The Bible Is Not The Tawrat (Torah) & Injil (Gospel)
-
Peace Bro Maverick
Peace Gnosis,
A few things to consider
(1) According to 241 and following, the Quran says that the Quran authenticates what the children of Israel had at the time of the prophet. The Quran was revealed sometime around the 7th century. Disagree?
(2) The narratives about Moses and the children of Israel following 241 are all (except one) confirmed in modern versions of the Torah AND the oldest complete manuscripts of the Torah. 259 refers to Achan's rebellion, and 263 shows an understanding of the literal reading of the Hebrew in Exodus.
(3) We have manuscript fragments of the Torah (of Numbers 624-27) dating to the 6th century BC. We have complete manuscripts that are almost identical to the modern manuscripts of the Torah dating to the 1st century AD. We have manuscripts of the gospels in fragmentary form going back to the 200s (AD). ALL of these manuscripts predate the Quran, and ALL of them are almost identical to the modern manuscripts.
(4) The Quran uses loan words from Hebrew and Greek that existed prior to the Quran in a number of sources and documents. Taurat is a transliteration of Hebrew "Torah", which means "teaching", and "Injil" is a transliteration of the Greek work for gospel, or good news. The word Sabi'un in the Quran is also probably a loan word from the Greek "sebomenoi"or "believers ", which was used prior to the time of Jesus. These words were used in a LOT of documents, not just Torah and NT manuscripts. For someone to take the Quran and try to translate forgeries backwards into history, they would need to pull off a conspiracy covering many, many miles and many, many years in a coordinated effort.
Also, about your assertion about Hebrew and Aramaic is somewhat incorrect. Hebrew, as we know it, does date from the time you mentioned. The Hebrew of the Torah is different/less defined as later Hebrew, such as the Hebrew used for the book of Ecclesiastes. Over time, rules of grammar were added, etc, but this is development within a language, not the development of a new language. The book of Daniel, a Babylonian exile text, is written partially in Hebrew and partially in Aramaic. When you look at Daniel in the original language, you KNOW where the Hebrew ends and the Aramaic begins. And there is an Aramaic version of the Torah. It is called the Targum. Hebrew manuscripts for the Torah are older than oldest versions of the Targums. The Targums were written in Babylon, the same Jewish community that produced the Talmud (Jewish oral tradition that they claim is scripture
).Appreciate that you read Bro Pazuzu article with regards to "Hebrew, Children of Isreal" in this forum.
One thing for sure, before WW1, supporters of Bani Isreal planned for the creation of Isreal state in the "Balfore Agreement" which includes the creation of a new language and that is the Hebrew language.
Peace
-
Peace Bro Maverick
).Appreciate that you read Bro Pazuzu article with regards to "Hebrew, Children of Isreal" in this forum.
One thing for sure, before WW1, supporters of Bani Isreal planned for the creation of Isreal state in the "Balfore Agreement" which includes the creation of a new language and that is the Hebrew language.
Peace
Peace Sidi,
Hebrew existed as what is called an "academic" language, not as a spoken language. Lots of people know academic languages for scholarly purposes, but don't speak them for conversation koine greek, latin, ancient aramaic, etc. They did not invent Hebrew, as you are suggesting, but they established rules for it to be revived as a spoken language. They were also careful to make it different from ancient Hebrew.
I'm just going to call it like I see it. All of this conspiracy theory stuff about Hebrew as a modern invented language, etc, etc is racism.
-Joel
-
As-Salaam Alaikum,
I did not contradict myself. The verses clearly talk about scriptures that were revealed during the time of their respected Prophets, not what they were currently in possession of. All of the verses use the past tense i.e.
"So because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allah loves Al-Muhsinun (good-doers)." - al-Qur'an 513
This one verse alone demostrates that not only is the current Bible (which the Jews had possession of during the revealing of the Qur'an) not the Word or book of Allah, it also shows that they delibrately changed the words of the scripture that was sent to them during the time of Prophet Musa (pbuh), which would produce the present day Old Testament. How then can you say the Bible is in the same authority as the Qur'an when the Qur'an refutes such?
