WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Pointy by point,

They prostrated except iblis.

Who is THEY?

unknownuser

Peace Kyle,

Why does not the exception rule apply here? I have bolded that question because I think you might try to go around it. Please give us the criteria for when we can and cannot use the "exception rule".

Has already been meticulously explained. And ah yes, please don't go around it.

They prostrated EXCEPT iblis. Who is THEY? Has anyone answered this question yet?

WHO IS THEY?

Pointy by point,
They prostrated except iblis.
Who is THEY?

Because I understand a simple sentence containing an exception.
THEY prostrated except iblis. Who is THEY?

They prostrated EXCEPT iblis. Who is THEY? Has anyone answered this question yet?

WHO IS THEY?

Repetitious and waste of time.

And again, you fail to understand that when Iblis the malaika rejected, he discontinued being a malaika.

If Iblis discontinued being a malaika, then what did he become, a NY Yankee or a Philidelphis Eagle? lol

I think it would benefit you greatly to collect all of my posts.

I don't have the nerves nor time to collect many of you mesmerising, repetitious and gibberish talks. Only a few of your posts throughout this forum which makes good sense that I do honor.

Why don't you do this, tell me EXACTLY why EXCEPT is in this verse, what is the PURPOSE of that word in this verse?

"Tell me EXACTLY what this means and tell me EXACTLY what that means", childish notions. Everything pertaining to Jinns, angels, creatures, etc., has been explained in detail many times earlier by quite a few talented members. Start from page 1 of this thread including a few others and you'll get all the answers EXACTLY. No need to repeat over and over and over again EXACTLY. Its like teaching a child a zillion times and yet he/she cannot understand... HOPELESS.

I am starting to think you might still be in school, how old are you? I have explaned my position in detail, instead of at least acknowledging my position, even if you think it is wrong, you stoop to the childish game of continuing to say I have not made up my mind. At least be righteous enough as to not lie about my position for fear of being wrong.

Make sure you put something in his collection plate before you leave.

Your own words proves your credibility. You are not only strifen with emotional setback, persistent with egoistic nature but also driven to unknown worlds. Please, lets not get off-track bearing personal vendetta and stick to the core subject matter. Understand or do you want me to repeat this over again EXACTLY.

The problem is that you keep saying "angel" when I have said no such thing. Yes, malaika don't disobey, when they do they are no longer described as "malaika", but then become "shyateen".

You keep saying "malaika", an Arabic word, while I say "angels", an English word. What is your problem? Don't you undertand certain English words or are you trying to twist and confuse others?

You admit that angels (malaika) don't disobey (in bold above) and then you say "when they do". What nonsense? Where do you come up with such bizzare theories? Point to one verse in the Quran that mentions explicitly that malaika (angels) disobeys and I, PB and others have already shown you several that they don't, yet you insist. What a joke and mockery of the Quran that you make? Talk sense at least.

See above, read and understand your own previous posts and others as well throughout this forum, you'll find your invented hip-hop dances, which btw, you yourself can't seem to understand. Sorry brother, but that's what it is.

Just like I thought, no proof.

Your lack of contemplation and hip-hopping speaks for itself. You will find all the proofs repeated again and again throughout this thread, hence my statement quoted above. Gosh, I am getting tired of repeating this to you myself. No need to ask for proofs repeatedly when they are already given.

You are welcome to your own opinion, if that is where your reasoning takes you.

My reasoning is bought about by Quranic contexts and natural facts, not opinions and definitely not from unknown worlds like you bring about.

All of PB/dhuls evidence has been shown incorrect and there are several unanswered contradictions. Just because he ignores the questions or anwers them incorrectly for 20 pages does not equal that a "meticulous job" has been done.

As a matter of fact, its the other way around. Your lack of understanding, incorrect and inconsistent bizzare dramatic theories and unanswered questions have truely led to 20 pages and building up. You insist and hesitate to reason with.

I don't know what "angels" are. I am discussing "those controlled" (malaika), from the root M-L-K which deals with control. I don't recall being told to obey "malaika", I am told to have faith in them, and yes, I do have faith in my controlled thoughts that come from the God. I also know that if I give the CONTROL over to my emotions/passions, I am on the wrong path.

Emphasis is on "HIS ANGELS", not "YOUR CONTROLLED THOUGHTS".

Its no wonder you both cannot grasp this concept when you cannot even give up saying "angels", what is an "angel"? The word "malaika" in NO WAY can be translated as "angel". Why don't you do yourself a favor and study the root word "M-L-K" and see how its derivatives are used.

I don't know what "angels" are. I am discussing "those controlled" (malaika), from the root M-L-K which deals with control. I don't recall being told to obey "malaika", I am told to have faith in them, and yes, I do have faith in my controlled thoughts that come from the God. I also know that if I give the CONTROL over to my emotions/passions, I am on the wrong path.

Questions

If "malaika" are not angels, then what is the Arabic word for angels?
In the entire Quran, GOD says "HIS angels"? Who is "HIS" here? Can you control thoughts of HIM if angels meant "controlled thoughts"???
If we, as humans, were to BELIEVE IN AND OBEY THE ANGELS, as per GOD's commands, then how is it possible to believe in and obey a fallen angel named IBLIS, a shaytaan (devil)? Perhaps only you can.

Please answer the above questions before you venture out to some unknown worlds.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Danish,

I won't respond to the evasive responses you gave, I will however address your questions and not run from them.

Questions

If "malaika" are not angels, then what is the Arabic word for angels?

Who cares, why are you entering this message with PRE CONCEIVED IDEAS about some fairy tale creatures?

Malaika are "those controlled" and YES, they belong to the God.

In the entire Quran, GOD says "HIS angels"? Who is "HIS" here? Can you control thoughts of HIM if angels meant "controlled thoughts"???

If you understand ONENESS, then you will understand that when you submit to the God, HE takes CONTROL.

(817) So you did not kill them, and but The God killed them, and you did not throw when you threw, and but The God threw, and (it is for) The God to test the believers from Him a good test, truly The God (is) hearing/listening, knowledgeable

It is only when we sin that we become divided, when we follow the righteous path we become ONE under th eControl of the God's Will.

So to answer your question, "HIS" is the God.

Can you answer my question about THEY now?

If we, as humans, were to BELIEVE IN AND OBEY THE ANGELS, as per GOD's commands, then how is it possible to believe in and obey a fallen angel named IBLIS, a shaytaan (devil)? Perhaps only you can.

We are to have faith in those controlled, we are to have faith that the righteous thoughts lead to righteous actions, which lead to righteous habits, etc. Now, in the SYMBOLIC story, there was a controlled thought that chose to reject, he is described as "iblis". He USED TO BE a malaika(controlled thought), but he rejected and became described as "shaytaan".

(214) ...And if they were alone with to their rejecting thoughts(shayteen) they said "That we are with you, but we are mocking ."

Please answer the above questions before you venture out to some unknown worlds.

Done. I wonder if you would be so kind as to address some questions I have, because I have already answered the questions you gave me, but I am not scared to clarify them , point by point, AGAIN and AGAIN, in order to get to the bottom of this issue.

Who is "THEY" in the statement "THEY prostrated except iblis"
Why is "except" ignored in this verse, why does it not apply as you stated?
What, in full deatail, are the following concepts to YOU? ( Jinn, malaika, shaytaan, iblis)

I hope you will show me the same respect and answer your questions

unknownuser

Peace Kyle,

All verses you quoted above (previous post) have nothing to do with HIS angels (malaika), therefore I will not address them.

I won't respond to the evasive responses you gave, I will however address your questions and not run from them.

Likewise.

Questions

If "malaika" are not angels, then what is the Arabic word for angels?

Who cares, why are you entering this message with PRE CONCEIVED IDEAS about some fairy tale creatures?

Likewise, who cares with your PRE-CONCEIVED IDEAS of "thought processes", "those controlled" and "controlled thoughts" coming from Mars?

