WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...
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PEACE IDOL
PREIST Did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?
IDOL Yes. but then of course they would not be described tha that time as "messengers". For example, Moses killed a man, is that obeying the God?
PREIST You see, this is why Danish and I cannot take you seriously. First, you slander Allah's malaika and now you slander the Messengers. When will your folly finally run its course...when you slander Allah outright? The question put to you was..."did any Messengers say/do doubtful things or fail to obey Allah?". You answered "yes", knowing full well that that isn't true. Moses, was not a Messenger at the time he slew that individual, now was he?, hence, he did not disobey Allah. Please rescind your "yes" answer, unless, you want to continue to slander Allah's Messengers.
My concern is not if you and Danish take me seriously, I only debate you for those gathered who are witnessing this debate. If you are not satisfied with Moses example, what about Jonah?
You need to rescind your suggestion that, Moses, disobeyed Allah, please do so. Jonah, without doubt, was a Messenger, however, he did not disobey Allah's command to address his people. If he disobeyed Allah, please post the ayat where Allah says that.
If you could only understand what this means then we would not have to continue this debate. "Messenger" is a description of one who delivers the message, if one of them disobeys, they are not messangers, juts like if a submitter(muslim) disobeys they are no longer a submitter until they turn back to the God.
(567) You, you the messenger deliver/inform what was descended to you from your Lord, and if you did not make/do (that) so you did not reach (pass) His message, and The God protects/shelters you from the people, that God does not guide the nation, the disbelieving.
What do you get from the above verse, do you see the potential for one to disobey? Why else would thier be the warning? Please answer.
Idol, potential be damned, the question before you and this forum is...did any of the Messengers ACTUALLY disobey to carry out Allah's command to them, YES or NO?
Main Entry ACTUAL existing in fact or reality not false or apparent.
PREIST 4. Is Al-Quran, The Book, a doubtful thing, can it be doubted?
IDOL There is no book titled "al QURAN", there is only the God's truthful words, which are from time to time written on pages.
PREIST You see, how you continue to play games? You know exactly what is being asked of you here. Anyway, let me re-phrase then. The ayats from Al-Fatihah to Al-Nas, are they doubtful things, can they be doubted?
The christians doubt them so I have to say yes.
???? Oh, I see, because the Christians doubt Allah's Quran, you are going to collude with their shirk and kufr, is that your position? If so, then, your position, NOT YOU, is flagrantly hypocritical, pure and simple, because Allah says this
22 This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
Now, who, do you believe...Allah or the Christians?
PREIST Btw, the sun doesn't rise or set anywhere, it is the earths rotation on its axis which gives impression that the sun rises and sets, however, the sun is 91 million miles removed for the earth and it is not going up and down in the sky. Do you see how perceptions can be faulty? It is the same at 234, that is, your perception is faulty and it only appears that Iblis was one of the malaika. Thanks for an excellent example on faulty perception.
Its good to see you did not fall asleep in science class like you did grammar (EXCEPTIONS). Your argument is steadily falling apart. You stoop to the level of trying to imply I am not aware that the earth rotates around the sun. I wonder if you will charge Abraham with the same faulty perception.
I have to wonder, regarding Abraham and Dhul Qarnain, if those ayats are properly translated. It would seen incongruous of Allah, to use rising and setting, given the fact, that isn't the reality of things.
My God, is there no end to your pride ? Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans! My God, man, listen to yourself, dude. If the malaika can disobey and the Messengers can disobey, then, how can Allah say to HAVE COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide?
Yes,malaika do not disobey excpet IBLIS.
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"Yes, malaika, do not disobey"
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"except IBLIS"
Can't you even recognize a simple contradiction, My God, what is wrong with you?!
Just make sure your thoughts are from the God, not from your own rebellious desires and you will be fine. Regarding messengers, just verify the message they bring and you will be fine. That way you only have to rely on your own intellect, and will not stand before the Most High trying to blame someone else.
What are you talking about?!
PREIST For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a shaitan
We are to have faith in malaika, not shayteen. When a malaika disobeys, it becomes a shayteen. We have faith in malaika, not shayteen. Why cant you understand this?
Does Allah tell you to have faith in shaitans?!? what ayat are you reading?! Allah, tells you to have faith, that is, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST in Him, His Malaika, His Book, and His Messengers!!!
IDOL, it is clear to me and, I'm sure to any other believer here that, your position, NOT YOU, but your position/arguement, is kufr, munafiq, and shaitanic one and here's why
2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
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You've claimed that, Allah's Messenger, Yunus, disobeyed, when clearly he did not. This is EGREGIOUS SLANDER.
