WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...
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PEACE JM
STATEMENT#1. No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
STATEMENT#2. Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
STATEMENT#3. Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path. I agree with you that humans have free will. But Iblis/Satan/The divil does not; because it is a force (like the malaika)
Now, in statements 1 and 2, you clam that, the animals, plants, etc, and the malaika, never disobey Allah.
Now, in statement 3, you claim that, Iblis, a malaika, who, unlike man, and like the other malaika, has no free will, yet, he makes the CHOICE, a function of free will, to disobey Allah, which, in statements 1and 2, you said that he couldn't do, and becomes a shaitan. If he didn't make a choice, then how does he cease to be a maliaka? Certainly, you can see how absolutely and utterly contradictory your entire position is.
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).
How could man succeed the malaika on earth when Allah says the following
1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
No, JM, man came to succeed the Jinn, who, were created before man.
Who is Iblis ? I think Iblis is...If Iblis works...if Iblis works
First you ask, "who is Iblis", as if you know the answer and then you follow up with..."I think" and "If". This is hardly evidence of anything, JM. All you've offered here is conjecture.
Now, this situation will not change, and there will not be any other malaika that will rebel. They all have been subjected to human. So, you can confidently have faith in them.
Jm, tell me, where do you get this from?! How do you know that no other malaika will rebel, did Allah, personally tell you this or did all of the malaika tell you this? Please post Allah's ayats where He gives this guarantee that, no more malaika will rebel. Your word is just not sufficient. Nothing personal.
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PEACE DANISH
What has been made obvious by these discussions is that, the more one wishes to go against Allah's clear evidence, the more contradictory, confused, and...bizarre that individual must become. Some of the stuff we've read here, you just can't make it up.
May Allah keep us in good contact.
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Peace JM,
Paece Danish
Here is the big picture of the story of creation of man as I understand it.
Your BIG picture contains BIG contradictions and BIG conjectures. Heres one in bold
Before the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride.
The malaika that are earthly natural forces are the vicegerents of the divine will on earth.
Iblis is one of them.After the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).Summary
Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path.Did the animals, plants, etc, (whatever the etceteras are) exist in the heavens or before the creation of man?
Yes, there were animals, plants on earth before the creation of man.
Do you deny that ?.Whether before or after the creation of man, you admittedly confess that the malaika never disobey nor show pride and then later, insistently and arrogantly deny the very fact. Is your understanding that appalling or you post just for the fun of it?
At the creation of man, one malaika (Iblis) disobeyed and showed pride.
He then immediately be disgraced and lost his status of Malaika.
He said Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced.Heres another one of your BIG pictures containing contradiction/conjecture
All the angels acknowledge the superiority of Adam save Iblis.
True, but that does not make Iblis an angel, given that Iblis was a jinn, not a malaika, as per verse 234.
The word jinn is just here to qualify Iblis. Like the word kafir in .
What is a jinn, for you ? A human being ?All the malaika seem to be doubtful.
None of the malaika were doubtful, simply because they never disobey nor show arrogance. Besides they all submitted to the command of Allah.
How do you understand , then ?
And your Lord said to the Maliaka I am placing a successor on Earth. They said Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You? He said I know what you do not know.As per your weird understanding, all the angels acknowledge the superiority of Adam and yet all the malaika are doubtful, another contradiction/conjecture.
Since they are doubtful, God asks Adam to show them its superiority ; and then, they all acknowledge it, except Iblis .
Thirdly, sometimes you bring about the angels and sometimes malaika, yet you believe that malaika are some kind of psychological forces, to confuse and twist the discussion. Man, your clear cut muddles are worse than others.
Sorry for the confusion.
I should have not used the word angelsFinally, I believe that every word in the Quran must bear the same meanings throughout, only then the Quran can be read consistently, precisely and coherently. As soon as one gives multiple meanings to any word in the Quran, confusion, chaos, inconsistencies and improper understanding of not just the word itself but the entire passage becomes apparently dysfunctional and irresolute (see verse 37). For example, it would be dubious to say that zakaat means purity at one place and 2.5% tithe at another. The same goes with salaat, meaning commitments/obligations and not learning processes, ritual prayers, assembles or what have you, to fit them here and there as you like. GOD's Words must be taken seriously, carefully, consistently and diligently. Hence meant for those who are sincere, intelligent, understand and reason with.
Thats not the way the Quran works.
