The Bible Is Not The Tawrat (Torah) & Injil (Gospel)

[Hoppean]

I'm not sure if this is aimed directly at me, or just a general statement, but it does appear to be at least aimed at my role in this discussion.

Here is the problem. So long as you assume I am some evangelist, coming here with some subtle means of spreading a Jewish or Christian agenda, of course there is no way we can have a true discussion. If this is your view, then I am an outsider who can't be trusted or reasonably listened to. We cannot have a discussion as brothers.

I can assure you I am no evangelist. I actually began reading the Quran several years ago to try and discredit it, but found that it is the same message from the same God who inspired the Bible. I rejected the trinity, substitutionary atonement, etc. I almost completely lost a relationship with my parents because I refused to allow my minister father to baptize my children, and told him that he needed to read the Quran for himself instead of believing what he sees on foxnews.

So don't assume for a moment that I don't have some skin in the game when it comes to this. I take the suggestion that I am an evangelist with subtle methods to be an offensive idea and an insult.

Peace Maverick,

It is very telling that those who are so vehement in their rejection of the Bible, will not come near the Quranic verses. I will patiently wait for a "good" bible rejecting "quranist" to provide exegesis of 541-49.

As 33-4 reveals these people are in serious error. "Nazzala AAalayka alkitaba bialhaqqi musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi waanzala alttawrata waalinjeela, Min qablu hudan lilnnasi waanzala alfurqana inna allatheena kafaroo biayati Allahi lahum AAathabun shadeedun waAllahu AAazeezun thoo intiqamin"

He has sent down on you the book in truth confirming what is between its hands, that is He sent down the Torah and the Injeel before this, as a guidance to men, that is He has sent down the criterion. Truly those who suppress and deny the truth of God's signs, for them is a severe punishment; and God is Almighty, Avenging

[huruf]

I'm not sure if this is aimed directly at me, or just a general statement, but it does appear to be at least aimed at my role in this discussion.

Here is the problem. So long as you assume I am some evangelist, coming here with some subtle means of spreading a Jewish or Christian agenda, of course there is no way we can have a true discussion. If this is your view, then I am an outsider who can't be trusted or reasonably listened to. We cannot have a discussion as brothers.

I can assure you I am no evangelist. I actually began reading the Quran several years ago to try and discredit it, but found that it is the same message from the same God who inspired the Bible. I rejected the trinity, substitutionary atonement, etc. I almost completely lost a relationship with my parents because I refused to allow my minister father to baptize my children, and told him that he needed to read the Quran for himself instead of believing what he sees on foxnews.

So don't assume for a moment that I don't have some skin in the game when it comes to this. I take the suggestion that I am an evangelist with subtle methods to be an offensive idea and an insult.

I take your word for that and congratulate you on that and if I have assumed something of the kind I withdraw it and glad to do so and please forgive me. Still I rather have clarity as to even that.

But I have not done it in a void. There are those kinds of assaults, and very insistently.

So please, forget that part of the message.

What nevertheless, I suppose, should be feasible, is to mark which parts of the bible are direct revelation like the Qur'an, those which purport to be rendition of revelation to somebody else, and those who are simple narrations. Because what you are yourself finally is not the question, the question is what the bible is and that we should not be talking about something which is not clearly defined and which is what mattered inmy previous post.

That I think is quite legitimate, in order, as you say to have a true discussion. Without that we are talking at cross purposes.

And this I mean really independently of any identity you may or may not have, but if you are going to profit from the Qur'an You will benefit if you take it on its own. Drop the baggage we may have previously and look at it like an ummy, like the Prophet did, like a clean slate. Whatever may anybody have told you that you need this and that to read the Qur'an, it is better if you go to it empty, so it may fill you. And then you will understand and see everything else much better. Really, it is that way and not the other way around. That would be my advice, and it is really not my idea or my discovery, it is from people from whom I have learnt a lot. And if I have not learnt more it is due to my own shortcomings.

Some christians who initially have sympathy for islam (like it was my case) start by those similitudes or familiar personalitie sor concepts, but eventually they drop that peg and let go of it. Then it beomes the other way around; you understand better other religions and concepts through taking the Qur'an as the matrix, as the mother, and the other as offshoots or facets.