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You've claimed that, Allah's angels, are capable of disobedience and, at least one did. This is EGREGIOUS SLANDER.
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You've called Allah, a liar, because Allah said to have total faith in Him, meaning that, whatever He tells you in Al-Quran, is the absolute and invioable truth, yet, you stated "The christians doubt them so I have to say yes". Further, Allah, says to have faith, that is, complete/total in Him, His Malaika, His Quran, and His Messenger, yet, your position is that Allah's Quran is doubtful, one of the Messengers disobeyed Him and one of the Malaika disobeyed Him.
My question to you, which you didn't answer was, how can Allah, tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust? 4122...and who is truer of word than Allah? What is Allah, calling man to have faith in then, if what He is telling man to have faith in is going to betray him?? Don't you realize that your position/arguement is, calling Allah a liar??? This is EGREGIOUS SLANDER.
Once you rejected 2177, 4136 and 4122, you proved for all to see that, you have absolutely no regard for the truth, you own soul or anyone else's souls, to possiblly risk misleading them with your totally un-Quranic arguement.
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PEACE JM
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote Allah, clearly, in 1649-50 states that the malaika do not disobey, yet, you are going to say that, not only can and do disobey, but they can become shaitans!
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Salam, I don?t see what is the problem here.The rule is Malaika are not arrogant, and don?t disobey to the commands of God.
No, JM, it isn't the rule that the malaika do not disobey or show arrogance, it is Allah's law that they do not disobey or show arrogance, to wit
1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
You see, JM, the above verse has no exceptions to it, it is an unqualified statement from Allah. The "angels" and the "animals" of the earth cannot disobey Allah or show arrogance...it is simply not in their created nature.
Peace PB,
You should consider the whole quran, an not take a single verse apart and try to conform the rest of the quran to it.
As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception.
But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .You should consider reading my posts before making such ignorant suggestions. I quoted 234, 1649, 1650, 1850, 2177, 4122, 4136, what are you talking about?!
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote
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The fact is Iblis disobeyed to the command of prostratingYes, it is a fact that Iblis disobeyed a direct command, however, it was not because he was of the malaika creation, but of the Jinn creation
Are you sure there exists a special kind of beings named jinns ?
I don?t.The word jinn is just a characteristic of Iblis , like the word kuffar (rejecter) in .
And the fact he has been created from fire symbolises its fiery (arrogant) nature.The fire is commonly used as a symbol in the Quran, like here
Surely, those who conceal what God has sent down of the Scripture, and they purchase with it a cheap price; they will not eat in their stomachs except the Fire, and God will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they will have a painful retribution.
And this verse does not mean that they will be literally eating fire. It is symbolism.
Creation of man with clay is symbolism too, of his malleability (his ability to learn). This is detailed in .
The Jinn, are homo sapien sapiens, period.
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote
and they were given the ability to choose to obey or disobey,
Can you give the verse that show that ?
721 Say It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn listened, and they said Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran,
7211 And that some of us are good and others of us are below that we are sects following different ways
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote
If Iblis were a malaika, then, as with him, all of the malaika were created of a scorching wind/fire and nowhere does Allah mention the basic composition of the malaika.
Right, Allah does not mention the basic composition of the malaika?
So, why do you deem it is not possible that Iblis was a special malaika created from fire ??. A fact that should not imply that all malaika share the same composition
?LOL!! Oh, now, Iblis, is a "special kind of malaika", you are unbelievable. How about this instead..."Iblis, was of the Jinn"--1850
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote
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So, according to the rule above, he ceased to be a malaika (he was disgraced, cf ) I see no inconsistency here.How can he cease to be something, which Allah never labelled/defined him as such? You and Idol, are simply extrapolating that he was a malaika, however, nowhere, does Allah say that for a fact.
So? How do you understand the disgracing of Iblis ?
What does it mean for you ?
Why was he expected to obey and not to be arrogant (if he, as you say, had been given the ability to disobey) ?
What did he lose, due to his arrogant attitude ?Iblis, a homo sapien sapien, just like Adam, refused to submit to the leadership of Adam, hence, Iblis, refused to obey Allah's command to obey Adam.
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote
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It is clear that Iblis was ?expected? not to be arrogant, and to obey to the command of God (to prostrate before Adam). He was ?expected? that because before that event he was a malaika.While it is true that, Iblis, was expected to obey Allah's caommand, it was not because he was of the malaika, but he knew if the malaika had to obey, then, who was he not to.
That?s just conjecture?
Assuming Iblis was not a malaika, what was he doing with them ?
How did he knew that he had to obey ?
Why were God surprised he did not obey to a command given to the malaika ?I just answered this above.