Also, to say that there were no scriptures revealed to Musa (pbuh) and Isa (pbuh) demostrates a lack of knowledge of the ayats within the Qur'an. The Qur'an clearly says the following
"Verily, We did send down the Taurat (Torah) , therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allah's Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the Kafirun (i.e. disbelievers - of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allah's Laws)." al-Qur'an 544
"And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun (the pious)." - al-Qur'an 546
"Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad SAW) as We inspired Nuh (Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) inspired Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and Al-Asbat , 'Iesa (Jesus), Ayub (Job), Yunus (Jonah), Harun (Aaron), and Sulaiman (Solomon), and to Dawud (David) We gave the Zabur (Psalms). "
How then can you say that no scriptures were given to Musa (pbuh), Isa (pbuh) and Dawud (pbuh) when the Qur'an itself clearly states that Allah did reveal these scriptures to them?
The verses I gave don't discredit me, they give clear proofs of the truth. You are actually the one who contradicted yourself by saying that no scriptures were revealed to the previous Prophets when the Qur'an says otherwise.
Some people have said that the Koran says that the Torah and Gospel are corrupted and its no longer a book of guidance. They say "Islam" says so. Some Muslims even have said that anyone who still follows these scriptures is no longer a believer but a disbeliever and will go to hell. Indeed some Sunni/Shia scholars claim that any follower of islam who does not believe that the Jews and Christians are infidels is an infidel himself! However when asked to provide their evidence from the Koran they are mute and confused. This is because what they say and the Koran are complete opposites. Lets look at the Koran and what it say
Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 47)
But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)
Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. (Surah 2, Baqara, verse 85)
Say "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord...." (Surah 5, Al Ma'idah, verse 6
If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course But many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 69)
Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Surah 7, A'raf, verse 159)
2.41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.
2.91 When it is said to them, ?Believe in what God Hath sent down, ?they say, ?We believe in what was sent down to us? yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say ?Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe??
Here the Koran clearly states the Koran confirms what is with them, meaning the scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Clearly this is not stating scriptures of the past but what they have possession of at the time the Koran was revealed. These scriptures are identical in every way to the scriptures these religions still have today known as the Old Testament and New Testament or the Bible as some call it. As I did my research about this subject some time ago I was looking for where this evidence of the tampering and corruption of the Bible is mentioned in the Koran as claimed by the Sunni/Shia sectarianist. How can God say the previous scriptures are corrupted then order them to follow them? It even attacks those who refuse to follow it and says its a path to salvation and mentions them in an equal footing as the Koran.
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Surah 5 Verse 48
It even uses the previous scripture as evidence for the validity of the Koran
And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that) was before thee... (Surah 10, Jonah, verse 94)
Muslims who follow Sunni/Shia Islam say these verses are concerning the originals. But these scriptures have not changed since the days of the prophet. In fact they are the way they are today long before the prophet. So what scriptures was the Koran talking about other than the current Bible? They then point to this verse as evidence of the corruption and tampering of the previous scriptures(ie the Bible).
2.79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
This is then used to support the tampering of the scriptures. However upon close examination, I see they failed to look at the verse before it and after it.
2.78 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
So the Koran is saying those poeple were making things up but never said the Book itself has been tampered since those people never knew the book and the follow up verses brings light to a religious scripture followed by the Judaic faith thats not the Old Testament.
2.80 And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?"
This is not in the Torah but its refering to the Talmud. The supposed "oral" traditions the Rabbis say was passed down to them. The Talmud are the collections of the traditions of the so called Pharisees talked about in the Gospel who were fierce opponents of Jesus the Messiah.
The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel toward the concept of reward in the life to come. Gehinom (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death. ?Gehenna? is sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months.Those who are too wicked to reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever. Other accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone forever, in which case those too wicked for purification are destroyed (see annihilationism)
Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaAlso in the Talmud
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean" the wages owed him for work.
The Koran condemned this
3.75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.
4.156 Quran
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 71-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the Mishnah.
Also
The Schindler's List Quote
The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.
The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase
"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."
However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.
In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.
In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.
The Koran tells us about this and condemns this
5.32 On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land
"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.
"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...
The koran tells us
4.157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
The Talmud then say
Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.
Sanhedrin 90a. Those who read the New Testament ("uncanonical books" will have no portion in the world to come.
Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.
The koran responds by
And they say "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. 2.111-113
?Non-Jewish property belongs to the Jew who uses it first? - (Babba Bathra 54b)
?If two Jews have deceived a Non-Jew, they have to split the profit? - (Choschen Ham 183,7)
?Every Jew is allowed to use lies and perjury to bring a Non-Jew to ruin? - (Babha Kama 113a)
?The Jew is allowed to practice usury on the Non-Jew? - (Talmud IV/2/70b)
The koran then says
4.160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from God's Way;-
4.161. That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.Note The Torah forbids the Jews from the devouring of Usury ("neshek".See the Old Testament Ex. 22 25;
Le. 25 36-37; De. 2319-20; Ne. 5 7/10; Ps. 15 5; Pr. 288The Koran then says
4.162. But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day To them shall We soon give a great reward.
As for the Gospel
Jesus is reported to have said ?he that hath seen me hath seen the Father? and ?I am in the Father, and the Father in me? (John 149-10); but in the same passage he shortly goes on to add ?At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.? (John 1420) Again, while Jesus does proclaim ?I and my Father are one? (John 1030), he also prays for his followers, ?that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.? (John 1721) Whatever the nature of the ?oneness? Jesus is claiming exists between God and himself, it is apparently something that is supposed to hold between God and all Christians ? in which case it can hardly be the relation of numerical identity.
Likewise, in the two New Testament passages where Jesus is said to have regarded himself as ?equal with God? ? John 518 and Philippians 26 ? the Greek word translated ?equal? is isos, which means ?on the same level? or ?of the same rank,? never ?identical.? The claim that Jesus was God did not become Christian orthodoxy until the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. The orthodox reading of these passages seems natural today only because they are read through the lens of what ?everybody knows? about Jesus? claims to divinity; few would find incarnationism in the texts unless they first brought it there.
An objector may point to the opening lines of the Gospel of John, which apparently identify the ?Logos? with God (John 11) and the ?Logos made flesh? with Jesus (John 114). Of course these lines were not spoken by Jesus, and so do not show that Jesus himself claimed to be God; but in any case, what exactly are they saying? The relation between God and the Logos seems to fall short of strict identity; the Greek, literally translated, says something like ?the Logos was with the God, and God is what the Logos was? ? an awkward construction clearly trying to express a subtler relation than identity. The term ?Logos? is borrowed from Greek philosophy, where it means a thing?s abstract rational nature; the Logos that is ?with? God and is what God is, is not God but God?s nature. To say that Jesus is the Logos made flesh, then, is simply to say that he is a physical embodiment of God?s nature. This hardly makes him identical with God, since all human beings are supposed to be created from God?s spirit (Genesis 27) and in God?s image and likeness (Genesis 126-27).
Indeed the New Testament authors clearly understand Jesus as offering everyone the opportunity to be sons (and daughters) of God and to partake of God?s nature
?But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.? (John 112-13)
?For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. ... And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.? (Romans 814-17)
?Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.? (1 John 32)
As the New Testament authors understand Jesus? message, being the ?Son of God? is evidently not a status that Jesus claims for himself alone, but one that is open to all Christians;Clearly this has no basis in the Gospel, the Koran reiterates this
People of the Book, do not go beyond the bounds in your religion, and say nought as to God but the Truth. The messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the messenger of God, and his word that he committed to Mary, and a spirit originating from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not 'Three'. Refrain, better is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to him-that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the Heavens and in the Earth; God suffices for a guardian. (4.171)
"And they say, The All-Merciful has taken unto Himself a son. You have indeed advanced something hideous. As if the skies are about to burst, the earth to split asunder and its mountain to fall down in the utter ruin for that they have attributed to the All-merciful a son; and behaves not the All-merciful to take a son. None there in the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant" (Maryam 1988-93)
There is nothing, absolutely nothing about corruption or tampering of previous scriptures. The Koran states that the Talmud is NOT the word of God and says the Christian priests are NOT following the Gospel but indeed they hide and conceal and take things out of context and following vain desires
"They (i.e. Jews and Christians) changed words from their contexts and forgot a good part of the message given to them, and you will continue to find them -except a few among them- bent on new deceits?" (513)
There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, 'That is from God,' but it is not from God It is they who tell a lie against God and (well) they know it! (3,7
The Koran came to Confirm and not abrogate the previous scriptures as the Sunni/Shia sects claim. And like Jesus it condemned the Talmudic traditions. The Islamic sects created the exact type of oral traditions that they believe "explains" the Koran and indeed abrogates it. These oral traditions were compiled by Muslim jurist two centuries after Muhammad and these traditions dominate the teachings of these sects.
