Does Islam support a Capitalist or a Socialist system?
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Teh problem and the choice is not that, and when you are talking about a country which is not independent, meaning that it cannot follow a line that is not dictated to it, there is no choice. You have to do what you are told or else. It is as simple as that. Egypt is following now the capitalist path, because it was told to do so, forced to do so.
And A or B is a false choice, there is a whole alphabet there, if you can choose. Most countries, I would say no country can choose today, without having to choose between anihilation, or almost, and submission.
Salaam
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Salaam Confused,
you've chosen an apt name, all the 'political' systems are frauds without exception, they are all based upon imposition and a slave master structure, your mother has clearly never read the Qur'an if she is under the delusion Allah promotes slavery.
The only choice is in natural law, allodial rights of use, polycentric community, and human energy economics, established as a personal choice, educating yourself in these concepts is the true Salat of Islam, establishing what you have learned is the true Dua, and creating what the Qur'an truly instructs is the true Islam.
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Salaam Confused,
you've chosen an apt name, all the 'political' systems are frauds without exception, they are all based upon imposition and a slave master structure, your mother has clearly never read the Qur'an if she is under the delusion Allah promotes slavery.
The only choice is in natural law, allodial rights of use, polycentric community, and human energy economics, established as a personal choice, educating yourself in these concepts is the true Salat of Islam, establishing what you have learned is the true Dua, and creating what the Qur'an truly instructs is the true Islam.
Why are you being offensive? My mother knows the Koran by heart. Not because she has a different opinion than yours means that she is ignorant.
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Salaam Confused,
she promotes lies, and claims they are from the Qur'an, nowhere within Islam is a sovereign promoted, not even Muhammad can be your sovereign, as the Creator is the only sovereign, nor is a class system promoted, the reason Islam is so lost to the world is because people invent utter rubbish and claim to know the Qur'an by heart, evidently she only knows the sounds of the words, not what they are saying.
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Salaam Confused,
she promotes lies, and claims they are from the Qur'an, nowhere within Islam is a sovereign promoted, not even Muhammad can be your sovereign, as the Creator is the only sovereign, nor is a class system promoted, the reason Islam is so lost to the world is because people invent utter rubbish and claim to know the Qur'an by heart, evidently she only knows the sounds of the words, not what they are saying.
My mother does NOT promote lies. She interpreted a verse a specific way and that does not make her a liar. And obviously my dear you are the one who has no clue about the meaning of the Quran or you wouldn't be so lacking of manners! You are rude, offensive and arrogant and I will no longer respond to you.
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My mother does NOT promote lies. She interpreted a verse a specific way and that does not make her a liar. And obviously my dear you are the one who has no clue about the meaning of the Quran or you wouldn't be so lacking of manners! You are rude, offensive and arrogant and I will no longer respond to you.
It's a matter of perception; Quran interpretation is VERY serious. What might be a minor mishap to one person is a major falsehood to another person. So be careful. Don't worry about defending your parents, worry about defending JUSTICE for all.
And the quran provides every being their sovereignty with the chain being ALLH => messenger => authoritative ones => individual
{58}
Surely Allah commands you to make over trusts to their owners and that when you judge between people you judge with justice; surely Allah admonishes you with what is excellent; surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing.
{59}
O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.And proof of sovereignty of the individual
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And those who disbelieve say By no means will we believe in this Quran, nor in that which is before it; and could you see when the unjust shall be made to stand before their Lord, bandying words one with another! Those who were reckoned weak shall say to those who were proud Had it not been for you we would certainly have been believers.
{32}
Those who were proud shall say to those who were deemed weak Did we turn you away from the guidance after it had come to you? Nay, you (yourselves) were guilty
{33}
And those who were deemed weak shall say to those who were proud. Nay, (it was) planning by night and day when you told us to disbelieve in Allah and to set up likes with Him. And they shall conceal regret when they shall see the punishment; and We will put shackles on the necks of those who disbelieved; they shall not be requited but what they did.Remember we are ALL here as a test to enter hell or enter heaven. It doesn't matter about what ism you follow here on Earth, if it's unjust then off to the fire you go.