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PEACE IDOL AND /JM/
I would like you to answer these questions
1.) 1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
DANISH In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by ?controlled thoughts?, what would be the point of sending a ?controlled thought? from above as messenger?
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobey Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
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PEACE IDOL AND /JM/
I would like you to answer these questions
1.) 1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
DANISH In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by controlled thoughts, what would be the point of sending a controlled thought from above as messenger?
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobey Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
Salam PB,
Here is the big picture of the story of creation of man as I understand it.
First, I consider malaika to be all the forces (not beings) subjected to carry the divine will.
The natural forces that cause the natural phenomena like the planets, the see, the wind, the life are malaika.
http//www.toluislam.com/pub_online/exposition/glossary_m_to_n.htm#_Toc428590267Before the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride.
The malaika that are earthly natural forces are the vicegerents of the divine will on earth.
Iblis is one of them.At the creation of man
God announce to the malaika his intention to create man
And your Lord said to the Angels I am placing a successor on Earth. They said Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You? He said I know what you do not know.
All the malaika seem to be doubtful.
Then God explains them Adam (the man) will be superior to them
And He taught Adam the description of all things, then He displayed them to the Angels and said Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful.
They said Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise.
He said O Adam, inform them of the description of these, so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding?Knowledge of the name = faculty of abstraction => conscience => free will
And We said to the Angels Submit to Adam, so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
All the angels acknowledge the superiority of Adam save Iblis.
After the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).The man has free will he has the ability to choose to obey or disobey to the commands of god.
Obviously it is the will of God he can (because God is his creator).There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
To obey to God = To follow the commands of God = to believe (yumin) in God= to become a beleiver (momin)
To disobey to God = to believe (yakfur) in Shaitan (Iblis) = to follow Shaitan = to become a rejecter (kafir)Summary
Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path.
Who is Iblis ?
I think Iblis is the psychological force that leads living creatures to dominate the others (in the same specie), to reproduce more. If Iblis works into animals, no problem it is the will of God. But, if Iblis works into the human, it leads him to arrogance, selfishness, wickednessNow, this situation will not change, and there will not be any other malaika that will rebel. They all have been subjected to human. So, you can confidently have faith in them.
Hope it is clear (please apologize for my bad English)
Peace,
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Peace PB,
You should consider the whole quran, an not take a single verse apart and try to conform the rest of the quran to it.
As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception.
But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .You should consider reading my posts before making such ignorant suggestions. I quoted 234, 1649, 1650, 1850, 2177, 4122, 4136, what are you talking about?!
The fact is the Quran must be understood as a whole.
You cannot pick 1 verse (ou 2, or 3, or 10… and fit the rest to it.
Do you agree with that principle ? Or not ?Are you sure there exists a special kind of beings named jinns ?
I dont.The word jinn is just a characteristic of Iblis , like the word kuffar (rejecter) in .
And the fact he has been created from fire symbolises its fiery (arrogant) nature.The fire is commonly used as a symbol in the Quran, like here
Surely, those who conceal what God has sent down of the Scripture, and they purchase with it a cheap price; they will not eat in their stomachs except the Fire, and God will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they will have a painful retribution.
And this verse does not mean that they will be literally eating fire. It is symbolism.
Creation of man with clay is symbolism too, of his malleability (his ability to learn). This is detailed in .
The Jinn, are homo sapien sapiens, period.
You cannot say the Jinn are human ; nor more you can say the Kuffar are human.
The word Jinn, and Kuffar are qualifiers In some verses of the Quran (like in surah 72, 6), they qualify human.. But This doesnt prove that Iblis/Satan/The devil is a human.
If Iblis/Satan/The devil were a human, he should be dead, today (and at the time of Mohamed) ? Do you think he really is ?and they were given the ability to choose to obey or disobey,
Can you give the verse that show that ?
721 Say It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn listened, and they said Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran,
7211 And that some of us are good and others of us are below that we are sects following different ways
I agree with you that humans have free will.
But Iblis/Satan/The divil does not; because it is a force (like the malaika) ; not a human.If Iblis were a malaika, then, as with him, all of the malaika were created of a scorching wind/fire and nowhere does Allah mention the basic composition of the malaika.
Right, Allah does not mention the basic composition of the malaika
So, why do you deem it is not possible that Iblis was a special malaika created from fire ?. A fact that should not imply that all malaika share the same compositionLOL!! Oh, now, Iblis, is a "special kind of malaika", you are unbelievable. How about this instead..."Iblis, was of the Jinn"--1850
I see no problem with that.
No more than with
But not Iblis he was proud and he was one of the unbelievers (kuffar).So, according to the rule above, he ceased to be a malaika (he was disgraced, cf ) I see no inconsistency here.
