Does Islam support a Capitalist or a Socialist system?
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Thanks guys for this amazing debate. Here is one of the verses that I was referring to earlier.
It is from Suret El Anam, Verse 165"And it is He who has made you successors upon the earth and has raised some of you above others in degrees that He may try you through what He has given you. Indeed, your Lord is swift in penalty; but indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful."
Why would God say that he as raised some of us above the others and created degrees of "rank," if he meant for all of us to be economically equal through a socialist or communist system? Or was God referring to something else in this verse?
Some have higher intelligence then others, hence they have the mental capacity to control a situation that would cause confusion for another, we all take part in running a unique system, but to take advantage of individual when we all do our duty is exploitation, thus our intellect, physical ability, agility, etc. are different degrees (Ranks) in an individuals conduct. A talent so to speak.
For example I would rather be under al ad-Dn Ysuf ibn Ayyb command rather than me leading the people at the time of is conquest, yet when he died it says that "Saladin died of a fever on March 4, 1193, at Damascus, not long after Richard's departure. In Saladin?s possession at the time of his death were 1 piece of gold and 47 pieces of silver. He had given away his great wealth to his poor subjects and there was none left to pay for his funeral." http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin#Death
Of course Capitalism is going to be addressed in the Qur'an, Muhammad was raised into it, Socialism seems as an evolution for betterment it should be "For the people, by the people" but it's more like by the people for the rich. I am not a Star Trek fan but I love the lore that the human race had come to the point on earth that there is no need for money.
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I know that my answer was no answer; it was just a declaration of my belief without justification.
I know there are plenty of misconceptions and entangled political issues... I know that the Quran concider the capitalistic system unethical, corrupt, and diabolic. I am also aware of the problems posed by totalitarian governments in the name of socialism. I am intending to discuss this issue in more detail in an article God willing. The economic issues cannot be discussed without political issues; they are intertwined. The Soviet version of socialism failed because it did not envision democracy; rather promoted communist party's dictatorship...
I believe that most of the following characteristics are inspired by Quranic principles and all are based on reasoned human experiences, and they should be incorporated in the constitution of nations
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Balances modern powers, such as media and corporations, to create the government of people by people and for people.
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Aims to eliminate the role and influence of money in political system through separation of government from corporations, which we call it nocorpism or nopigism. As Jesus expelled the money-changers from the temple, we should also expel the corporate lobbyists, the hoarders and greedy pigs from bribing public pervants and spreading their disease in public offices.
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Bans the privatization of military industrial complex to promote domestic and global peace, to eliminate the wars-for-profit.
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Proposes federal secularism and allows more room for reflection of cultural and religious differences within the limits of the constitution. Provides protection for atheists and heretics.
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Creates a new branch through lottery election to monitor the financial transactions of congressmen and other high ranking public officers.
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Introduces automatic expiration date for the constitution so that each generation will be given the opportunity to live under their own constitution.
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Guarantees for each citizen the necessities of life, such as food, shelter, education and primary health care through work or social programs.
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Reduces the power and profits of banks, speculators, and financial institutions. As the government is for the people, not vice versa, the corporations will be for the people, not vice versa.
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Promotes competition and excellence, yet at the same time promotes cooperation and sharing among citizens.
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Requires critical thinking and philosophy among the core curriculum in education.
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Rejects the capitalistic dogmas, propaganda and consumerism that allowed big corporations to recklessly exploit workers, manipulate consumers, waste limited natural resources and pollute the environment.
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Provides maximum protection for individual freedoms and rights.
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Emphasizes the importance of human life, compassion and respect to nature andreflects those values in the proposed design of the new flag.
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And more?
For more information, you may look at
http//19.org/534/constitution/
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AOA
I'm not sure that AQ addresses government. It is like "asking" AQ what type of pizza is best
In agreement.
Since no two individuals appear to agree on definition of any one particular system it is then equally difficult to try to interpert the verses to fit any particular ystem. For me the Quran is clear in advocating will of the people (democracy or any other name you care to give). How the rest of the system evolves depends on the particular society and their overall 'collective' values. As long as the system has accountability to the masses & is fair, just and looks after the weak and poor then I cannot see any contradiction with Islam.
Since the proof of the pudding lies in eating. History has taught us that the most successful system to date is democracy (with warts and all). As long as the people of Egypt are allowed to exerrcise their will and the system is constantly accountable to them. Eventually the society will become prosperous and more just, even though it may take decades for a tree planted today may not yield fruit generation(s) later
Regards -
Capitalism is the natural form of commerce found in the Quran.