Peace
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It's a matter of perception; Quran interpretation is VERY serious. What might be a minor mishap to one person is a major falsehood to another person. So be careful. Don't worry about defending your parents, worry about defending JUSTICE for all.
And the quran provides every being their sovereignty with the chain being ALLH => messenger => authoritative ones => individual
{58}
Surely Allah commands you to make over trusts to their owners and that when you judge between people you judge with justice; surely Allah admonishes you with what is excellent; surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing.
{59}
O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.And proof of sovereignty of the individual
{31}
And those who disbelieve say By no means will we believe in this Quran, nor in that which is before it; and could you see when the unjust shall be made to stand before their Lord, bandying words one with another! Those who were reckoned weak shall say to those who were proud Had it not been for you we would certainly have been believers.
{32}
Those who were proud shall say to those who were deemed weak Did we turn you away from the guidance after it had come to you? Nay, you (yourselves) were guilty
{33}
And those who were deemed weak shall say to those who were proud. Nay, (it was) planning by night and day when you told us to disbelieve in Allah and to set up likes with Him. And they shall conceal regret when they shall see the punishment; and We will put shackles on the necks of those who disbelieved; they shall not be requited but what they did.Remember we are ALL here as a test to enter hell or enter heaven. It doesn't matter about what ism you follow here on Earth, if it's unjust then off to the fire you go.
Peace
I find it bizarre that you are sanctioning an insult just for the sake of "defending justice." Sorry where did I hear that again? Oh yeah, it was Bin Laden killing people because he thought he was doing it for "justice." "rolls eyes."
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Peace,
I am neutral here. I don't know either of the parties concerned. If you feel insulted that is your perogative, I strongly suggest being detached from your beliefs. When you attach your sense of self to your beliefs it can be very hurtful when those beliefs are destroyed. And as a truth seeker you should expect your beliefs to be crumbled repeatedly until you attain the immovable truth.
Tell me what's better in the long run, to feel good defending a falsehood or to have your beliefs crumbled and replaced by the truth! Again and again, no matter how much you love your mother, it will be every human for themselves on the judgement day. You and your God ALONE. So get with it in this life and please refer to the verses I quoted, no attachment to fellow human beings will save you on that day.
Peace and much love
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Peace,
I am neutral here. I don't know either of the parties concerned. If you feel insulted that is your perogative, I strongly suggest being detached from your beliefs. When you attach your sense of self to your beliefs it can be very hurtful when those beliefs are destroyed. And as a truth seeker you should expect your beliefs to be crumbled repeatedly until you attain the immovable truth.
Tell me what's better in the long run, to feel good defending a falsehood or to have your beliefs crumbled and replaced by the truth! Again and again, no matter how much you love your mother, it will be every human for themselves on the judgement day. You and your God ALONE. So get with it in this life and please refer to the verses I quoted, no attachment to fellow human beings will save you on that day.
Peace and much love
Not only are you contradicting yourself, but you are contradicting the entire essence of Free-Minds. I thought the whole idea about being a Quranist is that you challenge the stagnant stiff interpretation of the Quran and that you allow other people to freely interpret the verses as they see them, without interference of Hadith or tradition. But now you are calling people ignorant and accusing them of not having any knowledge of their own faith, just because they interpreted a verse differently than the way you did. Free Minds indeed!
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Salaam Confused,
a free mind is not conditioned to follow blindly, it demands evidence, not blind acceptance, it investigates that evidence and determines if it is fact or fiction, upon establishing all available facts a reasoned conclusion can be drawn and applied if applicable.
A closed mind accepts perceptions upon hearsay, happily propagating unmitigated conjecture, they bow to the authority of those who subjugate, exploit and enslave their fellow man, and defend their subjugation, even force, misguide or encourage those around them to that imposition.
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And what is evidence and truth and justice? And is there only one truth? And does my truth have to fit perfectly with yours? Besides nobody here asked me what my evidence was. I was just simply told that i come from an ignorant family. Twist it and justify it anyway you want, but that doesn't change the fact that there were words said here that were hurtful and completely unnecessary.
Anyway, forget it. I thought this subject would be interesting to discuss. Obviously not. -
Islam does not support Capitalism nor Socialism. The only sovereign is Allah with the only system being Islam, or natural law.
Anarchy is the only solution to the Capitalism/Socialism debate. As the Qur'an tells us we were ALL placed here as viceroys, there canot be a State where there are individals controling others. Humans are meant to control and govern themselves by following Islam and be interdependent when dealing with each other. This is the true and natural way.
Animals do not form governments, they abide by spontanious order. Everyone playing their part to take care of themselves and the whole. This is really how all of creation works. This is how humans are to be too without the need for a State. People who could not play their role because they were not skilled enough, intelligent enough or decided just not to play their role would not survive, and this is the natural way of things. That is natural selection.
Pure Communism seems it would be the ideal system for Islam, for it also advocates a Stateless, Classless society, but the fact that you have to have organizers and go through Socialism first to bring about Communism makes it flawed, because most (if not all) of the time those organizers remain in power and become the State and never move it past the Socialism phase. That's why Anarchism, the absent of classes and states without a organizing State force is the best solution.
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Pure Communism seems it would be the ideal system for Islam, for it also advocates a Stateless, Classless society, but the fact that you have to have organizers and go through Socialism first to bring about Communism makes it flawed, because most (if not all) of the time those organizers remain in power and become the State and never move it past the Socialism phase. That's why Anarchism, the absent of classes and states without a organizing State force is the best solution.
Dictator's that rule is a form of class, when it should be the "dictatorship of the proletariat" as Karl said for a true democracy, not some broken democracy shown elsewhere. If Most people take part, then most people receive according to need, not greed, a true form of sharing. Some people have so much land when some have none, some have so much food and some have none. All the sitting (if not spent in vain) excess money in the world (by the rich, religious organizations, etc.) could help many in need if everyone helped. I do not represent a political system, I only represent what is right.
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Dictator's that rule is a form of class, when it should be the "dictatorship of the proletariat" as Karl said for a true democracy, not some broken democracy shown elsewhere. If Most people take part, then most people receive according to need, not greed, a true form of sharing. Some people have so much land when some have none, some have so much food and some have none. All the sitting (if not spent in vain) excess money in the world (by the rich, religious organizations, etc.) could help many in need if everyone helped.
Exactly. Everyone working together as a COMMUNITY for the whole. The key word in COMMUNism is COMMUNITY. In an Anarchist society, there would be multiple communities taking care of one another, basically practicing pure communism on a small scale and each community being free to govern things in the best way for their small community. That is spontanious order and more ideal than multiple small communities coming together as one large community under communism, which would create problems due to cultural differences, etc.
One thing that is for certain is that Capitalism would not be accepted in Islam whatsoever. Capitalism is all about the profit instead of the well being of the whole. I can't help but to shake my head at the misguided Christian Americans who claim America, the largest Capitalist country in the world, is also a Christian one when Jesus would not have supported Capitalism in any type of way. He chased the merchants out of the temple!
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Some people have so much land when some have none, some have so much food and some have none. All the sitting (if not spent in vain) excess money in the world (by the rich, religious organizations, etc.) could help many in need if everyone helped. I do not represent a political system, I only represent what is right.
So where does the incentive for production come from?
One thing that is for certain is that Capitalism would not be accepted in Islam whatsoever. Capitalism is all about the profit instead of the well being of the whole. I can't help but to shake my head at the misguided Christian Americans who claim America, the largest Capitalist country in the world, is also a Christian one when Jesus would not have supported Capitalism in any type of way. He chased the merchants out of the temple!
I think this is an over-simplification and caricaturing of an economic system.
In fact, I think that socialism would be, ideologically and economically, the most antithetical system to Islam. Socialism is inherently coercive with nationalised industries and a huge all-encompassing state that has overwhelming control over the distribution of wealth and resources. That sounds terrible to me.
I love how people say that socialism has an intrinsically positive view of human nature with its belief in the community, when socialism is essentially based upon the coercion of others and a fundamental belief that people don't know what is good for them.
"Everyone is equal, some are just more equal than others." Socialism masquerades under a facade of equality. At least capitalism realises that equality cannot exist in its system and people are rewarded on their productivity (at least, that is the goal.)