How can he cease to be something, which Allah never labelled/defined him as such? You and Idol, are simply extrapolating that he was a malaika, however, nowhere, does Allah say that for a fact.
So How do you understand the disgracing of Iblis ?
What does it mean for you ?
Why was he expected to obey and not to be arrogant (if he, as you say, had been given the ability to disobey) ?
What did he lose, due to his arrogant attitude ?Iblis, a homo sapien sapien, just like Adam, refused to submit to the leadership of Adam, hence, Iblis, refused to obey Allah's command to obey Adam.
Im sorry, but you are not answering to my questions.
Can you try again ?It is clear that Iblis was expected not to be arrogant, and to obey to the command of God (to prostrate before Adam). He was expected that because before that event he was a malaika.
While it is true that, Iblis, was expected to obey Allah's caommand, it was not because he was of the malaika, but he knew if the malaika had to obey, then, who was he not to.
Thats just conjecture
Assuming Iblis was not a malaika, what was he doing with them ?
How did he knew that he had to obey ?
Why were God surprised he did not obey to a command given to the malaika ?I just answered this above.
No, you did not answer
Assuming Iblis was a human ; what was he doing with the malaika before the creation of the human race ????Peace,
JM -
Peace JM,
Here is the big picture of the story of creation of man as I understand it.
Your BIG picture contains BIG contradictions and BIG conjectures. Here?s one in bold
Before the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc?) can disobey to the will of god.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride.
The malaika that are earthly natural forces are the vicegerents of the divine will on earth.
Iblis is one of them.After the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc?) can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).Summary
Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path.Did the animals, plants, etc, (whatever the etceteras are) exist in the heavens or before the creation of man? Whether before or after the creation of man, you admittedly confess that the malaika never disobey nor show pride and then later, insistently and arrogantly deny the very fact. Is your understanding that appalling or you post just for the fun of it?
Here?s another one of your BIG pictures containing contradiction/conjecture
All the angels acknowledge the superiority of Adam save Iblis.
True, but that does not make Iblis an angel, given that Iblis was a jinn, not a malaika, as per verse 234.
All the malaika seem to be doubtful.
None of the malaika were doubtful, simply because they never disobey nor show arrogance. Besides they all submitted to the command of Allah.
As per your weird understanding, all the angels acknowledge the superiority of Adam and yet all the malaika are doubtful, another contradiction/conjecture. Thirdly, sometimes you bring about the ?angels? and sometimes ?malaika?, yet you believe that malaika are some kind of ?psychological forces?, to confuse and twist the discussion. Man, your clear cut muddles are worse than others.
Who is Iblis ?
I think Iblis is the psychological force that leads living creatures to dominate the others (in the same specie), to reproduce more.The name Iblis has become a ?psychological force? and so has Adam, jinns have become ?uncontrolled thoughts? and the malaika have become ?controlled thoughts or those thoughts?. Please do me a favour, collect all the verses of the Quran containing the words Iblis, shaytaan, jinn, malaika, insaan, and study them thoroughly by replacing them with the meanings for what you think they are and then see if they make any sense.
If Iblis works into animals, no problem it is the will of God. But, if Iblis works into the human, it leads him to arrogance, selfishness, wickedness? Now, this situation will not change, and there will not be any other malaika that will rebel. They all have been subjected to human. So, you can confidently have faith in them.
I must say, what darn idiotic statements you bring about. You are very weak in solving problems.
Finally, I believe that every word in the Quran must bear the same meanings throughout, only then the Quran can be read consistently, precisely and coherently. As soon as one gives multiple meanings to any word in the Quran, confusion, chaos, inconsistencies and improper understanding of not just the word itself but the entire passage becomes apparently dysfunctional and irresolute (see verse 37). For example, it would be dubious to say that zakaat means purity at one place and 2.5% tithe at another. The same goes with salaat, meaning commitments/obligations and not learning processes, ritual prayers, assembles or what have you, to fit them here and there as you like. GOD's Words must be taken seriously, carefully, consistently and diligently. Hence meant for those who are sincere, intelligent, understand and reason with.
Personally, I do not understand the Ramadan and the fasting issues and I am currently studying them. Henceforth, I ask questions (see Hijab section) and hesitate to frivilously debate them until I am clear, or perhaps someone else who could bring about a clear understanding, GOD Willing.
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Hey there PRIEST_BOKMEI, Salaams,
My appologies for not addressing to you earlier. Some of the muddling and irresolute effects presented on this thread and elsewhere took me by surprise, and ah yes, ?the pounding on the walls? extraordinary. ops
LOLx10! My god, I've haven't laughed so hard for so long in quite awhile as I did tonight reading your replys to Idol. Man, not only are your comments decisive/poignant, but you are absolutely hilarious.