What the Quran is calling for is for a person to believe in God, the last day and becoming a socialist in a capitalist economy ie. investing in God's way willingly for the afterlife.
Benefiting from a capitalistic economy rather than this investment will render you empty in the next life.
The incentive for getting more money is that you are working for God creating a good debt that God will repay on J-day.
That is the core teaching of the Quran, in my opinion. It is the Jihad/struggle the Quran keeps talking about. Without it, even if you are just, makes you with a zero balance in the next life.
A work is only 'GOOD' when it is for God without benefit in this life ie. charitable work and givings.
The Mushriks were not criminals, they didn't murder, rape or steal, actually they had punishments against basic crimes, but they didn't want to invest in the next life because they didn't believe in it.
Chapter 92 conveys this understanding rather beautifully;
921 By the night when it covers.
922 And by the day when it appears.
923 And by what He has created, the male and female.
924 Your works are various.
925 As for he who gives and is righteous.
926 And trusts in goodness. (the requital of the afterlife)
927 We will make for him the easy path.
928 And as for he who is stingy and holds back.
929 And denies goodness.
9210 We will make for him the difficult path.
9211 And his wealth will not avail him when he demises.
9212 It is upon Us to guide.
9213 And to Us is the end and the beginning.
9214 I have warned you of a Fire that blazes.
9215 None shall have it except the wicked.
9216 The one who denies and turns away.
9217 As for the righteous, he will be spared it.
9218 The one who gives his money to purify.
9219 Seeking nothing in return.
9220 Except the face of His Lord, the Most High.
9221 And he will be pleased.Peace!
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Hi Everyone,
I would say that the Quran dictates both a Social and Capitalistic society. Capitalistic in that you must trade with others and do business with others for your own livelihood. On the flip side it says that you have to do social justice. Feed poor people, take care of widows and orphans, take care of the sick. Pure Capitalism would have everyone do whatever it takes to push people down so you can get ahead. This is the problem with Capitalism. Pure Socialism would ensure that no one could get that far ahead of anyone else. That is the problem with Socialism... no motivation to get ahead. The Quran says be honest in trade (honest Capitalism) and take care of the poor, sick, orphans, widows or needy (honest Socialism). It presents a nice blend of the two. I think one way or the other isn't a good balance.
Just my thoughts.
peace Shalom, Salam, Peace peace
JewishDude -
Salaam,
I previously gave the lawful definitions of several terms which people continue to misrepresent in this thread, if we look at capitalism it is again misrepresented.
Capitalism is an economic system that values capital, that is the idea of pecuniary wealth being valued and perceived as the generator of wealth within the capitalistic propaganda. This idea is the foundation of the capitalistic doctrine.
In reality this is a fraud, capital generates nothing, it is a mechanism of riba, those who hold the monopoly on capital exploit and enslave those who must beg for the use of that capital.
This is due to the system of Riba placed upon the corporate culture installed by the Roman Catholic Church, people confuse an open labour trading system for a capitalist one.
The only generator of wealth, products, technology is human labour, not capital, capital is used to restrict that activity and to concentrate the benefits of that labour into the hands of those who hold the capital monopoly.
An Islamic system would remove the monopoly of capital, not support it, I have explained on my website the idea of a repository that provides any community with infinite advancements of their labours without holding vast pecuniary capital, based upon a surety bond, contract and local community cell within a polycentric order, based within natural law of the land.
That is the Islamic society.
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Peace all,
To all those who have children, I would like you to describe the political system that you are using to manage your family as parents? is it a Democratic system or a dictatorship? And why?
Also, for those who happen to live within big families with grandparents and uncles und anties, what kind of political and economic system are used to manage the relations?
I am a father of two kids (2 yay and 7 ignore yo) and I can say that in some situations, I act like a dictator police police to be able to handle things. muscle , Am I normal confused ?
Sorry for being off topic...
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Salaam Someone,
in law a man or woman who needs another to make decisions or represent them are seen in the law as mentally incompetent, a child is not competent to deal with their own affairs, so the parent takes on the responsibility of knowing what is best for the child.
Democracy is not lawful, it is a trick to fool the stupid into thinking they are a part of the system upon them, but in truth that system is designed by the accumulated wealth elite and functions solely for their benefit.
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Salam Abdun Nur,
I see your point about mental incapacity, but who should be the judge to decide for such incapacity?