Malaika are "those controlled" and YES, they belong to the God.

Now the "controlled thoughts" have suddently become "those controlled"? Make up your mind as to what "malaika" actually is and STICK TO IT?

If malaika means "controlled thoughts", then HIS malaika means "HIS Controlled Thoughts". Is there such a thing as GOD's Controlled Thoughts? How in the heavens did one of GOD's Controlled Thoughts got out-of-control by GOD Himself? By your own dangerous Martian theory, this also implies that GOD doesn't have control over HIS own controlled thoughts. Do you understand what the English word "controlled" means specially when it refers to GOD Almighty (HIS maliaka)? Pretty bizzare and horrifying situation you made up. "Malaika" doesn't mean "controlled thoughts" or "those thoughts" or "thought processes", but are refered to special creatures created by GOD, hence HIS creatures (angels) who DO NOT DISOBEY AND CARRY OUT ORDERS BY GOD ALONE and that is EXACTLY we, as humans, are commanded to do, i.e. believe in and obey them, that is, GOD's special creatures who follow nothing but HIS COMMANDS.

If you understand ONENESS, then you will understand that when you submit to the God, HE takes CONTROL.

It is only when we sin that we become divided, when we follow the righteous path we become ONE under th eControl of the God's Will.

This has nothing to do with HIS angels or HIS malaika, but humans, jinns and perhaps other creatures, simply because angels DO NOT SIN OR GET DIVIDED as you suggest.

So to answer your question, "HIS" is the God.

Absolutely, and when you add "malaika" to "HIS", it becomes HIS malaika (angels).

If we, as humans, were to BELIEVE IN AND OBEY THE ANGELS, as per GOD's commands, then how is it possible to believe in and obey a fallen angel named IBLIS, a shaytaan (devil)? Perhaps only you can.

We are to have faith in those controlled, we are to have faith that the righteous thoughts lead to righteous actions, which lead to righteous habits, etc. Now, in the SYMBOLIC story, there was a controlled thought that chose to reject, he is described as "iblis". He USED TO BE a malaika(controlled thought), but he rejected and became described as "shaytaan".

The BIG question is, how can GOD's Controlled Thought (HIS malaika), that is, if you are certain that GOD "thinks", can get derailed.

I wonder if you would be so kind as to address some questions I have, because I have already answered the questions you gave me, but I am not scared to clarify them , point by point, AGAIN and AGAIN, in order to get to the bottom of this issue.

Agreed, but to certain limit, not repetitious. Alhamdu-Lillah.

Can you answer my question about THEY now?

Who is "THEY" in the statement "THEY prostrated except iblis"

The "THEY" are refered to all of GOD's spirits, as far as I can understand, although I could be wrong. The command in general was ordered to all including the angels. Thus all of them (they, the spirits) submitted to GOD's command except Iblis, he was of jinn. Let me ask you this, if Iblis was the only one to disobey GOD's command and thrown down on earth, then what are we, as humans and other creatures doing here on earth? Likewise, I set forth an example of the "jungle scenario" earlier.

Why is "except" ignored in this verse, why does it not apply as you stated?

Already explained earlier.

What, in full deatail, are the following concepts to YOU? ( Jinn, malaika, shaytaan, iblis)

I believe the jinns and malaika are creatures, Iblis is a name and shaytaan is a term.

I hope you will show me the same respect and answer your questions

Good deal. I hope I'm done answering your questions.

Now here's something to ponder upon. What does these following Arabic words mean?

Noun , , , , , , , ,

Verb , , , , , , , ,

, ,

GOD bless.

unknownuser

PEACE DANISH

If malaika means "controlled thoughts", then HIS malaika means "HIS Controlled Thoughts". Is there such a thing as GOD's Controlled Thoughts? How in the heavens did one of GOD's Controlled Thoughts got out-of-control by GOD Himself? By your own dangerous Martian theory, this also implies that GOD doesn't have control over HIS own controlled thoughts. Do you understand what the English word "controlled" means specially when it refers to GOD Almighty (HIS maliaka)? Pretty bizzare and horrifying situation you made up.

The BIG question is, how can GOD's Controlled Thought (HIS malaika), that is, if you are certain that GOD "thinks", can get derailed.

LOLx10! My god, I've haven't laughed so hard for so long in quite awhile as I did tonight reading your replys to Idol. Man, not only are your comments decisive/poignant, but you are absolutely hilarious.

unknownuser

PEACE KYLE

Did you bother to really reflect on these ayats or did you just blow past them? In light of these ayats, how can you possibly take the position you do? Listen, I know you don't want to admit that you're wrong, but to assign rebellion to Allah's malaika, is haram.

Haram? "shiver" I am really scared now. As can be shown ALL OVER this forum, I have no problem admitting when I am wrong because I am not here to prove I am right, I am here to understand correctly. I have admitted to being wrong on several occasions and have no shame in admitting that. You however have a big problem with that.

No, Idol, you do have a problem admitting that you are wrong.

Once again, I will ask you to look at these ayats

2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.

4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

Now...

Does Allah say/do doubtful things?
Did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?
Is the Last Day, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?
Is Al-Quran, The Book, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?

Now, all of the above mentioned things are beyond reproach and we are told to believe in them, yet, you want to make the assertion that, the one doubtful thing i.e., the maliaka/angels, among that which cannot be doubted items 1-4, are doubtful/can be doubted? What the heck are you advocating, man? Now, how could Allah, tell us to believe in the angels, which, btw, He incorporates in the same ayat with Himself, His Quran, and His Messengers, if even one of them could disobey?!?!? What you are advocating is absolutley haram.

Let me stop you here, do you believe in iblis? Do you believe in rejectors and hypocrites? The God is not telling us to believe in anything, He is telling us to have faith in them, big difference. Did you here when I said that once a malaika disobeys, they become shayteen? Iblis is the mindset of one who obeys shayteen

Well, fine, all the better. Doesn't faith mean to have...complete/total trust in something? Didn't Allah, say to have complete/total trust in Him, His Angels, His Quran, and His Messenger? Tell me, how can anyone, therefore, have total trust in Allah's Angels/Malaika, if one of them rebelled? What is there to convince the believer that, another angel/malaika could not do, as Iblis did, rebel/become a shaitanl? You really need to re-think your position, Idol, because as I said to you earlier...you are slandering Allah's, not yours or mine, but Allah's malaika, and, making a liar out of Him.

Did you here when I said that once a malaika disobeys, they become shayteen? Iblis is the mindset of one who obeys shayteen.

Did you read and comprehend what Allah said in the above two ayats? He said, believe/have faith in/complete trust in...Him, HIS MALAIKA, His Quran, and His Messengers. Now, given that, Allah cannot tell a lie, the malaika, then, cannot violate their trust...ever, hence, it was impossible for Iblis to have been in the group identified as malaika, because Allah, before hand, would have known that he would rebel, hence, to tell mankind to believe in/have total trust/faith in the malaika, of which, by our own admission, Iblis was one of, would have been absolutely duplicitous/misleading on the part of Allah. Now, I ask you...how is that possible??

It is time to concede your position, Idol. There is nothing left to argue after this. Danish's last couple of posts, really, effectively, ended this debate. Re-read what he wrote to you.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Danish,

All verses you quoted above (previous post) have nothing to do with HIS angels (malaika), therefore I will not address them.

Danish, show me one thing that DOES NOT belong to the God. Even "iblis" belongs to the God. For example, a teacher makes a grading system of A,B,C,D,E,F. While the teacher hopes no one gets an F, it is still part of the teachers system.

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Questions

If "malaika" are not angels, then what is the Arabic word for angels?

Who cares, why are you entering this message with PRE CONCEIVED IDEAS about some fairy tale creatures?

Likewise, who cares with your PRE-CONCEIVED IDEAS of "thought processes", "those controlled" and "controlled thoughts" coming from Mars?

No, not pre concieved, reasoned with the understanding that this whole message is one designed to purify your MIND(nafs), one would expect the inner workings of the MIND to be addressed. It fits perfectly.

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Malaika are "those controlled" and YES, they belong to the God.

Now the "controlled thoughts" have suddently become "those controlled"? Make up your mind as to what "malaika" actually is and STICK TO IT?

You are streching far trying to bring about some contradiction in my position. The thoughts are that which need to be controlled.

If malaika means "controlled thoughts", then HIS malaika means "HIS Controlled Thoughts". Is there such a thing as GOD's Controlled Thoughts? How in the heavens did one of GOD's Controlled Thoughts got out-of-control by GOD Himself? By your own dangerous Martian theory, this also implies that GOD doesn't have control over HIS own controlled thoughts. Do you understand what the English word "controlled" means specially when it refers to GOD Almighty (HIS maliaka)? Pretty bizzare and horrifying situation you made up.

We are here purifying our minds(nafs)(917-10). We are a product of the God's Mind. We are made according to the God's pattern. When you follow thw God's path, the God's controlled thoughts enter your mind, when you follow the wrong path, YOUR rejecting thoughts take over. That is why Good is from the God, bad is from your self.

"Malaika" doesn't mean "controlled thoughts" or "those thoughts" or "thought processes", but are refered to special creatures created by GOD, hence HIS creatures (angels) who DO NOT DISOBEY AND CARRY OUT ORDERS BY GOD ALONE and that is EXACTLY we, as humans, are commanded to do, i.e. believe in and obey them, that is, GOD's special creatures who follow nothing but HIS COMMANDS.

WHat kind of "creature" is it? Especially describe the "shayteen" whom the rejectors are "alone" with.

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If you understand ONENESS, then you will understand that when you submit to the God, HE takes CONTROL.

It is only when we sin that we become divided, when we follow the righteous path we become ONE under th eControl of the God's Will.

This has nothing to do with HIS angels or HIS malaika, but humans, jinns and perhaps other creatures, simply because angels DO NOT SIN OR GET DIVIDED as you suggest.

Bring proof.

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So to answer your question, "HIS" is the God.

Absolutely, and when you add "malaika" to "HIS", it becomes HIS malaika (angels).

Is there anything that does not belong to the God?

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3. If we, as humans, were to BELIEVE IN AND OBEY THE ANGELS, as per GOD's commands, then how is it possible to believe in and obey a fallen angel named IBLIS, a shaytaan (devil)? Perhaps only you can.

We are to have faith in those controlled, we are to have faith that the righteous thoughts lead to righteous actions, which lead to righteous habits, etc. Now, in the SYMBOLIC story, there was a controlled thought that chose to reject, he is described as "iblis". He USED TO BE a malaika(controlled thought), but he rejected and became described as "shaytaan".

The BIG question is, how can GOD's Controlled Thought (HIS malaika), that is, if you are certain that GOD "thinks", can get derailed.

They don't, it is the human thought that takes over the will and blindly drives all over the road, we have to give CONTROL back over to the God.
Its like when you first start something, like riding a bike or playing piano, you have to use your will to concentrate on the task, each little aspect, but themore you do it, the easier it becomes because you are gradually controlling your thoughts on this particular task. Sonn, you are able to day dream while riding a bike, or you can pllay a song on the piano without even looking at the keys. It is because the God's will has taken over. This is SYMBOLIZED by the heart, which is the organ that the God continues to CONTROL and keeps us alive. Please ponder the connections. The God has instructed us not to sever what the God has meant to be joined.

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I wonder if you would be so kind as to address some questions I have, because I have already answered the questions you gave me, but I am not scared to clarify them , point by point, AGAIN and AGAIN, in order to get to the bottom of this issue.

Agreed, but to certain limit, not repetitious. Alhamdu-Lillah.

I hope at least equal to the limit I have addressed yours.

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Can you answer my question about THEY now?

Who is "THEY" in the statement "THEY prostrated except iblis"

The "THEY" are refered to all of GOD's spirits, as far as I can understand, although I could be wrong.

WHAT?? you are guessing and saying you could be wrong? I'm sorry, I thought you had a clear understanding that you were debating with. I will let you finish putting your understanding together before I debate you, because this only shows you just want to try to prove me wrong. If you have not at least put a plausible theory together, how can you KNOW if you are right or wrong?

The command in general was ordered to all including the angels.

The verse say that the malaika were ordered, there is no mention of any "all" or "spirits", only "malaika".

Thus all of them (they, the spirits) submitted to GOD's command except Iblis, he was of jinn.

Sister, does that really sit comfortably with you? Be honest. There is no way possible you can make "malaika" into all whole group of assembled "spirits" (whatever that is). The verse say as clear as day that the God commanded the "malaika", is this true or false?

Let me ask you this, if Iblis was the only one to disobey GOD's command and thrown down on earth, then what are we, as humans and other creatures doing here on earth? Likewise, I set forth an example of the "jungle scenario" earlier.

We are here because "iblis" reprents something within ALL OF US. Do you think we are here paying for the sinsof a man named Adam and a Woman named Eve(this reading only says his wife)? When you realize that one does not pay for anothers sins, you will see that the story of Adam and his wife represents the fall of each and every one of us. Likewise. "iblis" is a charateristic that all of us have fallen into in the past, and some continue to listen to the whisperer.

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2) Why is "except" ignored in this verse, why does it not apply as you stated?

Already explained earlier.

Thanks for showing the same respect I showed you, speaks volumes.

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3) What, in full deatail, are the following concepts to YOU? ( Jinn, malaika, shaytaan, iblis)

I believe the jinns and malaika are creatures, Iblis is a name and shaytaan is a term.

What are these creatures, please tell us more about them and how they effect our lives.

In fact, save it. I have no further intrest to debate you until you get a theory that you think is solid, THEN we can test our theories against each other and one will naturally stand out and each can choose as they may. Until then, this is only a game to you. YOu don't even show at least equal respect to answer the questions I gave even when I repeated my answers for you.

Like I stated, when one is alone on stage it gets a little more difiicult.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

LOLx10! My god, I've haven't laughed so hard for so long in quite awhile as I did tonight reading your replys to Idol. Man, not only are your comments decisive/poignant, but you are absolutely hilarious.

As I continue to build my stable argumentn under the God's watchful eye, you continue to walk by laughing and joking, waiting for the flood to come overtake you.

(113And he makes the ship, and whenever a group from his nation passed on (by) him, they humiliated/mocked from him, he said "If you humiliate/mock from us, so (that) we are humiliating/mocking from you as you humiliate/mock ."

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

No, Idol, you do have a problem admitting that you are wrong.

My record does not reflect that character.

Once again, I will ask you to look at these ayats

We can look at them until those controlled take our minds at death.

2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.

4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

Now...

Does Allah say/do doubtful things?

Of course not.

Did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?

Yes. but then of course they would not be described tha that time as "messengers". For example, Moses killed a man, is that obeying the God?

Is the Last Day, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?

I prefer to translate it as ending time, and no, I am always aware that all CAUSES lead to an EFFECT (ending time).

Is Al-Quran, The Book, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?

There is no book titled "al QURAN", there is only the God's truthful words, which are from time to time written on pages.

Now, all of the above mentioned things are beyond reproach and we are told to believe in them, yet, you want to make the assertion that, the one doubtful thing i.e., the maliaka/angels, among that which cannot be doubted items 1-4, are doubtful/can be doubted?

Say what? Who is doubting those controlled? I am saying that they are thoughts, and everyone is familiar with thought, at least I hope so. How did your mind lead you to the idea that I doubted "malaika"?

What the heck are you advocating, man?

The God message, which tells us that those who purify thier minds succeed, and those who corrupt thire minds fail. (917-10) Logically, the God gives us a SYMBOLIC story to teach us about the inner processes of the mind(nafs). This is what I am advocating, brother.