Every word has multiple meanings, and we should use the context (other verses) to choose the good meaning.PEACE JM
Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI
STATEMENT#1. No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
STATEMENT#2. Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
STATEMENT#3. Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path. I agree with you that humans have free will. But Iblis/Satan/The divil does not; because it is a force (like the malaika)
Now, in statements 1 and 2, you clam that, the animals, plants, etc, and the malaika, never disobey Allah.
Now, in statement 3, you claim that, Iblis, a malaika, who, unlike man, and like the other malaika, has no free will, yet, he makes the CHOICE, a function of free will, to disobey Allah, which, in statements 1and 2, you said that he couldn't do, and becomes a shaitan.
No, it is not a CHOICE.
I never said that.If he didn't make a choice, then how does he cease to be a maliaka? Certainly, you can see how absolutely and utterly contradictory your entire position is.
He ceased to be a malaika because God decided he did not deserve it any more, and disgraced him.
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).
How could man succeed the malaika on earth when Allah says the following
1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
follows .
And what stopped the people from believing when the guidance came to them, except that they said Has God sent a human messenger?
Men were surprised the messenger of God was a human, like them, and not a special being (like an angel, in their superstitions).
Then, in , God answers them you are human, so I am sending you a human messenger.No, JM, man came to succeed the Jinn, who, were created before man.
I cannot understand that.
You said me Iblis was a human How could he have been created before the human were ????Who is Iblis ? I think Iblis is...If Iblis works...if Iblis works
First you ask, "who is Iblis", as if you know the answer and then you follow up with..."I think" and "If". This is hardly evidence of anything, JM. All you've offered here is conjecture.
We have to be humble.
Only God really knows the unseen.Now, this situation will not change, and there will not be any other malaika that will rebel. They all have been subjected to human. So, you can confidently have faith in them.
Jm, tell me, where do you get this from?! How do you know that no other malaika will rebel, did Allah, personally tell you this or did all of the malaika tell you this? Please post Allah's ayats where He gives this guarantee that, no more malaika will rebel. Your word is just not sufficient. Nothing personal.
All angels have submitted to Adam (save Iblis, who became the devil).
Since they have submitted, they will not rebel.
If we should have to expect their rebellion, God would have said it in the Quran, which is a complete book.Peace
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PEACE IDOL AND /JM/
All I want is for you and Idol, to answer, logically and coherently, the following
1.) 1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
DANISH In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by controlled thoughts, what would be the point of sending a controlled thought from above as messenger?
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobeyed Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
Peace PB,
Some of these questions address to Idolfree, and I have answered those that address to me.
Please do not forget to answer the following questions
- About the nature of Iblis
If Iblis/Satan/The devil were a human, he should be dead, today (and at the time of Mohamed) ? Do you think he really is ?
- About
He said Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced.
So How do you understand the disgracing of Iblis ?
What does it mean for you ?
Why was he expected to obey and not to be arrogant (if he, as you say, had been given the ability to disobey) ?
What did he lose, due to his arrogant attitude ?- About
And We said to the Angels Submit to Adam. So they all submitted except for Satan, he was of the Jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord.
Assuming Iblis was not a malaika, what was he doing with them ?
Assuming Iblis was a human ; what was he doing with the malaika before the creation of the human race ????
How did he knew that he had to obey ?
Why were God surprised he did not obey to a command given to the malaika ?Please give, as I did, your own "big picture" of the story of Adam / Iblis
Peace,
JM -
Peace be upon you PB,
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My concern is not if you and Danish take me seriously, I only debate you for those gathered who are witnessing this debate. If you are not satisfied with Moses example, what about Jonah?You need to rescind your suggestion that, Moses, disobeyed Allah, please do so. Jonah, without doubt, was a Messenger, however, he did not disobey Allah's command to address his people. If he disobeyed Allah, please post the ayat where Allah says that.
Are you serious? What is the lesson you get from the story of Jonah?
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Peace be upon you PB,
I will answer the questions you gave as I "think" you have a theory on what "jinn" are , unlike Danish who is just here , I guess, to back you up.
would like you to answer these questions
1.) 1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
DANISH In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by ?controlled thoughts?, what would be the point of sending a ?controlled thought? from above as messenger?
I think that answers itself. The messenger comes in the form of itself. That is very simple and even the sunnis understand that verse.
