WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...
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PEACE JM
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans!
Salam, I don?t see what is the problem here.
The rule is Malaika are not arrogant, and don?t disobey to the commands of God.
No, JM, it isn't the rule that the malaika do not disobey or show arrogance, it is Allah's law that they do not disobey or show arrogance, to wit
1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
You see, JM, the above verse has no exceptions to it, it is an unqualified statement from Allah. The "angels" and the "animals" of the earth cannot disobey Allah or show arrogance...it is simply not in their created nature.
The fact is Iblis disobeyed to the command of prostrating
Yes, it is a fact that Iblis disobeyed a direct command, however, it was not because he was of the malaika creation, but of the Jinn creation and they were given the ability to choose to obey or disobey, whereas the animals and malaika weren't. Nowhere, does Allah ever directly define Iblis as a malaika, however, in 1850, Allah does define him as a Jinn. Why Idol and now you, choose to ignore this evidence simply escapes me. If Iblis were a malaika, then, as with him, all of the malaika were created of a scorching wind/fire and nowhere does Allah mention the basic composition of the malaika.
What is your response to what I asked Idol, yesterday
Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans! If the malaika can disobey and the Messengers can disobey, then, how can Allah say to HAVE COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
So, according to the rule above, he ceased to be a malaika (he was disgraced, cf ) I see no inconsistency here.
How can he cease to be something, which Allah never labelled/defined him as such? You and Idol, are simply extrapolating that he was a malaika, however, nowhere, does Allah say that for a fact.
It is clear that Iblis was ?expected? not to be arrogant, and to obey to the command of God (to prostrate before Adam). He was ?expected? that because before that event he was a malaika.
While it is true that, Iblis, was expected to obey Allah's caommand, it was not because he was of the malaika, but he knew if the malaika had to obey, then, who was he not to. As I said, to define Iblis as a malaika, is to define the malaika as Jinn and nowhere does Allah define what their nature is.
Hopes it helps...
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Peace be upon you PB,
I am not making fun of/mocking/humiliating you. Danish, simply has way of putting things in a funny way.
I see.
PREIST 2. Did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?
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Yes. but then of course they would not be described tha that time as "messengers". For example, Moses killed a man, is that obeying the God?You see, this is why Danish and I cannot take you seriously. First, you slander Allah's malaika and now you slander the Messengers. When will your folly finally run its course...when you slander Allah outright? The question put to you was..."did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?". You answered "yes", knowing full well that that isn't true. Moses, was not a Messenger at the time he slew that individual, now was he?, hence, he did not disobey Allah. Please rescind your "yes" answer, unless, you want to continue to slander Allah's Messengers.
My concern is not if you and Danish take me seriously, I only debate you for those gathered who are witnessing this debate. If you are not satisfied with Moses example, what about Jonah?
Btw, what the heck does this mean? "but then of course they would not be described tha that time as "messengers".
If you could only understand what this means then we would not have to continue this debate. "Messenger" is a description of one who delivers the message, if one of them disobeys, they are not messangers, juts like if a submitter(muslim) disobeys they are no longer a submitter until they turn back to the God.
(567) You, you the messenger deliver/inform what was descended to you from your Lord, and if you did not make/do (that) so you did not reach (pass) His message, and The God protects/shelters you from the people, that God does not guide the nation, the disbelieving.
What do you get from the above verse, do you see the potential for one to disobey? Why else would thier be the warning? Please answer.
PREIST 4. Is Al-Quran, The Book, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?
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There is no book titled "al QURAN", there is only the God's truthful words, which are from time to time written on pages.You see, how you continue to play games? You know exactly what is being asked of you here. Anyway, let me re-phrase then. The ayats from Al-Fatihah to Al-Nas, are they doubtful things, can they be doubted?
The christians doubt them so I have to say yes.
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Messengers have the capability to disobey, but when they do they can no longer be called messengers until they trun back to the God, like Jonah.Was Jonah, a prophet or a messenger or both? Let's leave Jonah for now and instead, pick a Messenger. Did any of the Messengers ever disobey Allah?
Jonah wasn't a messenger?
(37139) And that truly Jonah (was) from (E) the messengers.
Wa-inna yoonusa lamina almursaleenaCan you answer the question now?
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SIMILARLY, malaika when they disobey, they become shayteenMessengers/Malaika (Adam)
Rejectors/Shayteen (Iblis)Adam was a messenger? Please post that ayat, I would like to see it.
Sigh! Why cant you pay attention? I did not say Adam was a messenger, I said He represents mankind(from which there are messengers). I was showing the opposites, please look again at the diagram.
Btw, the sun doesn't rise or set anywhere, it is the earths rotation on its axis which gives impression that the sun rises and sets, however, the sun is 91 million miles removed for the earth and it is not going up and down in the sky. Do you see how perceptions can be faulty? It is the same at 234, that is, your perception is faulty and it only appears that Iblis was one of the malaika. Thanks for an excellent example on faulty perception.
Its good to see you did not fall asleep in science class like you did grammar (EXCEPTIONS). Your argument is steadily falling apart. You stoop to the level of trying to imply I am not aware that the earth rotates around the sun. I wonder if you will charge Abraham with the same faulty perception.
(225 ... Abraham said "So then God comes with the sun from the east , so come with it from the west." So who disbelieved was astonished/confused , and God does not guide the nation the unjust/oppressive.
Or Dhul Quarnain
(1886) Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water...
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Messengers are capable of disobveying , because they are humans, do you still have faith in them?The question isn't what they were capable of, the question is...did any Messenger of Allah...disobey Him, yes or no?
YES, Jonah.
My God, is there no end to your pride ? Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans! My God, man, listen to yourself, dude. If the malaika can disobey and the Messengers can disobey, then, how can Allah say to HAVE COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide?
Yes,malaika do not disobey excpet IBLIS. Just make sure your thoughts are from the God, not from your own rebellious desires and you will be fine. Regarding messengers, just verify the message they bring and you will be fine. That way you only have to rely on your own intellect, and will not stand before the Most High trying to blame someone else.