Salaam

[MaverickMonotheist]

Peace huruf,

Thank you for a respectful and thoughtful reply. God willing, soon I will give you a suitable reply.

-Joel

I take your word for that and congratulate you on that and if I have assumed something of the kind I withdraw it and glad to do so and please forgive me. Still I rather have clarity as to even that.

But I have not done it in a void. There are those kinds of assaults, and very insistently.

So please, forget that part of the message.

What nevertheless, I suppose, should be feasible, is to mark which parts of the bible are direct revelation like the Qur'an, those which purport to be rendition of revelation to somebody else, and those who are simple narrations. Because what you are yourself finally is not the question, the question is what the bible is and that we should not be talking about something which is not clearly defined and which is what mattered inmy previous post.

That I think is quite legitimate, in order, as you say to have a true discussion. Without that we are talking at cross purposes.

And this I mean really independently of any identity you may or may not have, but if you are going to profit from the Qur'an You will benefit if you take it on its own. Drop the baggage we may have previously and look at it like an ummy, like the Prophet did, like a clean slate. Whatever may anybody have told you that you need this and that to read the Qur'an, it is better if you go to it empty, so it may fill you. And then you will understand and see everything else much better. Really, it is that way and not the other way around. That would be my advice, and it is really not my idea or my discovery, it is from people from whom I have learnt a lot. And if I have not learnt more it is due to my own shortcomings.

Some christians who initially have sympathy for islam (like it was my case) start by those similitudes or familiar personalitie sor concepts, but eventually they drop that peg and let go of it. Then it beomes the other way around; you understand better other religions and concepts through taking the Qur'an as the matrix, as the mother, and the other as offshoots or facets.

Salaam

[Sidi]

salaam to all

Ive been out of home this week thats why im posting less, but InhsAllah all of you are in good health and in Peace and Blesings of Allah sun

SIDI you saidHe will revealed the revelation in stages but he died before he accomplised his mission.

where in AQ says that Isa died before accomplished his mission? really like to know because theres no one passage with that..unleast in my AQ.
Not pointing to you, but really wish to know wheres that passageD O0

Salaam to all

NOMAD AlAndalusi

Salamun Alaikum To All

No problem Bro Nomad, you have every rights to question me and I like that,

AQ- "He will speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult; he will be one of the righteous."

The above verse tell us that that he revealed the Gospel when he was a baby up adulthood,

When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are submitters."

"Our Lord, we have believed in what You have sent down, and we have followed the messenger; count us among the witnesses."

They plotted and schemed, but so did GOD, and GOD is the best schemer.

Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.

AND

"I told them only what You commanded me to say, that `You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You terminated my life, You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things.

The verses tells us that Pro Jesus died during his ministry on a drastic moment.

Furthermore

Have you noted those who were given part of the scripture, and how they are invited to uphold this scripture of GOD, and apply it to their own lives, then some of them turn away in aversion?

The above Quranic verse confirmed that what the people of the book have with them is incomplete and they were invited to believe in the Quran for their own salvation.

I hope this helps and please correct me if I have left out any.

Take care Brother, have a good journey and salam

[Sidi]

Peace Maverick,

It is very telling that those who are so vehement in their rejection of the Bible, will not come near the Quranic verses. I will patiently wait for a "good" bible rejecting "quranist" to provide exegesis of 541-49.

As 33-4 reveals these people are in serious error. "Nazzala AAalayka alkitaba bialhaqqi musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi waanzala alttawrata waalinjeela, Min qablu hudan lilnnasi waanzala alfurqana inna allatheena kafaroo biayati Allahi lahum AAathabun shadeedun waAllahu AAazeezun thoo intiqamin"

He has sent down on you the book in truth confirming what is between its hands, that is He sent down the Torah and the Injeel before this, as a guidance to men, that is He has sent down the criterion. Truly those who suppress and deny the truth of God's signs, for them is a severe punishment; and God is Almighty, Avenging

I have already explain to MM with regards to AQ05-41-49. It is on this page 5.

Furthuremore the translation of 0303-04 is inappropiate, should be-

0303 Sent down to you the book in truth confirming what is between your hands and sent down The Torah and The Injeel

0304 Before this was a guidance to men and HE sent down The Criterion......

The Criterion is The Quran. Please check 02185 and 2501

[Hoppean]

I have already explain to MM with regards to AQ05-41-49. It is on this page 5.

