Does Islam support a Capitalist or a Socialist system?
-
Salaam Confused,
she promotes lies, and claims they are from the Qur'an, nowhere within Islam is a sovereign promoted, not even Muhammad can be your sovereign, as the Creator is the only sovereign, nor is a class system promoted, the reason Islam is so lost to the world is because people invent utter rubbish and claim to know the Qur'an by heart, evidently she only knows the sounds of the words, not what they are saying.
-
Salaam Confused,
she promotes lies, and claims they are from the Qur'an, nowhere within Islam is a sovereign promoted, not even Muhammad can be your sovereign, as the Creator is the only sovereign, nor is a class system promoted, the reason Islam is so lost to the world is because people invent utter rubbish and claim to know the Qur'an by heart, evidently she only knows the sounds of the words, not what they are saying.
My mother does NOT promote lies. She interpreted a verse a specific way and that does not make her a liar. And obviously my dear you are the one who has no clue about the meaning of the Quran or you wouldn't be so lacking of manners! You are rude, offensive and arrogant and I will no longer respond to you.
-
My mother does NOT promote lies. She interpreted a verse a specific way and that does not make her a liar. And obviously my dear you are the one who has no clue about the meaning of the Quran or you wouldn't be so lacking of manners! You are rude, offensive and arrogant and I will no longer respond to you.
It's a matter of perception; Quran interpretation is VERY serious. What might be a minor mishap to one person is a major falsehood to another person. So be careful. Don't worry about defending your parents, worry about defending JUSTICE for all.
And the quran provides every being their sovereignty with the chain being ALLH => messenger => authoritative ones => individual
{58}
Surely Allah commands you to make over trusts to their owners and that when you judge between people you judge with justice; surely Allah admonishes you with what is excellent; surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing.
{59}
O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.And proof of sovereignty of the individual
{31}
And those who disbelieve say By no means will we believe in this Quran, nor in that which is before it; and could you see when the unjust shall be made to stand before their Lord, bandying words one with another! Those who were reckoned weak shall say to those who were proud Had it not been for you we would certainly have been believers.
{32}
Those who were proud shall say to those who were deemed weak Did we turn you away from the guidance after it had come to you? Nay, you (yourselves) were guilty
{33}
And those who were deemed weak shall say to those who were proud. Nay, (it was) planning by night and day when you told us to disbelieve in Allah and to set up likes with Him. And they shall conceal regret when they shall see the punishment; and We will put shackles on the necks of those who disbelieved; they shall not be requited but what they did.Remember we are ALL here as a test to enter hell or enter heaven. It doesn't matter about what ism you follow here on Earth, if it's unjust then off to the fire you go.
Peace
-
It's a matter of perception; Quran interpretation is VERY serious. What might be a minor mishap to one person is a major falsehood to another person. So be careful. Don't worry about defending your parents, worry about defending JUSTICE for all.
And the quran provides every being their sovereignty with the chain being ALLH => messenger => authoritative ones => individual
{58}
Surely Allah commands you to make over trusts to their owners and that when you judge between people you judge with justice; surely Allah admonishes you with what is excellent; surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing.
{59}
O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.And proof of sovereignty of the individual
{31}
And those who disbelieve say By no means will we believe in this Quran, nor in that which is before it; and could you see when the unjust shall be made to stand before their Lord, bandying words one with another! Those who were reckoned weak shall say to those who were proud Had it not been for you we would certainly have been believers.
{32}
Those who were proud shall say to those who were deemed weak Did we turn you away from the guidance after it had come to you? Nay, you (yourselves) were guilty
{33}
And those who were deemed weak shall say to those who were proud. Nay, (it was) planning by night and day when you told us to disbelieve in Allah and to set up likes with Him. And they shall conceal regret when they shall see the punishment; and We will put shackles on the necks of those who disbelieved; they shall not be requited but what they did.Remember we are ALL here as a test to enter hell or enter heaven. It doesn't matter about what ism you follow here on Earth, if it's unjust then off to the fire you go.
Peace
I find it bizarre that you are sanctioning an insult just for the sake of "defending justice." Sorry where did I hear that again? Oh yeah, it was Bin Laden killing people because he thought he was doing it for "justice." "rolls eyes."
-
Peace,
I am neutral here. I don't know either of the parties concerned. If you feel insulted that is your perogative, I strongly suggest being detached from your beliefs. When you attach your sense of self to your beliefs it can be very hurtful when those beliefs are destroyed. And as a truth seeker you should expect your beliefs to be crumbled repeatedly until you attain the immovable truth.