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a shaitan
We are to have faith in malaika, not shayteen. When a malaika disobeys, it becomes a shayteen. We have faith in malaika, not shayteen. Why cant you understand this?
Please address Jonah.
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Peace be upon you JM,
It is clear that Iblis was ?expected? not to be arrogant, and to obey to the command of God (to prostrate before Adam).
He was ?expected? that because before that event he was a malaika.Very clear
Hopes it helps,
me too!
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Peace be upon you all,
1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
You see, JM, the above verse has no exceptions to it, it is an unqualified statement from Allah. The "angels" and the "animals" of the earth cannot disobey Allah or show arrogance...it is simply not in their created nature.
(1032) Truly the human/mankind (is) in loss.
The above verse also has no exceptions in it either. Of course yo are aware that this reading was not descended with verse numbers, but since you want to play this game, we can play. How does this SINGLE VERSE WITH NO EXCEPTIONS differ from 1650?
You and Idol, are simply extrapolating that he was a malaika, however, nowhere, does Allah say that for a fact.
While it is true that, Iblis, was expected to obey Allah's caommand, it was not because he was of the malaika, but he knew if the malaika had to obey, then, who was he not to.
And yo uhave the nerve to talk about extrapolating?
THEY prostrated EXCEPT iblis!! Who is THEY?
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PEACE JM
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans!
Salam, I dont see what is the problem here.
The rule is Malaika are not arrogant, and dont disobey to the commands of God.
No, JM, it isn't the rule that the malaika do not disobey or show arrogance, it is Allah's law that they do not disobey or show arrogance, to wit
1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
You see, JM, the above verse has no exceptions to it, it is an unqualified statement from Allah. The "angels" and the "animals" of the earth cannot disobey Allah or show arrogance...it is simply not in their created nature.
Peace PB,
You should consider the whole quran, an not take a single verse apart and try to conform the rest of the quran to it.
As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception.
But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .The fact is Iblis disobeyed to the command of prostrating
Yes, it is a fact that Iblis disobeyed a direct command, however, it was not because he was of the malaika creation, but of the Jinn creation
Are you sure there exists a special kind of beings named jinns ?
I dont.The word jinn is just a characteristic of Iblis , like the word kuffar (rejecter) in .
And the fact he has been created from fire symbolises its fiery (arrogant) nature.The fire is commonly used as a symbol in the Quran, like here
Surely, those who conceal what God has sent down of the Scripture, and they purchase with it a cheap price; they will not eat in their stomachs except the Fire, and God will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they will have a painful retribution.
And this verse does not mean that they will be literally eating fire. It is symbolism.
Creation of man with clay is symbolism too, of his malleability (his ability to learn). This is detailed in .
and they were given the ability to choose to obey or disobey,
Can you give the verse that show that ?
If Iblis were a malaika, then, as with him, all of the malaika were created of a scorching wind/fire and nowhere does Allah mention the basic composition of the malaika.
Right, Allah does not mention the basic composition of the malaika
So, why do you deem it is not possible that Iblis was a special malaika created from fire ?. A fact that should not imply that all malaika share the same compositionSo, according to the rule above, he ceased to be a malaika (he was disgraced, cf ) I see no inconsistency here.
How can he cease to be something, which Allah never labelled/defined him as such? You and Idol, are simply extrapolating that he was a malaika, however, nowhere, does Allah say that for a fact.
So How do you understand the disgracing of Iblis ?
What does it mean for you ?
Why was he expected to obey and not to be arrogant (if he, as you say, had been given the ability to disobey) ?
What did he lose, due to his arrogant attitude ?It is clear that Iblis was expected not to be arrogant, and to obey to the command of God (to prostrate before Adam). He was expected that because before that event he was a malaika.
While it is true that, Iblis, was expected to obey Allah's caommand, it was not because he was of the malaika, but he knew if the malaika had to obey, then, who was he not to.
Thats just conjecture
Assuming Iblis was not a malaika, what was he doing with them ?
How did he knew that he had to obey ?
Why were God surprised he did not obey to a command given to the malaika ?Peace,
JM -
Peace Kyle,
Danish, show me one thing that DOES NOT belong to the God. Even "iblis" belongs to the God. For example, a teacher makes a grading system of A,B,C,D,E,F. While the teacher hopes no one gets an F, it is still part of the teachers system.
Firstly, was the grading system made by GOD Himself? And secondly, you answered your own question..... "teacher's system". How about your pants? Do you know the difference between what is GOD-made and what is man-made?
No, not pre concieved, reasoned with the understanding that this whole message is one designed to purify your MIND(nafs), one would expect the inner workings of the MIND to be addressed. It fits perfectly.
I am not talking about Al-Quran's integrity or Its message. You are playing a different game here? Al-Quran, certainly is designed to purify ones mind and hence lead a righteous life. I have no doubt in that. What I am concerned about, in this thread, the bizzare theories you bring about regarding jinns and angels as per the Quran, containing inconsistencies, contradictions, confusions, twisting effects, etc. To top it up, you further insist that you don't and hesitate to admit your stand. I will leave you to figure out what such persons are called?
You are streching far trying to bring about some contradiction in my position. The thoughts are that which need to be controlled.
Once again, you dismiss the fact and hesitate to see and accept your own cotradictions. Since thoughts need to be controlled, better act upon your ones, as they are flying hither and thither, before GOD sends a "controlled one" down.
We are here purifying our minds(nafs)(917-10). We are a product of the God's Mind. We are made according to the God's pattern. When you follow thw God's path, the God's controlled thoughts enter your mind, when you follow the wrong path, YOUR rejecting thoughts take over. That is why Good is from the God, bad is from your self.
For now, you need FirstAid, please take care of your rejecting ones that are following the wrong path. We can then talk control to control, i.e. one-on-one.
WHat kind of "creature" is it? Especially describe the "shayteen" whom the rejectors are "alone" with.
Shaytaan is singular and shayateen is plural. It is not a "creature" but a term exclusively reserved for wrongdoers/evil beings (human and jinn kinds - creatures).
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If you understand ONENESS, then you will understand that when you submit to the God, HE takes CONTROL.It is only when we sin that we become divided, when we follow the righteous path we become ONE under th eControl of the God's Will.
This has nothing to do with HIS angels or HIS malaika, but humans, jinns and perhaps other creatures, simply because angels DO NOT SIN OR GET DIVIDED as you suggest.
Bring proof.
Bring proof of what? That angels do not sin or get divided like sunnis/shias? Haven't you read in the Quran that ANGELS DO NOT DISOBEY GOD'S COMMANDS? Isn't that enough proooooof to get into your thick head that GOD would have HIS own "controlled thoughts" to commit sin? Can't you think and reason, instead of bluntly asking to bring proof? Man, you are getting way out of hand.
Is there anything that does not belong to the God?
How many times are you going to repeat this? See above in bold and the answer is stated.
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The BIG question is, how can GOD's Controlled Thought (HIS malaika), that is, if you are certain that GOD "thinks", can get derailed.They don't,....
If "They don't", then why do you insist that they "do"? Do you know GOD's Thoughts? Does GOD think? You didn't answer the BIG question corrrectly and went on with some gibberish talks. Besides, I am taking about GOD (HIS Controlled Thoughts), not we.
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Can you answer my question about THEY now?- Who is "THEY" in the statement "THEY prostrated except iblis"
The "THEY" are refered to all of GOD's spirits, as far as I can understand, although I could be wrong.
WHAT?? you are guessing and saying you could be wrong? I'm sorry, I thought you had a clear understanding that you were debating with. I will let you finish putting your understanding together before I debate you, because this only shows you just want to try to prove me wrong. If you have not at least put a plausible theory together, how can you KNOW if you are right or wrong?
I knew you would jump on this and thus brings out your flavoured reluctnacy. Anyhow, I am not trying to prove you wrong, but you are certainly and definitely ARE WRONG, as per many of your contradictory/twisting posts, whether you like it or not. The problem is, you hesitate to admit. Just because of not being certain about the ?THEY? in a specific verse, doesn?t jeopardize oneself from understanding other verses or the entire Quran.
Now, also, I do know that the "THEY" could go either way, i.e. angels/spirits/all. Regardless of what 'THEY" are, one thing is for certain, Iblis was NOT an angel but a jinn, as per the Quran. This also tells us that there were jinns already there, apart from angels, thus Iblis being one. Besides angels, the Quran also talks about other spirits in heavens ( 7338, 974).
I really don't care who "THEY" were, as long as one understands that the Quran is clear and explicit on who Iblis was and who the angels are. That's the crux of the matter. Once understood, other verses come together.
The verse say that the malaika were ordered, there is no mention of any "all" or "spirits", only "malaika".
Neither does the verse or anywhere in the Quran does it say that Iblis was a malaika. Listen, understand, reason and ponder upon other verses of the Quran where sufficient information is given about jinns and malaika. No need to bring confusion and chaos by cherry-picking.
Sister, does that really sit comfortably with you? Be honest. There is no way possible you can make "malaika" into all whole group of assembled "spirits" (whatever that is). The verse say as clear as day that the God commanded the "malaika", is this true or false?
The way I understand, it is also not possible for an angel to become a jinn. Again, reason and understand. The way I vision Al-Quran, is simple and clear, but not easy.
We are here because "iblis" reprents something within ALL OF US. Do you think we are here paying for the sinsof a man named Adam and a Woman named Eve(this reading only says his wife)? When you realize that one does not pay for anothers sins, you will see that the story of Adam and his wife represents the fall of each and every one of us. Likewise. "iblis" is a charateristic that all of us have fallen into in the past, and some continue to listen to the whisperer.
The two bolds above contradict each other. I slightly have a different vision though but GOD knows what really happened back then.
Thanks for showing the same respect I showed you, speaks volumes.
Pleasure. Only if you got off your lazy butt and looked back. To me, that speaks volumes.
- What, in full deatail, are the following concepts to YOU? ( Jinn, malaika, shaytaan, iblis)
I believe the jinns and malaika are creatures, Iblis is a name and shaytaan is a term.
What are these creatures, please tell us more about them and how they effect our lives.
Everything has been explained in detail throughout this forum. Further, my answers presented via Quranic understanding don?t seem to do you any good. Therefore, read the Quran and it'll detail you with everything you need to know. Besides, since you've no further interest to debate or more so lack of understanding, I rather suggest you grasp the Quranic injunctions/message properly to give you the precise knowledge that you are seeking. Ofcourse, I believe no one is perfectly and accurately attuned to Quranic understanding and we all have our ups and downs. If you can understand it, then fine. If not, then please don?t start alluding away from what the Quran is explicit about by injecting and dwelling on what is not. I, in the meantime, shall study your analysis further, given the answers by others as well, relevant to the Quran and natural effects.
In fact, save it. I have no further intrest to debate you until you get a theory that you think is solid, THEN we can test our theories against each other and one will naturally stand out and each can choose as they may. Until then, this is only a game to you. YOu don't even show at least equal respect to answer the questions I gave even when I repeated my answers for you.
I don't like to parrot or become repetitious, specially when talking to an adult acting like a child and having an egoistic, evasive, unrelenting and twisting thoughts who hesitates to admit that he is wrong..
Like I stated, when one is alone on stage it gets a little more difiicult.
Many are pretty good at it, with ease.
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Peace Kyle,
In 230, 711 & 1528, who, what or which ?controlled thoughts? GOD is talking to, before HE even created us?
In 298, who are Gabriel and Michael? Are these the names of some ?control thoughts??
In 2102, who are Haroot and Maroot? Are these the names of more or some other ?control thoughts??
In 2210, how would ?controlled thoughts? descend from above along with GOD, when, according to you, we as humans, possess controlled/uncontrolled thoughts, existing on earth? Who or Which ?controlled thoughts? GOD is talking about in the heavens other than HIMSELF, that would descend down on earth along with GOD and the whole matter would be terminated?
In 2285, the messengers or prophets of GOD, who already possess controlled thoughts, why are they ordered to believe in other ?controlled thoughts? in heaven? Are there different categories or species of ?controlled thoughts? that one must believe in or reject?
In 2248, what is being carried by ?controlled thoughts??
In 380, how does one idolize a ?controlled thought? as Lord, yet become disbelievers, knowing that the very ?controlled thought? belongs to GOD?
In 3124 & 125, how does 3,000/5000 ?controlled thoughts? support the already supported believers?
In 497, how do ?controlled thoughts? terminate ones lives?
In 68, GOD says that if HE had sent down a ?controlled thought?, the whole matter would have been terminated. Has the matter been terminated in yours or mine?s case, since we have them here on earth?
In 68, can a ?controlled thought? become or change into a man?
In 650 &1131, why is a ?controlled thought? not a ?controlled thought?
In 693, how do ?controlled thoughts? extend their hands to snatch away souls?
In 6111, what kind of ?controlled thoughts? are those which cannot control, specially when they are controlled by GOD Himself? Are you defying GOD's Power?
In 720, it seems that the ?controlled thought? was already in place, but because another ?controlled thought? who became ?uncontrolled?, doesn?t want a ?controlled thought? to become a ?controlled thought?? Perhaps you might have some difficulty understanding this.
In 89, how is someone on earth who is imploring GOD, supported with 1,000 ?controlled thoughts? from above to get rescued? What are these ?controlled thoughts? above called?
In 812, how does GOD inspire ?controlled thoughts? to support the already ?controlled thoughts??
In 850 & 4727, how does ?controlled thoughts? put someone to death and beat them on their faces and rear-ends?
In 1231, how is ?controlled thought? not a human being?
In 1740, why is the verse talking about GOD giving males/boys to humans while keeping female/daughters as ?controlled thoughts? to HIMSELF? Don?t the males have ?controlled thoughts?? This would be really interesting?
In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by ?controlled thoughts?, what would be the point of sending a ?controlled thought? from above as messenger?
In 1850 & 20116, a ?controlled thought? becomes uncontrolled.
In 2275, why are there two distinct species, one from among ?controlled thoughts? as messengers and another from among people as messengers?
In 351, why are ?controlled thoughts? said to be messengers with wings?
In 37150, did GOD create ?controlled thoughts? as females?
In 4114, weren?t the messengers having controlled thoughts not enough?
In 4319, how is it that the claim made on ?controlled thoughts? to become servants as females?
In 4360, how do ?controlled thoughts? colonize and reproduce?
In 5337, how are ?controlled thoughts? given feminine names?
In 7338 & 974, the verse mentions spirits and angels? If angels mean ?controlled thoughts?, what do spirits mean? How is that angels and spirits are mentioned together, likewise humans and jinns?
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PEACE IDOL
PREIST Did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?
IDOL Yes. but then of course they would not be described tha that time as "messengers". For example, Moses killed a man, is that obeying the God?
PREIST You see, this is why Danish and I cannot take you seriously. First, you slander Allah's malaika and now you slander the Messengers. When will your folly finally run its course...when you slander Allah outright? The question put to you was..."did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?". You answered "yes", knowing full well that that isn't true. Moses, was not a Messenger at the time he slew that individual, now was he?, hence, he did not disobey Allah. Please rescind your "yes" answer, unless, you want to continue to slander Allah's Messengers.
My concern is not if you and Danish take me seriously, I only debate you for those gathered who are witnessing this debate. If you are not satisfied with Moses example, what about Jonah?
You need to rescind your suggestion that, Moses, disobeyed Allah, please do so. Jonah, without doubt, was a Messenger, however, he did not disobey Allah's command to address his people. If he disobeyed Allah, please post the ayat where Allah says that.
If you could only understand what this means then we would not have to continue this debate. "Messenger" is a description of one who delivers the message, if one of them disobeys, they are not messangers, juts like if a submitter(muslim) disobeys they are no longer a submitter until they turn back to the God.
(567) You, you the messenger deliver/inform what was descended to you from your Lord, and if you did not make/do (that) so you did not reach (pass) His message, and The God protects/shelters you from the people, that God does not guide the nation, the disbelieving.
What do you get from the above verse, do you see the potential for one to disobey? Why else would thier be the warning? Please answer.
Idol, potential be damned, the question before you and this forum is...did any of the Messengers ACTUALLY disobey to carry out Allah's command to them, YES or NO?
Main Entry ACTUAL existing in fact or reality not false or apparent.
PREIST 4. Is Al-Quran, The Book, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?
IDOL There is no book titled "al QURAN", there is only the God's truthful words, which are from time to time written on pages.
PREIST You see, how you continue to play games? You know exactly what is being asked of you here. Anyway, let me re-phrase then. The ayats from Al-Fatihah to Al-Nas, are they doubtful things, can they be doubted?
The christians doubt them so I have to say yes.
???? Oh, I see, because the Christians doubt Allah's Quran, you are going to collude with their shirk and kufr, is that your position? If so, then, your position, NOT YOU, is flagrantly hypocritical, pure and simple, because Allah says this
22 This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
Now, who, do you believe...Allah or the Christians?
PREIST Btw, the sun doesn't rise or set anywhere, it is the earths rotation on its axis which gives impression that the sun rises and sets, however, the sun is 91 million miles removed for the earth and it is not going up and down in the sky. Do you see how perceptions can be faulty? It is the same at 234, that is, your perception is faulty and it only appears that Iblis was one of the malaika. Thanks for an excellent example on faulty perception.
Its good to see you did not fall asleep in science class like you did grammar (EXCEPTIONS). Your argument is steadily falling apart. You stoop to the level of trying to imply I am not aware that the earth rotates around the sun. I wonder if you will charge Abraham with the same faulty perception.
I have to wonder, regarding Abraham and Dhul Qarnain, if those ayats are properly translated. It would seen incongruous of Allah, to use rising and setting, given the fact, that isn't the reality of things.