The Koran is here to support and confirm the previous scriptures. A reminder to many not to abandon the scriptures and follow men. The scriptures must be read as a WHOLE and not in isolation.
Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. ( 2,85)
"Say We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. " 2136
"The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying. " 2285
{4152}
"And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."No distiction between the scriptures and no distinction between the prophets. Koran is peace!
URL http//able2know.org/topic/157270-1
-
Peace Benigno
No distiction between the scriptures and no distinction between the prophets. Koran is peace!
You are absolutely right but
The people used to be one community when GOD sent the prophets as bearers of good news, as well as warners. He sent down with them the scripture, bearing the truth, to judge among the people in their disputes. Ironically, those who received the scripture were the ones who rejected any new scripture, despite clear proofs given to them. This is due to jealousy on their part. GOD guides those who believe to the truth that is disputed by all others, in accordance with His will. GOD guides whoever wills in a straight path.How do they reject? By changing the words and the language used.
The late Bro Ahmad Deedat quotes, from a Christians source, in his book The Choice - The Quran or The Bible - pg 20.
It is hard for us to realized that when the books of the bible were originially written, there was no printing press to multiply the copies. Each copy must be made slowly and laboriously by hand. Under these conditions it was inevitable that many ancient books should be lost. This largely account to the fact that ALL the original manuscripts of the bible have perished.
-
Peace Sidi,
The is absolutely no proof of what you are saying and quoting here. The manuscript evidence itself disagrees with you. We do not have the original manuscripts of the Bible, but we have manuscripts that are very old, and have virtually 100% agreement with modern ones. To suggest that some conspiracy changed all of that and faked ancient manuscripts is a ridiculous idea.
This whole idea that you and others are presenting is not rational or logical. Those with prior scriptures rejected by changing their beliefs and then making the interpretation of their scriptures fit their incorrect ideas. But they never changed the scriptures or the languages themselves. The manuscripts of both the Torah and the Gospel that are older than the Quran are virtually the same as those we have now. How can you say that they have been changed when the Quran itself says that those who are wise judge by these scriptures that have been the same since before the Quran?
-Joel
How do they reject? By changing the words and the language used.
The late Bro Ahmad Deedat quotes, from a Christians source, in his book The Choice - The Quran or The Bible - pg 20.
It is hard for us to realized that when the books of the bible were originially written, there was no printing press to multiply the copies. Each copy must be made slowly and laboriously by hand. Under these conditions it was inevitable that many ancient books should be lost. This largely account to the fact that ALL the original manuscripts of the bible have perished.
-
The bible is a heterogeneous collection of books and in them God does not speak nor Gabriel. There are some citations of God speaking or of Angels speaking, but everything is mixed and it is not a direct revelation, but different accounts of people of things de narrate after the fact. So to compare that with the Qur'an and say that the Qur'an ratifies what is in the bible is plain false.
The Qur'an may mention the revelation, just as it says that to every people prophets were sent, therefore we will take any religion in the world and whatever has come down of it and we will say that the Qur'an confirms what is therein. But that is precisely why the Qur'an came down, so that anything should be contrasted with it to determine whether it is from God or not. The Qur'an does not give a blanket certification to anything. But does give blanket admission that to every people God has sent warners, what those warners said we may not know, but we may know that they may have said this or that if those things in question conform to the Qur'an.
The bible and the Qur'an are not like Israel and the United states, a sppecial relationship, The Qur'an is the word of direct revelation and the bible a collection of narrations which purport to relate some revelations. One may or may not believe the authenticiy of the Qur'an but if one believes it, then no blanket certification for the bible, which is altogether a different thing and holds no special relation to the Qur'an, which other narrations of revelations would not hold.
Salaam
-
Salaam sun
3443
Transliteration
Wa-itha tutla AAalayhim ayatunabayyinatin qaloo ma hatha illarajulun yureedu an yasuddakum AAamma kanayaAAbudu abaokum waqaloo ma hathailla ifkun muftaran waqala allatheenakafaroo lilhaqqi lamma jaahum in hathailla sihrun mubeenSahih International
And when our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, they say, "This is not but a man who wishes to avert you from that which your fathers were worshipping." And they say, "This is not except a lie invented." And those who disbelieve say of the truth when it has come to them, "This is not but obvious magic."Pickthall
And if Our revelations are recited unto them in plain terms, they say This is naught else than a man who would turn you away from what your fathers used to worship; and they say This is naught else than an invented lie. Those who disbelieve say of the truth when it reacheth them This is naught else than mere magic.Dr. Ghali
And when Our ayat (Verses, signs) are recited to them, supremely evident (signs), they say, "In no way is this (anything) except a man who is willing to bar you from what your fathers were worshiping." And they say, "In no way is this (anything) except fabricated falsehood." And the ones who disbelieved say to the Truth, as soon as it has come to them, "Decidedly this is (nothing) except an evident sorcery."Salaam pr
-
As-Salaam Alaikum,
I really can't believe this is still being debated after so much evidence has been given.
The is absolutely no proof of what you are saying and quoting here.
No proof? Are you serious?
"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby." - al-Qur'an 279
What better proof do you need than the words of Allah themself? Also consider this, we agree that Isa (pbuh) and his disciples spoke Aramiac right? Well all of the New Testament's manuscripts are in Greek, a language Isa (pbuh) and his disciples never spoke. How then can you continue to believe that the New Testament is the original Injil? Also, most of the NT was written by Paul who is never mentioned in the Qur'an. Why is he never mentioned if we are to believe in his writings?
You keep accusing people of conspiracy theories and contradicting themselves yet you are the only one contradicting yourself. May Allah give you guidance.
-
Salaam, ive got a task for you sun
only From the Arabic Qur'an
Get me out of the Qur'an that there was a cross and people was going to crucify Isa...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that Moses had the Torah....nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that history is a divine truth...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that the bible and Torah is the same of today...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an the real explanation of the word "The book"...This is mistranslation of the word "the book" to be compatible with history...we are still affected by the history and the hadiths yet we should expel the history and the hadiths from our selves.Now for a bigger bomb...Why did god in the Qur'an mention that this book is written by an Arabian TONGUE (not language be careful)...Didn't people of the Arabian desert know that they are speaking Arabic? did they need from god to know that there tongue is speaking Arabic? did God need that?Then there must be something else intentioned from this verse...what about the many contradictions of the language grammar and the grammar (if it is grammar) of the Qur'an???Still unknown errors? no it is not an unknown error it is just, we don't want to face it...yes the Arabic language is NOT the language of the Qur'an...Qur'an's language is an Arabian tongue that no one did explain it till now...
I can explain more but will take time, go search in the Arabic Qur'an if you can the word Moses with the Torah....there is nothing...Moses had "the book" which book? The same book God said that it's contents is included in the Qur'an...The same book the man who had some knowledge from it transported the Queen balkees to Solomon in no time..
Same book Isa knew about it with the Engeel and the Torah....the Engeel and Torah is NOT the Bible and Torah of today...Read the Torah and read the Bible of today...Specially the Torah, after reading the Qur'an...it is just a translation of the content of the Qur'an but a fake one...And since the content of the Qur'an is the book, the book was with Moses and it descended upon humanity...here you have the real deal...These people made up new religions from the Book which has the same content of the Qur'an...
History can't be much dirty? no it can...
"People where one nation God sent prophets as heralds and warnings and he descended with them the book with righteous to judge (judge hear is returning on the book not the prophets) between people in what they became different in it and And none differed over the Scripture except those who were given it - after the clear proofs came to them - out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allah guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.
This is the real history... with no elfs hobbits or unicorns peace
-
No proof? Are you serious?
"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby." - al-Qur'an 279
What better proof do you need than the words of Allah themself? Also consider this, we agree that Isa (pbuh) and his disciples spoke Aramiac right? Well all of the New Testament's manuscripts are in Greek, a language Isa (pbuh) and his disciples never spoke. How then can you continue to believe that the New Testament is the original Injil? Also, most of the NT was written by Paul who is never mentioned in the Qur'an. Why is he never mentioned if we are to believe in his writings?
You keep accusing people of conspiracy theories and contradicting themselves yet you are the only one contradicting yourself. May Allah give you guidance.
Prove that your quote is specifically talking about the authors of prior scripture, specifically in light of 33, which confirms God as the true author of the Torah and Gospel. What you are doing is called prooftexting.
Jerome attested that the manuscript for Matthew's gospel was written in Hebrew. Even the greek text of Matthew is full of Hebrew idiom and grammar structures. There's also the Aramaic Peshitta.
I believe the Injil (from the GREEK WORD euangel "good news" is the message of Jesus, not necessarily the New Testament wholesale. The Hebrew followers of Jesus, the Evyonim, considered Paul a false prophet and rejected his writings.
You and I have already discussed this, yet you continue to believe to your own hurt that ridiculous forgeries found at Hag Hammadi have something to do with the gospel. Want to know why those texts weren't admitted into the canon? Most of them weren't even written yet. But believe whatever you want.
Salaam, ive got a task for you sun
only From the Arabic Qur'an
Get me out of the Qur'an that there was a cross and people was going to crucify Isa...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that Moses had the Torah....nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that history is a divine truth...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that the bible and Torah is the same of today...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an the real explanation of the word "The book"...This is mistranslation of the word "the book" to be compatible with history...we are still affected by the history and the hadiths yet we should expel the history and the hadiths from our selves.Get me out of the Quran that I should wipe my ass, or be on time for work, or exercise, or anything else that is plain common sense. Your "task" is a ridiculous waste of time
Same book Isa knew about it with the Engeel and the Torah....the Engeel and Torah is NOT the Bible and Torah of today...Read the Torah and read the Bible of today...Specially the Torah, after reading the Qur'an...it is just a translation of the content of the Qur'an but a fake one...And since the content of the Qur'an is the book, the book was with Moses and it descended upon humanity...here you have the real deal...These people made up new religions from the Book which has the same content of the Qur'an....
Ok, simple. Then explain away the handwriting analysis and radiometric dating done on the ancient manuscripts of the Torah and gospels THAT ARE THE SAME AS THE ONES WE HAVE TODAY that date centuries before the Quran. If what you are saying is true, then there should not exist a copy of the Torah and gospels that is older than the Quran. Similarly, there should be copies of the Quran that are older than Mohammed. Tell me where they are. Bring your proof, and not silly conjecture.
-Joel
-
Salamun Alaikum to All,
Quote from MM - Ok, simple. Then explain away the handwriting analysis and radiometric dating done on the ancient manuscripts of the Torah and gospels THAT ARE THE SAME AS THE ONES WE HAVE TODAY that date centuries before the Quran. If what you are saying is true, then there should not exist a copy of the Torah and gospels that is older than the Quran. Similarly, there should be copies of the Quran that are older than Mohammed. Tell me where they are. Bring your proof, and not silly conjecture.
Questions
- Who were the people who were present during the canonization of the NT in 375 AD? Are they Isrealites.
- In what language?
- During the convocation, did they confabulated with GOD?
- Did GOD mentioned in the original manuscript or most ancient copies or ancient copies of the Gospel that HE with HIS wisdom that he will replace the original copies or most ancient copies of the Gospel with the NT sometime later? If there is, please quote,
Thank you in advance and Peace
Sidi -
Peace Benigno
You are absolutely right but
The people used to be one community when GOD sent the prophets as bearers of good news, as well as warners. He sent down with them the scripture, bearing the truth, to judge among the people in their disputes. Ironically, those who received the scripture were the ones who rejected any new scripture, despite clear proofs given to them. This is due to jealousy on their part. GOD guides those who believe to the truth that is disputed by all others, in accordance with His will. GOD guides whoever wills in a straight path.How do they reject? By changing the words and the language used.
The late Bro Ahmad Deedat quotes, from a Christians source, in his book The Choice - The Quran or The Bible - pg 20.
