Does Islam support a Capitalist or a Socialist system?
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Thanks guys for this amazing debate. Here is one of the verses that I was referring to earlier.
It is from Suret El Anam, Verse 165"And it is He who has made you successors upon the earth and has raised some of you above others in degrees that He may try you through what He has given you. Indeed, your Lord is swift in penalty; but indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful."
Why would God say that he as raised some of us above the others and created degrees of "rank," if he meant for all of us to be economically equal through a socialist or communist system? Or was God referring to something else in this verse?
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Peace
Consider our genetic differences some people are born with no legs, arms, etc; conversely on the other end of the spectrum some people are born with hyper intelligence or good looks, etc. Then there are bloodlines some bloodlines enjoy more power and prestige intrinsically than others. Just like in animal groupings.
That does not mean that we should be slaves one to another, the command is to serve ALLAH alone
931 - They take their doctors of law and their monks for Lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were enjoined that they should serve one God only -- there is no god but He. Be He glorified from what they set up (with Him)!
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Greetings and Peace, all group
I'm not sure that AQ addresses government. It is like "asking" AQ what type of pizza is best. There are rules in general that would apply to the pizza (no pork flesh, remember ALLAH before eating, etc) but other details are not present as they do not pertain to the system of monotheism.
"What details would apply to government?"--that might provide answers. Any government fulfilling these details would work--it isn't limited to any one form. I'll try to list a few; others please join in.
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
6152 "And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reaches his independence; and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except with what it can bear, and if you speak then be just even if against a relative; and regarding the pledges made to GOD, you shall observe them. This He has enjoined you that you may remember."
785 And to Midyan, their brother Shu'ayb, he said "My people, serve GOD, you have no god besides Him. Clarity has come to you from your Lord, so give full weight and measure, and do not hold back from the people what belongs to them, and do not make corruption on the earth after it has been set right. That is better for you if you believe."
1185 "And my people, give full in the measure and the weight equitably, and do not hold back from the people what is theirs, and do not roam the land corrupting."
2567 And those who when they give they are not excessive nor stingy, but they are in a measure between that.
2282 O you who believe, if you borrow for a future period, then you shall record it. And let a scribe of justice record it for you; and let not the scribe refuse to record as GOD has taught him. Let him record and let the person who is borrowing dictate to him, and let him be aware of GOD, and let him not reduce from it anything. If the one who is borrowing is immature or weak or he cannot dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate with justice; and bring two witnesses from among your men; if there are not two men, then a man and two women from whom you will accept their testimony, so that if one of them becomes blindsided, then the one can remind the other. And let the witnesses not refuse to come if they are called. And do not fail to record it no matter how small or large until its maturity. That is more just with GOD and better for the testimony, and better that you do not have doubts; except if it is a trade to be done on the spot between you, then there is no sin upon you if you do not record it. And have evidence if you trade. No scribe shall be harmed nor any witness; for if you do so then it is a wickedness on your part, and be aware of GOD and GOD teaches you and GOD is aware of all things.
458 GOD orders you to deliver anything you have been entrusted with to its owners. And if you judge between the people, then you shall judge with justice. It is always the best that GOD prescribes for you. GOD is Hearer, Seer.
1733 And do not take a life, for GOD has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed innocently, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory.
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say "The excess." It is thus that GOD clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
1716 And if We wish to destroy a town, We allow its carefree to rule it, then they commit wickedness in it, then it deserves the punishment, then We destroy it completely.
This is by no means a complete list. ISA, it will help answer the original question.
ALLAH knows best!
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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So where does the incentive for production come from?
The question should be
What should the incentive be for production?
What I represent to you all below is not my writing but one I have come across here
http//www.dawn.com/2011/07/08/of-socialism-and-islam.html
Of socialism and Islam
From the Newspaper | Opinion | By Asghar Ali Engineer
July 8, 2011IS Islam compatible with socialism? The question is asked because to many ?socialism? means an atheistic philosophy, and at the very core of Islamic teachings is the belief in one God. How can then Islam and socialism go together?