You know, some learned people may/do consider the unlearned (majority of)people as mentally incompetent, and thus they see no problem in deciding what is best for this majority, from their point of view. The results for the community will then depend on the degree of benevolence of the learned elite.
As long as there is a majority is unlearned/uneducated people, I think that no system can improve their situation on the long term. The only way is to diffuse knowledge and help people emancipate, to be able to defend their rights without forgeting to always work towards the common wellness. I think this is the message of al-quran to "ahl alkitab" the learned.
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Salaam Someone,
in law a man or woman who needs another to make decisions or represent them are seen in the law as mentally incompetent, a child is not competent to deal with their own affairs, so the parent takes on the responsibility of knowing what is best for the child.
Democracy is not lawful, it is a trick to fool the stupid into thinking they are a part of the system upon them, but in truth that system is designed by the accumulated wealth elite and functions solely for their benefit.
I suggest you take an IQ test, you might just get the highest score ever, but even if you don't it wouldn't matter because it's not that accurate, still I think you're an extraordinary genius
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As long as there is a majority is unlearned/uneducated people, I think that no system can improve their situation on the long term. The only way is to diffuse knowledge and help people emancipate, to be able to defend their rights without forgeting to always work towards the common wellness. I think this is the message of al-quran to "ahl alkitab" the learned.
Hey there,
That's an interesting idea. What I would say is why should people have to be learned and educated? I mean, the common man/woman, with an incredibly busy lifestyle trying to balance so many things, cannot be expected to be educated on the complexities of the economy and foreign policy (especially in the joke of democracy we have now where 90% of candidates say the same thing).
However, what has been proven time and time again, is that people are incredibly well-educated when it comes to their own lives. People make thought out decisions depending on their own situation and the situations of those close to them.
That's why a socialist state is such an abhorrent idea to me (note that I used to be a massive socialist until I read libertarian works of Friedman and Hayek) The fact that a socialist state would act on your behalf as though it knows what is best for you is, in my opinion, the biggest fallacy in the system. PEOPLE know what is best for them. If we leave them to it, perhaps we could get on with our lives.
So when you say "common wellness", I'm not sure what you mean. What is the common wellness? Is it the utilitarian ideal of "the greatest happiness for the greatest number"?
Thanks
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Salaam Someone,
in law a man or woman who needs another to make decisions or represent them are seen in the law as mentally incompetent, a child is not competent to deal with their own affairs, so the parent takes on the responsibility of knowing what is best for the child.
Democracy is not lawful, it is a trick to fool the stupid into thinking they are a part of the system upon them, but in truth that system is designed by the accumulated wealth elite and functions solely for their benefit.
Exactly. The greatest conspiracy in the world is that politicians and presidents are not legally required to uphold their manifestos and can completely disregard their mandates when in power.
Just thinking about Obama and how he appointed Larry Summers and Ben Bernake as his financial advisors (people who cause the meltdown) makes my blood boil.
I stayed up all night to watch that guy get inaugurated. I honestly thought the world was going to change.
What a joke.
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My two cents---
We need an EXTREMELY LIMITED FEDERAL GOV AND LOCAL GOV'S---- forget towns and cities---power should be held at the level of the NEIBORHOOD!!!!!!
The fed should rely on funding from the bottom up. Also as far as economics is concerned---Their should be NO CORPORATIONS AND NO FRANCHISES---people should be very limited to the number of business entities they can own and inherit, the amount of land they can acquire, EVERYTHING SHOULD BE SMALL BUSINESSES EVERYWHERE THE WORLD OVER--- all franchises should be allowed to keep their largest holding but should be forced to sell or gift everything else to private individuals---
Also I think that charity should be VOLUNTARY AND PRIVATE, EDUCATION SHOULD BE PRIVATE, and everything else all so called public goods--I do not think that government has anything to do with welfare---it invites corruption! Therefore the basic unit of society should not be towns but neiborhoods---literally I think all townships and cities ought to be DEFRANCHISED------except for a small counsel that sets the laws for so many neiborhoods---it would collect the funds of the FEDERAL GOV by taking money VOLUNTARILY from the people during town hall type meetings---literally the feds would have to get its gold from a churches collection plate or a top hat or tip jar like you see in diners. No joke.