No you did not. In fact your "interpretation" was so self evidently contrary to the text, I thought it best not to comment. You are wrong that 543 is addressing Jews and Christians, it is addressing Jews only, try reading 541-42 while following the pronouns. This is the only point I could gather from your confused writings, at the end you conclude that the "gospel is incomplete or fabricated", if that is so then tell us how can God command people to follow a gospel which is "incomplete and fabricated" see 547?? Conveniently, you left that verse out of your "analysis"!! I maintain my request for exegesis of 541-49, post each verse sequentially and explain their meaning. Cutting up the Quran into little pieces to suit your fancies is not exegesis! Jumping in and out of various contexts to string along an incoherent theory is not exegesis!

Furthuremore the translation of 0303-04 is inappropiate, should be-

0303 Sent down to you the book in truth confirming what is between your hands and sent down The Torah and The Injeel

0304 Before this was a guidance to men and HE sent down The Criterion......

There is no "your" hands at 33, it is bayna yadayhi between his/its hands; "hi" is 3rd person singular. Further, "wa" is not always equivalent to "and" in modern english, it can also serve as a clarifying preposition, and that is how I have translated it.

The Criterion is The Quran. Please check 02185 and 2501

Finally, the Quran is NOT exclusively referred to as "al furqan". 253 and 2148 tell us that Moses and Aaron received the Furqan as well, it is you who are denying that this Furqan given to Moses and Aaron still exists within the Torah of today. Yet 33-4 contradicts you completely!

[Sidi]

No you did not. In fact your "interpretation" was so self evidently contrary to the text, I thought it best not to comment. You are wrong that 543 is addressing Jews and Christians, it is addressing Jews only, try reading 541-42 while following the pronouns. This is the only point I could gather from your confused writings, at the end you conclude that the "gospel is incomplete or fabricated", if that is so then tell us how can God command people to follow a gospel which is "incomplete and fabricated" see 547?? Conveniently, you left that verse out of your "analysis"!! I maintain my request for exegesis of 541-49, post each verse sequentially and explain their meaning. Cutting up the Quran into little pieces to suit your fancies is not exegesis! Jumping in and out of various contexts to string along an incoherent theory is not exegesis!

It is you who REFUSE to understand. I have given a very simple explanation. The fact is that you do not understand the intricacies of the Quranic system. To read the Quran from one angle is not appropiate. You interprete the Quran to your liking in order to deceive. What can we expect from a Bani Isreal, your forefathers have been doing that. Blood is much thicker then water.

Seems to me that you smart alex bani Isreal, explain to me those verses.

[Hoppean]

It is you who REFUSE to understand. I have given a very simple explanation. The fact is that you do not understand the intricacies of the Quranic system. To read the Quran from one angle is not appropiate. You interprete the Quran to your liking in order to deceive. What can we expect from a Bani Isreal, your forefathers have been doing that. Blood is much thicker then water. Seems to me that you smart alex bani Isreal, explain to me those verses.

Enough of this back and forth. This is not a joke, it is a serious matter, it relates to what God has or has not revealed. If you claim that those books called the Torah and Injeel today, are in fact corruptions/fabrications, then the burden is on you to explain the relevant Quranic verses. For your benefit, since you seem not to trust my own translations, I have posted below the verses in question, from three "reliable Muslim" translators.

Further, I will help you out with 541-43 The messenger is here told not to grive over hypocrites who eagerly devour evil and falsehood, even among the Jews. That he may judge equitably between them, if they come to him; however, he has no obligation to do so. Then the messenger is asked rhetorically Why should the Jews come to him when they have the Torah wherein is God's judgment? Yet they are turning away from it and therefore are not believers.

From these 3 verses alone it should be obvious that 1) At the time of the Quranic revelation, the Jews were in posession of a divine revelation, which God calls "Taurat" and 2) That the messenger's revelation (the Quran) did not in anyway supercede it. If it were not so, then the Jews definitely should have come to the messenger for judgment, which would make 543 meaningless and self contradictory.