However, this is not the correct view. Many noted ulema had accepted socialism as an essential part of Islamic teachings. In India, Maulana Hasrat Mohani and Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi enthusiastically supported the communist movement. Maulana Mohani was one of the founders of the Communist Party of India.
Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi, who had migrated to Afghanistan during the Khilafat movement and had formed a transition government there along with Mahendra Pratap Singh, left for Russia when the king of Afghanistan came under pressure from the British to expel the members of this government. In Moscow they met Lenin and discussed with him the strategies to fight British colonialism. Maulana Sindhi returned to India only in the early 1940s.
Allama Iqbal also paid rich tribute to socialism in his Khizar-i-Rah which he wrote after the decline of Usmani power in Turkey and on the eve of the Russian revolution. He also paid rich tribute to Marx and called him ?a man with a book? without being a prophet (peghambar neest wali dar baghal darad kitab).
He also wrote an interesting poem, Lenin Khuda Ke Huzur Mein (Lenin in the presence of God). W.C. Smith, a noted scholar of Islam and a left-leaning Christian priest who taught in Government College, Lahore in the 1930s, writes in his book, Islam in the Modern World, that Islam was the first organised socialist movement in the world.
Islam showed not only deep sympathy for the poor and downtrodden but also condemned strongly the concentration of wealth in a number of Makkan surahs. Makkah, as an important centre of international trade, was home to the very rich (tribal chiefs) and the extremely poor. Thus, in surahs 104 and 107, we find such condemnations. In one of the Madinese verses, 934, we find condemnation for concentration of wealth ??And those who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in Allah?s way ? announce to them a painful chastisement.?
Abu Dharr Ghaffari, one of the eminent companions of the Prophet (PBUH), used to recite this verse before those who would accumulate wealth; he would refuse to shake hands with such people. Thus, those whom Abu Dharr shook hands with would consider themselves proud and even boast about it. Abu Dharr was an uncompromising man when it came to principles, and because of that he died a lonely death in the desert of Rabza where he was exiled. His wife did not even have the money to buy a shroud for him and he was buried in his clothes.
The Quran even goes to the extent of advising the believers to spend all that which is more than one needs in Allah?s way. The word used by the Quran is ?afw?, i.e. whatever is left after meeting one?s basic needs. Thus, this verse, 2219, says, ?They ask you as to what they should spend. Say what is surplus with you?.
The instruction comes very close to the socialist formulation ?To each according to his need?. The Quran?s basic emphasis is on justice (adl), and in fact one of Allah?s name is Aadil, i.e. Just. Thus an unjust society cannot be an Islamic society.
Unfortunately, none of the Islamic countries today fulfill these Quranic criteria.
In the Quran, justice is so important that it says ?Do justice, it is closest to being pious? 58. It also says that justice must be done even if it goes against you and in favour of your enemy. Thus the Quran says, ?O you who believe, be maintainers of justice, bearers of witness for Allah, even though it be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives ? whether he be rich or poor (4135). And what is socialism but justice in a very comprehensive sense, including distributive justice. If these verses are read in conjunction with chapters 104 and 107 of the Quran, distributive justice cannot be excluded.The Quran also uses other terms to make its intention clear ?mustakbirun? and ?mustadifun?, i.e. the powerful and exploiters and the weak and exploited. These are really key terms in this respect. All of Allah?s prophets belonged to weaker sections of society, including Abraham, Moses and others, who fought against the powerful exploiters like Nimrod and the pharaoh.
According to the Quran, the struggle between mustakbirun and mustadifun will go on, and in the end it is the mustadifun who will triumph and will inherit this earth (285).
Thus the Quran is unmistakably in favour of the weaker section of society and predicts leadership (not dictatorship) of the proletariat. It is interesting to note that it was Imam Khomeini who drew our attention to this verse (285), and he also established Bonyaad-i-Mustazefeen (Foundation for the Weak) from the wealth of the rich, which he ordered to be confiscated.