Real money is GOLD, SILVER AND other precious metals and diamonds etc----
As far as regulation of business is concerned it should be up to NEIBORHOOD COUNSELS to get together and find out what is right.---The federal government should be only to direct the military (which should be composed of private militias and a voluntary national guard.) Also the method of regulation of business is reputation--if a employer does something bad like shorting his customers it would be the duty of all the people of the nighborhood to start a very vocal protest against them--picket them--right bad reviews, hold signs that say 'dont shop here--they are ____ and they did ____ to ___" whatever--somebody messes up then they should be put straight into the unemployed market.
The police should be there to handle the big problems like riots or murders or whatnot everything else should defer to PRIVATE ARBITRATION----as much as possible---
sun
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Salaam Herring,
reading your comments you are partly correct and partly wrong, firstly making laws. The law of the land, known as natural law, which is fully explained in this community contract, http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/178/235/ is inalienable and immutable. The idea of needing legislation which you suggest in your post is in fact in opposition to law, as it makes what is unlawful into positive law.
Positive law is authoritarian law, and applies only to slaves.
The second problem you have suggested is business, in the present model of business based upon Riba, a concept few wish to grasp, you have an unlawful relationship, this lends itself to corruption, fraud and division, exploitation and monopoly.
Within the contract of community linked above, I also explain the natural law business model.
You need no more than the contract of community to free yourself, in the case of ownership a clear fraud in itself I conceived an allodium claim affidavit to remove it, and a friend of mine who had been evicted from his home by the courts for the banking corporation used my advice, and the courts were forced to give him back his home, he has no debt to the bank and is now on good terms with the local corporate policy enforces (police).
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Salam everyone and especially Confused
Capitalism and socialism cannot be compared, just like apples and pears cannot be compared. They have two completely different agendas, one is an economic system and one is an ideological system. Where is this ying-yang comparison coming from?.....I blame America....
Coming from a social democratic country I can with my entire heart say that if one can interpret the Quran into a political manifesto it will certainly be social democracy, at least the type that I live in.
I agree with Edip. -
Salaam Emil,
your conclusion that Islam demands a socialist democracy is based upon what invention, your opinion? Your intuition? Your exposure to a single social paradigm makes your case?
You conclude an unlawful system and claim it as Islamic, I realise my views are not popular but they are based in fact, its a shame those who pretend to want to understand the true Islam don't apply reason and open their minds to other paradigms than the only one they have experienced.
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Salaam Emil,
your conclusion that Islam demands a socialist democracy is based upon what invention, your opinion? Your intuition? Your exposure to a single social paradigm makes your case?
You conclude an unlawful system and claim it as Islamic, I realise my views are not popular but they are based in fact, its a shame those who pretend to want to understand the true Islam don't apply reason and open their minds to other paradigms than the only one they have experienced.
Salam brother
Please read my post again a bit more carefully. Did I really claim social democracy as islamic.......Did I claim Islam demands social democracy..... I said if one can interpret the Quran into some political manifesto......Key word is if, brother. I have no intention into ever mixing my faith with politics. But if one should, then they would find social democracy sharing the largest amount of similarities with islam than any other kind of political ideology. But just for saying the most human-like animal is the monkey does not make the monkey into a almost-human, I guess you follow what I mean.
I call it as I see it, brother. The countries where I have found a strong solidarity towards and amongst the people, where money is not the only barometer for success, where intellect not wealth governs the choice of education, where people are not afraid to speak their mind..........have been exclusively under a social democratic government.........I find these attributes very islamic. Call it unlawful if you want, I call it total nonsense to ever categorise the word of Allah into a man-made political ideology.
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Salaam Emil,
I agree Islam is utterly and completely void of a 'POLITICAL' system, it is both unlawful to have such a parasitic imposition and comprehensively un-Islamic.
Islam was never a religion, it was never designed to be subverted to the worship of a sky God, the adoration of an invention of one's mind, the blind faith of sheep and thoughtless fools. Islam was designed as a Deen, a way to exist, a society based upon the models it demands, sadly if you view Islam as an expansion of the death cult of Christianity or Judaism your mind shuts down to reason, you see only what religion dictates.
What I have been explaining on my website is beginning to be applied, and it works, natural law is the most powerful tool you have, it is designed to form society, in fact natural law is the basis of all society, this is why in the modern world we have not got a society, we have a corporate culture, and a corporation acts as a clinical psychopath, it has no regard for mankind, it cares for only one thing increasing profit, it burns the earth, poisons the seas, pollutes the air, starves the poor, exploits the vulnerable, it act without conscience as it is an incorporeal entity, the invention of charter, the mere creation of legislation, utterly unlawful.