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobey Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
Sigh! I just answered this a few posts back. We have FAITH only in the positive. The thoughts that are righteous(controlled) , we have faith in them that hey will lead us, when we recognize that thoughts are uncontrolled, therefore rebellious, we do not have faith in them. The same way if one comes to us teaching truth, we have faith in them, but the minute they start teaching falsehood, we reject them and no longer have faith in them. I am not sure where you are getting this "COMPLETE AND TOTAL TRUST" from. You will have to show me that verse.
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Peace be upon you PB,
I think we are nearing the end of this debate so let me see if I understand your position.
You take "malaika" to be creatures that we know nothing about and can do no wrong.
You take "jinn" to be humans who are given to passions and have not recieved the God's message(basically gentiles who are not disciplined)
You take shyateen to be ...I am not sure of your stance on this.
I think I have answered your questions, so can you clarify this once again so that everyone witnessing will not have to go back and search to put together the pieces to understand you.
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Peace be upon you PB,
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(37) ...None knows its interpretation except the God. This is the SAME as saying "ALL do not know the interpretation EXCEPT the God... Do you agree to this simple logical statement?This poses an interesting problem. I will have to think about it.
Have you come to a conclusion yet?
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Peace Kyle,
I will answer the questions you gave as I "think" you have a theory on what "jinn" are , unlike Danish who is just here , I guess, to back you up.
I support the overall facts and reasoning presented relevant to Quanic and natural stance, regardless of whoever he/she may be, including yourself. The "reasoning" is of key importance, simply because its not laid out on a silver platter and must be scrutinized and pictured to better understanding, hence the people of wisdom and intelligence (2129, 2151, 2269, 2179, 2197, 37, 3190, 4113, 5100, 101, 12111, 1319, 1452, 1575, 16125, 1739, 2054, 20128, 3334, 362, 3829, 3843, 399, 3918, 3921, 4054, 895).
I feel that Priest_Bokmei conveys more so as such, extracting, exposing and fine tuning the subject of discussion. That doesn't mean that he/she must always be right. Each one of us carries a certain degree/level of talent, perhaps better than the other.
Kyle, you do have some fine points as well which I do not overlook. There are a handful of members here that I do admire their wits, but then again there are some specific matters debated at relentless, repetitious and hopeless lengths without justifications. The jinn and angel, is one such debate.
Tell you what, few posts preceding this one, I posted several verses followed by questions relating to ?malaika?. Perhaps you can support your understanding of malaika to mean ?controlled thoughts? and jinns to mean ?uncontrolled thoughts? by answering the questions put forth in relation to other verses as well, explaining coherently and clearly. If its not too extraneous, my suggestion is that you bring about all such verses of the Quran and explain them one by one as to how the ?control thoughts? fit in, without being bias, prejudice, contradictory and inconsistence. If you cannot or have the slightest doubt, then please don?t force the issue. I?m sure that Priest_Bokmie, myself and others will be eager to hear your complete storry.
Finally, I am not here to play games with Quran, nor take sides. We are discussing Quran and emphasis is on its message. I have nothing more to say.
GOD bless.
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Peace be upon you Danish,
I support the overall facts and reasoning presented relevant to Quanic and natural stance
The "quranic" stance IS the natural stance.
regardless of whoever he/she may be, including yourself. The "reasoning" is of key importance, simply because its not laid out on a silver platter and must be scrutinized and pictured to better understanding, hence the people of wisdom and intelligence (2129, 2151, 2269, 2179, 2197, 37, 3190, 4113, 5100, 101, 12111, 1319, 1452, 1575, 16125, 1739, 2054, 20128, 3334, 362, 3829, 3843, 399, 3918, 3921, 4054, 895).
I agree, reasoning is vital, and it is part of the reason that I cannot understand why you support PB's position. When a specified group is commanded to do something, and when you are accountable for your OWN sins/crimes, it is not REASONABLE that another would be expected to follow the commmand and be punished for not doing so.
I feel that Priest_Bokmei conveys more so as such, extracting, exposing and fine tuning the subject of discussion. That doesn't mean that he/she must always be right. Each one of us carries a certain degree/level of talent, perhaps better than the other.
I agree, but let us not leave it to "feeling" , that is the level of emotion, we have to go to the level above that which is intellect. In fact, that is what this story is about.
Kyle, you do have some fine points as well which I do not overlook. There are a handful of members here that I do admire their wits, but then again there are some specific matters debated at relentless, repetitious and hopeless lengths without justifications. The jinn and angel, is one such debate.