I'll let you take it from here. Please remember to provide an explanation of each verse that is consistent with your belief that the Torah and Injeel, existing at the time of the Quranic revelation, were "fabrications". Also remember, it is irrelevant what you may think Torah and Injeel "really" mean, for you must interpret your definition, whatever it may be, consistently with the verses below.

005.041
YUSUFALI O Messenger! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such - it is not Allah's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
PICKTHAL O Messenger! Let not them grieve thee who vie one with another in the race to disbelief, of such as say with their mouths "We believe," but their hearts believe not, and of the Jews listeners for the sake of falsehood, listeners on behalf of other folk who come not unto thee, changing words from their context and saying If this be given unto you, receive it, but if this be not given unto you, then beware! He whom Allah doometh unto sin, thou (by thine efforts) wilt avail him naught against Allah. Those are they for whom the Will of Allah is that He cleanse not their hearts. Theirs in the world will be ignominy, and in the Hereafter an awful doom;
SHAKIR O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.

005.042
YUSUFALI (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For Allah loveth those who judge in equity.
PICKTHAL Listeners for the sake of falsehood! Greedy for illicit gain! If then they have recourse unto thee (Muhammad) judge between them or disclaim jurisdiction. If thou disclaimest jurisdiction, then they cannot harm thee at all. But if thou judgest, judge between them with equity. Lo! Allah loveth the equitable.
SHAKIR (They are) listeners of a lie, devourers of what is forbidden; therefore if they come to you, judge between them or turn aside from them, and if you turn aside from them, they shall not harm you in any way; and if you judge, judge between them with equity; surely Allah loves those who judge equitably.

005.043
YUSUFALI But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
PICKTHAL How come they unto thee for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? Yet even after that they turn away. Such (folk) are not believers.
SHAKIR And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.

005.044
YUSUFALI It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
PICKTHAL Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And barter not My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed such are disbelievers.
SHAKIR Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

005.045
YUSUFALI We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
PICKTHAL And We prescribed for them therein The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed such are wrong-doers.
SHAKIR And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.

005.046
YUSUFALI And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
PICKTHAL And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

005.047
YUSUFALI Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
PICKTHAL Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

005.048
YUSUFALI To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
PICKTHAL And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
SHAKIR And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

005.049
YUSUFALI And this (He commands) Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah's purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.
PICKTHAL So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers.
SHAKIR And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors.

[Sidi]

I'll let you take it from here. Please remember to provide an explanation of each verse that is consistent with your belief that the Torah and Injeel, existing at the time of the Quranic revelation, were "fabrications". Also remember, it is irrelevant what you may think Torah and Injeel "really" mean, for you must interpret your definition, whatever it may be, consistently with the verses below.

Do you think that i am joking with you. Is this forum a place for people to joke around?

I never say that the Torah is fabricated. In fact the Jewish law still stands AQ-06146 AND AQ-06154, which states that it was a complete book. I did mentioned that the gospel was incomplete or fabricated.

I understand very well of the verses 0541-49.

Explain to me

1-0323 & 0444 - Who are these people who were given "The Portion of The Book"

2-0253-Explain "izh" and "kitab", what kitab was GOD refering to?

[Bigmo]

Do you think that i am joking with you. Is this forum a place for people to joke around?

I never say that the Torah is fabricated. In fact the Jewish law still stands AQ-06146 AND AQ-06154, which states that it was a complete book. I did mentioned that the gospel was incomplete or fabricated.

I understand very well of the verses 0541-49.

Explain to me

1-0323 & 0444 - Who are these people who were given "The Portion of The Book"

2-0253-Explain "izh" and "kitab", what kitab was GOD refering to?

The problem here is that people are expecting a Quran like scripture from the previous scriptures and because they don't find the previous scriptures are like that they think it is not valid. You know millions of people follow the Torah and Gospel, in fact probably billions. They are scriptures that have insired many men and women towards God's path. It's was those scriptures contain that is important.

28.48-54 But (now), when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say "For us, we reject all (such things)!" Say "Then bring ye a Book from Allah, which is a better guide than either of them, that I may follow it! (do), if ye are truthful!" But if they hearken not to thee, know that they only follow their own lusts and who is more astray than one who follow his own lusts, devoid of guidance from Allah. for Allah guides not people given to wrong-doing. Now have We caused the Word to reach them themselves, in order that they may receive admonition. Those to whom We sent the Book before this,- they do believe in this (revelation) And when it is recited to them, they say "We believe therein, for it is the Truth from our Lord indeed we have been Muslims (bowing to Allah.s Will) from before this. Twice will they be given their reward, for that they have persevered, that they avert Evil with Good, and that they spend (in charity) out of what We have given them

The Koran does not seperate between itself and the previous scriptures because they all contain God's commands and the prophet's teachings.