Tell me what's better in the long run, to feel good defending a falsehood or to have your beliefs crumbled and replaced by the truth! Again and again, no matter how much you love your mother, it will be every human for themselves on the judgement day. You and your God ALONE. So get with it in this life and please refer to the verses I quoted, no attachment to fellow human beings will save you on that day.
Peace and much love
-
Peace,
I am neutral here. I don't know either of the parties concerned. If you feel insulted that is your perogative, I strongly suggest being detached from your beliefs. When you attach your sense of self to your beliefs it can be very hurtful when those beliefs are destroyed. And as a truth seeker you should expect your beliefs to be crumbled repeatedly until you attain the immovable truth.
Tell me what's better in the long run, to feel good defending a falsehood or to have your beliefs crumbled and replaced by the truth! Again and again, no matter how much you love your mother, it will be every human for themselves on the judgement day. You and your God ALONE. So get with it in this life and please refer to the verses I quoted, no attachment to fellow human beings will save you on that day.
Peace and much love
Not only are you contradicting yourself, but you are contradicting the entire essence of Free-Minds. I thought the whole idea about being a Quranist is that you challenge the stagnant stiff interpretation of the Quran and that you allow other people to freely interpret the verses as they see them, without interference of Hadith or tradition. But now you are calling people ignorant and accusing them of not having any knowledge of their own faith, just because they interpreted a verse differently than the way you did. Free Minds indeed!
-
Salaam Confused,
a free mind is not conditioned to follow blindly, it demands evidence, not blind acceptance, it investigates that evidence and determines if it is fact or fiction, upon establishing all available facts a reasoned conclusion can be drawn and applied if applicable.
A closed mind accepts perceptions upon hearsay, happily propagating unmitigated conjecture, they bow to the authority of those who subjugate, exploit and enslave their fellow man, and defend their subjugation, even force, misguide or encourage those around them to that imposition.
-
And what is evidence and truth and justice? And is there only one truth? And does my truth have to fit perfectly with yours? Besides nobody here asked me what my evidence was. I was just simply told that i come from an ignorant family. Twist it and justify it anyway you want, but that doesn't change the fact that there were words said here that were hurtful and completely unnecessary.
Anyway, forget it. I thought this subject would be interesting to discuss. Obviously not. -
Islam does not support Capitalism nor Socialism. The only sovereign is Allah with the only system being Islam, or natural law.
Anarchy is the only solution to the Capitalism/Socialism debate. As the Qur'an tells us we were ALL placed here as viceroys, there canot be a State where there are individals controling others. Humans are meant to control and govern themselves by following Islam and be interdependent when dealing with each other. This is the true and natural way.
Animals do not form governments, they abide by spontanious order. Everyone playing their part to take care of themselves and the whole. This is really how all of creation works. This is how humans are to be too without the need for a State. People who could not play their role because they were not skilled enough, intelligent enough or decided just not to play their role would not survive, and this is the natural way of things. That is natural selection.
Pure Communism seems it would be the ideal system for Islam, for it also advocates a Stateless, Classless society, but the fact that you have to have organizers and go through Socialism first to bring about Communism makes it flawed, because most (if not all) of the time those organizers remain in power and become the State and never move it past the Socialism phase. That's why Anarchism, the absent of classes and states without a organizing State force is the best solution.
-
Pure Communism seems it would be the ideal system for Islam, for it also advocates a Stateless, Classless society, but the fact that you have to have organizers and go through Socialism first to bring about Communism makes it flawed, because most (if not all) of the time those organizers remain in power and become the State and never move it past the Socialism phase. That's why Anarchism, the absent of classes and states without a organizing State force is the best solution.
Dictator's that rule is a form of class, when it should be the "dictatorship of the proletariat" as Karl said for a true democracy, not some broken democracy shown elsewhere. If Most people take part, then most people receive according to need, not greed, a true form of sharing. Some people have so much land when some have none, some have so much food and some have none. All the sitting (if not spent in vain) excess money in the world (by the rich, religious organizations, etc.) could help many in need if everyone helped. I do not represent a political system, I only represent what is right.
-
Dictator's that rule is a form of class, when it should be the "dictatorship of the proletariat" as Karl said for a true democracy, not some broken democracy shown elsewhere. If Most people take part, then most people receive according to need, not greed, a true form of sharing. Some people have so much land when some have none, some have so much food and some have none. All the sitting (if not spent in vain) excess money in the world (by the rich, religious organizations, etc.) could help many in need if everyone helped.
