WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...
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Peace be upon you PB,
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My concern is not if you and Danish take me seriously, I only debate you for those gathered who are witnessing this debate. If you are not satisfied with Moses example, what about Jonah?You need to rescind your suggestion that, Moses, disobeyed Allah, please do so. Jonah, without doubt, was a Messenger, however, he did not disobey Allah's command to address his people. If he disobeyed Allah, please post the ayat where Allah says that.
Are you serious? What is the lesson you get from the story of Jonah?
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Peace be upon you PB,
I will answer the questions you gave as I "think" you have a theory on what "jinn" are , unlike Danish who is just here , I guess, to back you up.
would like you to answer these questions
1.) 1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle.
DANISH In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by ?controlled thoughts?, what would be the point of sending a ?controlled thought? from above as messenger?
I think that answers itself. The messenger comes in the form of itself. That is very simple and even the sunnis understand that verse.
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobey Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
Sigh! I just answered this a few posts back. We have FAITH only in the positive. The thoughts that are righteous(controlled) , we have faith in them that hey will lead us, when we recognize that thoughts are uncontrolled, therefore rebellious, we do not have faith in them. The same way if one comes to us teaching truth, we have faith in them, but the minute they start teaching falsehood, we reject them and no longer have faith in them. I am not sure where you are getting this "COMPLETE AND TOTAL TRUST" from. You will have to show me that verse.
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Peace be upon you PB,
I think we are nearing the end of this debate so let me see if I understand your position.
You take "malaika" to be creatures that we know nothing about and can do no wrong.
You take "jinn" to be humans who are given to passions and have not recieved the God's message(basically gentiles who are not disciplined)
You take shyateen to be ...I am not sure of your stance on this.
I think I have answered your questions, so can you clarify this once again so that everyone witnessing will not have to go back and search to put together the pieces to understand you.
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Peace be upon you PB,
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(37) ...None knows its interpretation except the God. This is the SAME as saying "ALL do not know the interpretation EXCEPT the God... Do you agree to this simple logical statement?This poses an interesting problem. I will have to think about it.
Have you come to a conclusion yet?
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Peace Kyle,
I will answer the questions you gave as I "think" you have a theory on what "jinn" are , unlike Danish who is just here , I guess, to back you up.
I support the overall facts and reasoning presented relevant to Quanic and natural stance, regardless of whoever he/she may be, including yourself. The "reasoning" is of key importance, simply because its not laid out on a silver platter and must be scrutinized and pictured to better understanding, hence the people of wisdom and intelligence (2129, 2151, 2269, 2179, 2197, 37, 3190, 4113, 5100, 101, 12111, 1319, 1452, 1575, 16125, 1739, 2054, 20128, 3334, 362, 3829, 3843, 399, 3918, 3921, 4054, 895).
I feel that Priest_Bokmei conveys more so as such, extracting, exposing and fine tuning the subject of discussion. That doesn't mean that he/she must always be right. Each one of us carries a certain degree/level of talent, perhaps better than the other.
Kyle, you do have some fine points as well which I do not overlook. There are a handful of members here that I do admire their wits, but then again there are some specific matters debated at relentless, repetitious and hopeless lengths without justifications. The jinn and angel, is one such debate.
Tell you what, few posts preceding this one, I posted several verses followed by questions relating to ?malaika?. Perhaps you can support your understanding of malaika to mean ?controlled thoughts? and jinns to mean ?uncontrolled thoughts? by answering the questions put forth in relation to other verses as well, explaining coherently and clearly. If its not too extraneous, my suggestion is that you bring about all such verses of the Quran and explain them one by one as to how the ?control thoughts? fit in, without being bias, prejudice, contradictory and inconsistence. If you cannot or have the slightest doubt, then please don?t force the issue. I?m sure that Priest_Bokmie, myself and others will be eager to hear your complete storry.
Finally, I am not here to play games with Quran, nor take sides. We are discussing Quran and emphasis is on its message. I have nothing more to say.
GOD bless.
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Peace be upon you Danish,
I support the overall facts and reasoning presented relevant to Quanic and natural stance
The "quranic" stance IS the natural stance.
regardless of whoever he/she may be, including yourself. The "reasoning" is of key importance, simply because its not laid out on a silver platter and must be scrutinized and pictured to better understanding, hence the people of wisdom and intelligence (2129, 2151, 2269, 2179, 2197, 37, 3190, 4113, 5100, 101, 12111, 1319, 1452, 1575, 16125, 1739, 2054, 20128, 3334, 362, 3829, 3843, 399, 3918, 3921, 4054, 895).
I agree, reasoning is vital, and it is part of the reason that I cannot understand why you support PB's position. When a specified group is commanded to do something, and when you are accountable for your OWN sins/crimes, it is not REASONABLE that another would be expected to follow the commmand and be punished for not doing so.
I feel that Priest_Bokmei conveys more so as such, extracting, exposing and fine tuning the subject of discussion. That doesn't mean that he/she must always be right. Each one of us carries a certain degree/level of talent, perhaps better than the other.
I agree, but let us not leave it to "feeling" , that is the level of emotion, we have to go to the level above that which is intellect. In fact, that is what this story is about.
Kyle, you do have some fine points as well which I do not overlook. There are a handful of members here that I do admire their wits, but then again there are some specific matters debated at relentless, repetitious and hopeless lengths without justifications. The jinn and angel, is one such debate.
I do agree that this has gone on for a long time, but what is the timeline we will put on truth?
A lot of questions and points are evaded, that is why the post continues on, and which is why I tried to narrow down the post so we could debate them point by point.Tell you what, few posts preceding this one, I posted several verses followed by questions relating to ?malaika?. Perhaps you can support your understanding of malaika to mean ?controlled thoughts? and jinns to mean ?uncontrolled thoughts? by answering the questions put forth in relation to other verses as well, explaining coherently and clearly. If its not too extraneous, my suggestion is that you bring about all such verses of the Quran and explain them one by one as to how the ?control thoughts? fit in, without being bias, prejudice, contradictory and inconsistence. If you cannot or have the slightest doubt, then please don?t force the issue. I?m sure that Priest_Bokmie, myself and others will be eager to hear your complete storry.
I would be eager to hear your stories as well. But do you see how you ask me to repeat myself yet again and are bothered when I do the same? I will go back and answer the questions you gave, if that is not sufficient, then let me know and I will do the same for all verses with "malaika"
Finally, I am not here to play games with Quran, nor take sides. We are discussing Quran and emphasis is on its message. I have nothing more to say.
GOD bless.
May the blessings of the God be upon you as well.
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PEACE IDOL
I will answer the questions you gave as I "think" you have a theory on what "jinn" are , unlike Danish who is just here , I guess, to back you up.
Listen, Danish, would most certainly back you up too, if your position was in line with Al-Quran.
2.) 2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobey Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? Is Allah, not our sincere adviser and guide? Allah says
4122...and who is truer of word than Allah?
For Allah, then, to tell mankind to have complete and total trust in the aforementioned things, and, knowing full well that, what He is asking man to have complete and total trust in, is going to fail that trust, would contradict 4122 and make Allah a liar and a shaitan, to wit
720 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.
721 And he swore to them both Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you.
Is this how Allah behaves, that is, He deceives mankind as Iblis did?
If either of you believe Iblis was a rebellious Malaika, and Yunus, The Messenger of Allah, disobeyed Allah, then both of you are in contradiction of ayats 2177, 4136, and 4122, and, are, de facto, making a liar out of Allah.
Sigh! I just answered this a few posts back. We have FAITH only in the positive. The thoughts that are righteous(controlled) , we have faith in them that hey will lead us, when we recognize that thoughts are uncontrolled, therefore rebellious, we do not have faith in them. The same way if one comes to us teaching truth, we have faith in them, but the minute they start teaching falsehood, we reject them and no longer have faith in them.
You haven't answered at all, what are you talking about?
Allah, is telling us to have COMPLETE AND TOTAL TRUST, in His, as you put it, malaika/"controlled thoughts". Now, can Allah's "controlled thoughts" go spiraling out of control, especially, given the fact that, He tells us to have complete and total trust in them? If I were to give you a car and told you that you could faith that, it wouldn't require any repairs for at least 7 years, and, you had faith/belief, that is, complete and total trust in my word that I was telling you the absolute truth, how would feel about me if your car broke down 6 months after your acquiring it?
I am not sure where you are getting this "COMPLETE AND TOTAL TRUST" from. You will have to show me that verse.