[MaverickMonotheist]

The problem here is that people are expecting a Quran like scripture from the previous scriptures and because they don't find the previous scriptures are like that they think it is not valid. You know millions of people follow the Torah and Gospel, in fact probably billions. They are scriptures that have insired many men and women towards God's path. It's was those scriptures contain that is important.

THIS. Previous scriptures are a different style of writing, but ultimately the same message from the same God. I came to believe in the inspiration of the Quran by trying to disprove it in comparison to the Bible.

[Sidi]

Peace Bigmo

The problem here is that people are expecting a Quran like scripture from the previous scriptures and because they don't find the previous scriptures are like that they think it is not valid. You know millions of people follow the Torah and Gospel, in fact probably billions. They are scriptures that have insired many men and women towards God's path. It's was those scriptures contain that is important.

AQ-1736 Do not accept anything that you yourself cannot ascertain. You are given the hearing, the sight and the mind in order to examine and verify.

Even with The Quran you are to verify. I will try to explain 0544 to 0547, which are definition, it is up to you to verify. If you think that I am wrong, correct me.

First Portion of THE BOOK mentioned in 0689 that was given to 16 of the 18 Prophets
We have sent down the Torah, containing guidance and light. Judge by it the prophets, those who had submitted, those who were Jewish and the rabbis and the priests, with which they were entrusted of GOD's scripture, and they were witness to it. Do not fear human beings; you shall fear Me and do not trade away My revelations for a cheap price. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the disbelievers.

1. The 1st portion of the Book was sent to all people - The people of Noah, Hud, Saleh, Abraham, Lot up to Moses.
2. New directives - The Haj ritual was to be carried out as per info from the Quran 02125 to 127, 0396 to 97 and 2226 to 31. This directives were given to Pro. Abraham.
3. Prove to me from The Torah perspective , that the haj ritual is stipulated in it. Tell me where.

Second Portion of The Book - given to Pro Moses, 1 of the 18 prophets mentioned in 0689 And we decreed for them in it that the life for the life, the eye for the eye, the nose for the nose, the ear for the ear, the tooth for the tooth, and an equivalent injury for any injury. If one forfeits what is due to him as a charity, it will atone for his sins. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the unjust.

1. Second Portion of The Book was sent to Pro Moses for the children of Isreal and also the believers of the people of the Pharoah.
2. New directives were added and that is the Criterion - AQ-0253 & 2148
3. 0543 proves that the Torah prevails during the era of Pro Muhammad

Third Portion of The Book - The Gospel given to Pro. Jesus - 1 of the 18 prophets mentioned Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming what was before him, The Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming what is between his hand, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.

The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked.

1. The Gospel was given to the children of Isreal as Prophet Jesus was sent to the Children of Isreal - AQ-0349
2. The Gospel was The Word of GOD - 04171
3. Prove to me that The Gospel prevails during the era of Pro. Muhammad as The Torah was.

*The Torah was never mentioned as a Book as far as The Quran is concern. It is a part of The Book that GOD sent after Pro Abraham.

Peace

[MaverickMonotheist]

Sidi,

I'm not sure what the point is in claiming that there are portions of the book based on the chronology of 544-547. But I will address two of the questions/points that you make here.

3. Prove to me from The Torah perspective , that the haj ritual is stipulated in it. Tell me where.

Exodus 3423 - Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.

Deuteronomy 1616 - Three times a year all your males shall appear before the LORD your God at the place that he will choose at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, at the Feast of Weeks, and at the Feast of Booths. They shall not appear before the LORD empty-handed.

What would be interesting for someone such as Layth to do would be to see if the three feasts of Israel mentioned here fall within the months of hajj in the Quran.