I do agree that this has gone on for a long time, but what is the timeline we will put on truth?
A lot of questions and points are evaded, that is why the post continues on, and which is why I tried to narrow down the post so we could debate them point by point.Tell you what, few posts preceding this one, I posted several verses followed by questions relating to ?malaika?. Perhaps you can support your understanding of malaika to mean ?controlled thoughts? and jinns to mean ?uncontrolled thoughts? by answering the questions put forth in relation to other verses as well, explaining coherently and clearly. If its not too extraneous, my suggestion is that you bring about all such verses of the Quran and explain them one by one as to how the ?control thoughts? fit in, without being bias, prejudice, contradictory and inconsistence. If you cannot or have the slightest doubt, then please don?t force the issue. I?m sure that Priest_Bokmie, myself and others will be eager to hear your complete storry.
I would be eager to hear your stories as well. But do you see how you ask me to repeat myself yet again and are bothered when I do the same? I will go back and answer the questions you gave, if that is not sufficient, then let me know and I will do the same for all verses with "malaika"
Finally, I am not here to play games with Quran, nor take sides. We are discussing Quran and emphasis is on its message. I have nothing more to say.
GOD bless.
May the blessings of the God be upon you as well.
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PEACE IDOL
I will answer the questions you gave as I "think" you have a theory on what "jinn" are , unlike Danish who is just here , I guess, to back you up.
Listen, Danish, would most certainly back you up too, if your position was in line with Al-Quran.
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobey Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
Sigh! I just answered this a few posts back. We have FAITH only in the positive. The thoughts that are righteous(controlled) , we have faith in them that hey will lead us, when we recognize that thoughts are uncontrolled, therefore rebellious, we do not have faith in them. The same way if one comes to us teaching truth, we have faith in them, but the minute they start teaching falsehood, we reject them and no longer have faith in them.
You haven't answered at all, what are you talking about?
Allah, is telling us to have COMPLETE AND TOTAL TRUST, in His, as you put it, malaika/"controlled thoughts". Now, can Allah's "controlled thoughts" go spiraling out of control, especially, given the fact that, He tells us to have complete and total trust in them? If I were to give you a car and told you that you could faith that, it wouldn't require any repairs for at least 7 years, and, you had faith/belief, that is, complete and total trust in my word that I was telling you the absolute truth, how would feel about me if your car broke down 6 months after your acquiring it?
I am not sure where you are getting this "COMPLETE AND TOTAL TRUST" from. You will have to show me that verse.
Main Entry BELIEF a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing faith.
Main Entry FAITH complete trust.
Main Entry COMPLETE total; absolute.
2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Apostle and the Book which He has revealed to His Apostle and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His apostles and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
Now, given the above ayats and definitions, how could Allah, tell us to believe in the angels, that is, have faith in them, which, btw, He incorporates in the same ayat with Himself, His Quran, and His Messengers, if some of them could disobey?! If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobeyed Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? How, then, can anyone trust/confidence in Allah's above two ayats?
Looking forward to your response.
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Peace be upon you PB,
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Sigh! I just answered this a few posts back. We have FAITH only in the positive. The thoughts that are righteous(controlled) , we have faith in them that hey will lead us, when we recognize that thoughts are uncontrolled, therefore rebellious, we do not have faith in them. The same way if one comes to us teaching truth, we have faith in them, but the minute they start teaching falsehood, we reject them and no longer have faith in them.PB
You haven't answered at all, what are you talking about?
Allah, is telling us to have COMPLETE AND TOTAL TRUST, in His, as you put it, malaika/"controlled thoughts". Now, can Allah's "controlled thoughts" go spiraling out of control, especially, given the fact that, He tells us to have complete and total trust in them? If I were to give you a car and told you that you could faith that, it wouldn't require any repairs for at least 7 years, and, you had faith/belief, that is, complete and total trust in my word that I was telling you the absolute truth, how would feel about me if your car broke down 6 months after your acquiring it?Your above description talks about "believing", the God and myself are talking about "FAITH". For me to have FAITH in something, I have to witness the same things continuing to happen, therby gaining FAITH in that. What you just described is whats called "BLIND FAITH", or Believing.
Further, the God did not give us "malaika" and tell us they would never "breakdown", in fact He tells us that "iblis" is the state of mind that causes this "breakdown". He warns us not to follow the footsteps of shaytaan, and if we obey that, we don't have to worry about any broken down car.