But unfortunately, like other revolutions, the Iranian revolution was also hijacked by those with vested interests.
As soon as a political establishment comes into existence, vested interests develop around it and hijack it more often than not. Thus, a revolution needs constant vigilance by the weaker sections of society. The revolution that Islam had brought met the same fate within years of the death of the Prophet of Islam.
The writer is an Islamic scholar who also heads the Centre for Study of Society & Secularism, Mumbai.
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Thanks guys for this amazing debate. Here is one of the verses that I was referring to earlier.
It is from Suret El Anam, Verse 165"And it is He who has made you successors upon the earth and has raised some of you above others in degrees that He may try you through what He has given you. Indeed, your Lord is swift in penalty; but indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful."
Why would God say that he as raised some of us above the others and created degrees of "rank," if he meant for all of us to be economically equal through a socialist or communist system? Or was God referring to something else in this verse?
Some have higher intelligence then others, hence they have the mental capacity to control a situation that would cause confusion for another, we all take part in running a unique system, but to take advantage of individual when we all do our duty is exploitation, thus our intellect, physical ability, agility, etc. are different degrees (Ranks) in an individuals conduct. A talent so to speak.
For example I would rather be under al ad-Dn Ysuf ibn Ayyb command rather than me leading the people at the time of is conquest, yet when he died it says that "Saladin died of a fever on March 4, 1193, at Damascus, not long after Richard's departure. In Saladin?s possession at the time of his death were 1 piece of gold and 47 pieces of silver. He had given away his great wealth to his poor subjects and there was none left to pay for his funeral." http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin#Death
Of course Capitalism is going to be addressed in the Qur'an, Muhammad was raised into it, Socialism seems as an evolution for betterment it should be "For the people, by the people" but it's more like by the people for the rich. I am not a Star Trek fan but I love the lore that the human race had come to the point on earth that there is no need for money.
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I know that my answer was no answer; it was just a declaration of my belief without justification.
I know there are plenty of misconceptions and entangled political issues... I know that the Quran concider the capitalistic system unethical, corrupt, and diabolic. I am also aware of the problems posed by totalitarian governments in the name of socialism. I am intending to discuss this issue in more detail in an article God willing. The economic issues cannot be discussed without political issues; they are intertwined. The Soviet version of socialism failed because it did not envision democracy; rather promoted communist party's dictatorship...
I believe that most of the following characteristics are inspired by Quranic principles and all are based on reasoned human experiences, and they should be incorporated in the constitution of nations
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Balances modern powers, such as media and corporations, to create the government of people by people and for people.
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Aims to eliminate the role and influence of money in political system through separation of government from corporations, which we call it nocorpism or nopigism. As Jesus expelled the money-changers from the temple, we should also expel the corporate lobbyists, the hoarders and greedy pigs from bribing public pervants and spreading their disease in public offices.
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Bans the privatization of military industrial complex to promote domestic and global peace, to eliminate the wars-for-profit.
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Proposes federal secularism and allows more room for reflection of cultural and religious differences within the limits of the constitution. Provides protection for atheists and heretics.
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Creates a new branch through lottery election to monitor the financial transactions of congressmen and other high ranking public officers.
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Introduces automatic expiration date for the constitution so that each generation will be given the opportunity to live under their own constitution.
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Guarantees for each citizen the necessities of life, such as food, shelter, education and primary health care through work or social programs.
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Reduces the power and profits of banks, speculators, and financial institutions. As the government is for the people, not vice versa, the corporations will be for the people, not vice versa.
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Promotes competition and excellence, yet at the same time promotes cooperation and sharing among citizens.
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Requires critical thinking and philosophy among the core curriculum in education.
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Rejects the capitalistic dogmas, propaganda and consumerism that allowed big corporations to recklessly exploit workers, manipulate consumers, waste limited natural resources and pollute the environment.