3. Prove to me that The Gospel prevails during the era of Pro. Muhammad as The Torah was.

546 And We sent in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, authenticating what was present with him of the Torah. And We gave him the Gospel, in it is a guidance and a light, and authenticating what was present with him of the Torah, and a guidance and a lesson for the righteous.
547 And let the people of the Gospel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.

I would think that it is referred to as a "guidance and light" and a "guidance and lesson for the righteous" would be enough. But then there is the admonition for the people of the gospel (still waiting for someone to give me an Arabic etymology of "injeel" to disprove my assertion that it is a loan word from the Greek) to judge with it. If I am right, and "injeel" is a loan word from the Greek for "good news", then the "people of the injeel" is ANYONE who accepts the good news of God's revelation and guidance.

-Joel

[Bigmo]

Peace Bigmo

AQ-1736 Do not accept anything that you yourself cannot ascertain. You are given the hearing, the sight and the mind in order to examine and verify.

Even with The Quran you are to verify. I will try to explain 0544 to 0547, which are definition, it is up to you to verify. If you think that I am wrong, correct me.

First Portion of THE BOOK mentioned in 0689 that was given to 16 of the 18 Prophets
We have sent down the Torah, containing guidance and light. Judge by it the prophets, those who had submitted, those who were Jewish and the rabbis and the priests, with which they were entrusted of GOD's scripture, and they were witness to it. Do not fear human beings; you shall fear Me and do not trade away My revelations for a cheap price. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the disbelievers.

1. The 1st portion of the Book was sent to all people - The people of Noah, Hud, Saleh, Abraham, Lot up to Moses.
2. New directives - The Haj ritual was to be carried out as per info from the Quran 02125 to 127, 0396 to 97 and 2226 to 31. This directives were given to Pro. Abraham.
3. Prove to me from The Torah perspective , that the haj ritual is stipulated in it. Tell me where.

Second Portion of The Book - given to Pro Moses, 1 of the 18 prophets mentioned in 0689 And we decreed for them in it that the life for the life, the eye for the eye, the nose for the nose, the ear for the ear, the tooth for the tooth, and an equivalent injury for any injury. If one forfeits what is due to him as a charity, it will atone for his sins. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the unjust.

1. Second Portion of The Book was sent to Pro Moses for the children of Isreal and also the believers of the people of the Pharoah.
2. New directives were added and that is the Criterion - AQ-0253 & 2148
3. 0543 proves that the Torah prevails during the era of Pro Muhammad

Third Portion of The Book - The Gospel given to Pro. Jesus - 1 of the 18 prophets mentioned Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming what was before him, The Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming what is between his hand, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.

The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked.

1. The Gospel was given to the children of Isreal as Prophet Jesus was sent to the Children of Isreal - AQ-0349
2. The Gospel was The Word of GOD - 04171
3. Prove to me that The Gospel prevails during the era of Pro. Muhammad as The Torah was.

*The Torah was never mentioned as a Book as far as The Quran is concern. It is a part of The Book that GOD sent after Pro Abraham.

Peace

But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have the Torah before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)

2.41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.

2.91 When it is said to them, ?Believe in what God Hath sent down, ?they say, ?We believe in what was sent down to us? yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say ?Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe??

The term the Koran uses is "bayn aydeehim" meaning between their hands. What they have possession of. What is with them. Now the question is is these scriptures the Koran is talking about any different than the scriptures the Jews have today?

[Sidi]

Peace Maverick,

I'm not sure what the point is in claiming that there are portions of the book based on the chronology of 544-547. But I will address two of the questions/points that you make here.

0544-47 is a definition with regards to The Book that was sent to mankind. My point is that GOD, with HIS wisdom, sent from Pro Noah to Pro Jesus THE BOOK mentioned in 0689, which was a canon comprising of The Torah and The Gospel and that The Torah was a Portion of the Book if it is without The Gospel. The Torah is complete at its own level.

I would think that it is referred to as a "guidance and light" and a "guidance and lesson for the righteous" would be enough.

I do believe that there are some similarities between Pro Jesus and Pro Muhammad with regards to inspiration that was sent to them. The only difference is that Jesus was given the inspiration from a young age. Jesus was the Word of GOD - guidance and light and lesson for the righteous. I believe that his desiple might have recorded this guidance, but the question is did he complete his mission before his demise? From the Quranic perspective, it seems that he did not. If thats the case, is it not that guidance and light incomplete? And is that the reason why The Quran refered The Torah as stipulated below

Have you noted those who were given part of the scripture, and how they are invited to uphold this scripture of GOD, and apply it to their own lives, then some of them turn away in aversion?
which has a corelation with
Why do they ask you to judge among them, when they have the Torah, containing GOD's law, and they chose to disregard it? They are not believers.