You are the one that is suppossed to be controlling what goes into your MIND, if you allow the wrong "gasoline" in your MIND, of course it will break down.
So again, yes, we have FAITH in the malaika because we witness that when you fill your mind with righteouesness, your actions follow that path, and when you fill your mind with unrighteous thoughts, you follow that path. Whatever seed you plant, that is what grows. Like the car, you have faith in the car that is well kept, but you do not have faith if someone starts to abuse the car and not maintain it properly. Your FAITH in it is relative to how it is maintained.
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Peace be upon you Danish,
I will answer the following questions in hopes that you can see the consistency of my position.
In 230, 711 & 1528, who, what or which ?controlled thoughts? GOD is talking to, before HE even created us?
I ask you to think of it this way, before we were created and after we die from these physical bodies, we are only MIND(nafs). That is why sleep is likened to death (3942). When you are sleep, you are still in the world of thoughts, sometimes these thoughts are so real that you cannot tell you are even sleeping. So the mind exsisted FIRST, before the body which houses the "mind". But the MIND is unable to understand the physical world and needed the human body and its senses(sight, hearing, etc) to give the mind a means of understanding the world.
In 298, who are Gabriel and Michael? Are these the names of some ?control thoughts??
I do not know who "gabriel" and "michael" are. I suspect , as is being shown again and again with other "names", that these are not names but descriptions.
In 2102, who are Haroot and Maroot? Are these the names of more or some other ?control thoughts??
Again, I won't comment on the names as they are probably descriptions, just like "iblees", but they are indeed thoughts that came from the God. It says they were descended by the God as a TEST.
In 2210, how would ?controlled thoughts? descend from above along with GOD, when, according to you, we as humans, possess controlled/uncontrolled thoughts, existing on earth?
The sky symbolizes the Mind and its vastness, the earth symbolizes the physical body. Just as the 7 skies(atmosphere) effect the earth, so does the Mind effect the body. With that said, when our time is up, we return to the God and HIS MIND, yes HIS MIND. So the God will come to us with the correct MIND and all falsehood will disappear and those who were false will be exposed(shins laid bare).
Who or Which ?controlled thoughts? GOD is talking about in the heavens other than HIMSELF, that would descend down on earth along with GOD and the whole matter would be terminated?
The energy of the God (HIS THOUGHTS) that come from the ONE MIND which we will all be returned to at the end.
In 2285, the messengers or prophets of GOD, who already possess controlled thoughts, why are they ordered to believe in other ?controlled thoughts? in heaven? Are there different categories or species of ?controlled thoughts? that one must believe in or reject?
Where do you get "other controlled thoughts in heaven"? I don't even know what "heaven" is. The messengers, who are mankind just like us, are told to have faith in "controlled thoughts", to have faith that when you allow the God to control your thouights, as oppossed to letting your own desires control your thoughts, you succeed.
In 2248, what is being carried by ?controlled thoughts??
I don't know what the box/ark is, but whatever it is comes to you through your mind, therby carried by thoughts. This is one of the most revealing verses because no one can claim that they saw "creatures with wings" bring them anything.
In 380, how does one idolize a ?controlled thought? as Lord, yet become disbelievers, knowing that the very ?controlled thought? belongs to GOD?
Same way one can idolize a prophet, which belongs to the God. The prophets put the thoughts which come down to them on paper, some uphold the thoughts of one prophet over another, when they ALL come from the God.
In 3124 & 125, how does 3,000/5000 ?controlled thoughts? support the already supported believers?
The verses state that the believers already have sufficient thoughts to keep them on the right path, but if they are patient, the God will send them more.
In 497, how do ?controlled thoughts? terminate ones lives?
At the end of ones appointed time, the God comes with the truth which destroys all falsehood.
In 68, GOD says that if HE had sent down a ?controlled thought?, the whole matter would have been terminated. Has the matter been terminated in yours or mine?s case, since we have them here on earth?
The next verse continues..
"And if We made him an "malaiaka", We would have made him a man.."The question that they asked him showed thier ignorance in the matter, they were asking for a "malaika' to come down with him that they could see, but that is only for the very END, when we will be presented with what our MINDS(nafs) earned, many translate as what the souls earned. So the God corrects this thinking in the very next verse stating that if He sent a malaika, it would have came down as a man as far as vision is concerend (the thoughts in a mans head).