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Provides maximum protection for individual freedoms and rights.
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Emphasizes the importance of human life, compassion and respect to nature andreflects those values in the proposed design of the new flag.
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And more?
For more information, you may look at
http//19.org/534/constitution/
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AOA
I'm not sure that AQ addresses government. It is like "asking" AQ what type of pizza is best
In agreement.
Since no two individuals appear to agree on definition of any one particular system it is then equally difficult to try to interpert the verses to fit any particular ystem. For me the Quran is clear in advocating will of the people (democracy or any other name you care to give). How the rest of the system evolves depends on the particular society and their overall 'collective' values. As long as the system has accountability to the masses & is fair, just and looks after the weak and poor then I cannot see any contradiction with Islam.
Since the proof of the pudding lies in eating. History has taught us that the most successful system to date is democracy (with warts and all). As long as the people of Egypt are allowed to exerrcise their will and the system is constantly accountable to them. Eventually the society will become prosperous and more just, even though it may take decades for a tree planted today may not yield fruit generation(s) later
Regards -
Capitalism is the natural form of commerce found in the Quran.
What the Quran is calling for is for a person to believe in God, the last day and becoming a socialist in a capitalist economy ie. investing in God's way willingly for the afterlife.
Benefiting from a capitalistic economy rather than this investment will render you empty in the next life.
The incentive for getting more money is that you are working for God creating a good debt that God will repay on J-day.
That is the core teaching of the Quran, in my opinion. It is the Jihad/struggle the Quran keeps talking about. Without it, even if you are just, makes you with a zero balance in the next life.
A work is only 'GOOD' when it is for God without benefit in this life ie. charitable work and givings.
The Mushriks were not criminals, they didn't murder, rape or steal, actually they had punishments against basic crimes, but they didn't want to invest in the next life because they didn't believe in it.
Chapter 92 conveys this understanding rather beautifully;
921 By the night when it covers.
922 And by the day when it appears.
923 And by what He has created, the male and female.
924 Your works are various.
925 As for he who gives and is righteous.
926 And trusts in goodness. (the requital of the afterlife)
927 We will make for him the easy path.
928 And as for he who is stingy and holds back.
929 And denies goodness.
9210 We will make for him the difficult path.
9211 And his wealth will not avail him when he demises.
9212 It is upon Us to guide.
9213 And to Us is the end and the beginning.
9214 I have warned you of a Fire that blazes.
9215 None shall have it except the wicked.
9216 The one who denies and turns away.
9217 As for the righteous, he will be spared it.
9218 The one who gives his money to purify.
9219 Seeking nothing in return.
9220 Except the face of His Lord, the Most High.
9221 And he will be pleased.Peace!
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Hi Everyone,
I would say that the Quran dictates both a Social and Capitalistic society. Capitalistic in that you must trade with others and do business with others for your own livelihood. On the flip side it says that you have to do social justice. Feed poor people, take care of widows and orphans, take care of the sick. Pure Capitalism would have everyone do whatever it takes to push people down so you can get ahead. This is the problem with Capitalism. Pure Socialism would ensure that no one could get that far ahead of anyone else. That is the problem with Socialism... no motivation to get ahead. The Quran says be honest in trade (honest Capitalism) and take care of the poor, sick, orphans, widows or needy (honest Socialism). It presents a nice blend of the two. I think one way or the other isn't a good balance.
Just my thoughts.
peace Shalom, Salam, Peace peace
JewishDude -
Salaam,
I previously gave the lawful definitions of several terms which people continue to misrepresent in this thread, if we look at capitalism it is again misrepresented.
Capitalism is an economic system that values capital, that is the idea of pecuniary wealth being valued and perceived as the generator of wealth within the capitalistic propaganda. This idea is the foundation of the capitalistic doctrine.
In reality this is a fraud, capital generates nothing, it is a mechanism of riba, those who hold the monopoly on capital exploit and enslave those who must beg for the use of that capital.