I am not a linguistic but I know that The Injeel which Jesus spoke was in Aramaic and Aramaic derives from Arabia. It was the Greek who copied the word.

*The Torah was never mentioned as a Book as far as The Quran is concern. It is a part of The Book that GOD sent after Pro Abraham.

From the above which I quote and I like to correct myself that The Torah was refered to as a book as stated by the Quran 0287 and 1701

Peace

[Jafar]

The term the Koran uses is "bayn aydeehim" meaning between their hands. What they have possession of. What is with them. Now the question is is these scriptures the Koran is talking about any different than the scriptures the Jews have today?

The Torah (Law/Instruction in Hebrew) is the Ten Commandment..
And not the "Torah" as we know today.. by definition...

Now the name 'Torah' refer to compilation of "Five Books (which they say) Written By Moses".

Oddly enough although those books are said to be written by Moses, there are story within regarding Moses death.. hmmm Moses is quite 'magnificent' to be able to write a story regarding his own death. (sarcastic mode on)

The 'original Torah' a.k.a Ten Commandments supposedly being written in the stone tablet which went missing.
And theoretically it should be written in 'iconic script' such as the egyptian hieroglyph, given the 'israelites' has not yet adopted "Consonant based Phoenician script" during that time..

When the Quran refer to "Torah" (instruction) it meant the "Ten Commandments".
When the Quran refer to Zaboor, "The Book of David" it meant the "Psalms".

Salam / Peace

[Gnosis]

The 'original Torah' a.k.a Ten Commandments supposedly being written in the stone tablet which went missing.
And theoretically it should be written in 'iconic script' such as the egyptian hieroglyph, given the 'israelites' has not yet adopted "Consonant based Phoenician script" during that time..

As-Salaam Alaikum brother,

Indeed! The Ten Commandments were originally written in hieroglyphs, and there were originally more than ten of them!

http//anu-world.com/id22.html

Good job acknowledging this, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

[Jafar]

As-Salaam Alaikum brother,

Indeed! The Ten Commandments were originally written in hieroglyphs, and there were originally more than ten of them!

http//anu-world.com/id22.html

Good job acknowledging this, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

Of course.. it's logically natural for it to be written in some form of iconic script / hieroglyph..

Although some people also thought that it was originally written in Arabic script! D with Southern Arabia dialect.. rotfl rotfl

Thanks for the link.. will investigate further later on..

[mmkhan]

The 'original Torah' a.k.a Ten Commandments supposedly being written in the stone tablet which went missing.

Salaam,

If you are referring to what was given to Musa was written in the stone tablet, it was not nope

7144
7144 He said "O Moses, I have chosen you over the people with My message and My words; so take what I have given you and be of the thankful."

7145
7145 And We wrote for him on the planks from all things a lesson, and detailing all things. Take it with strength and order your people to take the best from it. I will show you the abode of the wicked.

Please note the Arabic word AlWaahin.

5412
5412 And We caused springs to gush out of the earth. Thus the waters met to a command which had been measured.

5413
5413 And We carried him on that which was made of planks and nails.

This was about Noah, he was not bored on ark made of stone tablets nope no, no... surely not nope D

May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
mmKhan

[Bigmo]

The Torah (Law/Instruction in Hebrew) is the Ten Commandment..
And not the "Torah" as we know today.. by definition...

Now the name 'Torah' refer to compilation of "Five Books (which they say) Written By Moses".

Oddly enough although those books are said to be written by Moses, there are story within regarding Moses death.. hmmm Moses is quite 'magnificent' to be able to write a story regarding his own death. (sarcastic mode on)

The 'original Torah' a.k.a Ten Commandments supposedly being written in the stone tablet which went missing.
And theoretically it should be written in 'iconic script' such as the egyptian hieroglyph, given the 'israelites' has not yet adopted "Consonant based Phoenician script" during that time..

