Does Islam support a Capitalist or a Socialist system?
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Salaam Emil,
I agree Islam is utterly and completely void of a 'POLITICAL' system, it is both unlawful to have such a parasitic imposition and comprehensively un-Islamic.
Islam was never a religion, it was never designed to be subverted to the worship of a sky God, the adoration of an invention of one's mind, the blind faith of sheep and thoughtless fools. Islam was designed as a Deen, a way to exist, a society based upon the models it demands, sadly if you view Islam as an expansion of the death cult of Christianity or Judaism your mind shuts down to reason, you see only what religion dictates.
What I have been explaining on my website is beginning to be applied, and it works, natural law is the most powerful tool you have, it is designed to form society, in fact natural law is the basis of all society, this is why in the modern world we have not got a society, we have a corporate culture, and a corporation acts as a clinical psychopath, it has no regard for mankind, it cares for only one thing increasing profit, it burns the earth, poisons the seas, pollutes the air, starves the poor, exploits the vulnerable, it act without conscience as it is an incorporeal entity, the invention of charter, the mere creation of legislation, utterly unlawful.
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Salaam Emil,
I agree Islam is utterly and completely void of a 'POLITICAL' system, it is both unlawful to have such a parasitic imposition and comprehensively un-Islamic.
Islam was never a religion, it was never designed to be subverted to the worship of a sky God, the adoration of an invention of one's mind, the blind faith of sheep and thoughtless fools. Islam was designed as a Deen, a way to exist, a society based upon the models it demands, sadly if you view Islam as an expansion of the death cult of Christianity or Judaism your mind shuts down to reason, you see only what religion dictates.
What I have been explaining on my website is beginning to be applied, and it works, natural law is the most powerful tool you have, it is designed to form society, in fact natural law is the basis of all society, this is why in the modern world we have not got a society, we have a corporate culture, and a corporation acts as a clinical psychopath, it has no regard for mankind, it cares for only one thing increasing profit, it burns the earth, poisons the seas, pollutes the air, starves the poor, exploits the vulnerable, it act without conscience as it is an incorporeal entity, the invention of charter, the mere creation of legislation, utterly unlawful.
Salam Abdun
You say it very well brother, I will make sure to check out your website.
One of the best expressions I've heard lately is "God does not want you to believe in Him, God wants you to believe in his Way." Can't remember who said it though....I do not believe in Satan, but I keep telling those who do that he will not make you stop following God, he will trick you into thinking you follow God but in fact you are following Satan. Pollution is a good example .........How we have become dependant on a substance that will eventually kill everything, and the cherry on top is the fact that the largest suppliers and the largest consumers consider themselves to be the biggest believers of God.
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AOA
natural law is the most powerful tool you have, it is designed to form society, in fact natural law is the basis of all society
Could you please explain a little further. What is a natural law and how it is the basis of all society?
Regards -
Salaam Stillearning,
natural law is simple, it is the foundation of all law, everywhere on earth, it is based upon reason, it is known as the law of the land, prescriptive law, the unwritten law, but it is basically based upon two simple laws that must be kept in mind when you create a society, they must always remain the base.
Do all you have agreed to do.
Do not encroach upon another man or woman, or their property.Although really the 'or their property' bit is within the logic of the first part of do not encroach.
From these two simple laws all law flows, and as extension society.
If you go on my website I have written the reasoned understanding of natural law, and the concept of allodial rights of use, which is an integral part of the law, I have also explained many of the frauds, like ownership, legislation, democracy, corporation, trusts, etc.
Contract of community
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/178/235/
Allodium Claim
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/197/239/
Onion of ownership
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/194/231/
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Salaam Stillearning,
natural law is simple, it is the foundation of all law, everywhere on earth, it is based upon reason, it is known as the law of the land, prescriptive law, the unwritten law, but it is basically based upon two simple laws that must be kept in mind when you create a society, they must always remain the base.
Do all you have agreed to do.
Do not encroach upon another man or woman, or their property.Although really the 'or their property' bit is within the logic of the first part of do not encroach.
From these two simple laws all law flows, and as extension society.
If you go on my website I have written the reasoned understanding of natural law, and the concept of allodial rights of use, which is an integral part of the law, I have also explained many of the frauds, like ownership, legislation, democracy, corporation, trusts, etc.
Contract of community
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/178/235/
Allodium Claim
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/197/239/
Onion of ownership
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/194/231/
Salaam Abdun,
Thanks for the links.
Are you intending to reference your articles contents to the Quran? I note that you've done this for a minority of all your website articles. After all
Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of Allah without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.
Peace.
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Salaam Abdun,
Your response evades my question and seems hypocritical. If you will choose not to support your claims with Quranic reference, this will not be different to the majority who "....uphold baseless Hadith...." . Why post or maintain a website, if you are seeking to show others Truth, then surely this would entail justifying your claims?
Peace.
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Salaam Str41ghtw4y,
its self evident from the Islamic concepts, the simple concepts support all I write, like Allah is the owner of all creation, therefore we cannot own anything but what we ourselves create, so the earth and her resources belong to Allah alone as we never created it, we only have a right of use. Allah is the only sovereign, not even Muhammad can be your sovereign, this removes all forms of imposed authority, in every walk of life.
It needs no great effort to see the concepts of Islam, like the concept of no compulsion which demands you do no impose on those around you with your dictates and beliefs.
Like I say follow what you wish, I am not obligated to hold anyones hand and lead them through the concepts of Islam, as people refuse what is difficult to accept as true, and much of what I write is hard for most to accept.
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Salaam Str41ghtw4y,
its self evident from the Islamic concepts, the simple concepts support all I write, like Allah is the owner of all creation, therefore we cannot own anything but what we ourselves create, so the earth and her resources belong to Allah alone as we never created it, we only have a right of use. Allah is the only sovereign, not even Muhammad can be your sovereign, this removes all forms of imposed authority, in every walk of life.
It needs no great effort to see the concepts of Islam, like the concept of no compulsion which demands you do no impose on those around you with your dictates and beliefs.
Like I say follow what you wish, I am not obligated to hold anyones hand and lead them through the concepts of Islam, as people refuse what is difficult to accept as true, and much of what I write is hard for most to accept.
Salaam Abdun,
Clearly we all follow what we wish - but this latter part of your answer digresses from the point I have raised which relates to providing justifications from the Quran to support a point of view. Note that I'm clearly not making any specific claims/counter-claims to the content of your posts, or making a statement of my position with regard to the content. I am merely pointing out that your purported articles of 'truth' simply cannot be published as 'truth' in the way they are currently written, without references.
Quite revealing is your use of statements such as 'self evident', 'simple concepts', 'refuse what is difficult to accept as true' etc in order to justify your claims rather than Quranic references. It amounts to you posting a baseless opinion - which is fine, and in keeping with what the majority do. There are many good blogs out there, yours is one of them. It is a pity that you seem to equate effective argumentation and justification as 'hand-holding'. Particularly as I see great potential in transforming many of the articles on your site into ones with supported claims of truth - or at least pointers to Truth.
However, as you say, there is no compulsion.
Peace.
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Salaam Str41ghtw4y,
my main aversion to sighting Qur'anic references is in the translations now in common use, I do not think they are very accurate, and so cannot be used as reference, an in-depth and fully referenced translation based upon the ancient Arabic and void of all hadith definitions would be a good source of reference, and if that was available I'd happily add verses to the essays.
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Salam all,
I believe that Capitalism is the only system that can be supported by the Quran. This is because I don't see anywhere in God's book allowing certain people (governments) to take money from everyone else and then "properly" distribute it among the masses. This for one is saying that those certain people in control know what is best for the masses and also are morally superior and won't use that money to benefit themselves in any way.
Also, as a free person, let's say I decide I don't want to give the government my money. How will you take this money from me? By gunpoint like the IRS??? I think not.
True Free Market Capitalism is the only system that works. Let people EASILY start businesses, trade and make money. Let companies fail and then start all over again. Economic freedom leads to social freedom and without it individual liberties don't mean as much.
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Salam all,
I believe that Capitalism is the only system that can be supported by the Quran. This is because I don't see anywhere in God's book allowing certain people (governments) to take money from everyone else and then "properly" distribute it among the masses. This for one is saying that those certain people in control know what is best for the masses and also are morally superior and won't use that money to benefit themselves in any way.
Also, as a free person, let's say I decide I don't want to give the government my money. How will you take this money from me? By gunpoint like the IRS??? I think not.
True Free Market Capitalism is the only system that works. Let people EASILY start businesses, trade and make money. Let companies fail and then start all over again. Economic freedom leads to social freedom and without it individual liberties don't mean as much.
Salam Amouna
What is the opposite of capitalism? You describe the opposite as where the government takes your money and distributes it evenly among the masses. How on earth can an economic system tax you?
You make it sound like capitalism equals freedom which is unbelievably not true. How can an economic system guarantee you freedom?I agree with you that capitalism as an economic system is Quranic because we are to have free trade, but yet again I hear that capitalism= social freedom which is not right. Please give me one country where the social freedom is a result of the economic system of capitalism and I stand corrected.
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AOA
natural law is simple, it is the foundation of all law, everywhere on earth, it is based upon reason, it is known as the law of the land, prescriptive law, the unwritten law, but it is basically based upon two simple laws that must be kept in mind when you create a society, they must always remain the base.
Sorry but I dont understand what you mean by 'ntural law' therefore cannot comprehend how it can be foundation of all law.
Do all you have agreed to do.
Do you mean some kind of contract? Who does one agree to do with?. Is it a moral and ethical agreement or another? Sounds good but not sure what it means in prctical terms.
Do not encroach upon another man or woman, or their property.
Most systems would claim to do this.
If you go on my website I have written the reasoned understanding of natural law, and the concept of allodial rights of use, which is an integral part of the law, I have also explained many of the frauds, like ownership, legislation, democracy, corporation, trusts, etc.
Sorry I cannot understand your reasoning or your explanations. They are many vague and generalised statements which explain very little. Perhaps using a simple example to illustrate your point(s) may help.
Regards
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Tyler Durden, I feel for you.
When Obama won, at my university there was much celebration because all the kids were excited about "change."
But I knew better. What Obama had said was nothing but empty rhetoric. And his idea of change was pathetically superficial.
There was only one politician willing to talk about the REAL issues back in 2008, and he is at it again in 2012 - and that's Ron Paul.
It is amazing the support he is now garnering from college students and other young people. I think many of them are disillusioned Obama supporters like yourself.
Hope you agree Ron Paul's our man this coming election.
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I am also a staunch anti-socialist and pro-capitalist.
Capitalism is not a system. It is just the form freedom takes when there aren't arbitrary rules governing our lives.
When you have a free market, without unnecessary taxation, people have more to give. When the government isn't responsible for providing for people, the people themselves take up the responsibility and give to charity and help the poor.
What socialism does is, as others have pointed out, takes away the freedom of the people. And actually makes them MORE apathetic towards their fellow citizens because now whatever happens the government will take care of them.
There is a HUGE misconception that the US is a free market economy. We are NOT a free market economy. We do not have a capitalist system. I can't stress this enough.
What we have is corporatism. What we have is the government favoring certain powerful corporations and letting them get away with murder. It is this favoritism (through government subsidies) that caused the economic collapse.
It wasn't the collapse of capitalism. It was the sign that it is time to go back to capitalism - but the powers that be didn't let it happen.
Ignore God's signs at your peril!And America's obesity problem? That is also the result of government subsidies for corn. The masses of illegal immigrants living in poor conditions in the US? That is also the result of subsidies.
Once the government gets out of our way and stops artifically shaping our lives based on the false assumption that it knows whats best for us, then we can finally have a system that is equal and promotes health and community.
We can see the benefits of capitalism in our fight against racism and inequality.I am not completely against socialism. I think it has some great ideas, and a socialist system can work. And maybe a true capitalist society isn't possible (because we haven't seen one yet).
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Salaam,
Natural Law is defined by Burlamaqui to be ?A rule which so necessarily agrees with the nature and state of man that, without observing its maxims, the peace and happiness of society can never be preserved. These are called natural laws because knowledge of them may be attained merely by the light of reason, from the fact of their essential agreeableness with the constitution of human nature.?
A further definition
As the good is that at which all things aim, the good of a ship builder is to build ships, the good of a squirrel is to be an effective, successful and functioning squirrel, the ultimate good for man/woman is happiness. It is also our nature to think, the good for man/woman must then consist in their functioning in a way consistent with and guided by their rational element, their reason and wisdom. Therefore whatever helps the pursuit of truth is good, whatever hinders it is bad.
It is in our nature to be social creatures, as all life is connected and interdependent, which means the altruism of one has selfish benefit; the inherent ends of mans nature must not do what frustrates true fulfilment from indulging vices of perception encroaching externally, but through establishing true society and therefore social harmony allowing personal growth, spiritual evolution and a fertile and fruitful environment for all life.
Capitalism is a economic system that values capital as the generator of wealth, this is a fraud, capital generates nothing, if you have a ton of gold, it will do nothing, it will always remain a ton of gold, the true generator of wealth is human labour, and that is the economic system of Islam, where human labour is understood and organised independently of the invented need for capital.
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AOA Abdun Nur
I am sorry but your supposed system is nothing more than a waffle
I am afraiNatural Law is defined by Burlamaqui to be ?A rule which so necessarily agrees with the nature and state of man that, without observing its maxims, the peace and happiness of society can never be preserved
.What is the natural state of man? Presumption being that somehow every human has same natural state. Have you met anyone other than yourself! how many individuals have you come across whose natural state is the same
These are called natural laws because knowledge of them may be attained merely by the light of reason, from the fact of their essential agreeableness with the constitution of human nature.?
As the correspondance here shows light of reason varies from individual to individual.
the ultimate good for man/woman is happiness.
What makes one happy varies enormously. Some may find accumulating huge wealth an enormous source of happiness, others may consider charitable fulfilling some even may find inflicting pain on others a pleasureable experience. I hope this explains the vagueness of your statement.
It is in our nature to be social creatures, as all life is connected and interdependent, which means the altruism of one has selfish benefit; the inherent ends of mans nature must not do what frustrates true fulfilment from indulging vices of perception encroaching externally, but through establishing true society and therefore social harmony allowing personal growth, spiritual evolution and a fertile and fruitful environment for all life.
Nothing to disagree with but apart from stating the obvious cliches means very little in terms of a political system.
Capitalism is a economic system that values capital as the generator of wealth, this is a fraud, capital generates nothing, if you have a ton of gold, it will do nothing, it will always remain a ton of gold, .
That is your, perhaps some others, understanding of capitalism. Overwhelming number of capitalists/socialists see the human labour (whatever you define labour to be) as the generator of wealth.
the true generator of wealth is human labour, and that is the economic system of Islam, where human labour is understood and organised independently of the invented need for capital
I am not sure where you get this from. How is human labour understood any differently in Islam than say capitalism or socialism. Also how does Islam organise human labour independently from the need of capital. Does Islamic system advocate no payment (that is one form of capital) for a man/woman's labour.
Regards
AOA Lobster
I am also a staunch anti-socialist and pro-capitalist.
Ok y. ou aree entitled to your opinion, is this not what democracy is about
Capitalism is not a system. It is just the form freedom takes when there aren't arbitrary rules governing our lives.
Interesting. What are arbitary rules and what are non arbitary rule? Can a society of more than one function without rules.
When you have a free market, without unnecessary taxation, people have more to give. When the government isn't responsible for providing for people, the people themselves take up the responsibility and give to charity and help the poor.
You have admirable faith in the goodness of human race. You will find in practice the more individuals have the least they are likely to give to charity. Do you not think the less fortunate deserve little bit more predictable to rely on than the unpredictable nature of other individuals charity.
Unnecessary taxation depends on who is defining what is unnecessary.What socialism does is, as others have pointed out, takes away the freedom of the people..
Interesting definition of socialism you have (but not surprising as most people living in the US come up with this cliche). Those that consider themselves socialist would argue to the contrary that socialism is the ultimate form of freedom as it enables the individuals to enjoy the fruits of their own labour and not be slaves to a master who is no more than a parasite living of their creation (not my definition).