Now, how could Allah, tell us to believe in the angels, which, btw, He incorporates in the same ayat with Himself, His Quran, and His Messengers, if even one of them could disobey?!?!? What you are advocating is absolutley haram.

Messengers have the capability to disobey, but when they do they can no longer be called messengers until they trun back to the God, like Jonah.

SIMILARLY, malaika when they disobey, they become shayteen

Messengers/Malaika (Adam)
Rejectors/Shayteen (Iblis)

Its not hard to understand, even if you disagree.

Well, fine, all the better. Doesn't faith mean to have...complete/total trust in something? Didn't Allah, say to have complete/total trust in Him, His Angels, His Quran, and His Messenger? Tell me, how can anyone, therefore, have total trust in Allah's Angels/Malaika, if one of them rebelled?

Faith is something that you obtain when you see something happen over and over an over again, like the sun rising. I have faith it will rise again tommorrow because it has done so every day of my life, but the God and science tell us that one day this will not be so, should I not habe faith in the rising of the sun?

Messengers are capable of disobveying , because they are humans, do you still have faith in them?

Similarly, malaika can disobey and turn into shaytaan. That is why we must be protective of the seeds we allow to grow in our minds. That is why the God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in thier minds. The Marketing/advertising companies know about this very well. That is why this industry is a billion dollar industry. That is why companies pay millions for 30 second commercials, BECAUSE THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL AT CHANGING YOUR THOUGHTS. Repition causes things to change, like water on rocks.

What is there to convince the believer that, another angel/malaika could not do, as Iblis did, rebel/become a shaitanl?

NOTHING!! Because it DOES happen, that is the reason for that story, it is an example for us to follow. You have to guard the righteous thoughts that are sent by the God from being taken over by the "iblis" within you. The God gave us this responsibility, this TRUST.

You really need to re-think your position, Idol, because as I said to you earlier...you are slandering Allah's, not yours or mine, but Allah's malaika, and, making a liar out of Him.

Stop being scared to think.

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Did you here when I said that once a malaika disobeys, they become shayteen? Iblis is the mindset of one who obeys shayteen.

Did you read and comprehend what Allah said in the above two ayats? He said, believe/have faith in/complete trust in...Him, HIS MALAIKA, His Quran, and His Messengers. Now, given that, Allah cannot tell a lie, the malaika, then, cannot violate their trust...ever, hence, it was impossible for Iblis to have been in the group identified as malaika, because Allah, before hand, would have known that he would rebel, hence, to tell mankind to believe in/have total trust/faith in the malaika, of which, by our own admission, Iblis was one of, would have been absolutely duplicitous/misleading on the part of Allah. Now, I ask you...how is that possible??

See above answers which cover this.

It is time to concede your position, Idol. There is nothing left to argue after this. Danish's last couple of posts, really, effectively, ended this debate. Re-read what he wrote to you.

First, my apologies to Danish, I think I referred to him as a female which is what I assumed froma name I am unfamiliar with. No offense was intended. Next, I concede a position when I see proof that it is incorrect. My position fits and does not contradict, you have just been holdiong this position so long that it is hard to let go. I know this because I had to do the same many times, especially with "salaat".

unknownuser

PEACE IDOL

As I continue to build my stable argumentn under the God's watchful eye, you continue to walk by laughing and joking, waiting for the flood to come overtake you.

(113And he makes the ship, and whenever a group from his nation passed on (by) him, they humiliated/mocked from him, he said "If you humiliate/mock from us, so (that) we are humiliating/mocking from you as you humiliate/mock ."

I am not making fun of/mocking/humiliating you. Danish, simply has way of putting things in a funny way.

No, Idol, you have not built a stable arguement at all.

Quote
2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.

4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

PREIST Now... 1. Does Allah say/do doubtful things?

Of course not.

PREIST 2. Did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?

Yes. but then of course they would not be described tha that time as "messengers". For example, Moses killed a man, is that obeying the God?

You see, this is why Danish and I cannot take you seriously. First, you slander Allah's malaika and now you slander the Messengers. When will your folly finally run its course...when you slander Allah outright? The question put to you was..."did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?". You answered "yes", knowing full well that that isn't true. Moses, was not a Messenger at the time he slew that individual, now was he?, hence, he did not disobey Allah. Please rescind your "yes" answer, unless, you want to continue to slander Allah's Messengers.

Btw, what the heck does this mean? "but then of course they would not be described tha that time as "messengers".

PREIST3. Is the Last Day, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?

I prefer to translate it as ending time, and no, I am always aware that all CAUSES lead to an EFFECT (ending time).

Fine, however, it cannot be doubted.

PREIST 4. Is Al-Quran, The Book, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?

There is no book titled "al QURAN", there is only the God's truthful words, which are from time to time written on pages.

You see, how you continue to play games? You know exactly what is being asked of you here. Anyway, let me re-phrase then. The ayats from Al-Fatihah to Al-Nas, are they doubtful things, can they be doubted?

PREIST Now, all of the above mentioned things are beyond reproach and we are told to believe in them, yet, you want to make the assertion that, the one doubtful thing i.e., the maliaka/angels, among that which cannot be doubted items 1-4, are doubtful/can be doubted?

Say what? Who is doubting those controlled? I am saying that they are thoughts, and everyone is familiar with thought, at least I hope so. How did your mind lead you to the idea that I doubted "malaika"?

Fine, however, you have not answered the question. No problem.

By your own admission, one of "those controlled", by Allah, cease being that and became a Jinn/shaitan, hence, "those who are controlled", as a group, have been compromised by the rebellion of one of them, hence, the group is now a doubtful entity.

Now, all of the above mentioned items 1-4, are beyond reproach and we are told to believe/have faith in them/have complete trust in them, yet, you want to make the assertion that, the one doubtful thing i.e., the maliaka/angels/"those who are controlled", among that which cannot be doubted items 1-4, are doubtful/can be doubted?

The God message, which tells us that those who purify thier minds succeed, and those who corrupt thire minds fail. (917-10) Logically, the God gives us a SYMBOLIC story to teach us about the inner processes of the mind(nafs). This is what I am advocating, brother
.

Symbolic story, notwithstanding, is comprised of very real entities

real people i.e. Messengers.
real Messages i.e. Al-Quran.
real shaitans i.e. Iblis.
real time periods i.e. The Last Day.
real animals i.e dabbatin
real forces of Allah i.e. angels/malaika.

Real things, I believe, can be used metaphorically, however, that does not necessarily take from their objective real existence.

Messengers have the capability to disobey, but when they do they can no longer be called messengers until they trun back to the God, like Jonah.

Was Jonah, a prophet or a messenger or both? Let's leave Jonah for now and instead, pick a Messenger. Did any of the Messengers ever disobey Allah?

SIMILARLY, malaika when they disobey, they become shayteen

Messengers/Malaika (Adam)
Rejectors/Shayteen (Iblis)

Adam was a messenger? Please post that ayat, I would like to see it.

Its not hard to understand, even if you disagree.

That's exactly what the Christians say about their fantastic theories too.

PREIST Well, fine, all the better. Doesn't faith mean to have...complete/total trust in something? Didn't Allah, say to have complete/total trust in Him, His Angels, His Quran, and His Messenger? Tell me, how can anyone, therefore, have total trust in Allah's Angels/Malaika, if one of them rebelled?

Faith is something that you obtain when you see something happen over and over an over again, like the sun rising. I have faith it will rise again tommorrow because it has done so every day of my life, but the God and science tell us that one day this will not be so, should I not habe faith in the rising of the sun?

Does Allah, tell you to have faith in the sun, Idol? No, but He does tell you to have faith, that is, complete/total trust in Him, His Angels, His Book and His Messengers...nothing about having faith in anything else.

Btw, the sun doesn't rise or set anywhere, it is the earths rotation on its axis which gives impression that the sun rises and sets, however, the sun is 91 million miles removed for the earth and it is not going up and down in the sky. Do you see how perceptions can be faulty? It is the same at 234, that is, your perception is faulty and it only appears that Iblis was one of the malaika. Thanks for an excellent example on faulty perception.

Messengers are capable of disobveying , because they are humans, do you still have faith in them?

The question isn't what they were capable of, the question is...did any Messenger of Allah...disobey Him, yes or no?

Similarly, malaika can disobey and turn into shaytaan.

My God, is there no end to your pride ? Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans! My God, man, listen to yourself, dude. If the malaika can disobey and the Messengers can disobey, then, how can Allah say to HAVE COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says

4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?

For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a shaitan, to wit

720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.

721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.

Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did? What are you talking about?!

Idol, you need to stop, brother.

Stop being scared to think.

No, Idol, I am not afraid to think, however, you'd better start thinking. In your last two posts, you have

slandered the malaika by saying they disobey their Lord and thus become shaitans.
slandered the Messengers by saying that they can and have disobeyed Allah.
slandered Allah, by casting doubts on the things which He has told us to have complete/total trust in, thus, making Him an insincere guide/adviser.

I guess I was correct when I asked above...When will your folly finally run its course...when you slander Allah outright? Well, you've done that too...

At this point, Idol, what makes your doing any different than what Iblis, did? He too, refused to accept the truth, he was proud .

wildguest1956

Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans!

Salam,

I dont see what is the problem here.

The rule is
Malaika are not arrogant, and dont disobey to the commands of God

The fact is
Iblis disobeyed to the command of prostrating

So, according to the rule above, he ceased to be a malaika (he was disgraced, cf )

I see no inconsistency here.

He said Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced.

It is clear that Iblis was expected not to be arrogant, and to obey to the command of God (to prostrate before Adam).
He was expected that because before that event he was a malaika.

Hopes it helps,

Peace,
JM

unknownuser

PEACE JM

PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans!

Salam, I don?t see what is the problem here.

The rule is Malaika are not arrogant, and don?t disobey to the commands of God.

No, JM, it isn't the rule that the malaika do not disobey or show arrogance, it is Allah's law that they do not disobey or show arrogance, to wit

1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.

You see, JM, the above verse has no exceptions to it, it is an unqualified statement from Allah. The "angels" and the "animals" of the earth cannot disobey Allah or show arrogance...it is simply not in their created nature.

The fact is Iblis disobeyed to the command of prostrating

Yes, it is a fact that Iblis disobeyed a direct command, however, it was not because he was of the malaika creation, but of the Jinn creation and they were given the ability to choose to obey or disobey, whereas the animals and malaika weren't. Nowhere, does Allah ever directly define Iblis as a malaika, however, in 1850, Allah does define him as a Jinn. Why Idol and now you, choose to ignore this evidence simply escapes me. If Iblis were a malaika, then, as with him, all of the malaika were created of a scorching wind/fire and nowhere does Allah mention the basic composition of the malaika.

What is your response to what I asked Idol, yesterday

Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans! If the malaika can disobey and the Messengers can disobey, then, how can Allah say to HAVE COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says

4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?

For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a shaitan, to wit

720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.

721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.

Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?

So, according to the rule above, he ceased to be a malaika (he was disgraced, cf ) I see no inconsistency here.

How can he cease to be something, which Allah never labelled/defined him as such? You and Idol, are simply extrapolating that he was a malaika, however, nowhere, does Allah say that for a fact.

It is clear that Iblis was ?expected? not to be arrogant, and to obey to the command of God (to prostrate before Adam). He was ?expected? that because before that event he was a malaika.

While it is true that, Iblis, was expected to obey Allah's caommand, it was not because he was of the malaika, but he knew if the malaika had to obey, then, who was he not to. As I said, to define Iblis as a malaika, is to define the malaika as Jinn and nowhere does Allah define what their nature is.

Hopes it helps...

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

I am not making fun of/mocking/humiliating you. Danish, simply has way of putting things in a funny way.

I see.

PREIST 2. Did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?

Quote
Yes. but then of course they would not be described tha that time as "messengers". For example, Moses killed a man, is that obeying the God?

You see, this is why Danish and I cannot take you seriously. First, you slander Allah's malaika and now you slander the Messengers. When will your folly finally run its course...when you slander Allah outright? The question put to you was..."did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?". You answered "yes", knowing full well that that isn't true. Moses, was not a Messenger at the time he slew that individual, now was he?, hence, he did not disobey Allah. Please rescind your "yes" answer, unless, you want to continue to slander Allah's Messengers.

My concern is not if you and Danish take me seriously, I only debate you for those gathered who are witnessing this debate. If you are not satisfied with Moses example, what about Jonah?

Btw, what the heck does this mean? "but then of course they would not be described tha that time as "messengers".

If you could only understand what this means then we would not have to continue this debate. "Messenger" is a description of one who delivers the message, if one of them disobeys, they are not messangers, juts like if a submitter(muslim) disobeys they are no longer a submitter until they turn back to the God.

(567) You, you the messenger deliver/inform what was descended to you from your Lord, and if you did not make/do (that) so you did not reach (pass) His message, and The God protects/shelters you from the people, that God does not guide the nation, the disbelieving.

What do you get from the above verse, do you see the potential for one to disobey? Why else would thier be the warning? Please answer.

PREIST 4. Is Al-Quran, The Book, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?

Quote
There is no book titled "al QURAN", there is only the God's truthful words, which are from time to time written on pages.

You see, how you continue to play games? You know exactly what is being asked of you here. Anyway, let me re-phrase then. The ayats from Al-Fatihah to Al-Nas, are they doubtful things, can they be doubted?

The christians doubt them so I have to say yes.

Quote
Messengers have the capability to disobey, but when they do they can no longer be called messengers until they trun back to the God, like Jonah.

Was Jonah, a prophet or a messenger or both? Let's leave Jonah for now and instead, pick a Messenger. Did any of the Messengers ever disobey Allah?

Jonah wasn't a messenger?

(37139) And that truly Jonah (was) from (E) the messengers.
Wa-inna yoonusa lamina almursaleena

Can you answer the question now?

Quote
SIMILARLY, malaika when they disobey, they become shayteen

Messengers/Malaika (Adam)
Rejectors/Shayteen (Iblis)

Adam was a messenger? Please post that ayat, I would like to see it.

Sigh! Why cant you pay attention? I did not say Adam was a messenger, I said He represents mankind(from which there are messengers). I was showing the opposites, please look again at the diagram.

Btw, the sun doesn't rise or set anywhere, it is the earths rotation on its axis which gives impression that the sun rises and sets, however, the sun is 91 million miles removed for the earth and it is not going up and down in the sky. Do you see how perceptions can be faulty? It is the same at 234, that is, your perception is faulty and it only appears that Iblis was one of the malaika. Thanks for an excellent example on faulty perception.

Its good to see you did not fall asleep in science class like you did grammar (EXCEPTIONS). Your argument is steadily falling apart. You stoop to the level of trying to imply I am not aware that the earth rotates around the sun. I wonder if you will charge Abraham with the same faulty perception.

(225 ... Abraham said "So then God comes with the sun from the east , so come with it from the west." So who disbelieved was astonished/confused , and God does not guide the nation the unjust/oppressive.

Or Dhul Quarnain

(1886) Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water...

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Messengers are capable of disobveying , because they are humans, do you still have faith in them?

The question isn't what they were capable of, the question is...did any Messenger of Allah...disobey Him, yes or no?

YES, Jonah.

My God, is there no end to your pride ? Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans! My God, man, listen to yourself, dude. If the malaika can disobey and the Messengers can disobey, then, how can Allah say to HAVE COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide?

Yes,malaika do not disobey excpet IBLIS. Just make sure your thoughts are from the God, not from your own rebellious desires and you will be fine. Regarding messengers, just verify the message they bring and you will be fine. That way you only have to rely on your own intellect, and will not stand before the Most High trying to blame someone else.