My God, is there no end to your pride ? Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans! My God, man, listen to yourself, dude. If the malaika can disobey and the Messengers can disobey, then, how can Allah say to HAVE COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide?
Yes,malaika do not disobey excpet IBLIS.
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"Yes, malaika, do not disobey"
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"except IBLIS"
Can't you even recognize a simple contradiction, My God, what is wrong with you?!
Just make sure your thoughts are from the God, not from your own rebellious desires and you will be fine. Regarding messengers, just verify the message they bring and you will be fine. That way you only have to rely on your own intellect, and will not stand before the Most High trying to blame someone else.
What are you talking about?!
PREIST For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a shaitan
We are to have faith in malaika, not shayteen. When a malaika disobeys, it becomes a shayteen. We have faith in malaika, not shayteen. Why cant you understand this?
Does Allah tell you to have faith in shaitans?!? what ayat are you reading?! Allah, tells you to have faith, that is, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST in Him, His Malaika, His Book, and His Messengers!!!
IDOL, it is clear to me and, I'm sure to any other believer here that, your position, NOT YOU, but your position/arguement, is kufr, munafiq, and shaitanic one and here's why
2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
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You've claimed that, Allah's Messenger, Yunus, disobeyed, when clearly he did not. This is EGREGIOUS SLANDER.
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You've claimed that, Allah's angels, are capable of disobedience and, at least one did. This is EGREGIOUS SLANDER.
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You've called Allah, a liar, because Allah said to have total faith in Him, meaning that, whatever He tells you in Al-Quran, is the absolute and invioable truth, yet, you stated "The christians doubt them so I have to say yes". Further, Allah, says to have faith, that is, complete/total in Him, His Malaika, His Quran, and His Messenger, yet, your position is that Allah's Quran is doubtful, one of the Messengers disobeyed Him and one of the Malaika disobeyed Him.
My question to you, which you didn't answer was, how can Allah, tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust? 4122...and who is truer of word than Allah? What is Allah, calling man to have faith in then, if what He is telling man to have faith in is going to betray him?? Don't you realize that your position/arguement is, calling Allah a liar??? This is EGREGIOUS SLANDER.
Once you rejected 2177, 4136 and 4122, you proved for all to see that, you have absolutely no regard for the truth, you own soul or anyone else's souls, to possiblly risk misleading them with your totally un-Quranic arguement.
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PEACE JM
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans!
Quote
Salam, I don?t see what is the problem here.The rule is Malaika are not arrogant, and don?t disobey to the commands of God.
No, JM, it isn't the rule that the malaika do not disobey or show arrogance, it is Allah's law that they do not disobey or show arrogance, to wit
1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
You see, JM, the above verse has no exceptions to it, it is an unqualified statement from Allah. The "angels" and the "animals" of the earth cannot disobey Allah or show arrogance...it is simply not in their created nature.
Peace PB,
You should consider the whole quran, an not take a single verse apart and try to conform the rest of the quran to it.
As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception.
But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .You should consider reading my posts before making such ignorant suggestions. I quoted 234, 1649, 1650, 1850, 2177, 4122, 4136, what are you talking about?!
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote
Quote
The fact is Iblis disobeyed to the command of prostratingYes, it is a fact that Iblis disobeyed a direct command, however, it was not because he was of the malaika creation, but of the Jinn creation
Are you sure there exists a special kind of beings named jinns ?
I don?t.The word jinn is just a characteristic of Iblis , like the word kuffar (rejecter) in .
And the fact he has been created from fire symbolises its fiery (arrogant) nature.The fire is commonly used as a symbol in the Quran, like here
Surely, those who conceal what God has sent down of the Scripture, and they purchase with it a cheap price; they will not eat in their stomachs except the Fire, and God will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they will have a painful retribution.
And this verse does not mean that they will be literally eating fire. It is symbolism.
Creation of man with clay is symbolism too, of his malleability (his ability to learn). This is detailed in .
The Jinn, are homo sapien sapiens, period.
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote
and they were given the ability to choose to obey or disobey,
Can you give the verse that show that ?
721 Say It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn listened, and they said Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran,
7211 And that some of us are good and others of us are below that we are sects following different ways
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote
If Iblis were a malaika, then, as with him, all of the malaika were created of a scorching wind/fire and nowhere does Allah mention the basic composition of the malaika.
Right, Allah does not mention the basic composition of the malaika?
So, why do you deem it is not possible that Iblis was a special malaika created from fire ??. A fact that should not imply that all malaika share the same composition
?LOL!! Oh, now, Iblis, is a "special kind of malaika", you are unbelievable. How about this instead..."Iblis, was of the Jinn"--1850
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote
Quote
So, according to the rule above, he ceased to be a malaika (he was disgraced, cf ) I see no inconsistency here.How can he cease to be something, which Allah never labelled/defined him as such? You and Idol, are simply extrapolating that he was a malaika, however, nowhere, does Allah say that for a fact.
So? How do you understand the disgracing of Iblis ?
What does it mean for you ?
Why was he expected to obey and not to be arrogant (if he, as you say, had been given the ability to disobey) ?
What did he lose, due to his arrogant attitude ?Iblis, a homo sapien sapien, just like Adam, refused to submit to the leadership of Adam, hence, Iblis, refused to obey Allah's command to obey Adam.
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote
Quote
It is clear that Iblis was ?expected? not to be arrogant, and to obey to the command of God (to prostrate before Adam). He was ?expected? that because before that event he was a malaika.While it is true that, Iblis, was expected to obey Allah's caommand, it was not because he was of the malaika, but he knew if the malaika had to obey, then, who was he not to.
That?s just conjecture?
Assuming Iblis was not a malaika, what was he doing with them ?
How did he knew that he had to obey ?
Why were God surprised he did not obey to a command given to the malaika ?I just answered this above.
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PEACE IDOL AND /JM/
I would like you to answer these questions
1.) 1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
DANISH In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by ?controlled thoughts?, what would be the point of sending a ?controlled thought? from above as messenger?