Exactly. Everyone working together as a COMMUNITY for the whole. The key word in COMMUNism is COMMUNITY. In an Anarchist society, there would be multiple communities taking care of one another, basically practicing pure communism on a small scale and each community being free to govern things in the best way for their small community. That is spontanious order and more ideal than multiple small communities coming together as one large community under communism, which would create problems due to cultural differences, etc.
One thing that is for certain is that Capitalism would not be accepted in Islam whatsoever. Capitalism is all about the profit instead of the well being of the whole. I can't help but to shake my head at the misguided Christian Americans who claim America, the largest Capitalist country in the world, is also a Christian one when Jesus would not have supported Capitalism in any type of way. He chased the merchants out of the temple!
-
Some people have so much land when some have none, some have so much food and some have none. All the sitting (if not spent in vain) excess money in the world (by the rich, religious organizations, etc.) could help many in need if everyone helped. I do not represent a political system, I only represent what is right.
So where does the incentive for production come from?
One thing that is for certain is that Capitalism would not be accepted in Islam whatsoever. Capitalism is all about the profit instead of the well being of the whole. I can't help but to shake my head at the misguided Christian Americans who claim America, the largest Capitalist country in the world, is also a Christian one when Jesus would not have supported Capitalism in any type of way. He chased the merchants out of the temple!
I think this is an over-simplification and caricaturing of an economic system.
In fact, I think that socialism would be, ideologically and economically, the most antithetical system to Islam. Socialism is inherently coercive with nationalised industries and a huge all-encompassing state that has overwhelming control over the distribution of wealth and resources. That sounds terrible to me.
I love how people say that socialism has an intrinsically positive view of human nature with its belief in the community, when socialism is essentially based upon the coercion of others and a fundamental belief that people don't know what is good for them.
"Everyone is equal, some are just more equal than others." Socialism masquerades under a facade of equality. At least capitalism realises that equality cannot exist in its system and people are rewarded on their productivity (at least, that is the goal.)
Anyway, libertarianism seems, to me, the most viable economic system that would tie in with Islamic ideas of authority and charity.
Thanks
EDIT Sorry, Gnosis, this might seem like a tirade against you but it is not, more of a general reply. Just read what you said about anarchism and I would agree with you, but not on your view of capitalism. Cheers!)
-
The Quran promotes a democratic socialist society!
Peace,
Edip -
The Quran promotes a democratic socialist society!
Peace,
EdipHow so?
-
042.038
YUSUFALI Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance; -
Salaam Edip,
you make a strange declaration "democratic socialist society", the Qur'an would never promote such a ridiculous concept.
Your concept firstly is based within political authority. Political power defined as 'the threat of overwhelming force against the legally disarmed.'
That doesn't sound Islamic?
Legal is the direct opposite of lawful. We exist at present in a legal system, not a lawful system. Legalize ? to make legal or lawful in positive law; to confirm or validate what was before void or unlawful; to add the sanction and authority of positive law to that which before was without or against the law.
That doesn't sound Islamic?
Positive law is what we now suffer, and is always the product of political systems. In the positive law ?All crimes pertain to slaves.? As all crimes in positive law involve those who have a commercial obligation to another and the body of a debtor is security for his debt, which is why prisons are overflowing.
That doesn't sound Islamic?
What then is a slave?
Human Slavery- The state of subjugation and control held upon you, of a master owning the fruits of your severe toils, and drudgery in exchange for the ?benefits? you receive from your disadvantage. Slavery is a relation founded in force, not in right, existing, where it does, by force of positive law.
So in the present Riba models imposed globally, in there myriad forms we are all slaves.
That doesn't sound very Islamic?
Society is founded upon natural law, also know as the law of the land, but this law is hidden under positive legislative law, without the foundation of natural law you cannot have a society by definition, so what we suffer globally today is corporate culture.
That also doesn't sound Islamic?
Democracy was introduced in Europe by the Roman Catholic church, who needed a way to give the perception of moral justification to all legislation being imposed upon the people, and so the Pope introduced the fraud of democracy through Napoleon, where the majority vote for representatives who are selected by the church or the banks and dictate as directed, being a puppet show of authority.
Democracy is in direct opposition to the natural law of the land, as there is no such thing as a collective right in the law, and you cannot impose a contract upon any man or woman without them being a direct party to that contract.
Democracy is based upon 51% of the population dictating to 49% of the population, this is made even more unlawful with the introduction of representation, which elects a dictator into authority to invent positive law upon the slave population. Consider in a court of law the jury must establish a consensus verdict, not a democratic one.
Democracy doesn't sound Islamic?