When the Quran refer to "Torah" (instruction) it meant the "Ten Commandments".
When the Quran refer to Zaboor, "The Book of David" it meant the "Psalms".

Salam / Peace

Psalms are David's poetry so your talk of Moses not writing the Torah is not relevant as the Koran never said he did. As far as the ten commandments these are what God gave Moses in tablet form. It is not accurate to say that the Torah is the ten commandments because the Koran clearly said "let them bring forth the Torah" and also said that prostration to the ground is found in the Torah.

Muhammad is the Messenger of God. Those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers merciful one to another. You see them bowing, prostrating, seeking blessing, bounty and good pleasure (of God). Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows strong and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them it may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage(4829)

Genesis 171-4 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Deuteronomy 56-9 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 7 Thou shalt have none other gods before Me. 8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them nor serve them...

Psalm 956 O come, let us worship and bow down let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.

Revelations 711-12 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Joshua 76-7 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the Lord until eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads. 7 And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord God, wherefore hast Thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? Would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side of the Jordan!

Numbers 1620-22 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying, 21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. 22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt Thou be wroth with the all of the congregation?

Numbers 206 And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces and the glory of the Lord appeared unto them.

Matthew 2636-39 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gesthemane, and saith unto his disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. 37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be very sorrowful and heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death; tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou Wilt.

Then the man bowed down and worshipped the Lord. (Genesis, 2426)

...So they sang praises with gladness and bowed their heads and worshipped. (2 Chronicles, 2930)

and I bowed down and worshiped the Lord. I praised the Lord?(Genesis, 244

.... Then the people bowed down and worshipped...did just what the Lord commanded Moses and Aaron. (Exodus, 1227-2

and they believed. And when they heard that the Lord was concerned about them and had seen their misery, they bowed down and worshipped. (Exodus, 431)

and bowed down...three times, with his face to the ground. (1 Samuel, 2041)

Ezra praised the Lord, the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, "Amen! Amen!" Then they bowed down and worshipped the Lord with their faces to the ground. (Nehemiah, 86)

Abram bowed with his face touching the ground...(Genesis, 173)

When Abraham's servant heard what they said, he bowed down to the ground before the Lord. (Genesis, 2452)

Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshipped. (Exodus, 34

When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. (Numbers, 164)

the oracle of one who hears the words of God, who sees a vision from the Almighty, who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened. (Numbers, 244)

Then Joshua bowed to the ground in reverence...(Joshua, 514)

When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The Lord?He is God! The Lord?He is God!"(1 Kings, 1839)

when I bow down in the temple...may the Lord forgive your servant for this. (2 Kings, 51

they bowed low and fell prostrate before the Lord. (1 Chronicles, 2920)

they knelt on the pavement with their faces to the ground, and they worshipped and gave thanks to the Lord...(2 Chronicles, 73)

... the king and everyone present with him knelt down and worshipped... ordered... to praise the Lord. So they sang praises with gladness and bowed their heads and worshipped. (2 Chronicles, 2929-30)

Then he fell to the ground in worship and said ?Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised.? (Job, 120-21)

As fas as what Torah generally means it means the scriptures the Jews have and even the Jews someimes used the Torah to describe all the scriptures and not just the 5 books of Moses. These definitions are human definitions and change according to the times.

The earliest name for the first part of the Bible seems to have been "The Torah of Moses." This title, however, is found neither in the Torah itself, nor in the works of the pre-Exilic literary prophets. It appears in Joshua (831?32; 236) and Kings (I Kings 23; II Kings 146; 2325), but it cannot be said to refer there to the entire corpus. In contrast, there is every likelihood that its use in the post-Exilic works (Mal. 322; Dan. 911, 13; Ezra 32; 76; Neh. 81; II Chron. 2318; 3016) was intended to be comprehensive. Other early titles were "The Book of Moses" (Ezra 618; Neh. 131; II Chron. 3512; 254; cf. II Kings 146) and "The Book of the Torah" (Neh. 83) which seems to be a contraction of a fuller name, "The Book of the Torah of God" (Neh. 88, 18; 1029?30; cf. 93).

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

The word "Torah" is a tricky one, because it can mean different things in different contexts. In its most limited sense, "Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. But the word "torah" can also be used to refer to the entire Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings.

http//www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm