sorry brother, but that's what it is.

Just like I thought, no proof.

Quote
Is PB a real priest? Because it seems like he has following of "believers" with him. No offense intended, that is just how it appears and I wanted to be sure.

I sense jealousy and extreme sarcasm on your part. Stick to the basics. I follow the message and PB (as well as few others) does a good job at it, i.e. sending out the message with proper understanding and reasoning.

Make sure you put something in his collection plate before you leave.

Quote
Lastly, Danish, if you would like to , you can also give me your definition of the terms I listed so we can narrow down this conversation. Yes, it is 20 pages, but that is because no one is forced to answer the questions posed. The posts start getting long so as to avoid the pertinent questions. I intent to resolve that.

It seems very unlikely that you will resolve this, simply because you are adamant and persistent upon contradictions, inconsistencies, extrapolations and wishy-washy notions which you bring about to prove your case and then insist that there isn't one.

Peace to you.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you,

Danish's, reply to you was an excellent summation, what more do you require, at this point?

I see you as well will shy away from the point by poiint debate.

Anyway...

Did you bother to really reflect on these ayats or did you just blow past them?

I gathered verses , studied, reflected, re studied, re read, reflected, gave to charity, reflected, etc.

In light of these ayats, how can you possibly take the position you do?

Because I understand a simple sentence containing an exception.
THEY prostrated except iblis. Who is THEY?

Listen, I know you don't want to admit that you're wrong, but to assign rebellion to Allah's malaika, is haram.

Haram? "shiver" I am really scared now. wink As can be shown ALL OVER this forum, I have no problem admitting when I am wrong because I am not here to prove I am right, I am here to understand correctly. I have admitted to being wrong on several occasions and have no shame in admitting that. You however have a big problem with that.

2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.

4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Apostle and the Book which He has revealed to His Apostle and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His apostles and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

Now, how could Allah, tell us to believe in the angels, which, btw, He incorporates in the same ayat with Himself, His Quran, and His Messengers, if some of them could disobey?!?!?

Let me stop you here, do you believe in iblis? Do you believe in rejectors and hypocrites? The God is not telling us to believe in anything, He is telling us to have faith in them, big difference.

And again, you fail to understand that when Iblis the malaika rejected, he discontinued being a malaika. So there is no problem in having faith in the malaika.

If one, so-called malaika, could disobey Allah, then what is preventing others from doing so or having done so?

Iblis is a mindset, there are MANY "iblis", just as "Adam" is not a man, but MANKIND.

How, then, can anyone trust the above two ayats? You'd better re-think your position, because you are assigning to Allah's malaika, something which He has not i.e. that they can disobey Him, hence, you are slandering Allah and His malaika.

Did you here when I said that once a malaika disobeys, they become shayteen? Iblis is the mindset of one who obeys shayteen.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you,

Pointy by point,

They prostrated except iblis.

Who is THEY?

[unknownuser]

Peace Kyle,

Why does not the exception rule apply here? I have bolded that question because I think you might try to go around it. Please give us the criteria for when we can and cannot use the "exception rule".

Has already been meticulously explained. And ah yes, please don't go around it.

They prostrated EXCEPT iblis. Who is THEY? Has anyone answered this question yet?

WHO IS THEY?

Pointy by point,
They prostrated except iblis.
Who is THEY?

Because I understand a simple sentence containing an exception.
THEY prostrated except iblis. Who is THEY?

They prostrated EXCEPT iblis. Who is THEY? Has anyone answered this question yet?

WHO IS THEY?

Repetitious and waste of time.

And again, you fail to understand that when Iblis the malaika rejected, he discontinued being a malaika.

If Iblis discontinued being a malaika, then what did he become, a NY Yankee or a Philidelphis Eagle? lol

I think it would benefit you greatly to collect all of my posts.

I don't have the nerves nor time to collect many of you mesmerising, repetitious and gibberish talks. Only a few of your posts throughout this forum which makes good sense that I do honor.

Why don't you do this, tell me EXACTLY why EXCEPT is in this verse, what is the PURPOSE of that word in this verse?

"Tell me EXACTLY what this means and tell me EXACTLY what that means", childish notions. Everything pertaining to Jinns, angels, creatures, etc., has been explained in detail many times earlier by quite a few talented members. Start from page 1 of this thread including a few others and you'll get all the answers EXACTLY. No need to repeat over and over and over again EXACTLY. Its like teaching a child a zillion times and yet he/she cannot understand... HOPELESS.

I am starting to think you might still be in school, how old are you? I have explaned my position in detail, instead of at least acknowledging my position, even if you think it is wrong, you stoop to the childish game of continuing to say I have not made up my mind. At least be righteous enough as to not lie about my position for fear of being wrong.