And actually makes them MORE apathetic towards their fellow citizens because now whatever happens the government will take care of them
Every goveremnt will to some extent (varying degrees) take care of ther fellow citizens, is this not the reason why or supposedly societies exist. Pathetic individuals exist under every system and your statement is often used as cliche by those who either wish to deliberately mislead or have very little understanding of political systems.
There is a HUGE misconception that the US is a free market economy. We are NOT a free market economy. We do not have a capitalist system. I can't stress this enough.
What we have is corporatism. What we have is the government favoring certain powerful corporations and letting them get away with murder. It is this favoritism (through government subsidies) that caused the economic collapse.
It wasn't the collapse of capitalism. It was the sign that it is time to go back to capitalism - but the powers that be didn't let it happen.
Ignore God's signs at your peril!& God's sign are?
And America's obesity problem? That is also the result of government subsidies for corn. The masses of illegal immigrants living in poor conditions in the US? That is also the result of subsidies.
Intersting!
Once the government gets out of our way and stops artifically shaping our lives based on the false assumption that it knows whats best for us, then we can finally have a system that is equal and promotes health and community.
We can see the benefits of capitalism in our fight against racism and inequality.You mean anarchy.
I am not completely against socialism. I think it has some great ideas, and a socialist system can work. And maybe a true capitalist society isn't possible (because we haven't seen one yet).
At last you are almost beginning to talk sense.
Regards
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There was only one politician willing to talk about the REAL issues back in 2008, and he is at it again in 2012 - and that's Ron Paul.
It is amazing the support he is now garnering from college students and other young people. I think many of them are disillusioned Obama supporters like yourself.
Hope you agree Ron Paul's our man this coming election.
Hey there,
I'm not American, but I have been reading up a lot about Ron Paul and, in my opinion, if America does not vote him in as President, we will have another war on our hands. He is the only consistent candidate thats not in the pockets of the Wall Street corporations. A true libertarian (finally) - Milton Friedman would be proud. Insha'allah I hope he will be elected. I agree with you completely.
(the problem is, a lot of Americans don't have time for these ideas. Santorum? Romney? Gingrich (lol)? If they are elected, it will be more of the same + war with Iran)
Stilllearning
You will find in practice the more individuals have the least they are likely to give to charity.
Do you have facts for this? Because, as far as I can see, plenty of rich people to charity. Just look at bill gates, brad pitt angelina jolie etc etc. They give massive amounts of time and money to charity. I would need to see definitive statistics. If you were to do a search on google, you will find documentation that the "poor give a higher percentage of their wealth" than the rich. However, I don't think this is really enough to judge from.
I don't know about this though - you may be correct.Those that consider themselves socialist would argue to the contrary that socialism is the ultimate form of freedom as it enables the individuals to enjoy the fruits of their own labour and not be slaves to a master who is no more than a parasite living of their creation (not my definition).
Yes, enjoy the fruits of your labour until the government steals 40% of your income to subsidise other industries, other individuals and their own wallets. Sounds very "free". Actually, the very simplest form of "enjoy the fruits of your labour" would be exactly the libertarian philosophy. The government takes as little as possible of your money, and you spend the wealth generated by your labour on whatever you want. You want to spend all that money on heroin? Great, go ahead. It's a stupid decision, but it's yours. You want to spend it on your child's welfare and personal matters. Great, good for you.
THAT is freedom, not the illusion that socialism offers.
Do you not think the less fortunate deserve little bit more predictable to rely on than the unpredictable nature of other individuals charity.
You don't think that if your income was not taxed by 40% (approx) that you would not give more to charity?
This is the robin hood myth. The idea that we can take from everyone in order to help the poor is, in my opinion, the most misguided economic idea. Government schools, government housing, the minimum wage - all of these are state initiatives funded by the taxpayer - and almost every one has been an abject failure in whatever context.
Government housing essentially further divides the community and concentrates the poor and unemployed, benefit-dependant people in one single place. This then encourages a sub-culture of crime. We see these examples all around us.
I am not questioning your intentions. Everyone - marx, keynes, hayek, friedman - all have good intentions. However, the implementation of these is, under a socialist ideology, hugely misguided.