I am glad you enjoyed it. Keep up the memorabilia, it adds to ones face value. I, too, couldn't discount the session, as in
LOL! You've defined Iblis as a malaika, a Jinn, a thought, and a dabbatin! Left to you, soon, he will be a N. Y. Yankee!
lolHope to see more of you, GOD willing, on other topics.
GOD bless.
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PEACE IDOL AND /JM/
All I want is for you and Idol, to answer, logically and coherently, the following
1.) 1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
DANISH In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by controlled thoughts, what would be the point of sending a controlled thought from above as messenger?
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobeyed Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
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PEACE JM
STATEMENT#1. No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
STATEMENT#2. Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
STATEMENT#3. Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path. I agree with you that humans have free will. But Iblis/Satan/The divil does not; because it is a force (like the malaika)
Now, in statements 1 and 2, you clam that, the animals, plants, etc, and the malaika, never disobey Allah.
Now, in statement 3, you claim that, Iblis, a malaika, who, unlike man, and like the other malaika, has no free will, yet, he makes the CHOICE, a function of free will, to disobey Allah, which, in statements 1and 2, you said that he couldn't do, and becomes a shaitan. If he didn't make a choice, then how does he cease to be a maliaka? Certainly, you can see how absolutely and utterly contradictory your entire position is.
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).
How could man succeed the malaika on earth when Allah says the following
1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
No, JM, man came to succeed the Jinn, who, were created before man.
Who is Iblis ? I think Iblis is...If Iblis works...if Iblis works
First you ask, "who is Iblis", as if you know the answer and then you follow up with..."I think" and "If". This is hardly evidence of anything, JM. All you've offered here is conjecture.
Now, this situation will not change, and there will not be any other malaika that will rebel. They all have been subjected to human. So, you can confidently have faith in them.
Jm, tell me, where do you get this from?! How do you know that no other malaika will rebel, did Allah, personally tell you this or did all of the malaika tell you this? Please post Allah's ayats where He gives this guarantee that, no more malaika will rebel. Your word is just not sufficient. Nothing personal.
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PEACE DANISH
What has been made obvious by these discussions is that, the more one wishes to go against Allah's clear evidence, the more contradictory, confused, and...bizarre that individual must become. Some of the stuff we've read here, you just can't make it up.
May Allah keep us in good contact.
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Peace JM,
Paece Danish
Here is the big picture of the story of creation of man as I understand it.
Your BIG picture contains BIG contradictions and BIG conjectures. Heres one in bold
Before the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride.
The malaika that are earthly natural forces are the vicegerents of the divine will on earth.
Iblis is one of them.After the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).Summary
Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path.Did the animals, plants, etc, (whatever the etceteras are) exist in the heavens or before the creation of man?
Yes, there were animals, plants on earth before the creation of man.
Do you deny that ?.Whether before or after the creation of man, you admittedly confess that the malaika never disobey nor show pride and then later, insistently and arrogantly deny the very fact. Is your understanding that appalling or you post just for the fun of it?
At the creation of man, one malaika (Iblis) disobeyed and showed pride.
He then immediately be disgraced and lost his status of Malaika.
He said Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced.Heres another one of your BIG pictures containing contradiction/conjecture
All the angels acknowledge the superiority of Adam save Iblis.
True, but that does not make Iblis an angel, given that Iblis was a jinn, not a malaika, as per verse 234.
The word jinn is just here to qualify Iblis. Like the word kafir in .
What is a jinn, for you ? A human being ?All the malaika seem to be doubtful.
None of the malaika were doubtful, simply because they never disobey nor show arrogance. Besides they all submitted to the command of Allah.
How do you understand , then ?
And your Lord said to the Maliaka I am placing a successor on Earth. They said Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You? He said I know what you do not know.As per your weird understanding, all the angels acknowledge the superiority of Adam and yet all the malaika are doubtful, another contradiction/conjecture.
Since they are doubtful, God asks Adam to show them its superiority ; and then, they all acknowledge it, except Iblis .
Thirdly, sometimes you bring about the angels and sometimes malaika, yet you believe that malaika are some kind of psychological forces, to confuse and twist the discussion. Man, your clear cut muddles are worse than others.
Sorry for the confusion.
I should have not used the word angelsFinally, I believe that every word in the Quran must bear the same meanings throughout, only then the Quran can be read consistently, precisely and coherently. As soon as one gives multiple meanings to any word in the Quran, confusion, chaos, inconsistencies and improper understanding of not just the word itself but the entire passage becomes apparently dysfunctional and irresolute (see verse 37). For example, it would be dubious to say that zakaat means purity at one place and 2.5% tithe at another. The same goes with salaat, meaning commitments/obligations and not learning processes, ritual prayers, assembles or what have you, to fit them here and there as you like. GOD's Words must be taken seriously, carefully, consistently and diligently. Hence meant for those who are sincere, intelligent, understand and reason with.