Make sure you put something in his collection plate before you leave.

Your own words proves your credibility. You are not only strifen with emotional setback, persistent with egoistic nature but also driven to unknown worlds. Please, lets not get off-track bearing personal vendetta and stick to the core subject matter. Understand or do you want me to repeat this over again EXACTLY.

The problem is that you keep saying "angel" when I have said no such thing. Yes, malaika don't disobey, when they do they are no longer described as "malaika", but then become "shyateen".

You keep saying "malaika", an Arabic word, while I say "angels", an English word. What is your problem? Don't you undertand certain English words or are you trying to twist and confuse others?

You admit that angels (malaika) don't disobey (in bold above) and then you say "when they do". What nonsense? Where do you come up with such bizzare theories? Point to one verse in the Quran that mentions explicitly that malaika (angels) disobeys and I, PB and others have already shown you several that they don't, yet you insist. What a joke and mockery of the Quran that you make? Talk sense at least.

See above, read and understand your own previous posts and others as well throughout this forum, you'll find your invented hip-hop dances, which btw, you yourself can't seem to understand. Sorry brother, but that's what it is.

Just like I thought, no proof.

Your lack of contemplation and hip-hopping speaks for itself. You will find all the proofs repeated again and again throughout this thread, hence my statement quoted above. Gosh, I am getting tired of repeating this to you myself. No need to ask for proofs repeatedly when they are already given.

You are welcome to your own opinion, if that is where your reasoning takes you.

My reasoning is bought about by Quranic contexts and natural facts, not opinions and definitely not from unknown worlds like you bring about.

All of PB/dhuls evidence has been shown incorrect and there are several unanswered contradictions. Just because he ignores the questions or anwers them incorrectly for 20 pages does not equal that a "meticulous job" has been done.

As a matter of fact, its the other way around. Your lack of understanding, incorrect and inconsistent bizzare dramatic theories and unanswered questions have truely led to 20 pages and building up. You insist and hesitate to reason with.

I don't know what "angels" are. I am discussing "those controlled" (malaika), from the root M-L-K which deals with control. I don't recall being told to obey "malaika", I am told to have faith in them, and yes, I do have faith in my controlled thoughts that come from the God. I also know that if I give the CONTROL over to my emotions/passions, I am on the wrong path.

Emphasis is on "HIS ANGELS", not "YOUR CONTROLLED THOUGHTS".

Its no wonder you both cannot grasp this concept when you cannot even give up saying "angels", what is an "angel"? The word "malaika" in NO WAY can be translated as "angel". Why don't you do yourself a favor and study the root word "M-L-K" and see how its derivatives are used.

I don't know what "angels" are. I am discussing "those controlled" (malaika), from the root M-L-K which deals with control. I don't recall being told to obey "malaika", I am told to have faith in them, and yes, I do have faith in my controlled thoughts that come from the God. I also know that if I give the CONTROL over to my emotions/passions, I am on the wrong path.

Questions

1. If "malaika" are not angels, then what is the Arabic word for angels?
2. In the entire Quran, GOD says "HIS angels"? Who is "HIS" here? Can you control thoughts of HIM if angels meant "controlled thoughts"???
3. If we, as humans, were to BELIEVE IN AND OBEY THE ANGELS, as per GOD's commands, then how is it possible to believe in and obey a fallen angel named IBLIS, a shaytaan (devil)? Perhaps only you can.

Please answer the above questions before you venture out to some unknown worlds.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Danish,

I won't respond to the evasive responses you gave, I will however address your questions and not run from them.

Questions

1. If "malaika" are not angels, then what is the Arabic word for angels?

Who cares, why are you entering this message with PRE CONCEIVED IDEAS about some fairy tale creatures?

Malaika are "those controlled" and YES, they belong to the God.

2. In the entire Quran, GOD says "HIS angels"? Who is "HIS" here? Can you control thoughts of HIM if angels meant "controlled thoughts"???

If you understand ONENESS, then you will understand that when you submit to the God, HE takes CONTROL.

(817) So you did not kill them, and but The God killed them, and you did not throw when you threw, and but The God threw, and (it is for) The God to test the believers from Him a good test, truly The God (is) hearing/listening, knowledgeable

It is only when we sin that we become divided, when we follow the righteous path we become ONE under th eControl of the God's Will.

So to answer your question, "HIS" is the God.

Can you answer my question about THEY now?

3. If we, as humans, were to BELIEVE IN AND OBEY THE ANGELS, as per GOD's commands, then how is it possible to believe in and obey a fallen angel named IBLIS, a shaytaan (devil)? Perhaps only you can.

We are to have faith in those controlled, we are to have faith that the righteous thoughts lead to righteous actions, which lead to righteous habits, etc. Now, in the SYMBOLIC story, there was a controlled thought that chose to reject, he is described as "iblis". He USED TO BE a malaika(controlled thought), but he rejected and became described as "shaytaan".

(214) ...And if they were alone with to their rejecting thoughts(shayteen) they said "That we are with you, but we are mocking ."

Please answer the above questions before you venture out to some unknown worlds.

Done. I wonder if you would be so kind as to address some questions I have, because I have already answered the questions you gave me, but I am not scared to clarify them , point by point, AGAIN and AGAIN, in order to get to the bottom of this issue.

1. Who is "THEY" in the statement "THEY prostrated except iblis"

2. Why is "except" ignored in this verse, why does it not apply as you stated?

3. What, in full deatail, are the following concepts to YOU? ( Jinn, malaika, shaytaan, iblis)

I hope you will show me the same respect and answer your questions

[unknownuser]

Peace Kyle,

All verses you quoted above (previous post) have nothing to do with HIS angels (malaika), therefore I will not address them.

I won't respond to the evasive responses you gave, I will however address your questions and not run from them.

Likewise.

Questions

1. If "malaika" are not angels, then what is the Arabic word for angels?

Who cares, why are you entering this message with PRE CONCEIVED IDEAS about some fairy tale creatures?

Likewise, who cares with your PRE-CONCEIVED IDEAS of "thought processes", "those controlled" and "controlled thoughts" coming from Mars?

Malaika are "those controlled" and YES, they belong to the God.

Now the "controlled thoughts" have suddently become "those controlled"? Make up your mind as to what "malaika" actually is and STICK TO IT?

If malaika means "controlled thoughts", then HIS malaika means "HIS Controlled Thoughts". Is there such a thing as GOD's Controlled Thoughts? How in the heavens did one of GOD's Controlled Thoughts got out-of-control by GOD Himself? By your own dangerous Martian theory, this also implies that GOD doesn't have control over HIS own controlled thoughts. Do you understand what the English word "controlled" means specially when it refers to GOD Almighty (HIS maliaka)? Pretty bizzare and horrifying situation you made up. "Malaika" doesn't mean "controlled thoughts" or "those thoughts" or "thought processes", but are refered to special creatures created by GOD, hence HIS creatures (angels) who DO NOT DISOBEY AND CARRY OUT ORDERS BY GOD ALONE and that is EXACTLY we, as humans, are commanded to do, i.e. believe in and obey them, that is, GOD's special creatures who follow nothing but HIS COMMANDS.

If you understand ONENESS, then you will understand that when you submit to the God, HE takes CONTROL.

It is only when we sin that we become divided, when we follow the righteous path we become ONE under th eControl of the God's Will.

This has nothing to do with HIS angels or HIS malaika, but humans, jinns and perhaps other creatures, simply because angels DO NOT SIN OR GET DIVIDED as you suggest.

So to answer your question, "HIS" is the God.

Absolutely, and when you add "malaika" to "HIS", it becomes HIS malaika (angels).

3. If we, as humans, were to BELIEVE IN AND OBEY THE ANGELS, as per GOD's commands, then how is it possible to believe in and obey a fallen angel named IBLIS, a shaytaan (devil)? Perhaps only you can.

We are to have faith in those controlled, we are to have faith that the righteous thoughts lead to righteous actions, which lead to righteous habits, etc. Now, in the SYMBOLIC story, there was a controlled thought that chose to reject, he is described as "iblis". He USED TO BE a malaika(controlled thought), but he rejected and became described as "shaytaan".

The BIG question is, how can GOD's Controlled Thought (HIS malaika), that is, if you are certain that GOD "thinks", can get derailed.

I wonder if you would be so kind as to address some questions I have, because I have already answered the questions you gave me, but I am not scared to clarify them , point by point, AGAIN and AGAIN, in order to get to the bottom of this issue.

Agreed, but to certain limit, not repetitious. Alhamdu-Lillah.

Can you answer my question about THEY now?

1. Who is "THEY" in the statement "THEY prostrated except iblis"

The "THEY" are refered to all of GOD's spirits, as far as I can understand, although I could be wrong. The command in general was ordered to all including the angels. Thus all of them (they, the spirits) submitted to GOD's command except Iblis, he was of jinn. Let me ask you this, if Iblis was the only one to disobey GOD's command and thrown down on earth, then what are we, as humans and other creatures doing here on earth? Likewise, I set forth an example of the "jungle scenario" earlier.

2. Why is "except" ignored in this verse, why does it not apply as you stated?

Already explained earlier.

3. What, in full deatail, are the following concepts to YOU? ( Jinn, malaika, shaytaan, iblis)

I believe the jinns and malaika are creatures, Iblis is a name and shaytaan is a term.

I hope you will show me the same respect and answer your questions

Good deal. I hope I'm done answering your questions.

Now here's something to ponder upon. What does these following Arabic words mean?

Noun , , , , , , , ,

Verb , , , , , , , ,

, ,

GOD bless.

[unknownuser]

PEACE DANISH

If malaika means "controlled thoughts", then HIS malaika means "HIS Controlled Thoughts". Is there such a thing as GOD's Controlled Thoughts? How in the heavens did one of GOD's Controlled Thoughts got out-of-control by GOD Himself? By your own dangerous Martian theory, this also implies that GOD doesn't have control over HIS own controlled thoughts. Do you understand what the English word "controlled" means specially when it refers to GOD Almighty (HIS maliaka)? Pretty bizzare and horrifying situation you made up.

The BIG question is, how can GOD's Controlled Thought (HIS malaika), that is, if you are certain that GOD "thinks", can get derailed.

LOLx10! My god, I've haven't laughed so hard for so long in quite awhile as I did tonight reading your replys to Idol. Man, not only are your comments decisive/poignant, but you are absolutely hilarious.

[unknownuser]

PEACE KYLE

Did you bother to really reflect on these ayats or did you just blow past them? In light of these ayats, how can you possibly take the position you do? Listen, I know you don't want to admit that you're wrong, but to assign rebellion to Allah's malaika, is haram.

Haram? "shiver" I am really scared now. As can be shown ALL OVER this forum, I have no problem admitting when I am wrong because I am not here to prove I am right, I am here to understand correctly. I have admitted to being wrong on several occasions and have no shame in admitting that. You however have a big problem with that.

No, Idol, you do have a problem admitting that you are wrong.

Once again, I will ask you to look at these ayats

2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.

4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

Now...

1. Does Allah say/do doubtful things?

2. Did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?

3. Is the Last Day, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?

4. Is Al-Quran, The Book, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?

Now, all of the above mentioned things are beyond reproach and we are told to believe in them, yet, you want to make the assertion that, the one doubtful thing i.e., the maliaka/angels, among that which cannot be doubted items 1-4, are doubtful/can be doubted? What the heck are you advocating, man? Now, how could Allah, tell us to believe in the angels, which, btw, He incorporates in the same ayat with Himself, His Quran, and His Messengers, if even one of them could disobey?!?!? What you are advocating is absolutley haram.

Let me stop you here, do you believe in iblis? Do you believe in rejectors and hypocrites? The God is not telling us to believe in anything, He is telling us to have faith in them, big difference. Did you here when I said that once a malaika disobeys, they become shayteen? Iblis is the mindset of one who obeys shayteen

Well, fine, all the better. Doesn't faith mean to have...complete/total trust in something? Didn't Allah, say to have complete/total trust in Him, His Angels, His Quran, and His Messenger? Tell me, how can anyone, therefore, have total trust in Allah's Angels/Malaika, if one of them rebelled? What is there to convince the believer that, another angel/malaika could not do, as Iblis did, rebel/become a shaitanl? You really need to re-think your position, Idol, because as I said to you earlier...you are slandering Allah's, not yours or mine, but Allah's malaika, and, making a liar out of Him.

Did you here when I said that once a malaika disobeys, they become shayteen? Iblis is the mindset of one who obeys shayteen.

Did you read and comprehend what Allah said in the above two ayats? He said, believe/have faith in/complete trust in...Him, HIS MALAIKA, His Quran, and His Messengers. Now, given that, Allah cannot tell a lie, the malaika, then, cannot violate their trust...ever, hence, it was impossible for Iblis to have been in the group identified as malaika, because Allah, before hand, would have known that he would rebel, hence, to tell mankind to believe in/have total trust/faith in the malaika, of which, by our own admission, Iblis was one of, would have been absolutely duplicitous/misleading on the part of Allah. Now, I ask you...how is that possible??

It is time to concede your position, Idol. There is nothing left to argue after this. Danish's last couple of posts, really, effectively, ended this debate. Re-read what he wrote to you.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Danish,

All verses you quoted above (previous post) have nothing to do with HIS angels (malaika), therefore I will not address them.

Danish, show me one thing that DOES NOT belong to the God. Even "iblis" belongs to the God. For example, a teacher makes a grading system of A,B,C,D,E,F. While the teacher hopes no one gets an F, it is still part of the teachers system.

Quote
Questions

1. If "malaika" are not angels, then what is the Arabic word for angels?

Who cares, why are you entering this message with PRE CONCEIVED IDEAS about some fairy tale creatures?

Likewise, who cares with your PRE-CONCEIVED IDEAS of "thought processes", "those controlled" and "controlled thoughts" coming from Mars?

No, not pre concieved, reasoned with the understanding that this whole message is one designed to purify your MIND(nafs), one would expect the inner workings of the MIND to be addressed. It fits perfectly.

Quote
Malaika are "those controlled" and YES, they belong to the God.

Now the "controlled thoughts" have suddently become "those controlled"? Make up your mind as to what "malaika" actually is and STICK TO IT?

You are streching far trying to bring about some contradiction in my position. The thoughts are that which need to be controlled.

If malaika means "controlled thoughts", then HIS malaika means "HIS Controlled Thoughts". Is there such a thing as GOD's Controlled Thoughts? How in the heavens did one of GOD's Controlled Thoughts got out-of-control by GOD Himself? By your own dangerous Martian theory, this also implies that GOD doesn't have control over HIS own controlled thoughts. Do you understand what the English word "controlled" means specially when it refers to GOD Almighty (HIS maliaka)? Pretty bizzare and horrifying situation you made up.

We are here purifying our minds(nafs)(917-10). We are a product of the God's Mind. We are made according to the God's pattern. When you follow thw God's path, the God's controlled thoughts enter your mind, when you follow the wrong path, YOUR rejecting thoughts take over. That is why Good is from the God, bad is from your self.

"Malaika" doesn't mean "controlled thoughts" or "those thoughts" or "thought processes", but are refered to special creatures created by GOD, hence HIS creatures (angels) who DO NOT DISOBEY AND CARRY OUT ORDERS BY GOD ALONE and that is EXACTLY we, as humans, are commanded to do, i.e. believe in and obey them, that is, GOD's special creatures who follow nothing but HIS COMMANDS.

WHat kind of "creature" is it? Especially describe the "shayteen" whom the rejectors are "alone" with.

Quote
If you understand ONENESS, then you will understand that when you submit to the God, HE takes CONTROL.

It is only when we sin that we become divided, when we follow the righteous path we become ONE under th eControl of the God's Will.

This has nothing to do with HIS angels or HIS malaika, but humans, jinns and perhaps other creatures, simply because angels DO NOT SIN OR GET DIVIDED as you suggest.

Bring proof.

Quote
So to answer your question, "HIS" is the God.

Absolutely, and when you add "malaika" to "HIS", it becomes HIS malaika (angels).

Is there anything that does not belong to the God?

Quote
3. If we, as humans, were to BELIEVE IN AND OBEY THE ANGELS, as per GOD's commands, then how is it possible to believe in and obey a fallen angel named IBLIS, a shaytaan (devil)? Perhaps only you can.

We are to have faith in those controlled, we are to have faith that the righteous thoughts lead to righteous actions, which lead to righteous habits, etc. Now, in the SYMBOLIC story, there was a controlled thought that chose to reject, he is described as "iblis". He USED TO BE a malaika(controlled thought), but he rejected and became described as "shaytaan".

The BIG question is, how can GOD's Controlled Thought (HIS malaika), that is, if you are certain that GOD "thinks", can get derailed.

They don't, it is the human thought that takes over the will and blindly drives all over the road, we have to give CONTROL back over to the God.
Its like when you first start something, like riding a bike or playing piano, you have to use your will to concentrate on the task, each little aspect, but themore you do it, the easier it becomes because you are gradually controlling your thoughts on this particular task. Sonn, you are able to day dream while riding a bike, or you can pllay a song on the piano without even looking at the keys. It is because the God's will has taken over. This is SYMBOLIZED by the heart, which is the organ that the God continues to CONTROL and keeps us alive. Please ponder the connections. The God has instructed us not to sever what the God has meant to be joined.

Quote
I wonder if you would be so kind as to address some questions I have, because I have already answered the questions you gave me, but I am not scared to clarify them , point by point, AGAIN and AGAIN, in order to get to the bottom of this issue.

Agreed, but to certain limit, not repetitious. Alhamdu-Lillah.

I hope at least equal to the limit I have addressed yours.

Quote
Can you answer my question about THEY now?

1. Who is "THEY" in the statement "THEY prostrated except iblis"

The "THEY" are refered to all of GOD's spirits, as far as I can understand, although I could be wrong.

WHAT?? you are guessing and saying you could be wrong? I'm sorry, I thought you had a clear understanding that you were debating with. I will let you finish putting your understanding together before I debate you, because this only shows you just want to try to prove me wrong. If you have not at least put a plausible theory together, how can you KNOW if you are right or wrong?

The command in general was ordered to all including the angels.

The verse say that the malaika were ordered, there is no mention of any "all" or "spirits", only "malaika".

Thus all of them (they, the spirits) submitted to GOD's command except Iblis, he was of jinn.

Sister, does that really sit comfortably with you? Be honest. There is no way possible you can make "malaika" into all whole group of assembled "spirits" (whatever that is). The verse say as clear as day that the God commanded the "malaika", is this true or false?

Let me ask you this, if Iblis was the only one to disobey GOD's command and thrown down on earth, then what are we, as humans and other creatures doing here on earth? Likewise, I set forth an example of the "jungle scenario" earlier.

We are here because "iblis" reprents something within ALL OF US. Do you think we are here paying for the sinsof a man named Adam and a Woman named Eve(this reading only says his wife)? When you realize that one does not pay for anothers sins, you will see that the story of Adam and his wife represents the fall of each and every one of us. Likewise. "iblis" is a charateristic that all of us have fallen into in the past, and some continue to listen to the whisperer.

Quote
2) Why is "except" ignored in this verse, why does it not apply as you stated?

Already explained earlier.

Thanks for showing the same respect I showed you, speaks volumes.

Quote
3) What, in full deatail, are the following concepts to YOU? ( Jinn, malaika, shaytaan, iblis)

I believe the jinns and malaika are creatures, Iblis is a name and shaytaan is a term.

What are these creatures, please tell us more about them and how they effect our lives.

In fact, save it. I have no further intrest to debate you until you get a theory that you think is solid, THEN we can test our theories against each other and one will naturally stand out and each can choose as they may. Until then, this is only a game to you. YOu don't even show at least equal respect to answer the questions I gave even when I repeated my answers for you.

Like I stated, when one is alone on stage it gets a little more difiicult.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you PB,

LOLx10! My god, I've haven't laughed so hard for so long in quite awhile as I did tonight reading your replys to Idol. Man, not only are your comments decisive/poignant, but you are absolutely hilarious.

As I continue to build my stable argumentn under the God's watchful eye, you continue to walk by laughing and joking, waiting for the flood to come overtake you.

(113And he makes the ship, and whenever a group from his nation passed on (by) him, they humiliated/mocked from him, he said "If you humiliate/mock from us, so (that) we are humiliating/mocking from you as you humiliate/mock ."

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you PB,

No, Idol, you do have a problem admitting that you are wrong.

My record does not reflect that character.

Once again, I will ask you to look at these ayats

We can look at them until those controlled take our minds at death.

2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.

4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

Now...

1. Does Allah say/do doubtful things?

Of course not.

2. Did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?

Yes. but then of course they would not be described tha that time as "messengers". For example, Moses killed a man, is that obeying the God?

3. Is the Last Day, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?

I prefer to translate it as ending time, and no, I am always aware that all CAUSES lead to an EFFECT (ending time).

4. Is Al-Quran, The Book, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?

There is no book titled "al QURAN", there is only the God's truthful words, which are from time to time written on pages.

Now, all of the above mentioned things are beyond reproach and we are told to believe in them, yet, you want to make the assertion that, the one doubtful thing i.e., the maliaka/angels, among that which cannot be doubted items 1-4, are doubtful/can be doubted?

Say what? Who is doubting those controlled? I am saying that they are thoughts, and everyone is familiar with thought, at least I hope so. How did your mind lead you to the idea that I doubted "malaika"?

What the heck are you advocating, man?

The God message, which tells us that those who purify thier minds succeed, and those who corrupt thire minds fail. (917-10) Logically, the God gives us a SYMBOLIC story to teach us about the inner processes of the mind(nafs). This is what I am advocating, brother.

Now, how could Allah, tell us to believe in the angels, which, btw, He incorporates in the same ayat with Himself, His Quran, and His Messengers, if even one of them could disobey?!?!? What you are advocating is absolutley haram.

Messengers have the capability to disobey, but when they do they can no longer be called messengers until they trun back to the God, like Jonah.

SIMILARLY, malaika when they disobey, they become shayteen

Messengers/Malaika (Adam)
Rejectors/Shayteen (Iblis)

Its not hard to understand, even if you disagree.

Well, fine, all the better. Doesn't faith mean to have...complete/total trust in something? Didn't Allah, say to have complete/total trust in Him, His Angels, His Quran, and His Messenger? Tell me, how can anyone, therefore, have total trust in Allah's Angels/Malaika, if one of them rebelled?

Faith is something that you obtain when you see something happen over and over an over again, like the sun rising. I have faith it will rise again tommorrow because it has done so every day of my life, but the God and science tell us that one day this will not be so, should I not habe faith in the rising of the sun?

Messengers are capable of disobveying , because they are humans, do you still have faith in them?

Similarly, malaika can disobey and turn into shaytaan. That is why we must be protective of the seeds we allow to grow in our minds. That is why the God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in thier minds. The Marketing/advertising companies know about this very well. That is why this industry is a billion dollar industry. That is why companies pay millions for 30 second commercials, BECAUSE THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL AT CHANGING YOUR THOUGHTS. Repition causes things to change, like water on rocks.

What is there to convince the believer that, another angel/malaika could not do, as Iblis did, rebel/become a shaitanl?

NOTHING!! Because it DOES happen, that is the reason for that story, it is an example for us to follow. You have to guard the righteous thoughts that are sent by the God from being taken over by the "iblis" within you. The God gave us this responsibility, this TRUST.

You really need to re-think your position, Idol, because as I said to you earlier...you are slandering Allah's, not yours or mine, but Allah's malaika, and, making a liar out of Him.

Stop being scared to think.

Quote
Did you here when I said that once a malaika disobeys, they become shayteen? Iblis is the mindset of one who obeys shayteen.

Did you read and comprehend what Allah said in the above two ayats? He said, believe/have faith in/complete trust in...Him, HIS MALAIKA, His Quran, and His Messengers. Now, given that, Allah cannot tell a lie, the malaika, then, cannot violate their trust...ever, hence, it was impossible for Iblis to have been in the group identified as malaika, because Allah, before hand, would have known that he would rebel, hence, to tell mankind to believe in/have total trust/faith in the malaika, of which, by our own admission, Iblis was one of, would have been absolutely duplicitous/misleading on the part of Allah. Now, I ask you...how is that possible??

See above answers which cover this.

It is time to concede your position, Idol. There is nothing left to argue after this. Danish's last couple of posts, really, effectively, ended this debate. Re-read what he wrote to you.

First, my apologies to Danish, I think I referred to him as a female which is what I assumed froma name I am unfamiliar with. No offense was intended. Next, I concede a position when I see proof that it is incorrect. My position fits and does not contradict, you have just been holdiong this position so long that it is hard to let go. I know this because I had to do the same many times, especially with "salaat".

[unknownuser]

PEACE IDOL

As I continue to build my stable argumentn under the God's watchful eye, you continue to walk by laughing and joking, waiting for the flood to come overtake you.

(113And he makes the ship, and whenever a group from his nation passed on (by) him, they humiliated/mocked from him, he said "If you humiliate/mock from us, so (that) we are humiliating/mocking from you as you humiliate/mock ."

I am not making fun of/mocking/humiliating you. Danish, simply has way of putting things in a funny way.

No, Idol, you have not built a stable arguement at all.

Quote
2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.

4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

PREIST Now... 1. Does Allah say/do doubtful things?

Of course not.

PREIST 2. Did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?

Yes. but then of course they would not be described tha that time as "messengers". For example, Moses killed a man, is that obeying the God?

You see, this is why Danish and I cannot take you seriously. First, you slander Allah's malaika and now you slander the Messengers. When will your folly finally run its course...when you slander Allah outright? The question put to you was..."did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?". You answered "yes", knowing full well that that isn't true. Moses, was not a Messenger at the time he slew that individual, now was he?, hence, he did not disobey Allah. Please rescind your "yes" answer, unless, you want to continue to slander Allah's Messengers.

Btw, what the heck does this mean? "but then of course they would not be described tha that time as "messengers".

PREIST3. Is the Last Day, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?

I prefer to translate it as ending time, and no, I am always aware that all CAUSES lead to an EFFECT (ending time).

Fine, however, it cannot be doubted.

PREIST 4. Is Al-Quran, The Book, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?

There is no book titled "al QURAN", there is only the God's truthful words, which are from time to time written on pages.

You see, how you continue to play games? You know exactly what is being asked of you here. Anyway, let me re-phrase then. The ayats from Al-Fatihah to Al-Nas, are they doubtful things, can they be doubted?

PREIST Now, all of the above mentioned things are beyond reproach and we are told to believe in them, yet, you want to make the assertion that, the one doubtful thing i.e., the maliaka/angels, among that which cannot be doubted items 1-4, are doubtful/can be doubted?