Socialism also know as the nanny state is also unlawful, the incorporeal entity of state is invented as a legal instrument, based as a trust, a trust is based upon the Holy trinity of the Church that created the concept, the ?Father? as the grantor of the trust, so the executor, he invests the substance, the ?Son? is the administrator of the trust he is the trustee, who can gain no benefit himself, the ?Holy Ghost? is the incorporeal entity that holds the substance in a legal instrument
So we come to government. The regulation, restraint, supervision, or control which is exercised upon the individual members of an organised jural society by those invested with the supreme political authority, for the good and welfare of the 'corporation'.
The system that forms fundamental rules and principles by which a State governs the individual of the 'corporation', to regulate their social actions through rights and 'duties' of 'citizens' and public officers as prescribed and defined.
So in a government you exist for the welfare of the corporation and you must suffer positive law and be bound by the duties it invents, this means the invented incorporeal entity dominates all corporeal life.
That doesn't sound Islamic at all?
-
Thanks guys for this amazing debate. Here is one of the verses that I was referring to earlier.
It is from Suret El Anam, Verse 165"And it is He who has made you successors upon the earth and has raised some of you above others in degrees that He may try you through what He has given you. Indeed, your Lord is swift in penalty; but indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful."
Why would God say that he as raised some of us above the others and created degrees of "rank," if he meant for all of us to be economically equal through a socialist or communist system? Or was God referring to something else in this verse?
-
Peace
Consider our genetic differences some people are born with no legs, arms, etc; conversely on the other end of the spectrum some people are born with hyper intelligence or good looks, etc. Then there are bloodlines some bloodlines enjoy more power and prestige intrinsically than others. Just like in animal groupings.
That does not mean that we should be slaves one to another, the command is to serve ALLAH alone
931 - They take their doctors of law and their monks for Lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were enjoined that they should serve one God only -- there is no god but He. Be He glorified from what they set up (with Him)!
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
I'm not sure that AQ addresses government. It is like "asking" AQ what type of pizza is best. There are rules in general that would apply to the pizza (no pork flesh, remember ALLAH before eating, etc) but other details are not present as they do not pertain to the system of monotheism.
"What details would apply to government?"--that might provide answers. Any government fulfilling these details would work--it isn't limited to any one form. I'll try to list a few; others please join in.
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
6152 "And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reaches his independence; and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except with what it can bear, and if you speak then be just even if against a relative; and regarding the pledges made to GOD, you shall observe them. This He has enjoined you that you may remember."
785 And to Midyan, their brother Shu'ayb, he said "My people, serve GOD, you have no god besides Him. Clarity has come to you from your Lord, so give full weight and measure, and do not hold back from the people what belongs to them, and do not make corruption on the earth after it has been set right. That is better for you if you believe."
1185 "And my people, give full in the measure and the weight equitably, and do not hold back from the people what is theirs, and do not roam the land corrupting."
2567 And those who when they give they are not excessive nor stingy, but they are in a measure between that.
2282 O you who believe, if you borrow for a future period, then you shall record it. And let a scribe of justice record it for you; and let not the scribe refuse to record as GOD has taught him. Let him record and let the person who is borrowing dictate to him, and let him be aware of GOD, and let him not reduce from it anything. If the one who is borrowing is immature or weak or he cannot dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate with justice; and bring two witnesses from among your men; if there are not two men, then a man and two women from whom you will accept their testimony, so that if one of them becomes blindsided, then the one can remind the other. And let the witnesses not refuse to come if they are called. And do not fail to record it no matter how small or large until its maturity. That is more just with GOD and better for the testimony, and better that you do not have doubts; except if it is a trade to be done on the spot between you, then there is no sin upon you if you do not record it. And have evidence if you trade. No scribe shall be harmed nor any witness; for if you do so then it is a wickedness on your part, and be aware of GOD and GOD teaches you and GOD is aware of all things.
458 GOD orders you to deliver anything you have been entrusted with to its owners. And if you judge between the people, then you shall judge with justice. It is always the best that GOD prescribes for you. GOD is Hearer, Seer.
1733 And do not take a life, for GOD has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed innocently, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory.
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say "The excess." It is thus that GOD clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
1716 And if We wish to destroy a town, We allow its carefree to rule it, then they commit wickedness in it, then it deserves the punishment, then We destroy it completely.
This is by no means a complete list. ISA, it will help answer the original question.
ALLAH knows best!
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
-
So where does the incentive for production come from?
The question should be
What should the incentive be for production?