Thats not the way the Quran works.
Every word has multiple meanings, and we should use the context (other verses) to choose the good meaning.PEACE JM
Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI
STATEMENT#1. No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
STATEMENT#2. Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
STATEMENT#3. Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path. I agree with you that humans have free will. But Iblis/Satan/The divil does not; because it is a force (like the malaika)
Now, in statements 1 and 2, you clam that, the animals, plants, etc, and the malaika, never disobey Allah.
Now, in statement 3, you claim that, Iblis, a malaika, who, unlike man, and like the other malaika, has no free will, yet, he makes the CHOICE, a function of free will, to disobey Allah, which, in statements 1and 2, you said that he couldn't do, and becomes a shaitan.
No, it is not a CHOICE.
I never said that.If he didn't make a choice, then how does he cease to be a maliaka? Certainly, you can see how absolutely and utterly contradictory your entire position is.
He ceased to be a malaika because God decided he did not deserve it any more, and disgraced him.
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).
How could man succeed the malaika on earth when Allah says the following
1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
follows .
And what stopped the people from believing when the guidance came to them, except that they said Has God sent a human messenger?
Men were surprised the messenger of God was a human, like them, and not a special being (like an angel, in their superstitions).
Then, in , God answers them you are human, so I am sending you a human messenger.No, JM, man came to succeed the Jinn, who, were created before man.
I cannot understand that.
You said me Iblis was a human How could he have been created before the human were ????Who is Iblis ? I think Iblis is...If Iblis works...if Iblis works
First you ask, "who is Iblis", as if you know the answer and then you follow up with..."I think" and "If". This is hardly evidence of anything, JM. All you've offered here is conjecture.
We have to be humble.
Only God really knows the unseen.Now, this situation will not change, and there will not be any other malaika that will rebel. They all have been subjected to human. So, you can confidently have faith in them.
Jm, tell me, where do you get this from?! How do you know that no other malaika will rebel, did Allah, personally tell you this or did all of the malaika tell you this? Please post Allah's ayats where He gives this guarantee that, no more malaika will rebel. Your word is just not sufficient. Nothing personal.
All angels have submitted to Adam (save Iblis, who became the devil).
Since they have submitted, they will not rebel.
If we should have to expect their rebellion, God would have said it in the Quran, which is a complete book.Peace
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PEACE IDOL AND /JM/
All I want is for you and Idol, to answer, logically and coherently, the following
1.) 1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
DANISH In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by controlled thoughts, what would be the point of sending a controlled thought from above as messenger?
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobeyed Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
Peace PB,
Some of these questions address to Idolfree, and I have answered those that address to me.
Please do not forget to answer the following questions
- About the nature of Iblis
If Iblis/Satan/The devil were a human, he should be dead, today (and at the time of Mohamed) ? Do you think he really is ?
- About
He said Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced.
So How do you understand the disgracing of Iblis ?
What does it mean for you ?
Why was he expected to obey and not to be arrogant (if he, as you say, had been given the ability to disobey) ?
What did he lose, due to his arrogant attitude ?- About
And We said to the Angels Submit to Adam. So they all submitted except for Satan, he was of the Jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord.
Assuming Iblis was not a malaika, what was he doing with them ?
Assuming Iblis was a human ; what was he doing with the malaika before the creation of the human race ????
How did he knew that he had to obey ?
Why were God surprised he did not obey to a command given to the malaika ?Please give, as I did, your own "big picture" of the story of Adam / Iblis
Peace,
JM -
Peace be upon you PB,
Quote
My concern is not if you and Danish take me seriously, I only debate you for those gathered who are witnessing this debate. If you are not satisfied with Moses example, what about Jonah?You need to rescind your suggestion that, Moses, disobeyed Allah, please do so. Jonah, without doubt, was a Messenger, however, he did not disobey Allah's command to address his people. If he disobeyed Allah, please post the ayat where Allah says that.
Are you serious? What is the lesson you get from the story of Jonah?
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Peace be upon you PB,
I will answer the questions you gave as I "think" you have a theory on what "jinn" are , unlike Danish who is just here , I guess, to back you up.
would like you to answer these questions
1.) 1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
DANISH In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by ?controlled thoughts?, what would be the point of sending a ?controlled thought? from above as messenger?
I think that answers itself. The messenger comes in the form of itself. That is very simple and even the sunnis understand that verse.