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobey Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
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PEACE IDOL AND /JM/
I would like you to answer these questions
1.) 1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
DANISH In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by controlled thoughts, what would be the point of sending a controlled thought from above as messenger?
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobey Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
Salam PB,
Here is the big picture of the story of creation of man as I understand it.
First, I consider malaika to be all the forces (not beings) subjected to carry the divine will.
The natural forces that cause the natural phenomena like the planets, the see, the wind, the life are malaika.
http//www.toluislam.com/pub_online/exposition/glossary_m_to_n.htm#_Toc428590267Before the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride.
The malaika that are earthly natural forces are the vicegerents of the divine will on earth.
Iblis is one of them.At the creation of man
God announce to the malaika his intention to create man
And your Lord said to the Angels I am placing a successor on Earth. They said Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You? He said I know what you do not know.
All the malaika seem to be doubtful.
Then God explains them Adam (the man) will be superior to them
And He taught Adam the description of all things, then He displayed them to the Angels and said Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful.
They said Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise.
He said O Adam, inform them of the description of these, so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding?Knowledge of the name = faculty of abstraction => conscience => free will
And We said to the Angels Submit to Adam, so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
All the angels acknowledge the superiority of Adam save Iblis.
After the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).The man has free will he has the ability to choose to obey or disobey to the commands of god.
Obviously it is the will of God he can (because God is his creator).There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
To obey to God = To follow the commands of God = to believe (yumin) in God= to become a beleiver (momin)
To disobey to God = to believe (yakfur) in Shaitan (Iblis) = to follow Shaitan = to become a rejecter (kafir)Summary
Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path.
Who is Iblis ?
I think Iblis is the psychological force that leads living creatures to dominate the others (in the same specie), to reproduce more. If Iblis works into animals, no problem it is the will of God. But, if Iblis works into the human, it leads him to arrogance, selfishness, wickednessNow, this situation will not change, and there will not be any other malaika that will rebel. They all have been subjected to human. So, you can confidently have faith in them.
Hope it is clear (please apologize for my bad English)
Peace,
JM -
Peace PB,
You should consider the whole quran, an not take a single verse apart and try to conform the rest of the quran to it.
As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception.
But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .You should consider reading my posts before making such ignorant suggestions. I quoted 234, 1649, 1650, 1850, 2177, 4122, 4136, what are you talking about?!
The fact is the Quran must be understood as a whole.
You cannot pick 1 verse (ou 2, or 3, or 10… and fit the rest to it.
Do you agree with that principle ? Or not ?Are you sure there exists a special kind of beings named jinns ?
I dont.The word jinn is just a characteristic of Iblis , like the word kuffar (rejecter) in .
And the fact he has been created from fire symbolises its fiery (arrogant) nature.The fire is commonly used as a symbol in the Quran, like here
Surely, those who conceal what God has sent down of the Scripture, and they purchase with it a cheap price; they will not eat in their stomachs except the Fire, and God will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they will have a painful retribution.
And this verse does not mean that they will be literally eating fire. It is symbolism.
Creation of man with clay is symbolism too, of his malleability (his ability to learn). This is detailed in .
The Jinn, are homo sapien sapiens, period.
You cannot say the Jinn are human ; nor more you can say the Kuffar are human.
The word Jinn, and Kuffar are qualifiers In some verses of the Quran (like in surah 72, 6), they qualify human.. But This doesnt prove that Iblis/Satan/The devil is a human.
If Iblis/Satan/The devil were a human, he should be dead, today (and at the time of Mohamed) ? Do you think he really is ?and they were given the ability to choose to obey or disobey,
Can you give the verse that show that ?
721 Say It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn listened, and they said Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran,
7211 And that some of us are good and others of us are below that we are sects following different ways
I agree with you that humans have free will.
But Iblis/Satan/The divil does not; because it is a force (like the malaika) ; not a human.If Iblis were a malaika, then, as with him, all of the malaika were created of a scorching wind/fire and nowhere does Allah mention the basic composition of the malaika.
Right, Allah does not mention the basic composition of the malaika
So, why do you deem it is not possible that Iblis was a special malaika created from fire ?. A fact that should not imply that all malaika share the same compositionLOL!! Oh, now, Iblis, is a "special kind of malaika", you are unbelievable. How about this instead..."Iblis, was of the Jinn"--1850
I see no problem with that.
No more than with
But not Iblis he was proud and he was one of the unbelievers (kuffar).So, according to the rule above, he ceased to be a malaika (he was disgraced, cf ) I see no inconsistency here.
How can he cease to be something, which Allah never labelled/defined him as such? You and Idol, are simply extrapolating that he was a malaika, however, nowhere, does Allah say that for a fact.
So How do you understand the disgracing of Iblis ?
What does it mean for you ?
Why was he expected to obey and not to be arrogant (if he, as you say, had been given the ability to disobey) ?
What did he lose, due to his arrogant attitude ?Iblis, a homo sapien sapien, just like Adam, refused to submit to the leadership of Adam, hence, Iblis, refused to obey Allah's command to obey Adam.
Im sorry, but you are not answering to my questions.
Can you try again ?It is clear that Iblis was expected not to be arrogant, and to obey to the command of God (to prostrate before Adam). He was expected that because before that event he was a malaika.
While it is true that, Iblis, was expected to obey Allah's caommand, it was not because he was of the malaika, but he knew if the malaika had to obey, then, who was he not to.
Thats just conjecture
Assuming Iblis was not a malaika, what was he doing with them ?
How did he knew that he had to obey ?
Why were God surprised he did not obey to a command given to the malaika ?I just answered this above.
No, you did not answer
Assuming Iblis was a human ; what was he doing with the malaika before the creation of the human race ????Peace,
JM -
Peace JM,
Here is the big picture of the story of creation of man as I understand it.
Your BIG picture contains BIG contradictions and BIG conjectures. Here?s one in bold
Before the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc?) can disobey to the will of god.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride.
The malaika that are earthly natural forces are the vicegerents of the divine will on earth.
Iblis is one of them.After the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc?) can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).Summary
Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path.Did the animals, plants, etc, (whatever the etceteras are) exist in the heavens or before the creation of man? Whether before or after the creation of man, you admittedly confess that the malaika never disobey nor show pride and then later, insistently and arrogantly deny the very fact. Is your understanding that appalling or you post just for the fun of it?
Here?s another one of your BIG pictures containing contradiction/conjecture
All the angels acknowledge the superiority of Adam save Iblis.
True, but that does not make Iblis an angel, given that Iblis was a jinn, not a malaika, as per verse 234.
All the malaika seem to be doubtful.
None of the malaika were doubtful, simply because they never disobey nor show arrogance. Besides they all submitted to the command of Allah.
As per your weird understanding, all the angels acknowledge the superiority of Adam and yet all the malaika are doubtful, another contradiction/conjecture. Thirdly, sometimes you bring about the ?angels? and sometimes ?malaika?, yet you believe that malaika are some kind of ?psychological forces?, to confuse and twist the discussion. Man, your clear cut muddles are worse than others.
Who is Iblis ?
I think Iblis is the psychological force that leads living creatures to dominate the others (in the same specie), to reproduce more.The name Iblis has become a ?psychological force? and so has Adam, jinns have become ?uncontrolled thoughts? and the malaika have become ?controlled thoughts or those thoughts?. Please do me a favour, collect all the verses of the Quran containing the words Iblis, shaytaan, jinn, malaika, insaan, and study them thoroughly by replacing them with the meanings for what you think they are and then see if they make any sense.
If Iblis works into animals, no problem it is the will of God. But, if Iblis works into the human, it leads him to arrogance, selfishness, wickedness? Now, this situation will not change, and there will not be any other malaika that will rebel. They all have been subjected to human. So, you can confidently have faith in them.
I must say, what darn idiotic statements you bring about. You are very weak in solving problems.
Finally, I believe that every word in the Quran must bear the same meanings throughout, only then the Quran can be read consistently, precisely and coherently. As soon as one gives multiple meanings to any word in the Quran, confusion, chaos, inconsistencies and improper understanding of not just the word itself but the entire passage becomes apparently dysfunctional and irresolute (see verse 37). For example, it would be dubious to say that zakaat means purity at one place and 2.5% tithe at another. The same goes with salaat, meaning commitments/obligations and not learning processes, ritual prayers, assembles or what have you, to fit them here and there as you like. GOD's Words must be taken seriously, carefully, consistently and diligently. Hence meant for those who are sincere, intelligent, understand and reason with.
Personally, I do not understand the Ramadan and the fasting issues and I am currently studying them. Henceforth, I ask questions (see Hijab section) and hesitate to frivilously debate them until I am clear, or perhaps someone else who could bring about a clear understanding, GOD Willing.
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Hey there PRIEST_BOKMEI, Salaams,
My appologies for not addressing to you earlier. Some of the muddling and irresolute effects presented on this thread and elsewhere took me by surprise, and ah yes, ?the pounding on the walls? extraordinary. ops
LOLx10! My god, I've haven't laughed so hard for so long in quite awhile as I did tonight reading your replys to Idol. Man, not only are your comments decisive/poignant, but you are absolutely hilarious.
I am glad you enjoyed it. Keep up the memorabilia, it adds to ones face value. I, too, couldn't discount the session, as in
LOL! You've defined Iblis as a malaika, a Jinn, a thought, and a dabbatin! Left to you, soon, he will be a N. Y. Yankee!
lolHope to see more of you, GOD willing, on other topics.
GOD bless.
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PEACE IDOL AND /JM/
All I want is for you and Idol, to answer, logically and coherently, the following
1.) 1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
DANISH In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by controlled thoughts, what would be the point of sending a controlled thought from above as messenger?
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobeyed Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
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PEACE JM
STATEMENT#1. No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
STATEMENT#2. Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
STATEMENT#3. Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path. I agree with you that humans have free will. But Iblis/Satan/The divil does not; because it is a force (like the malaika)
Now, in statements 1 and 2, you clam that, the animals, plants, etc, and the malaika, never disobey Allah.
Now, in statement 3, you claim that, Iblis, a malaika, who, unlike man, and like the other malaika, has no free will, yet, he makes the CHOICE, a function of free will, to disobey Allah, which, in statements 1and 2, you said that he couldn't do, and becomes a shaitan. If he didn't make a choice, then how does he cease to be a maliaka? Certainly, you can see how absolutely and utterly contradictory your entire position is.
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).
How could man succeed the malaika on earth when Allah says the following
1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
No, JM, man came to succeed the Jinn, who, were created before man.
Who is Iblis ? I think Iblis is...If Iblis works...if Iblis works
First you ask, "who is Iblis", as if you know the answer and then you follow up with..."I think" and "If". This is hardly evidence of anything, JM. All you've offered here is conjecture.
Now, this situation will not change, and there will not be any other malaika that will rebel. They all have been subjected to human. So, you can confidently have faith in them.
Jm, tell me, where do you get this from?! How do you know that no other malaika will rebel, did Allah, personally tell you this or did all of the malaika tell you this? Please post Allah's ayats where He gives this guarantee that, no more malaika will rebel. Your word is just not sufficient. Nothing personal.
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PEACE DANISH
What has been made obvious by these discussions is that, the more one wishes to go against Allah's clear evidence, the more contradictory, confused, and...bizarre that individual must become. Some of the stuff we've read here, you just can't make it up.
May Allah keep us in good contact.
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Peace JM,
Paece Danish
Here is the big picture of the story of creation of man as I understand it.
Your BIG picture contains BIG contradictions and BIG conjectures. Heres one in bold
Before the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride.
The malaika that are earthly natural forces are the vicegerents of the divine will on earth.
Iblis is one of them.After the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).Summary
Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path.Did the animals, plants, etc, (whatever the etceteras are) exist in the heavens or before the creation of man?
Yes, there were animals, plants on earth before the creation of man.
Do you deny that ?.Whether before or after the creation of man, you admittedly confess that the malaika never disobey nor show pride and then later, insistently and arrogantly deny the very fact. Is your understanding that appalling or you post just for the fun of it?
At the creation of man, one malaika (Iblis) disobeyed and showed pride.
He then immediately be disgraced and lost his status of Malaika.
He said Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced.Heres another one of your BIG pictures containing contradiction/conjecture
All the angels acknowledge the superiority of Adam save Iblis.
True, but that does not make Iblis an angel, given that Iblis was a jinn, not a malaika, as per verse 234.
The word jinn is just here to qualify Iblis. Like the word kafir in .
What is a jinn, for you ? A human being ?All the malaika seem to be doubtful.
None of the malaika were doubtful, simply because they never disobey nor show arrogance. Besides they all submitted to the command of Allah.
How do you understand , then ?
And your Lord said to the Maliaka I am placing a successor on Earth. They said Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You? He said I know what you do not know.As per your weird understanding, all the angels acknowledge the superiority of Adam and yet all the malaika are doubtful, another contradiction/conjecture.
Since they are doubtful, God asks Adam to show them its superiority ; and then, they all acknowledge it, except Iblis .
Thirdly, sometimes you bring about the angels and sometimes malaika, yet you believe that malaika are some kind of psychological forces, to confuse and twist the discussion. Man, your clear cut muddles are worse than others.
Sorry for the confusion.
I should have not used the word angelsFinally, I believe that every word in the Quran must bear the same meanings throughout, only then the Quran can be read consistently, precisely and coherently. As soon as one gives multiple meanings to any word in the Quran, confusion, chaos, inconsistencies and improper understanding of not just the word itself but the entire passage becomes apparently dysfunctional and irresolute (see verse 37). For example, it would be dubious to say that zakaat means purity at one place and 2.5% tithe at another. The same goes with salaat, meaning commitments/obligations and not learning processes, ritual prayers, assembles or what have you, to fit them here and there as you like. GOD's Words must be taken seriously, carefully, consistently and diligently. Hence meant for those who are sincere, intelligent, understand and reason with.
Thats not the way the Quran works.
Every word has multiple meanings, and we should use the context (other verses) to choose the good meaning.PEACE JM
Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI
STATEMENT#1. No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
STATEMENT#2. Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
STATEMENT#3. Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path. I agree with you that humans have free will. But Iblis/Satan/The divil does not; because it is a force (like the malaika)
Now, in statements 1 and 2, you clam that, the animals, plants, etc, and the malaika, never disobey Allah.
Now, in statement 3, you claim that, Iblis, a malaika, who, unlike man, and like the other malaika, has no free will, yet, he makes the CHOICE, a function of free will, to disobey Allah, which, in statements 1and 2, you said that he couldn't do, and becomes a shaitan.
No, it is not a CHOICE.
I never said that.If he didn't make a choice, then how does he cease to be a maliaka? Certainly, you can see how absolutely and utterly contradictory your entire position is.
He ceased to be a malaika because God decided he did not deserve it any more, and disgraced him.
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).
How could man succeed the malaika on earth when Allah says the following
1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
follows .
And what stopped the people from believing when the guidance came to them, except that they said Has God sent a human messenger?
Men were surprised the messenger of God was a human, like them, and not a special being (like an angel, in their superstitions).
Then, in , God answers them you are human, so I am sending you a human messenger.No, JM, man came to succeed the Jinn, who, were created before man.
I cannot understand that.
You said me Iblis was a human How could he have been created before the human were ????Who is Iblis ? I think Iblis is...If Iblis works...if Iblis works
First you ask, "who is Iblis", as if you know the answer and then you follow up with..."I think" and "If". This is hardly evidence of anything, JM. All you've offered here is conjecture.
We have to be humble.
Only God really knows the unseen.Now, this situation will not change, and there will not be any other malaika that will rebel. They all have been subjected to human. So, you can confidently have faith in them.
Jm, tell me, where do you get this from?! How do you know that no other malaika will rebel, did Allah, personally tell you this or did all of the malaika tell you this? Please post Allah's ayats where He gives this guarantee that, no more malaika will rebel. Your word is just not sufficient. Nothing personal.
All angels have submitted to Adam (save Iblis, who became the devil).
Since they have submitted, they will not rebel.
If we should have to expect their rebellion, God would have said it in the Quran, which is a complete book.Peace
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PEACE IDOL AND /JM/
All I want is for you and Idol, to answer, logically and coherently, the following
1.) 1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
DANISH In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by controlled thoughts, what would be the point of sending a controlled thought from above as messenger?
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobeyed Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
Peace PB,
Some of these questions address to Idolfree, and I have answered those that address to me.
Please do not forget to answer the following questions
- About the nature of Iblis
If Iblis/Satan/The devil were a human, he should be dead, today (and at the time of Mohamed) ? Do you think he really is ?
- About
He said Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced.
So How do you understand the disgracing of Iblis ?
What does it mean for you ?
Why was he expected to obey and not to be arrogant (if he, as you say, had been given the ability to disobey) ?
What did he lose, due to his arrogant attitude ?- About
And We said to the Angels Submit to Adam. So they all submitted except for Satan, he was of the Jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord.
Assuming Iblis was not a malaika, what was he doing with them ?
Assuming Iblis was a human ; what was he doing with the malaika before the creation of the human race ????
How did he knew that he had to obey ?
Why were God surprised he did not obey to a command given to the malaika ?Please give, as I did, your own "big picture" of the story of Adam / Iblis
Peace,
JM -
Peace be upon you PB,
Quote
My concern is not if you and Danish take me seriously, I only debate you for those gathered who are witnessing this debate. If you are not satisfied with Moses example, what about Jonah?You need to rescind your suggestion that, Moses, disobeyed Allah, please do so. Jonah, without doubt, was a Messenger, however, he did not disobey Allah's command to address his people. If he disobeyed Allah, please post the ayat where Allah says that.
Are you serious? What is the lesson you get from the story of Jonah?