What I represent to you all below is not my writing but one I have come across here
http//www.dawn.com/2011/07/08/of-socialism-and-islam.html
Of socialism and Islam
From the Newspaper | Opinion | By Asghar Ali Engineer
July 8, 2011IS Islam compatible with socialism? The question is asked because to many ?socialism? means an atheistic philosophy, and at the very core of Islamic teachings is the belief in one God. How can then Islam and socialism go together?
However, this is not the correct view. Many noted ulema had accepted socialism as an essential part of Islamic teachings. In India, Maulana Hasrat Mohani and Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi enthusiastically supported the communist movement. Maulana Mohani was one of the founders of the Communist Party of India.
Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi, who had migrated to Afghanistan during the Khilafat movement and had formed a transition government there along with Mahendra Pratap Singh, left for Russia when the king of Afghanistan came under pressure from the British to expel the members of this government. In Moscow they met Lenin and discussed with him the strategies to fight British colonialism. Maulana Sindhi returned to India only in the early 1940s.
Allama Iqbal also paid rich tribute to socialism in his Khizar-i-Rah which he wrote after the decline of Usmani power in Turkey and on the eve of the Russian revolution. He also paid rich tribute to Marx and called him ?a man with a book? without being a prophet (peghambar neest wali dar baghal darad kitab).
He also wrote an interesting poem, Lenin Khuda Ke Huzur Mein (Lenin in the presence of God). W.C. Smith, a noted scholar of Islam and a left-leaning Christian priest who taught in Government College, Lahore in the 1930s, writes in his book, Islam in the Modern World, that Islam was the first organised socialist movement in the world.
Islam showed not only deep sympathy for the poor and downtrodden but also condemned strongly the concentration of wealth in a number of Makkan surahs. Makkah, as an important centre of international trade, was home to the very rich (tribal chiefs) and the extremely poor. Thus, in surahs 104 and 107, we find such condemnations. In one of the Madinese verses, 934, we find condemnation for concentration of wealth ??And those who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in Allah?s way ? announce to them a painful chastisement.?
Abu Dharr Ghaffari, one of the eminent companions of the Prophet (PBUH), used to recite this verse before those who would accumulate wealth; he would refuse to shake hands with such people. Thus, those whom Abu Dharr shook hands with would consider themselves proud and even boast about it. Abu Dharr was an uncompromising man when it came to principles, and because of that he died a lonely death in the desert of Rabza where he was exiled. His wife did not even have the money to buy a shroud for him and he was buried in his clothes.
The Quran even goes to the extent of advising the believers to spend all that which is more than one needs in Allah?s way. The word used by the Quran is ?afw?, i.e. whatever is left after meeting one?s basic needs. Thus, this verse, 2219, says, ?They ask you as to what they should spend. Say what is surplus with you?.
The instruction comes very close to the socialist formulation ?To each according to his need?. The Quran?s basic emphasis is on justice (adl), and in fact one of Allah?s name is Aadil, i.e. Just. Thus an unjust society cannot be an Islamic society.
Unfortunately, none of the Islamic countries today fulfill these Quranic criteria.
In the Quran, justice is so important that it says ?Do justice, it is closest to being pious? 58. It also says that justice must be done even if it goes against you and in favour of your enemy. Thus the Quran says, ?O you who believe, be maintainers of justice, bearers of witness for Allah, even though it be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives ? whether he be rich or poor (4135). And what is socialism but justice in a very comprehensive sense, including distributive justice. If these verses are read in conjunction with chapters 104 and 107 of the Quran, distributive justice cannot be excluded.The Quran also uses other terms to make its intention clear ?mustakbirun? and ?mustadifun?, i.e. the powerful and exploiters and the weak and exploited. These are really key terms in this respect. All of Allah?s prophets belonged to weaker sections of society, including Abraham, Moses and others, who fought against the powerful exploiters like Nimrod and the pharaoh.
According to the Quran, the struggle between mustakbirun and mustadifun will go on, and in the end it is the mustadifun who will triumph and will inherit this earth (285).
Thus the Quran is unmistakably in favour of the weaker section of society and predicts leadership (not dictatorship) of the proletariat. It is interesting to note that it was Imam Khomeini who drew our attention to this verse (285), and he also established Bonyaad-i-Mustazefeen (Foundation for the Weak) from the wealth of the rich, which he ordered to be confiscated.
But unfortunately, like other revolutions, the Iranian revolution was also hijacked by those with vested interests.
As soon as a political establishment comes into existence, vested interests develop around it and hijack it more often than not. Thus, a revolution needs constant vigilance by the weaker sections of society. The revolution that Islam had brought met the same fate within years of the death of the Prophet of Islam.
The writer is an Islamic scholar who also heads the Centre for Study of Society & Secularism, Mumbai.