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobey Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
Sigh! I just answered this a few posts back. We have FAITH only in the positive. The thoughts that are righteous(controlled) , we have faith in them that hey will lead us, when we recognize that thoughts are uncontrolled, therefore rebellious, we do not have faith in them. The same way if one comes to us teaching truth, we have faith in them, but the minute they start teaching falsehood, we reject them and no longer have faith in them. I am not sure where you are getting this "COMPLETE AND TOTAL TRUST" from. You will have to show me that verse.
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Peace be upon you PB,
I think we are nearing the end of this debate so let me see if I understand your position.
You take "malaika" to be creatures that we know nothing about and can do no wrong.
You take "jinn" to be humans who are given to passions and have not recieved the God's message(basically gentiles who are not disciplined)
You take shyateen to be ...I am not sure of your stance on this.
I think I have answered your questions, so can you clarify this once again so that everyone witnessing will not have to go back and search to put together the pieces to understand you.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Quote
(37) ...None knows its interpretation except the God. This is the SAME as saying "ALL do not know the interpretation EXCEPT the God... Do you agree to this simple logical statement?This poses an interesting problem. I will have to think about it.
Have you come to a conclusion yet?
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Peace Kyle,
I will answer the questions you gave as I "think" you have a theory on what "jinn" are , unlike Danish who is just here , I guess, to back you up.
I support the overall facts and reasoning presented relevant to Quanic and natural stance, regardless of whoever he/she may be, including yourself. The "reasoning" is of key importance, simply because its not laid out on a silver platter and must be scrutinized and pictured to better understanding, hence the people of wisdom and intelligence (2129, 2151, 2269, 2179, 2197, 37, 3190, 4113, 5100, 101, 12111, 1319, 1452, 1575, 16125, 1739, 2054, 20128, 3334, 362, 3829, 3843, 399, 3918, 3921, 4054, 895).
I feel that Priest_Bokmei conveys more so as such, extracting, exposing and fine tuning the subject of discussion. That doesn't mean that he/she must always be right. Each one of us carries a certain degree/level of talent, perhaps better than the other.
Kyle, you do have some fine points as well which I do not overlook. There are a handful of members here that I do admire their wits, but then again there are some specific matters debated at relentless, repetitious and hopeless lengths without justifications. The jinn and angel, is one such debate.
Tell you what, few posts preceding this one, I posted several verses followed by questions relating to ?malaika?. Perhaps you can support your understanding of malaika to mean ?controlled thoughts? and jinns to mean ?uncontrolled thoughts? by answering the questions put forth in relation to other verses as well, explaining coherently and clearly. If its not too extraneous, my suggestion is that you bring about all such verses of the Quran and explain them one by one as to how the ?control thoughts? fit in, without being bias, prejudice, contradictory and inconsistence. If you cannot or have the slightest doubt, then please don?t force the issue. I?m sure that Priest_Bokmie, myself and others will be eager to hear your complete storry.
Finally, I am not here to play games with Quran, nor take sides. We are discussing Quran and emphasis is on its message. I have nothing more to say.
GOD bless.
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Peace be upon you Danish,
I support the overall facts and reasoning presented relevant to Quanic and natural stance
The "quranic" stance IS the natural stance.
regardless of whoever he/she may be, including yourself. The "reasoning" is of key importance, simply because its not laid out on a silver platter and must be scrutinized and pictured to better understanding, hence the people of wisdom and intelligence (2129, 2151, 2269, 2179, 2197, 37, 3190, 4113, 5100, 101, 12111, 1319, 1452, 1575, 16125, 1739, 2054, 20128, 3334, 362, 3829, 3843, 399, 3918, 3921, 4054, 895).
I agree, reasoning is vital, and it is part of the reason that I cannot understand why you support PB's position. When a specified group is commanded to do something, and when you are accountable for your OWN sins/crimes, it is not REASONABLE that another would be expected to follow the commmand and be punished for not doing so.
I feel that Priest_Bokmei conveys more so as such, extracting, exposing and fine tuning the subject of discussion. That doesn't mean that he/she must always be right. Each one of us carries a certain degree/level of talent, perhaps better than the other.
I agree, but let us not leave it to "feeling" , that is the level of emotion, we have to go to the level above that which is intellect. In fact, that is what this story is about.
Kyle, you do have some fine points as well which I do not overlook. There are a handful of members here that I do admire their wits, but then again there are some specific matters debated at relentless, repetitious and hopeless lengths without justifications. The jinn and angel, is one such debate.
I do agree that this has gone on for a long time, but what is the timeline we will put on truth?