This is due to the system of Riba placed upon the corporate culture installed by the Roman Catholic Church, people confuse an open labour trading system for a capitalist one.
The only generator of wealth, products, technology is human labour, not capital, capital is used to restrict that activity and to concentrate the benefits of that labour into the hands of those who hold the capital monopoly.
An Islamic system would remove the monopoly of capital, not support it, I have explained on my website the idea of a repository that provides any community with infinite advancements of their labours without holding vast pecuniary capital, based upon a surety bond, contract and local community cell within a polycentric order, based within natural law of the land.
That is the Islamic society.
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Peace all,
To all those who have children, I would like you to describe the political system that you are using to manage your family as parents? is it a Democratic system or a dictatorship? And why?
Also, for those who happen to live within big families with grandparents and uncles und anties, what kind of political and economic system are used to manage the relations?
I am a father of two kids (2 yay and 7 ignore yo) and I can say that in some situations, I act like a dictator police police to be able to handle things. muscle , Am I normal confused ?
Sorry for being off topic...
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Salaam Someone,
in law a man or woman who needs another to make decisions or represent them are seen in the law as mentally incompetent, a child is not competent to deal with their own affairs, so the parent takes on the responsibility of knowing what is best for the child.
Democracy is not lawful, it is a trick to fool the stupid into thinking they are a part of the system upon them, but in truth that system is designed by the accumulated wealth elite and functions solely for their benefit.
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Salam Abdun Nur,
I see your point about mental incapacity, but who should be the judge to decide for such incapacity?
You know, some learned people may/do consider the unlearned (majority of)people as mentally incompetent, and thus they see no problem in deciding what is best for this majority, from their point of view. The results for the community will then depend on the degree of benevolence of the learned elite.
As long as there is a majority is unlearned/uneducated people, I think that no system can improve their situation on the long term. The only way is to diffuse knowledge and help people emancipate, to be able to defend their rights without forgeting to always work towards the common wellness. I think this is the message of al-quran to "ahl alkitab" the learned.
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Salaam Someone,
in law a man or woman who needs another to make decisions or represent them are seen in the law as mentally incompetent, a child is not competent to deal with their own affairs, so the parent takes on the responsibility of knowing what is best for the child.
Democracy is not lawful, it is a trick to fool the stupid into thinking they are a part of the system upon them, but in truth that system is designed by the accumulated wealth elite and functions solely for their benefit.
I suggest you take an IQ test, you might just get the highest score ever, but even if you don't it wouldn't matter because it's not that accurate, still I think you're an extraordinary genius
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As long as there is a majority is unlearned/uneducated people, I think that no system can improve their situation on the long term. The only way is to diffuse knowledge and help people emancipate, to be able to defend their rights without forgeting to always work towards the common wellness. I think this is the message of al-quran to "ahl alkitab" the learned.
Hey there,
That's an interesting idea. What I would say is why should people have to be learned and educated? I mean, the common man/woman, with an incredibly busy lifestyle trying to balance so many things, cannot be expected to be educated on the complexities of the economy and foreign policy (especially in the joke of democracy we have now where 90% of candidates say the same thing).
However, what has been proven time and time again, is that people are incredibly well-educated when it comes to their own lives. People make thought out decisions depending on their own situation and the situations of those close to them.
That's why a socialist state is such an abhorrent idea to me (note that I used to be a massive socialist until I read libertarian works of Friedman and Hayek) The fact that a socialist state would act on your behalf as though it knows what is best for you is, in my opinion, the biggest fallacy in the system. PEOPLE know what is best for them. If we leave them to it, perhaps we could get on with our lives.
So when you say "common wellness", I'm not sure what you mean. What is the common wellness? Is it the utilitarian ideal of "the greatest happiness for the greatest number"?
Thanks
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Salaam Someone,
in law a man or woman who needs another to make decisions or represent them are seen in the law as mentally incompetent, a child is not competent to deal with their own affairs, so the parent takes on the responsibility of knowing what is best for the child.