Main Entry BELIEF a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing faith.
Main Entry FAITH complete trust.
Main Entry COMPLETE total; absolute.
2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Apostle and the Book which He has revealed to His Apostle and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His apostles and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
Now, given the above ayats and definitions, how could Allah, tell us to believe in the angels, that is, have faith in them, which, btw, He incorporates in the same ayat with Himself, His Quran, and His Messengers, if some of them could disobey?! If Al-Quran can be doubted and the malaika and the Messengers can and have, according to you, disobeyed Allah, then, how can Allah say to HAVE FAITH, THAT IS, COMPLETE/TOTAL TRUST IN THEM THEN????? How, then, can anyone trust/confidence in Allah's above two ayats?
Looking forward to your response.
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Peace be upon you PB,
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Sigh! I just answered this a few posts back. We have FAITH only in the positive. The thoughts that are righteous(controlled) , we have faith in them that hey will lead us, when we recognize that thoughts are uncontrolled, therefore rebellious, we do not have faith in them. The same way if one comes to us teaching truth, we have faith in them, but the minute they start teaching falsehood, we reject them and no longer have faith in them.PB
You haven't answered at all, what are you talking about?
Allah, is telling us to have COMPLETE AND TOTAL TRUST, in His, as you put it, malaika/"controlled thoughts". Now, can Allah's "controlled thoughts" go spiraling out of control, especially, given the fact that, He tells us to have complete and total trust in them? If I were to give you a car and told you that you could faith that, it wouldn't require any repairs for at least 7 years, and, you had faith/belief, that is, complete and total trust in my word that I was telling you the absolute truth, how would feel about me if your car broke down 6 months after your acquiring it?Your above description talks about "believing", the God and myself are talking about "FAITH". For me to have FAITH in something, I have to witness the same things continuing to happen, therby gaining FAITH in that. What you just described is whats called "BLIND FAITH", or Believing.
Further, the God did not give us "malaika" and tell us they would never "breakdown", in fact He tells us that "iblis" is the state of mind that causes this "breakdown". He warns us not to follow the footsteps of shaytaan, and if we obey that, we don't have to worry about any broken down car.
You are the one that is suppossed to be controlling what goes into your MIND, if you allow the wrong "gasoline" in your MIND, of course it will break down.
So again, yes, we have FAITH in the malaika because we witness that when you fill your mind with righteouesness, your actions follow that path, and when you fill your mind with unrighteous thoughts, you follow that path. Whatever seed you plant, that is what grows. Like the car, you have faith in the car that is well kept, but you do not have faith if someone starts to abuse the car and not maintain it properly. Your FAITH in it is relative to how it is maintained.
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Peace be upon you Danish,
I will answer the following questions in hopes that you can see the consistency of my position.
In 230, 711 & 1528, who, what or which ?controlled thoughts? GOD is talking to, before HE even created us?
I ask you to think of it this way, before we were created and after we die from these physical bodies, we are only MIND(nafs). That is why sleep is likened to death (3942). When you are sleep, you are still in the world of thoughts, sometimes these thoughts are so real that you cannot tell you are even sleeping. So the mind exsisted FIRST, before the body which houses the "mind". But the MIND is unable to understand the physical world and needed the human body and its senses(sight, hearing, etc) to give the mind a means of understanding the world.
In 298, who are Gabriel and Michael? Are these the names of some ?control thoughts??
I do not know who "gabriel" and "michael" are. I suspect , as is being shown again and again with other "names", that these are not names but descriptions.
In 2102, who are Haroot and Maroot? Are these the names of more or some other ?control thoughts??
Again, I won't comment on the names as they are probably descriptions, just like "iblees", but they are indeed thoughts that came from the God. It says they were descended by the God as a TEST.
In 2210, how would ?controlled thoughts? descend from above along with GOD, when, according to you, we as humans, possess controlled/uncontrolled thoughts, existing on earth?
The sky symbolizes the Mind and its vastness, the earth symbolizes the physical body. Just as the 7 skies(atmosphere) effect the earth, so does the Mind effect the body. With that said, when our time is up, we return to the God and HIS MIND, yes HIS MIND. So the God will come to us with the correct MIND and all falsehood will disappear and those who were false will be exposed(shins laid bare).
Who or Which ?controlled thoughts? GOD is talking about in the heavens other than HIMSELF, that would descend down on earth along with GOD and the whole matter would be terminated?
The energy of the God (HIS THOUGHTS) that come from the ONE MIND which we will all be returned to at the end.
In 2285, the messengers or prophets of GOD, who already possess controlled thoughts, why are they ordered to believe in other ?controlled thoughts? in heaven? Are there different categories or species of ?controlled thoughts? that one must believe in or reject?
Where do you get "other controlled thoughts in heaven"? I don't even know what "heaven" is. The messengers, who are mankind just like us, are told to have faith in "controlled thoughts", to have faith that when you allow the God to control your thouights, as oppossed to letting your own desires control your thoughts, you succeed.
In 2248, what is being carried by ?controlled thoughts??
I don't know what the box/ark is, but whatever it is comes to you through your mind, therby carried by thoughts. This is one of the most revealing verses because no one can claim that they saw "creatures with wings" bring them anything.
In 380, how does one idolize a ?controlled thought? as Lord, yet become disbelievers, knowing that the very ?controlled thought? belongs to GOD?
Same way one can idolize a prophet, which belongs to the God. The prophets put the thoughts which come down to them on paper, some uphold the thoughts of one prophet over another, when they ALL come from the God.
In 3124 & 125, how does 3,000/5000 ?controlled thoughts? support the already supported believers?
The verses state that the believers already have sufficient thoughts to keep them on the right path, but if they are patient, the God will send them more.
In 497, how do ?controlled thoughts? terminate ones lives?
At the end of ones appointed time, the God comes with the truth which destroys all falsehood.
In 68, GOD says that if HE had sent down a ?controlled thought?, the whole matter would have been terminated. Has the matter been terminated in yours or mine?s case, since we have them here on earth?
The next verse continues..
"And if We made him an "malaiaka", We would have made him a man.."The question that they asked him showed thier ignorance in the matter, they were asking for a "malaika' to come down with him that they could see, but that is only for the very END, when we will be presented with what our MINDS(nafs) earned, many translate as what the souls earned. So the God corrects this thinking in the very next verse stating that if He sent a malaika, it would have came down as a man as far as vision is concerend (the thoughts in a mans head).
In 68, can a ?controlled thought? become or change into a man?
As stated above, thoughts are sent through men, not as seperate creatures that one can see as proof of messengership, thats why the God suffices as a witness.
In 650 &1131, why is a ?controlled thought? not a ?controlled thought?
This message comes to correct what is wrong in our understandings. The messenger tells them that he is not a malaika, he is a man that has malaika descend upon him as do all righteous men.
In 693, how do ?controlled thoughts? extend their hands to snatch away souls?
Sybolically. Just like the God's "hand".
In 6111, what kind of ?controlled thoughts? are those which cannot control, specially when they are controlled by GOD Himself? Are you defying GOD's Power?
The malaika are always being sent, just that most are not purified enough to hear them. But in the verse you are mentioning, it starts of "EVEN IF", which means this DID NOT HAPPEN, but the God is trying to show us that no matter what signs a rejector sees, he cannot have faith.
In 720, it seems that the ?controlled thought? was already in place, but because another ?controlled thought? who became ?uncontrolled?, doesn?t want a ?controlled thought? to become a ?controlled thought?? Perhaps you might have some difficulty understanding this.
Not sure of your question, but I will tell you my understanding of that verse regarding malaika. This is the story of us ALL, we have sufficint amounts of what we NEED, but when we become relaxed with our mental mastery, our desires have a chance to take control. They will use any excuse. For example, one is trying to give up drinking, so the desires say "THATS VERY NOBLE, THIS IS A CAUSE FOR CELEBRATION! LETS HAVE A DRINK!" The desires are always there waiting, they are part of us and cannot be destroyed.
In 89, how is someone on earth who is imploring GOD, supported with 1,000 ?controlled thoughts? from above to get rescued? What are these ?controlled thoughts? above called?
When you call on the God, it is a focusing discipline, it helps you to put the situation firmly in your mind, and then you must maintain the learning process(salaat), you must actively seek the answer. The God will send the proper understanding by way of thoughts which you might think came from you, but really came from the God.
In 812, how does GOD inspire ?controlled thoughts? to support the already ?controlled thoughts??
The first thing that comes to mind is that if malaika were so strict in following orders as you and PB claim, why do they need this word of support? Anyway, the God is simply telling the malaika to prostrate to Adam once more. And they all will EXCEPT "iblis".
In 850 & 4727, how does ?controlled thoughts? put someone to death and beat them on their faces and rear-ends?
I do not understand the symbolism of those verses yet, but you should have the idea from the above answers.
In 1231, how is ?controlled thought? not a human being?
The rejecting women called him an "malaika", just the same way today people ,islead others when they use the term "angel" to describe a beautiful person. Again, mankind has the wrong perception of "malaika" and the God shows us the correct understanding.
In 1740, why is the verse talking about GOD giving males/boys to humans while keeping female/daughters as ?controlled thoughts? to HIMSELF? Don?t the males have ?controlled thoughts?? This would be really interesting?
This brings in another SYMBOLISM for thoughts which are "young boys/sons". That is why we constatly read about the MALE children of isreal. It is the journey of thought towards the God. You have to understand the symbolism of GENDER. A thought coming to a person is SYMBOLIZED as young male because it is like a seed coming to impregnate the mind. The female recieves this seed and brings forth the manifestation of new life on the physical plane. So when we look at the misconception of most, they take "malaika' as physical creatures (FEMALE), when in fact they are non physical(MALE). So the God asks us why do they name the "malaiaka" with female names? It is for us to THINK, WHY DO THEY DO THAT? I think I have showed you the proper understanding.
In 1795, if the entire earth was inhabited by ?controlled thoughts?, what would be the point of sending a ?controlled thought? from above as messenger?
Because the God sends messengers that are of the same level so they can be understood.
In 1850 & 20116, a ?controlled thought? becomes uncontrolled.
Correct, just as a submitter can lose control and become a rejector.
In 2275, why are there two distinct species, one from among ?controlled thoughts? as messengers and another from among people as messengers?
Everything starts as a thought.
In 351, why are ?controlled thoughts? said to be messengers with wings?
Same reason that birds SYMBOLIZE spiritual thought, they "fly" through the air. Remember that the SKIES symbolize the MIND as the EARTH symbolizes the body.
In 37150, did GOD create ?controlled thoughts? as females?
The verse is saying that he did NOT do that. He is questioning those with the incorrect perception of "malaika" who see them as physical creatures(female).
In 4114, weren?t the messengers having controlled thoughts not enough?
No, because it is up to each HEARER to either hear and obey, or hear and reject. Some get malaika descending upon them when the HEAR, others choose to reject with thier own shayteen(rejecting thoughts).
In 4319, how is it that the claim made on ?controlled thoughts? to become servants as females?
See my response above regarding GENDER SYMBOLISM.
In 4360, how do ?controlled thoughts? colonize and reproduce?
I don't see colonoze or reproduce, this is what I have
(4360) And if We will/want, We would have made from you malaika in the Earth they succeed/follow.
In 5337, how are ?controlled thoughts? given feminine names?
Thatis SYMBOLIC meaning that mankind like to PHYSICALIZE things, they want ruku and sujood to be PHYSCIALLY getting on the ground. They want stick to PHYSCIALLY turn into snakes, they want seas to PHYSICALLY split into two, they want to find the PHYSICAL ARK of Noah, etc. Again the female is used to denote the physical.
In 7338 & 974, the verse mentions spirits and angels? If angels mean ?controlled thoughts?, what do spirits mean?
Malaika are righteous thoughts, ruh is the God's divine energy that gives life to all things.
How is that angels and spirits are mentioned together, likewise humans and jinns?
I am not sure what connection you see, please elaborate, but what I see is that the God blew into us from HIS energy which possibnly contain the righteous thougts, I am not sure of that just yet.
The story of Isa, SON of MARY, is a good tool to understand the GENDER SYMBOLISM. ISa is the word which comes as a thought to the MIND(MARY), this is the true "virgin birth". D
I hope I have sufficintly presented my position, i will await your response
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peace be unto you idolfree,
can you post the verses that you get your understanding of allegories from, such as the earth is the allegory of our bodies, the sky is the allegory of our minds, etc. because at times I have trouble trying to find out where you get your interpretations from, I'm asking you this because I'm pretty sure your not just conjecturing as I have found many of your views of the reading (quran) to be right such as all truth being from God (482 I hadn't ever even looked at this verse from that angle before)
peace
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PB,
Please understand that all the forces that are still called malaika after the creation of Adam (ie, the creation of the human race) have never show pride and have never disobey to the commands of God.
So, you can have COMPLETE TRUST in them, that is, COMPLETE TRUST in the malaika.Please understand that, except the man, everything (the bees, the cows, the wind, the earth, the moon...) obey to the commands of God. The malaika are the forces (the energy) that make everything move, according to God's laws.
Then God decided to create the human race, with the ability of disobeying the commands of God.
When the man chooses to obey the commands of God, he is following the malaika.
When the man chooses to disobey the commands of God, he is following the devil.Before the creation of the human race, there were no devil ; because there were no creature able to choose to disobey the commands of God.
At the same time God created a creature able to disobey his commands (the man), he created the force leading this creature to disobey (the devil).
The devil is a force ; not a human ; not a member of a special kind of invisible beings named "Djinns".The word "jinn" is often used in the Quran to point out the men that are overproud, the powerful, the leaders. Similarly, the devil is said to be a jinn because it is the (psychological) force that lead men to be overproud, to seek power over the others. And the devil is said to be created from fire because of its fiery nature.
This force, that lead to seek power, exists in the animals too. In the animals, this force is a malaika. But, its human equivalent is not a malaika anymore. It has turned to be the devil.
This is the main difference between the human race, and the beasts.
When a man follows the devil (being overproud, seeking to gain power over the others, to mate with many females), we can say he is behaving like beasts (losing their humanity).Are not God's words clear, and easy to understand ?
Peace,
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Peace be upon you Idris,
can you post the verses that you get your understanding of allegories from, such as the earth is the allegory of our bodies, the sky is the allegory of our minds, etc. because at times I have trouble trying to find out where you get your interpretations from, I'm asking you this because I'm pretty sure your not just conjecturing as I have found many of your views of the reading (quran) to be right such as all truth being from God (482 I hadn't ever even looked at this verse from that angle before)
Thank you for the kind word, all appreciation is to the God.
Regarding many of my Symbolisms, they come from listening to the God when He tells us to ponder on the creation. When He tells us that His signs are coming from the Horizons to within our very minds(nafs). So I look at the rain fall and give life to a dead earth, I look at how the skies(usually tanslated as the 7 heavens) influence the events on the earth, like the Moon and its phases which can be found in the FARMER'S ALMANAC
And from there I reason it together.
The God compares revelation to rain, so what does earth compare to? keep in mind that the "rain" gives "life" to an earth that is dead. Aren't human beings made made of "earth" material? Zinc, Iron, magnesium, etc?
Think about the skies, with the spiritual thoughts (birds), how sometimes we are cloudy on a subject and sometimes it is clear, sometimes we get revelation(rain) and sometimes not, sometimes we get strikes of lighting that allow us to move. Think about how the "dawn" of a new understanding comes gradually, the sun does not rise all at once. The merging is gradual, by degree. The God gives us the Symbolism of the mountain we are climbing, into the skies. For many it becomes difficult, for the steep path is not easy for them.
I did not give any verses above because the ayats(signs) are all around us, from the horizons to our minds, but I think you are aware of the many verses that are referenced above, if not, let me know and I will gladly explain as clearly as possible and provide the verses.
I do not claim to have full understanding, but I am certainly going after full understanding, so I welcome any additions or critisizms.
Peace
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Peace be upon you Idris,
One more verse which was just brought to my attention from another thread
(5122) And in the sky (is) your provision and what you are being promised
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I'll ignore your first comment in good faith, if you can bring me a verse from the Reading that gives Jibril and Michael the title of malaika. I'll gladly change my position on that, until then.....
Idris,
Can you tell me, if the Book we have before us ( Quran ) contains in it everything you ask for, as clarifications and vivid expositions. Are the Signs of Allah, or the Ayats of Allah is meant only for deep reflection with sincere seeking of seeing the hidden hikmat or just a reading material like the manuals wherein everything is clearly well defined and can be practiced literally? Please post your clarification and say then, if the quote pasted above has in it any challenge.
drfazl
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So the God asks us why do they name the "malaiaka" with female names? It is for us to THINK, WHY DO THEY DO THAT? I think I have showed you the proper understanding.
brother idolfree,
Malayikas bring us by His leave wisdom from Allah. In ordinary terms we call it knowledge. In India there are hindus by religion who name the bringer of this knowledge as Goddess of Wisdom, namely SARASWATHI.
Then again, the rizk (provisions) of Allah descend on us. The Hindus call the bringer of such provisions as the Goddess of Rizk, namely LAKSHMI.
drfazl
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PEACE IDOL
Your above description talks about "believing", the God and myself are talking about "FAITH". For me to have FAITH in something, I have to witness the same things continuing to happen, therby gaining FAITH in that. What you just described is whats called "BLIND FAITH", or Believing.
Main Entry BELIEF a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing faith.
Main Entry FAITH complete trust.
Main Entry COMPLETE total; absolute.
Main Entry SHALL/SHOULD used to express a command or exhortation used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory
2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Apostle and the Book which He has revealed to His Apostle and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His apostles and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
You are simply amazing and have shown that you have no real regard for Allah, yourself or others. For anyone to interpret the above ayats as BLIND FAITH is nothing less than reprehensible/disbelief and well you know it. Allah, in 2177, is TELLING you what righteousness is and a part of righteousness is to believe in the malaika. When Allah says to believe in something, do you really think He means that it can FAIL, that, it cannot be trusted absolutely????? Is it BLIND FAITH too to believe in the LAST DAY?? Do you have any doubts about it?? Allah, in 4136, is TELLING you that, not to have absolute belief/trust in the malaika, is DISBELIEF-KUFR!
Tell me, for a fact, what, if anything, do you believe cannot fail you..ever?
I know you don't want to lose this debate, but it is better to lose this debate than to continue to mislead yourself and others , because that is exactly what Iblis did.
Further, the God did not give us "malaika" and tell us they would never "breakdown", in fact He tells us that "iblis" is the state of mind that causes this "breakdown".
ALLAH, HAS SAID NO SUCH THING, IDOL! This is nothing but your conjecture which you wish pass off as Quranic Truth. Please understand that.
You are the one that is suppossed to be controlling what goes into your MIND, if you allow the wrong "gasoline" in your MIND, of course it will break down.
No, the analogy was that, the car, was guaranteed not to break down for at least 7 years. There were no stipulations attached to that guarantee.
Do you know the penalty for disbelief? Do you believe it? Time for a gut check, man.
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Malaika are righteous thoughts, ruh is the God's divine energy that gives life to all things
.idolfree,
Malayika are not given the choice. So how can be righteousness there?
RUH is what we have as soul, and the RUHUL AMIN , Gibraeel speaks to me of FURQAN, the Criterion, from within my RUH whenever I set my mind - thoughts - in motion or set out for action, in every such move, the RUH admonishes me between right and wrong. As for the RUH, the Messenger Gibraeel, it is only for him to warn and give glad tidings and never controls my mind. Soul says 'no' to bad; mind says 'yes' to vain desires!
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The RUHUL AMIN has descended with it,
dr fazlur rahman
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Peace be upon you Dr Fazlur,
Malayikas bring us by His leave wisdom from Allah. In ordinary terms we call it knowledge.
I have no disagreement with that.
In India there are hindus by religion who name the bringer of this knowledge as Goddess of Wisdom, namely SARASWATHI.
Then again, the rizk (provisions) of Allah descend on us. The Hindus call the bringer of such provisions as the Goddess of Rizk, namely LAKSHMI.
I am not understanding, are those names feminine? Even so, I think it is much more deeper than that. There is a masculine and feminine principle in all things, that is why it APPEARS the reading(quran) is geared towards men for the most part, but that is only because it is like the male which brings the seed to be implanted in the feminine mind which brings forth the vigin birth of the Word.
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Peace be upon you PB,
2177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets.
Change "believe" into "have faith"
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Apostle and the Book which He has revealed to His Apostle and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His apostles and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
Change "believe" to "have faith"
You are simply amazing and have shown that you have no real regard for Allah, yourself or others.
Your are too scared to translate the Arabic word "Allah" into The God, so I am not suprised at your responses which try to instill fear into me. I understand that I alone will answer to the Source of Creation for my deeds.
For anyone to interpret the above ayats as BLIND FAITH is nothing less than reprehensible/disbelief and well you know it.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
Allah, in 2177, is TELLING you what righteousness is and a part of righteousness is to believe in the malaika. When Allah says to believe in something, do you really think He means that it can FAIL, that, it cannot be trusted absolutely?????
Malaika can be trusted, that is why you need to trade all of those shayteen in for malaika.
Is it BLIND FAITH too to believe in the LAST DAY??
If someone just says it and automatically you do it, then yes, but if you sit back and witness the creation, you will see that the ENDING TIME is evident. All causes lead to an effect, and KNOWING THAT, one can have faith in the ENDING TIME. Don't you have faith that if you put your hand in fire that it will burn?
Do you have any doubts about it??
As shown above, no.
Allah, in 4136, is TELLING you that, not to have absolute belief/trust in the malaika, is DISBELIEF-KUFR!
I do have absolute trust in the malaika, but if one turns into a shaytaan, which means they are no longer a malaika, then I am no longer required to have faith in that. Similarly, I have faith that a righteous human being will be peaceful with me, but if I see that same human going through tests which they fail and turn into an unrighteous human being, then I no longer have faith that this peron will treat me with peace.
Tell me, for a fact, what, if anything, do you believe cannot fail you..ever?
Following the path of the God.
I know you don't want to lose this debate, but it is better to lose this debate than to continue to mislead yourself and others , because that is exactly what Iblis did.
Again, when confronted with proof, I hear and obey, you do not even factor into my decisions brother. Yes, Iblis disobeyed the command given to the malaika.
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Further, the God did not give us "malaika" and tell us they would never "breakdown", in fact He tells us that "iblis" is the state of mind that causes this "breakdown".ALLAH, HAS SAID NO SUCH THING, IDOL! This is nothing but your conjecture which you wish pass off as Quranic Truth. Please understand that.
You probably just cant see it.
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You are the one that is suppossed to be controlling what goes into your MIND, if you allow the wrong "gasoline" in your MIND, of course it will break down.No, the analogy was that, the car, was guaranteed not to break down for at least 7 years. There were no stipulations attached to that guarantee.
Well then your allegory was faulty and should not have been used. I corrected it for you.
Do you know the penalty for disbelief? Do you believe it? Time for a gut check, man.
I'm no De La Hoya wink
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Peace be upon you Dr Fazlur,
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Malaika are righteous thoughts, ruh is the God's divine energy that gives life to all thingsidolfree,
Malayika are not given the choice. So how can be righteousness there?
How did "iblees" disobey the command that was given to the malaika?
RUH is what we have as soul
What is a soul? Most translators translate "nafs" as soul, but I disagree with that as when i sit and observe my human makeup, I cannot percieve a 'soul", but I do percieve my MIND, which is a definition of "nafs".
So again, I have "nafs" as MIND. Ruh, which comes from the same root word as "breath/wind" is the ENERGY that all manifestations come from.
and the RUHUL AMIN
I would translate that as the faithful energy, it is this faithful energy that we can have faith in because it is the energy that sends the righteous thoughts(malaika), which create prophets(nabiyeen), who spead this energy as messengers(rasool), all from the ONE GOD.
Gibraeel speaks to me of FURQAN, the Criterion, from within my RUH
I respect your understanding but disagree, I think you have the concepts switched around, respectfully. See above.
I cannot speak on Gibraeel because I have no clue if that is really a name or a description.
whenever I set my mind - thoughts - in motion or set out for action, in every such move, the RUH admonishes me between right and wrong. As for the RUH, the Messenger Gibraeel, it is only for him to warn and give glad tidings and never controls my mind. Soul says 'no' to bad; mind says 'yes' to vain desires!
How do you make the connection between Gibreel and the ruh? To me, the Ruh is the energy that everything is manifest from, it is the energy that beats the heart and makes the nails grow and gives energy to each atom. We have been given the ability as mankind to make our own choices. The malaika are sent down to instruct, but if we do not submit , then we cannot hear the malaika, instead we hear the whisper of shayteen(rejecting thoughts).
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The RUHUL AMIN has descended with it,
Yes, the malaika come from this UNSEEN energy(ruh) and are described as "jinn" (covered, like night covers from sight). Remember jinn are made from a smokeless fire.