A lot of questions and points are evaded, that is why the post continues on, and which is why I tried to narrow down the post so we could debate them point by point.Tell you what, few posts preceding this one, I posted several verses followed by questions relating to ?malaika?. Perhaps you can support your understanding of malaika to mean ?controlled thoughts? and jinns to mean ?uncontrolled thoughts? by answering the questions put forth in relation to other verses as well, explaining coherently and clearly. If its not too extraneous, my suggestion is that you bring about all such verses of the Quran and explain them one by one as to how the ?control thoughts? fit in, without being bias, prejudice, contradictory and inconsistence. If you cannot or have the slightest doubt, then please don?t force the issue. I?m sure that Priest_Bokmie, myself and others will be eager to hear your complete storry.
I would be eager to hear your stories as well. But do you see how you ask me to repeat myself yet again and are bothered when I do the same? I will go back and answer the questions you gave, if that is not sufficient, then let me know and I will do the same for all verses with "malaika"
Finally, I am not here to play games with Quran, nor take sides. We are discussing Quran and emphasis is on its message. I have nothing more to say.
GOD bless.
May the blessings of the God be upon you as well.
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PEACE IDOL
I will answer the questions you gave as I "think" you have a theory on what "jinn" are , unlike Danish who is just here , I guess, to back you up.
Listen, Danish, would most certainly back you up too, if your position was in line with Al-Quran.
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobey Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
Sigh! I just answered this a few posts back. We have FAITH only in the positive. The thoughts that are righteous(controlled) , we have faith in them that hey will lead us, when we recognize that thoughts are uncontrolled, therefore rebellious, we do not have faith in them. The same way if one comes to us teaching truth, we have faith in them, but the minute they start teaching falsehood, we reject them and no longer have faith in them.
You haven't answered at all, what are you talking about?
Allah, is telling us to have COMPLETE AND TOTAL TRUST, in His, as you put it, malaika/"controlled thoughts". Now, can Allah's "controlled thoughts" go spiraling out of control, especially, given the fact that, He tells us to have complete and total trust in them? If I were to give you a car and told you that you could faith that, it wouldn't require any repairs for at least 7 years, and, you had faith/belief, that is, complete and total trust in my word that I was telling you the absolute truth, how would feel about me if your car broke down 6 months after your acquiring it?
I am not sure where you are getting this "COMPLETE AND TOTAL TRUST" from. You will have to show me that verse.
Main Entry BELIEF a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing faith.
Main Entry FAITH complete trust.
Main Entry COMPLETE total; absolute.
2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Apostle and the Book which He has revealed to His Apostle and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His apostles and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
Now, given the above ayats and definitions, how could Allah, tell us to believe in the angels, that is, have faith in them, which, btw, He incorporates in the same ayat with Himself, His Quran, and His Messengers, if some of them could disobey?! If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobeyed Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? How, then, can anyone trust/confidence in Allah's above two ayats?
Looking forward to your response.
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Peace be upon you PB,
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Sigh! I just answered this a few posts back. We have FAITH only in the positive. The thoughts that are righteous(controlled) , we have faith in them that hey will lead us, when we recognize that thoughts are uncontrolled, therefore rebellious, we do not have faith in them. The same way if one comes to us teaching truth, we have faith in them, but the minute they start teaching falsehood, we reject them and no longer have faith in them.PB
You haven't answered at all, what are you talking about?
Allah, is telling us to have COMPLETE AND TOTAL TRUST, in His, as you put it, malaika/"controlled thoughts". Now, can Allah's "controlled thoughts" go spiraling out of control, especially, given the fact that, He tells us to have complete and total trust in them? If I were to give you a car and told you that you could faith that, it wouldn't require any repairs for at least 7 years, and, you had faith/belief, that is, complete and total trust in my word that I was telling you the absolute truth, how would feel about me if your car broke down 6 months after your acquiring it?Your above description talks about "believing", the God and myself are talking about "FAITH". For me to have FAITH in something, I have to witness the same things continuing to happen, therby gaining FAITH in that. What you just described is whats called "BLIND FAITH", or Believing.
Further, the God did not give us "malaika" and tell us they would never "breakdown", in fact He tells us that "iblis" is the state of mind that causes this "breakdown". He warns us not to follow the footsteps of shaytaan, and if we obey that, we don't have to worry about any broken down car.
You are the one that is suppossed to be controlling what goes into your MIND, if you allow the wrong "gasoline" in your MIND, of course it will break down.
So again, yes, we have FAITH in the malaika because we witness that when you fill your mind with righteouesness, your actions follow that path, and when you fill your mind with unrighteous thoughts, you follow that path. Whatever seed you plant, that is what grows. Like the car, you have faith in the car that is well kept, but you do not have faith if someone starts to abuse the car and not maintain it properly. Your FAITH in it is relative to how it is maintained.