Democracy is not lawful, it is a trick to fool the stupid into thinking they are a part of the system upon them, but in truth that system is designed by the accumulated wealth elite and functions solely for their benefit.
Exactly. The greatest conspiracy in the world is that politicians and presidents are not legally required to uphold their manifestos and can completely disregard their mandates when in power.
Just thinking about Obama and how he appointed Larry Summers and Ben Bernake as his financial advisors (people who cause the meltdown) makes my blood boil.
I stayed up all night to watch that guy get inaugurated. I honestly thought the world was going to change.
What a joke.
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My two cents---
We need an EXTREMELY LIMITED FEDERAL GOV AND LOCAL GOV'S---- forget towns and cities---power should be held at the level of the NEIBORHOOD!!!!!!
The fed should rely on funding from the bottom up. Also as far as economics is concerned---Their should be NO CORPORATIONS AND NO FRANCHISES---people should be very limited to the number of business entities they can own and inherit, the amount of land they can acquire, EVERYTHING SHOULD BE SMALL BUSINESSES EVERYWHERE THE WORLD OVER--- all franchises should be allowed to keep their largest holding but should be forced to sell or gift everything else to private individuals---
Also I think that charity should be VOLUNTARY AND PRIVATE, EDUCATION SHOULD BE PRIVATE, and everything else all so called public goods--I do not think that government has anything to do with welfare---it invites corruption! Therefore the basic unit of society should not be towns but neiborhoods---literally I think all townships and cities ought to be DEFRANCHISED------except for a small counsel that sets the laws for so many neiborhoods---it would collect the funds of the FEDERAL GOV by taking money VOLUNTARILY from the people during town hall type meetings---literally the feds would have to get its gold from a churches collection plate or a top hat or tip jar like you see in diners. No joke.
Real money is GOLD, SILVER AND other precious metals and diamonds etc----
As far as regulation of business is concerned it should be up to NEIBORHOOD COUNSELS to get together and find out what is right.---The federal government should be only to direct the military (which should be composed of private militias and a voluntary national guard.) Also the method of regulation of business is reputation--if a employer does something bad like shorting his customers it would be the duty of all the people of the nighborhood to start a very vocal protest against them--picket them--right bad reviews, hold signs that say 'dont shop here--they are ____ and they did ____ to ___" whatever--somebody messes up then they should be put straight into the unemployed market.
The police should be there to handle the big problems like riots or murders or whatnot everything else should defer to PRIVATE ARBITRATION----as much as possible---
sun
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Salaam Herring,
reading your comments you are partly correct and partly wrong, firstly making laws. The law of the land, known as natural law, which is fully explained in this community contract, http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/178/235/ is inalienable and immutable. The idea of needing legislation which you suggest in your post is in fact in opposition to law, as it makes what is unlawful into positive law.
Positive law is authoritarian law, and applies only to slaves.
The second problem you have suggested is business, in the present model of business based upon Riba, a concept few wish to grasp, you have an unlawful relationship, this lends itself to corruption, fraud and division, exploitation and monopoly.
Within the contract of community linked above, I also explain the natural law business model.
You need no more than the contract of community to free yourself, in the case of ownership a clear fraud in itself I conceived an allodium claim affidavit to remove it, and a friend of mine who had been evicted from his home by the courts for the banking corporation used my advice, and the courts were forced to give him back his home, he has no debt to the bank and is now on good terms with the local corporate policy enforces (police).
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Salam everyone and especially Confused
Capitalism and socialism cannot be compared, just like apples and pears cannot be compared. They have two completely different agendas, one is an economic system and one is an ideological system. Where is this ying-yang comparison coming from?.....I blame America....
Coming from a social democratic country I can with my entire heart say that if one can interpret the Quran into a political manifesto it will certainly be social democracy, at least the type that I live in.
I agree with Edip.