Anyway, libertarianism seems, to me, the most viable economic system that would tie in with Islamic ideas of authority and charity.
Thanks
EDIT Sorry, Gnosis, this might seem like a tirade against you but it is not, more of a general reply. Just read what you said about anarchism and I would agree with you, but not on your view of capitalism. Cheers!)
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The Quran promotes a democratic socialist society!
Peace,
Edip -
The Quran promotes a democratic socialist society!
Peace,
EdipHow so?
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042.038
YUSUFALI Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance; -
Salaam Edip,
you make a strange declaration "democratic socialist society", the Qur'an would never promote such a ridiculous concept.
Your concept firstly is based within political authority. Political power defined as 'the threat of overwhelming force against the legally disarmed.'
That doesn't sound Islamic?
Legal is the direct opposite of lawful. We exist at present in a legal system, not a lawful system. Legalize ? to make legal or lawful in positive law; to confirm or validate what was before void or unlawful; to add the sanction and authority of positive law to that which before was without or against the law.
That doesn't sound Islamic?
Positive law is what we now suffer, and is always the product of political systems. In the positive law ?All crimes pertain to slaves.? As all crimes in positive law involve those who have a commercial obligation to another and the body of a debtor is security for his debt, which is why prisons are overflowing.
That doesn't sound Islamic?
What then is a slave?
Human Slavery- The state of subjugation and control held upon you, of a master owning the fruits of your severe toils, and drudgery in exchange for the ?benefits? you receive from your disadvantage. Slavery is a relation founded in force, not in right, existing, where it does, by force of positive law.
So in the present Riba models imposed globally, in there myriad forms we are all slaves.
That doesn't sound very Islamic?
Society is founded upon natural law, also know as the law of the land, but this law is hidden under positive legislative law, without the foundation of natural law you cannot have a society by definition, so what we suffer globally today is corporate culture.
That also doesn't sound Islamic?
Democracy was introduced in Europe by the Roman Catholic church, who needed a way to give the perception of moral justification to all legislation being imposed upon the people, and so the Pope introduced the fraud of democracy through Napoleon, where the majority vote for representatives who are selected by the church or the banks and dictate as directed, being a puppet show of authority.
Democracy is in direct opposition to the natural law of the land, as there is no such thing as a collective right in the law, and you cannot impose a contract upon any man or woman without them being a direct party to that contract.
Democracy is based upon 51% of the population dictating to 49% of the population, this is made even more unlawful with the introduction of representation, which elects a dictator into authority to invent positive law upon the slave population. Consider in a court of law the jury must establish a consensus verdict, not a democratic one.
Democracy doesn't sound Islamic?
Socialism also know as the nanny state is also unlawful, the incorporeal entity of state is invented as a legal instrument, based as a trust, a trust is based upon the Holy trinity of the Church that created the concept, the ?Father? as the grantor of the trust, so the executor, he invests the substance, the ?Son? is the administrator of the trust he is the trustee, who can gain no benefit himself, the ?Holy Ghost? is the incorporeal entity that holds the substance in a legal instrument
So we come to government. The regulation, restraint, supervision, or control which is exercised upon the individual members of an organised jural society by those invested with the supreme political authority, for the good and welfare of the 'corporation'.
The system that forms fundamental rules and principles by which a State governs the individual of the 'corporation', to regulate their social actions through rights and 'duties' of 'citizens' and public officers as prescribed and defined.
So in a government you exist for the welfare of the corporation and you must suffer positive law and be bound by the duties it invents, this means the invented incorporeal entity dominates all corporeal life.
That doesn't sound Islamic at all?
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Thanks guys for this amazing debate. Here is one of the verses that I was referring to earlier.
It is from Suret El Anam, Verse 165"And it is He who has made you successors upon the earth and has raised some of you above others in degrees that He may try you through what He has given you. Indeed, your Lord is swift in penalty; but indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful."
Why would God say that he as raised some of us above the others and created degrees of "rank," if he meant for all of us to be economically equal through a socialist or communist system? Or was God referring to something else in this verse?