It is hard for us to realized that when the books of the bible were originially written, there was no printing press to multiply the copies. Each copy must be made slowly and laboriously by hand. Under these conditions it was inevitable that many ancient books should be lost. This largely account to the fact that ALL the original manuscripts of the bible have perished.
I understand what you are saying and I am not disputing that. What I am saying is the Koran is fully aware of this but this what God has chosen to be handed to mankind. There seems to be a thinking that the Koran must be talking about some other Torah and Injeel but this is not the case at all. Muslims I think expected to find a Koran like scripture from the Torah and Injel but this is not the case. Jesus refered to the same Torah as the one we have and yet he said repeatedly that he came to confirm the Torah. Jesus attacked the Talmud and so did the Koran. Especially the aspects of the Talmud that violated the Torah commandments. Just like we attack the Sunnah that violated=s the teachings of the Koran. The Torah and Gospel are not God's words but God's books. Jesus however was God's word. Muhammad was not given the same revelation as Jesus as Jesus himself was the Koran. Each prophets had their own revelations. Only Muhammad was given God's word as a book.
-
As-Salaam Alaikum,
I really can't believe this is still being debated after so much evidence has been given.
No proof? Are you serious?
"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby." - al-Qur'an 279
What better proof do you need than the words of Allah themself? Also consider this, we agree that Isa (pbuh) and his disciples spoke Aramiac right? Well all of the New Testament's manuscripts are in Greek, a language Isa (pbuh) and his disciples never spoke. How then can you continue to believe that the New Testament is the original Injil? Also, most of the NT was written by Paul who is never mentioned in the Qur'an. Why is he never mentioned if we are to believe in his writings?
You keep accusing people of conspiracy theories and contradicting themselves yet you are the only one contradicting yourself. May Allah give you guidance.
If you read my article I have talked about this verse. You need to read the verses before it and after it.
-
I understand what you are saying and I am not disputing that. What I am saying is the Koran is fully aware of this but this what God has chosen to be handed to mankind. There seems to be a thinking that the Koran must be talking about some other Torah and Injeel but this is not the case at all. Muslims I think expected to find a Koran like scripture from the Torah and Injel but this is not the case. Jesus refered to the same Torah as the one we have and yet he said repeatedly that he came to confirm the Torah. Jesus attacked the Talmud and so did the Koran. Especially the aspects of the Talmud that violated the Torah commandments. Just like we attack the Sunnah that violated=s the teachings of the Koran. The Torah and Gospel are not God's words but God's books. Jesus however was God's word. Muhammad was not given the same revelation as Jesus as Jesus himself was the Koran. Each prophets had their own revelations. Only Muhammad was given God's word as a book.
But the Qur'an we have it today. We do not have Isa today, that is if Isa is the same as Jesus, and that is very open to question.
Salaam
-
Salamun Alaikum to All,
Questions
- Who were the people who were present during the canonization of the NT in 375 AD? Are they Isrealites.
- In what language?
- During the convocation, did they confabulated with GOD?
- Did GOD mentioned in the original manuscript or most ancient copies or ancient copies of the Gospel that HE with HIS wisdom that he will replace the original copies or most ancient copies of the Gospel with the NT sometime later? If there is, please quote,
Thank you in advance and Peace
SidiDoesn't matter. According to 33, it was God who sent them down. Your concern is with the process of how it was sent down, because it was different than revelation of Quran. But if you believe the Quran, you have no real choice to accept the inspiration of Torah and Gospel. What we have today is the same as what was present at the time of Mohammed.
-
Salaam sun
You can read 33 in AQ and read Bible and fullfill your blind wishes, but if you read all MAryam and Isa Chapters and forget that forgeries from Bible maybe you you will get into too something...
Im a Msulim , i take only AQ, taking bible to cnheck AQ is absurd and no sense, that i cal IBIBLeSSSalaam
-
Salaam sun
You can read 33 in AQ and read Bible and fullfill your blind wishes, but if you read all MAryam and Isa Chapters and forget that forgeries from Bible maybe you you will get into too something...
Im a Msulim , i take only AQ, taking bible to cnheck AQ is absurd and no sense, that i cal IBIBLeSSSalaam
Please give us your exegesis of 541-49, thank you.