In 68, can a ?controlled thought? become or change into a man?
As stated above, thoughts are sent through men, not as seperate creatures that one can see as proof of messengership, thats why the God suffices as a witness.
In 650 &1131, why is a ?controlled thought? not a ?controlled thought?
This message comes to correct what is wrong in our understandings. The messenger tells them that he is not a malaika, he is a man that has malaika descend upon him as do all righteous men.
In 693, how do ?controlled thoughts? extend their hands to snatch away souls?
Sybolically. Just like the God's "hand".
In 6111, what kind of ?controlled thoughts? are those which cannot control, specially when they are controlled by GOD Himself? Are you defying GOD's Power?
The malaika are always being sent, just that most are not purified enough to hear them. But in the verse you are mentioning, it starts of "EVEN IF", which means this DID NOT HAPPEN, but the God is trying to show us that no matter what signs a rejector sees, he cannot have faith.
In 720, it seems that the ?controlled thought? was already in place, but because another ?controlled thought? who became ?uncontrolled?, doesn?t want a ?controlled thought? to become a ?controlled thought?? Perhaps you might have some difficulty understanding this.
Not sure of your question, but I will tell you my understanding of that verse regarding malaika. This is the story of us ALL, we have sufficint amounts of what we NEED, but when we become relaxed with our mental mastery, our desires have a chance to take control. They will use any excuse. For example, one is trying to give up drinking, so the desires say "THATS VERY NOBLE, THIS IS A CAUSE FOR CELEBRATION! LETS HAVE A DRINK!" The desires are always there waiting, they are part of us and cannot be destroyed.
In 89, how is someone on earth who is imploring GOD, supported with 1,000 ?controlled thoughts? from above to get rescued? What are these ?controlled thoughts? above called?
When you call on the God, it is a focusing discipline, it helps you to put the situation firmly in your mind, and then you must maintain the learning process(salaat), you must actively seek the answer. The God will send the proper understanding by way of thoughts which you might think came from you, but really came from the God.
In 812, how does GOD inspire ?controlled thoughts? to support the already ?controlled thoughts??
The first thing that comes to mind is that if malaika were so strict in following orders as you and PB claim, why do they need this word of support? Anyway, the God is simply telling the malaika to prostrate to Adam once more. And they all will EXCEPT "iblis".
In 850 & 4727, how does ?controlled thoughts? put someone to death and beat them on their faces and rear-ends?
I do not understand the symbolism of those verses yet, but you should have the idea from the above answers.
In 1231, how is ?controlled thought? not a human being?
The rejecting women called him an "malaika", just the same way today people ,islead others when they use the term "angel" to describe a beautiful person. Again, mankind has the wrong perception of "malaika" and the God shows us the correct understanding.
In 1740, why is the verse talking about GOD giving males/boys to humans while keeping female/daughters as ?controlled thoughts? to HIMSELF? Don?t the males have ?controlled thoughts?? This would be really interesting?
This brings in another SYMBOLISM for thoughts which are "young boys/sons". That is why we constatly read about the MALE children of isreal. It is the journey of thought towards the God. You have to understand the symbolism of GENDER. A thought coming to a person is SYMBOLIZED as young male because it is like a seed coming to impregnate the mind. The female recieves this seed and brings forth the manifestation of new life on the physical plane. So when we look at the misconception of most, they take "malaika' as physical creatures (FEMALE), when in fact they are non physical(MALE). So the God asks us why do they name the "malaiaka" with female names? It is for us to THINK, WHY DO THEY DO THAT? I think I have showed you the proper understanding.
In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by ?controlled thoughts?, what would be the point of sending a ?controlled thought? from above as messenger?
Because the God sends messengers that are of the same level so they can be understood.
In 1850 & 20116, a ?controlled thought? becomes uncontrolled.
Correct, just as a submitter can lose control and become a rejector.
In 2275, why are there two distinct species, one from among ?controlled thoughts? as messengers and another from among people as messengers?
Everything starts as a thought.
In 351, why are ?controlled thoughts? said to be messengers with wings?
Same reason that birds SYMBOLIZE spiritual thought, they "fly" through the air. Remember that the SKIES symbolize the MIND as the EARTH symbolizes the body.
In 37150, did GOD create ?controlled thoughts? as females?