For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a shaitan

We are to have faith in malaika, not shayteen. When a malaika disobeys, it becomes a shayteen. We have faith in malaika, not shayteen. Why cant you understand this?

Please address Jonah.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you JM,

It is clear that Iblis was ?expected? not to be arrogant, and to obey to the command of God (to prostrate before Adam).
He was ?expected? that because before that event he was a malaika.

Very clear

Hopes it helps,

me too!

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.

You see, JM, the above verse has no exceptions to it, it is an unqualified statement from Allah. The "angels" and the "animals" of the earth cannot disobey Allah or show arrogance...it is simply not in their created nature.

(1032) Truly the human/mankind (is) in loss.

The above verse also has no exceptions in it either. Of course yo are aware that this reading was not descended with verse numbers, but since you want to play this game, we can play. How does this SINGLE VERSE WITH NO EXCEPTIONS differ from 1650?

You and Idol, are simply extrapolating that he was a malaika, however, nowhere, does Allah say that for a fact.

While it is true that, Iblis, was expected to obey Allah's caommand, it was not because he was of the malaika, but he knew if the malaika had to obey, then, who was he not to.

And yo uhave the nerve to talk about extrapolating?

THEY prostrated EXCEPT iblis!! Who is THEY?

wildguest1956

PEACE JM

PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans!

Salam, I dont see what is the problem here.

The rule is Malaika are not arrogant, and dont disobey to the commands of God.

No, JM, it isn't the rule that the malaika do not disobey or show arrogance, it is Allah's law that they do not disobey or show arrogance, to wit

1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.

You see, JM, the above verse has no exceptions to it, it is an unqualified statement from Allah. The "angels" and the "animals" of the earth cannot disobey Allah or show arrogance...it is simply not in their created nature.

Peace PB,

You should consider the whole quran, an not take a single verse apart and try to conform the rest of the quran to it.

As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception.
But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .

The fact is Iblis disobeyed to the command of prostrating

Yes, it is a fact that Iblis disobeyed a direct command, however, it was not because he was of the malaika creation, but of the Jinn creation

Are you sure there exists a special kind of beings named jinns ?
I dont.

The word jinn is just a characteristic of Iblis , like the word kuffar (rejecter) in .
And the fact he has been created from fire symbolises its fiery (arrogant) nature.

The fire is commonly used as a symbol in the Quran, like here

Surely, those who conceal what God has sent down of the Scripture, and they purchase with it a cheap price; they will not eat in their stomachs except the Fire, and God will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they will have a painful retribution.

And this verse does not mean that they will be literally eating fire. It is symbolism.

Creation of man with clay is symbolism too, of his malleability (his ability to learn). This is detailed in .

and they were given the ability to choose to obey or disobey,

Can you give the verse that show that ?

If Iblis were a malaika, then, as with him, all of the malaika were created of a scorching wind/fire and nowhere does Allah mention the basic composition of the malaika.

Right, Allah does not mention the basic composition of the malaika
So, why do you deem it is not possible that Iblis was a special malaika created from fire ?. A fact that should not imply that all malaika share the same composition

So, according to the rule above, he ceased to be a malaika (he was disgraced, cf ) I see no inconsistency here.

How can he cease to be something, which Allah never labelled/defined him as such? You and Idol, are simply extrapolating that he was a malaika, however, nowhere, does Allah say that for a fact.

So How do you understand the disgracing of Iblis ?
What does it mean for you ?
Why was he expected to obey and not to be arrogant (if he, as you say, had been given the ability to disobey) ?
What did he lose, due to his arrogant attitude ?

It is clear that Iblis was expected not to be arrogant, and to obey to the command of God (to prostrate before Adam). He was expected that because before that event he was a malaika.

While it is true that, Iblis, was expected to obey Allah's caommand, it was not because he was of the malaika, but he knew if the malaika had to obey, then, who was he not to.

Thats just conjecture
Assuming Iblis was not a malaika, what was he doing with them ?
How did he knew that he had to obey ?
Why were God surprised he did not obey to a command given to the malaika ?

Peace,
JM

unknownuser

Peace Kyle,

Danish, show me one thing that DOES NOT belong to the God. Even "iblis" belongs to the God. For example, a teacher makes a grading system of A,B,C,D,E,F. While the teacher hopes no one gets an F, it is still part of the teachers system.

Firstly, was the grading system made by GOD Himself? And secondly, you answered your own question..... "teacher's system". How about your pants? Do you know the difference between what is GOD-made and what is man-made?

No, not pre concieved, reasoned with the understanding that this whole message is one designed to purify your MIND(nafs), one would expect the inner workings of the MIND to be addressed. It fits perfectly.

I am not talking about Al-Quran's integrity or Its message. You are playing a different game here? Al-Quran, certainly is designed to purify ones mind and hence lead a righteous life. I have no doubt in that. What I am concerned about, in this thread, the bizzare theories you bring about regarding jinns and angels as per the Quran, containing inconsistencies, contradictions, confusions, twisting effects, etc. To top it up, you further insist that you don't and hesitate to admit your stand. I will leave you to figure out what such persons are called?

You are streching far trying to bring about some contradiction in my position. The thoughts are that which need to be controlled.

Once again, you dismiss the fact and hesitate to see and accept your own cotradictions. Since thoughts need to be controlled, better act upon your ones, as they are flying hither and thither, before GOD sends a "controlled one" down.

We are here purifying our minds(nafs)(917-10). We are a product of the God's Mind. We are made according to the God's pattern. When you follow thw God's path, the God's controlled thoughts enter your mind, when you follow the wrong path, YOUR rejecting thoughts take over. That is why Good is from the God, bad is from your self.

For now, you need FirstAid, please take care of your rejecting ones that are following the wrong path. We can then talk control to control, i.e. one-on-one.

WHat kind of "creature" is it? Especially describe the "shayteen" whom the rejectors are "alone" with.

Shaytaan is singular and shayateen is plural. It is not a "creature" but a term exclusively reserved for wrongdoers/evil beings (human and jinn kinds - creatures).

Quote
If you understand ONENESS, then you will understand that when you submit to the God, HE takes CONTROL.

It is only when we sin that we become divided, when we follow the righteous path we become ONE under th eControl of the God's Will.

This has nothing to do with HIS angels or HIS malaika, but humans, jinns and perhaps other creatures, simply because angels DO NOT SIN OR GET DIVIDED as you suggest.

Bring proof.

Bring proof of what? That angels do not sin or get divided like sunnis/shias? Haven't you read in the Quran that ANGELS DO NOT DISOBEY GOD'S COMMANDS? Isn't that enough proooooof to get into your thick head that GOD would have HIS own "controlled thoughts" to commit sin? Can't you think and reason, instead of bluntly asking to bring proof? Man, you are getting way out of hand.

Is there anything that does not belong to the God?

How many times are you going to repeat this? See above in bold and the answer is stated.

Quote
The BIG question is, how can GOD's Controlled Thought (HIS malaika), that is, if you are certain that GOD "thinks", can get derailed.

They don't,....

If "They don't", then why do you insist that they "do"? Do you know GOD's Thoughts? Does GOD think? You didn't answer the BIG question corrrectly and went on with some gibberish talks. Besides, I am taking about GOD (HIS Controlled Thoughts), not we.

Quote
Can you answer my question about THEY now?

Who is "THEY" in the statement "THEY prostrated except iblis"

The "THEY" are refered to all of GOD's spirits, as far as I can understand, although I could be wrong.

WHAT?? you are guessing and saying you could be wrong? I'm sorry, I thought you had a clear understanding that you were debating with. I will let you finish putting your understanding together before I debate you, because this only shows you just want to try to prove me wrong. If you have not at least put a plausible theory together, how can you KNOW if you are right or wrong?

I knew you would jump on this and thus brings out your flavoured reluctnacy. Anyhow, I am not trying to prove you wrong, but you are certainly and definitely ARE WRONG, as per many of your contradictory/twisting posts, whether you like it or not. The problem is, you hesitate to admit. Just because of not being certain about the ?THEY? in a specific verse, doesn?t jeopardize oneself from understanding other verses or the entire Quran.

Now, also, I do know that the "THEY" could go either way, i.e. angels/spirits/all. Regardless of what 'THEY" are, one thing is for certain, Iblis was NOT an angel but a jinn, as per the Quran. This also tells us that there were jinns already there, apart from angels, thus Iblis being one. Besides angels, the Quran also talks about other spirits in heavens ( 7338, 974).

I really don't care who "THEY" were, as long as one understands that the Quran is clear and explicit on who Iblis was and who the angels are. That's the crux of the matter. Once understood, other verses come together.

The verse say that the malaika were ordered, there is no mention of any "all" or "spirits", only "malaika".

Neither does the verse or anywhere in the Quran does it say that Iblis was a malaika. Listen, understand, reason and ponder upon other verses of the Quran where sufficient information is given about jinns and malaika. No need to bring confusion and chaos by cherry-picking.

Sister, does that really sit comfortably with you? Be honest. There is no way possible you can make "malaika" into all whole group of assembled "spirits" (whatever that is). The verse say as clear as day that the God commanded the "malaika", is this true or false?

The way I understand, it is also not possible for an angel to become a jinn. Again, reason and understand. The way I vision Al-Quran, is simple and clear, but not easy.

We are here because "iblis" reprents something within ALL OF US. Do you think we are here paying for the sinsof a man named Adam and a Woman named Eve(this reading only says his wife)? When you realize that one does not pay for anothers sins, you will see that the story of Adam and his wife represents the fall of each and every one of us. Likewise. "iblis" is a charateristic that all of us have fallen into in the past, and some continue to listen to the whisperer.

The two bolds above contradict each other. I slightly have a different vision though but GOD knows what really happened back then.

Thanks for showing the same respect I showed you, speaks volumes.

Pleasure. Only if you got off your lazy butt and looked back. To me, that speaks volumes.

What, in full deatail, are the following concepts to YOU? ( Jinn, malaika, shaytaan, iblis)

I believe the jinns and malaika are creatures, Iblis is a name and shaytaan is a term.

What are these creatures, please tell us more about them and how they effect our lives.

Everything has been explained in detail throughout this forum. Further, my answers presented via Quranic understanding don?t seem to do you any good. Therefore, read the Quran and it'll detail you with everything you need to know. Besides, since you've no further interest to debate or more so lack of understanding, I rather suggest you grasp the Quranic injunctions/message properly to give you the precise knowledge that you are seeking. Ofcourse, I believe no one is perfectly and accurately attuned to Quranic understanding and we all have our ups and downs. If you can understand it, then fine. If not, then please don?t start alluding away from what the Quran is explicit about by injecting and dwelling on what is not. I, in the meantime, shall study your analysis further, given the answers by others as well, relevant to the Quran and natural effects.

In fact, save it. I have no further intrest to debate you until you get a theory that you think is solid, THEN we can test our theories against each other and one will naturally stand out and each can choose as they may. Until then, this is only a game to you. YOu don't even show at least equal respect to answer the questions I gave even when I repeated my answers for you.

I don't like to parrot or become repetitious, specially when talking to an adult acting like a child and having an egoistic, evasive, unrelenting and twisting thoughts who hesitates to admit that he is wrong..

Like I stated, when one is alone on stage it gets a little more difiicult.

Many are pretty good at it, with ease.

unknownuser

Peace Kyle,

In 230, 711 & 1528, who, what or which ?controlled thoughts? GOD is talking to, before HE even created us?

In 298, who are Gabriel and Michael? Are these the names of some ?control thoughts??

In 2102, who are Haroot and Maroot? Are these the names of more or some other ?control thoughts??

In 2210, how would ?controlled thoughts? descend from above along with GOD, when, according to you, we as humans, possess controlled/uncontrolled thoughts, existing on earth? Who or Which ?controlled thoughts? GOD is talking about in the heavens other than HIMSELF, that would descend down on earth along with GOD and the whole matter would be terminated?

In 2285, the messengers or prophets of GOD, who already possess controlled thoughts, why are they ordered to believe in other ?controlled thoughts? in heaven? Are there different categories or species of ?controlled thoughts? that one must believe in or reject?

In 2248, what is being carried by ?controlled thoughts??

In 380, how does one idolize a ?controlled thought? as Lord, yet become disbelievers, knowing that the very ?controlled thought? belongs to GOD?

In 3124 & 125, how does 3,000/5000 ?controlled thoughts? support the already supported believers?

In 497, how do ?controlled thoughts? terminate ones lives?

In 68, GOD says that if HE had sent down a ?controlled thought?, the whole matter would have been terminated. Has the matter been terminated in yours or mine?s case, since we have them here on earth?

In 68, can a ?controlled thought? become or change into a man?

In 650 &1131, why is a ?controlled thought? not a ?controlled thought?

In 693, how do ?controlled thoughts? extend their hands to snatch away souls?

In 6111, what kind of ?controlled thoughts? are those which cannot control, specially when they are controlled by GOD Himself? Are you defying GOD's Power?

In 720, it seems that the ?controlled thought? was already in place, but because another ?controlled thought? who became ?uncontrolled?, doesn?t want a ?controlled thought? to become a ?controlled thought?? Perhaps you might have some difficulty understanding this.

In 89, how is someone on earth who is imploring GOD, supported with 1,000 ?controlled thoughts? from above to get rescued? What are these ?controlled thoughts? above called?

In 812, how does GOD inspire ?controlled thoughts? to support the already ?controlled thoughts??

In 850 & 4727, how does ?controlled thoughts? put someone to death and beat them on their faces and rear-ends?

In 1231, how is ?controlled thought? not a human being?

In 1740, why is the verse talking about GOD giving males/boys to humans while keeping female/daughters as ?controlled thoughts? to HIMSELF? Don?t the males have ?controlled thoughts?? This would be really interesting?

In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by ?controlled thoughts?, what would be the point of sending a ?controlled thought? from above as messenger?

In 1850 & 20116, a ?controlled thought? becomes uncontrolled.

In 2275, why are there two distinct species, one from among ?controlled thoughts? as messengers and another from among people as messengers?

In 351, why are ?controlled thoughts? said to be messengers with wings?

In 37150, did GOD create ?controlled thoughts? as females?

In 4114, weren?t the messengers having controlled thoughts not enough?

In 4319, how is it that the claim made on ?controlled thoughts? to become servants as females?

In 4360, how do ?controlled thoughts? colonize and reproduce?

In 5337, how are ?controlled thoughts? given feminine names?

In 7338 & 974, the verse mentions spirits and angels? If angels mean ?controlled thoughts?, what do spirits mean? How is that angels and spirits are mentioned together, likewise humans and jinns?

unknownuser

PEACE IDOL

PREIST Did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?

IDOL Yes. but then of course they would not be described tha that time as "messengers". For example, Moses killed a man, is that obeying the God?

PREIST You see, this is why Danish and I cannot take you seriously. First, you slander Allah's malaika and now you slander the Messengers. When will your folly finally run its course...when you slander Allah outright? The question put to you was..."did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?". You answered "yes", knowing full well that that isn't true. Moses, was not a Messenger at the time he slew that individual, now was he?, hence, he did not disobey Allah. Please rescind your "yes" answer, unless, you want to continue to slander Allah's Messengers.

My concern is not if you and Danish take me seriously, I only debate you for those gathered who are witnessing this debate. If you are not satisfied with Moses example, what about Jonah?

You need to rescind your suggestion that, Moses, disobeyed Allah, please do so. Jonah, without doubt, was a Messenger, however, he did not disobey Allah's command to address his people. If he disobeyed Allah, please post the ayat where Allah says that.

If you could only understand what this means then we would not have to continue this debate. "Messenger" is a description of one who delivers the message, if one of them disobeys, they are not messangers, juts like if a submitter(muslim) disobeys they are no longer a submitter until they turn back to the God.