Say what? Who is doubting those controlled? I am saying that they are thoughts, and everyone is familiar with thought, at least I hope so. How did your mind lead you to the idea that I doubted "malaika"?

Fine, however, you have not answered the question. No problem.

By your own admission, one of "those controlled", by Allah, cease being that and became a Jinn/shaitan, hence, "those who are controlled", as a group, have been compromised by the rebellion of one of them, hence, the group is now a doubtful entity.

Now, all of the above mentioned items 1-4, are beyond reproach and we are told to believe/have faith in them/have complete trust in them, yet, you want to make the assertion that, the one doubtful thing i.e., the maliaka/angels/"those who are controlled", among that which cannot be doubted items 1-4, are doubtful/can be doubted?

The God message, which tells us that those who purify thier minds succeed, and those who corrupt thire minds fail. (917-10) Logically, the God gives us a SYMBOLIC story to teach us about the inner processes of the mind(nafs). This is what I am advocating, brother
.

Symbolic story, notwithstanding, is comprised of very real entities

1. real people i.e. Messengers.

2. real Messages i.e. Al-Quran.

3. real shaitans i.e. Iblis.

4. real time periods i.e. The Last Day.

5. real animals i.e dabbatin

6. real forces of Allah i.e. angels/malaika.

Real things, I believe, can be used metaphorically, however, that does not necessarily take from their objective real existence.

Messengers have the capability to disobey, but when they do they can no longer be called messengers until they trun back to the God, like Jonah.

Was Jonah, a prophet or a messenger or both? Let's leave Jonah for now and instead, pick a Messenger. Did any of the Messengers ever disobey Allah?

SIMILARLY, malaika when they disobey, they become shayteen

Messengers/Malaika (Adam)
Rejectors/Shayteen (Iblis)

Adam was a messenger? Please post that ayat, I would like to see it.

Its not hard to understand, even if you disagree.

That's exactly what the Christians say about their fantastic theories too.

PREIST Well, fine, all the better. Doesn't faith mean to have...complete/total trust in something? Didn't Allah, say to have complete/total trust in Him, His Angels, His Quran, and His Messenger? Tell me, how can anyone, therefore, have total trust in Allah's Angels/Malaika, if one of them rebelled?

Faith is something that you obtain when you see something happen over and over an over again, like the sun rising. I have faith it will rise again tommorrow because it has done so every day of my life, but the God and science tell us that one day this will not be so, should I not habe faith in the rising of the sun?

Does Allah, tell you to have faith in the sun, Idol? No, but He does tell you to have faith, that is, complete/total trust in Him, His Angels, His Book and His Messengers...nothing about having faith in anything else.

Btw, the sun doesn't rise or set anywhere, it is the earths rotation on its axis which gives impression that the sun rises and sets, however, the sun is 91 million miles removed for the earth and it is not going up and down in the sky. Do you see how perceptions can be faulty? It is the same at 234, that is, your perception is faulty and it only appears that Iblis was one of the malaika. Thanks for an excellent example on faulty perception.

Messengers are capable of disobveying , because they are humans, do you still have faith in them?

The question isn't what they were capable of, the question is...did any Messenger of Allah...disobey Him, yes or no?

Similarly, malaika can disobey and turn into shaytaan.

My God, is there no end to your pride ? Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans! My God, man, listen to yourself, dude. If the malaika can disobey and the Messengers can disobey, then, how can Allah say to HAVE COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says

4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?

For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a shaitan, to wit

720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.

721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.

Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did? What are you talking about?!

Idol, you need to stop, brother.

Stop being scared to think.

No, Idol, I am not afraid to think, however, you'd better start thinking. In your last two posts, you have

1. slandered the malaika by saying they disobey their Lord and thus become shaitans.

2. slandered the Messengers by saying that they can and have disobeyed Allah.

3. slandered Allah, by casting doubts on the things which He has told us to have complete/total trust in, thus, making Him an insincere guide/adviser.

I guess I was correct when I asked above...When will your folly finally run its course...when you slander Allah outright? Well, you've done that too...

At this point, Idol, what makes your doing any different than what Iblis, did? He too, refused to accept the truth, he was proud .

[wildguest1956]

Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans!

Salam,

I dont see what is the problem here.

The rule is
Malaika are not arrogant, and dont disobey to the commands of God

The fact is
Iblis disobeyed to the command of prostrating

So, according to the rule above, he ceased to be a malaika (he was disgraced, cf )

I see no inconsistency here.

He said Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced.

It is clear that Iblis was expected not to be arrogant, and to obey to the command of God (to prostrate before Adam).
He was expected that because before that event he was a malaika.

Hopes it helps,

Peace,
JM