The verse is saying that he did NOT do that. He is questioning those with the incorrect perception of "malaika" who see them as physical creatures(female).
In 4114, weren?t the messengers having controlled thoughts not enough?
No, because it is up to each HEARER to either hear and obey, or hear and reject. Some get malaika descending upon them when the HEAR, others choose to reject with thier own shayteen(rejecting thoughts).
In 4319, how is it that the claim made on ?controlled thoughts? to become servants as females?
See my response above regarding GENDER SYMBOLISM.
In 4360, how do ?controlled thoughts? colonize and reproduce?
I don't see colonoze or reproduce, this is what I have
(4360) And if We will/want, We would have made from you malaika in the Earth they succeed/follow.
In 5337, how are ?controlled thoughts? given feminine names?
Thatis SYMBOLIC meaning that mankind like to PHYSICALIZE things, they want ruku and sujood to be PHYSCIALLY getting on the ground. They want stick to PHYSCIALLY turn into snakes, they want seas to PHYSICALLY split into two, they want to find the PHYSICAL ARK of Noah, etc. Again the female is used to denote the physical.
In 7338 & 974, the verse mentions spirits and angels? If angels mean ?controlled thoughts?, what do spirits mean?
Malaika are righteous thoughts, ruh is the God's divine energy that gives life to all things.
How is that angels and spirits are mentioned together, likewise humans and jinns?
I am not sure what connection you see, please elaborate, but what I see is that the God blew into us from HIS energy which possibnly contain the righteous thougts, I am not sure of that just yet.
The story of Isa, SON of MARY, is a good tool to understand the GENDER SYMBOLISM. ISa is the word which comes as a thought to the MIND(MARY), this is the true "virgin birth". D
I hope I have sufficintly presented my position, i will await your response
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peace be unto you idolfree,
can you post the verses that you get your understanding of allegories from, such as the earth is the allegory of our bodies, the sky is the allegory of our minds, etc. because at times I have trouble trying to find out where you get your interpretations from, I'm asking you this because I'm pretty sure your not just conjecturing as I have found many of your views of the reading (quran) to be right such as all truth being from God (482 I hadn't ever even looked at this verse from that angle before)
peace
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PB,
Please understand that all the forces that are still called malaika after the creation of Adam (ie, the creation of the human race) have never show pride and have never disobey to the commands of God.
So, you can have COMPLETE TRUST in them, that is, COMPLETE TRUST in the malaika.Please understand that, except the man, everything (the bees, the cows, the wind, the earth, the moon...) obey to the commands of God. The malaika are the forces (the energy) that make everything move, according to God's laws.
Then God decided to create the human race, with the ability of disobeying the commands of God.
When the man chooses to obey the commands of God, he is following the malaika.
When the man chooses to disobey the commands of God, he is following the devil.Before the creation of the human race, there were no devil ; because there were no creature able to choose to disobey the commands of God.
At the same time God created a creature able to disobey his commands (the man), he created the force leading this creature to disobey (the devil).
The devil is a force ; not a human ; not a member of a special kind of invisible beings named "Djinns".The word "jinn" is often used in the Quran to point out the men that are overproud, the powerful, the leaders. Similarly, the devil is said to be a jinn because it is the (psychological) force that lead men to be overproud, to seek power over the others. And the devil is said to be created from fire because of its fiery nature.
This force, that lead to seek power, exists in the animals too. In the animals, this force is a malaika. But, its human equivalent is not a malaika anymore. It has turned to be the devil.
This is the main difference between the human race, and the beasts.
When a man follows the devil (being overproud, seeking to gain power over the others, to mate with many females), we can say he is behaving like beasts (losing their humanity).Are not God's words clear, and easy to understand ?
Peace,
JM -
Peace be upon you Idris,
can you post the verses that you get your understanding of allegories from, such as the earth is the allegory of our bodies, the sky is the allegory of our minds, etc. because at times I have trouble trying to find out where you get your interpretations from, I'm asking you this because I'm pretty sure your not just conjecturing as I have found many of your views of the reading (quran) to be right such as all truth being from God (482 I hadn't ever even looked at this verse from that angle before)
Thank you for the kind word, all appreciation is to the God.
Regarding many of my Symbolisms, they come from listening to the God when He tells us to ponder on the creation. When He tells us that His signs are coming from the Horizons to within our very minds(nafs). So I look at the rain fall and give life to a dead earth, I look at how the skies(usually tanslated as the 7 heavens) influence the events on the earth, like the Moon and its phases which can be found in the FARMER'S ALMANAC
And from there I reason it together.