(567) You, you the messenger deliver/inform what was descended to you from your Lord, and if you did not make/do (that) so you did not reach (pass) His message, and The God protects/shelters you from the people, that God does not guide the nation, the disbelieving.

What do you get from the above verse, do you see the potential for one to disobey? Why else would thier be the warning? Please answer.

Idol, potential be damned, the question before you and this forum is...did any of the Messengers ACTUALLY disobey to carry out Allah's command to them, YES or NO?

Main Entry ACTUAL existing in fact or reality not false or apparent.

PREIST 4. Is Al-Quran, The Book, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?

IDOL There is no book titled "al QURAN", there is only the God's truthful words, which are from time to time written on pages.

PREIST You see, how you continue to play games? You know exactly what is being asked of you here. Anyway, let me re-phrase then. The ayats from Al-Fatihah to Al-Nas, are they doubtful things, can they be doubted?

The christians doubt them so I have to say yes.

???? Oh, I see, because the Christians doubt Allah's Quran, you are going to collude with their shirk and kufr, is that your position? If so, then, your position, NOT YOU, is flagrantly hypocritical, pure and simple, because Allah says this

22 This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).

Now, who, do you believe...Allah or the Christians?

PREIST Btw, the sun doesn't rise or set anywhere, it is the earths rotation on its axis which gives impression that the sun rises and sets, however, the sun is 91 million miles removed for the earth and it is not going up and down in the sky. Do you see how perceptions can be faulty? It is the same at 234, that is, your perception is faulty and it only appears that Iblis was one of the malaika. Thanks for an excellent example on faulty perception.

Its good to see you did not fall asleep in science class like you did grammar (EXCEPTIONS). Your argument is steadily falling apart. You stoop to the level of trying to imply I am not aware that the earth rotates around the sun. I wonder if you will charge Abraham with the same faulty perception.

I have to wonder, regarding Abraham and Dhul Qarnain, if those ayats are properly translated. It would seen incongruous of Allah, to use rising and setting, given the fact, that isn't the reality of things.

My God, is there no end to your pride ? Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans! My God, man, listen to yourself, dude. If the malaika can disobey and the Messengers can disobey, then, how can Allah say to HAVE COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide?

Yes,malaika do not disobey excpet IBLIS.

"Yes, malaika, do not disobey"
"except IBLIS"

Can't you even recognize a simple contradiction, My God, what is wrong with you?!

Just make sure your thoughts are from the God, not from your own rebellious desires and you will be fine. Regarding messengers, just verify the message they bring and you will be fine. That way you only have to rely on your own intellect, and will not stand before the Most High trying to blame someone else.

What are you talking about?!

PREIST For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a shaitan

We are to have faith in malaika, not shayteen. When a malaika disobeys, it becomes a shayteen. We have faith in malaika, not shayteen. Why cant you understand this?

Does Allah tell you to have faith in shaitans?!? what ayat are you reading?! Allah, tells you to have faith, that is, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST in Him, His Malaika, His Book, and His Messengers!!!

IDOL, it is clear to me and, I'm sure to any other believer here that, your position, NOT YOU, but your position/arguement, is kufr, munafiq, and shaitanic one and here's why

2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.

4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

You've claimed that, Allah's Messenger, Yunus, disobeyed, when clearly he did not. This is EGREGIOUS SLANDER.
You've claimed that, Allah's angels, are capable of disobedience and, at least one did. This is EGREGIOUS SLANDER.
You've called Allah, a liar, because Allah said to have total faith in Him, meaning that, whatever He tells you in Al-Quran, is the absolute and invioable truth, yet, you stated "The christians doubt them so I have to say yes". Further, Allah, says to have faith, that is, complete/total in Him, His Malaika, His Quran, and His Messenger, yet, your position is that Allah's Quran is doubtful, one of the Messengers disobeyed Him and one of the Malaika disobeyed Him.

My question to you, which you didn't answer was, how can Allah, tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust? 4122...and who is truer of word than Allah? What is Allah, calling man to have faith in then, if what He is telling man to have faith in is going to betray him?? Don't you realize that your position/arguement is, calling Allah a liar??? This is EGREGIOUS SLANDER.

Once you rejected 2177, 4136 and 4122, you proved for all to see that, you have absolutely no regard for the truth, you own soul or anyone else's souls, to possiblly risk misleading them with your totally un-Quranic arguement.

unknownuser

PEACE JM

PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans!

Quote
Salam, I don?t see what is the problem here.

The rule is Malaika are not arrogant, and don?t disobey to the commands of God.

No, JM, it isn't the rule that the malaika do not disobey or show arrogance, it is Allah's law that they do not disobey or show arrogance, to wit

1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.

You see, JM, the above verse has no exceptions to it, it is an unqualified statement from Allah. The "angels" and the "animals" of the earth cannot disobey Allah or show arrogance...it is simply not in their created nature.

Peace PB,

You should consider the whole quran, an not take a single verse apart and try to conform the rest of the quran to it.

As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception.
But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .

You should consider reading my posts before making such ignorant suggestions. I quoted 234, 1649, 1650, 1850, 2177, 4122, 4136, what are you talking about?!

PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote

Quote
The fact is Iblis disobeyed to the command of prostrating

Yes, it is a fact that Iblis disobeyed a direct command, however, it was not because he was of the malaika creation, but of the Jinn creation

Are you sure there exists a special kind of beings named jinns ?
I don?t.

The word jinn is just a characteristic of Iblis , like the word kuffar (rejecter) in .
And the fact he has been created from fire symbolises its fiery (arrogant) nature.

The fire is commonly used as a symbol in the Quran, like here

Surely, those who conceal what God has sent down of the Scripture, and they purchase with it a cheap price; they will not eat in their stomachs except the Fire, and God will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they will have a painful retribution.

And this verse does not mean that they will be literally eating fire. It is symbolism.

Creation of man with clay is symbolism too, of his malleability (his ability to learn). This is detailed in .

The Jinn, are homo sapien sapiens, period.

PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote

and they were given the ability to choose to obey or disobey,

Can you give the verse that show that ?

721 Say It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn listened, and they said Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran,

7211 And that some of us are good and others of us are below that we are sects following different ways

PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote

If Iblis were a malaika, then, as with him, all of the malaika were created of a scorching wind/fire and nowhere does Allah mention the basic composition of the malaika.

Right, Allah does not mention the basic composition of the malaika?
So, why do you deem it is not possible that Iblis was a special malaika created from fire ??. A fact that should not imply that all malaika share the same composition
?

LOL!! Oh, now, Iblis, is a "special kind of malaika", you are unbelievable. How about this instead..."Iblis, was of the Jinn"--1850

PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote

Quote
So, according to the rule above, he ceased to be a malaika (he was disgraced, cf ) I see no inconsistency here.

How can he cease to be something, which Allah never labelled/defined him as such? You and Idol, are simply extrapolating that he was a malaika, however, nowhere, does Allah say that for a fact.

So? How do you understand the disgracing of Iblis ?
What does it mean for you ?
Why was he expected to obey and not to be arrogant (if he, as you say, had been given the ability to disobey) ?
What did he lose, due to his arrogant attitude ?

Iblis, a homo sapien sapien, just like Adam, refused to submit to the leadership of Adam, hence, Iblis, refused to obey Allah's command to obey Adam.

PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote

Quote
It is clear that Iblis was ?expected? not to be arrogant, and to obey to the command of God (to prostrate before Adam). He was ?expected? that because before that event he was a malaika.

While it is true that, Iblis, was expected to obey Allah's caommand, it was not because he was of the malaika, but he knew if the malaika had to obey, then, who was he not to.

That?s just conjecture?
Assuming Iblis was not a malaika, what was he doing with them ?
How did he knew that he had to obey ?
Why were God surprised he did not obey to a command given to the malaika ?

I just answered this above.