The God compares revelation to rain, so what does earth compare to? keep in mind that the "rain" gives "life" to an earth that is dead. Aren't human beings made made of "earth" material? Zinc, Iron, magnesium, etc?
Think about the skies, with the spiritual thoughts (birds), how sometimes we are cloudy on a subject and sometimes it is clear, sometimes we get revelation(rain) and sometimes not, sometimes we get strikes of lighting that allow us to move. Think about how the "dawn" of a new understanding comes gradually, the sun does not rise all at once. The merging is gradual, by degree. The God gives us the Symbolism of the mountain we are climbing, into the skies. For many it becomes difficult, for the steep path is not easy for them.
I did not give any verses above because the ayats(signs) are all around us, from the horizons to our minds, but I think you are aware of the many verses that are referenced above, if not, let me know and I will gladly explain as clearly as possible and provide the verses.
I do not claim to have full understanding, but I am certainly going after full understanding, so I welcome any additions or critisizms.
Peace
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Peace be upon you Idris,
One more verse which was just brought to my attention from another thread
(5122) And in the sky (is) your provision and what you are being promised
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I'll ignore your first comment in good faith, if you can bring me a verse from the Reading that gives Jibril and Michael the title of malaika. I'll gladly change my position on that, until then.....
Idris,
Can you tell me, if the Book we have before us ( Quran ) contains in it everything you ask for, as clarifications and vivid expositions. Are the Signs of Allah, or the Ayats of Allah is meant only for deep reflection with sincere seeking of seeing the hidden hikmat or just a reading material like the manuals wherein everything is clearly well defined and can be practiced literally? Please post your clarification and say then, if the quote pasted above has in it any challenge.
drfazl
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So the God asks us why do they name the "malaiaka" with female names? It is for us to THINK, WHY DO THEY DO THAT? I think I have showed you the proper understanding.
brother idolfree,
Malayikas bring us by His leave wisdom from Allah. In ordinary terms we call it knowledge. In India there are hindus by religion who name the bringer of this knowledge as Goddess of Wisdom, namely SARASWATHI.
Then again, the rizk (provisions) of Allah descend on us. The Hindus call the bringer of such provisions as the Goddess of Rizk, namely LAKSHMI.
drfazl
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PEACE IDOL
Your above description talks about "believing", the God and myself are talking about "FAITH". For me to have FAITH in something, I have to witness the same things continuing to happen, therby gaining FAITH in that. What you just described is whats called "BLIND FAITH", or Believing.
Main Entry BELIEF a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing faith.
Main Entry FAITH complete trust.
Main Entry COMPLETE total; absolute.
Main Entry SHALL/SHOULD used to express a command or exhortation used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory
2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Apostle and the Book which He has revealed to His Apostle and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His apostles and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
You are simply amazing and have shown that you have no real regard for Allah, yourself or others. For anyone to interpret the above ayats as BLIND FAITH is nothing less than reprehensible/disbelief and well you know it. Allah, in 2177, is TELLING you what righteousness is and a part of righteousness is to believe in the malaika. When Allah says to believe in something, do you really think He means that it can FAIL, that, it cannot be trusted absolutely????? Is it BLIND FAITH too to believe in the LAST DAY?? Do you have any doubts about it?? Allah, in 4136, is TELLING you that, not to have absolute belief/trust in the malaika, is DISBELIEF-KUFR!
Tell me, for a fact, what, if anything, do you believe cannot fail you..ever?
I know you don't want to lose this debate, but it is better to lose this debate than to continue to mislead yourself and others , because that is exactly what Iblis did.
Further, the God did not give us "malaika" and tell us they would never "breakdown", in fact He tells us that "iblis" is the state of mind that causes this "breakdown".
ALLAH, HAS SAID NO SUCH THING, IDOL! This is nothing but your conjecture which you wish pass off as Quranic Truth. Please understand that.
You are the one that is suppossed to be controlling what goes into your MIND, if you allow the wrong "gasoline" in your MIND, of course it will break down.
No, the analogy was that, the car, was guaranteed not to break down for at least 7 years. There were no stipulations attached to that guarantee.
Do you know the penalty for disbelief? Do you believe it? Time for a gut check, man.