Cleavage and Verse 24:31
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I understand but I disagree that jalousy is something that you can find more in women
I don t think it s gender related I do think women are pressured to be beautiful and men not that s the biggest difference but if you look at men they compete with other things like power and fortune so I leave that to Allah cause he knows humanity best and he knows what s in the hide and whats in the open.And about anger I totally disagree as well because men are physically far mor stronger than woman and maybe if we had the same strenght and power the damage would be equal, Allah knows best.
I just think people should stick to the boundry s of Allah and not decide on their own what s not to be done because where do you draw the line, look at my previous post what if a simple black dress looks beautiful on you what should you were then?
people differ in taste.if somebody bakes a nice cake and make it really good looking some will probably say that person is showing off??
and further more I think people are free to express their personality and their culture through clothing and other materials and also yes look beautiful and show their nice taste I love it if people change ideas and learn from eachothers cultures.
I think nice things are a delight for my eyes and something I can appreciate very muchLook how bad it is in Saudi Arabia, everyone is wearing black, no expression no culture, because why? people can t express their self.
I think that s a dangerous mindset and Im definetely not supporting it.If people can t appreciate nice things it s kind of their problem, especially if they take it as arrogance, let Allah be the judge
and showing off is not a synonym for arrogance, arrogance is feeling/acting that your better if you ask me.I think we better agree to disagree.
Peace peace
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I understand but I disagree that jalousy is something that you can find more in women
I don t think it s gender related I do think women are pressured to be beautiful and men not that s the biggest difference but if you look at men they compete with other things like power and fortune so I leave that to Allah cause he knows humanity best and he knows what s in the hide and whats in the open.And about anger I totally disagree as well because men are physically far mor stronger than woman and maybe if we had the same strenght and power the damage would be equal, Allah knows best.
I just think people should stick to the boundry s of Allah and not decide on their own what s not to be done because where do you draw the line, look at my previous post what if a simple black dress looks beautiful on you what should you were then?
people differ in taste.if somebody bakes a nice cake and make it really good looking some will probably say that person is showing off??
and further more I think people are free to express their personality and their culture through clothing and other materials and also yes look beautiful and show their nice taste I love it if people change ideas and learn from eachothers cultures.
I think nice things are a delight for my eyes and something I can appreciate very muchLook how bad it is in Saudi Arabia, everyone is wearing black, no expression no culture, because why? people can t express their self.
I think that s a dangerous mindset and Im definetely not supporting it.If people can t appreciate nice things it s kind of their problem, especially if they take it as arrogance, let Allah be the judge
and showing off is not a synonym for arrogance, arrogance is feeling/acting that your better if you ask me.I think we better agree to disagree.
Peace peace
Disagree in what? You are saying the same I said. I quote myself
"Vanity and jealousy are not "feminine" shortcomings but human shortcomings, just like anger and highhadedness are not male shortcomings but human shortcomings. "
Salaam
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I think we do. I don t care if women are more 'socially aproved' being jalouse cause I know that women are more demonized by society and it probably doesn t matter where you live so I don t care for labels
and also I do think beauty is ment to be shown off wich you disagree on as I quote you( 'Beauty is a "beatiful" thing, we should enjoy it, but not make a show off of it) what s the point if it s not been showed? it s a gift to humanity and it s something people can exchange like their culture.
peace
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Allah knows best who shows of and who doesn t people will accuse eachother of doing so like I said Allah knows best who s arrogant and who s not if someone is expressing their identity by their taste etc it s easy to accuse one fast of showing off instead of just showing.
Yes, let s leave it at this.
Peace
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Hmm i'm still unsure of a proper answer. The idea of a cleavage is fairly modern, thus I'd think that the verse refers to how people just either bared it all or not at all. Here we have the idea of having a bit of cleavage out which has your breasts covered, but a thin line in the middle still shows.
So yeah... i'm still stuck on an answer / Sure there is the idea of "you can do it as long as your intention isn't sexual" but I don't see this verse as stating you can't beautify yourself otherwise we'd have to cover ourselves completely like our hair and such as anything on a woman can be sexual really and same goes for a man.
Thus rather I think the private parts refers to the fact that it is shameful to have out as well as invitation to sex and the breasts are as well another invitation to sex. So therefore I believe that breasts are to be covered from all except to what is stated there whether it is lust or not. Thus why I wanna know if the cleavage can shown if the breasts are generally covered?
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Hmm i'm still unsure of a proper answer. The idea of a cleavage is fairly modern, thus I'd think that the verse refers to how people just either bared it all or not at all. Here we have the idea of having a bit of cleavage out which has your breasts covered, but a thin line in the middle still shows.
So yeah... i'm still stuck on an answer / Sure there is the idea of "you can do it as long as your intention isn't sexual" but I don't see this verse as stating you can't beautify yourself otherwise we'd have to cover ourselves completely like our hair and such as anything on a woman can be sexual really and same goes for a man.
Thus rather I think the private parts refers to the fact that it is shameful to have out as well as invitation to sex and the breasts are as well another invitation to sex. So therefore I believe that breasts are to be covered from all except to what is stated there whether it is lust or not. Thus why I wanna know if the cleavage can shown if the breasts are generally covered?
Modesty is individual and cultures vary. Is a mother breast-feeding an infant immodest? hmm
Justiced Stewart once stated (I paraphrase) that he didn't know how do define pornography, but he knew what it was when he saw it. ! If one feels that attire is inappropriate/questionable, it probably is. If one lives in a place where the majority of people dress indecently--then one should move to where they are comfortable! In some parts of the world, going topless is normal. We aren't born with clothes on--are we indecent when born?
If one is comfortable and do not make others uncomfortable, how is that immodest? In some places, covering up draws more attention than not covering up. In others, the climate/weather conditions may be such that covering up is uncomfortable. Does the Deen require hardship? <hypothetical question>
A person who dresses modestly but has immodest behavior is in no way superior to a person who dresses in accordance with their comfort (and the cultural norms of their place and time) and who acts with modesty.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Modesty is individual and cultures vary. Is a mother breast-feeding an infant immodest? hmm
Justiced Stewart once stated (I paraphrase) that he didn't know how do define pornography, but he knew what it was when he saw it. ! If one feels that attire is inappropriate/questionable, it probably is. If one lives in a place where the majority of people dress indecently--then one should move to where they are comfortable! In some parts of the world, going topless is normal. We aren't born with clothes on--are we indecent when born?
If one is comfortable and do not make others uncomfortable, how is that immodest? In some places, covering up draws more attention than not covering up. In others, the climate/weather conditions may be such that covering up is uncomfortable. Does the Deen require hardship? <hypothetical question>
A person who dresses modestly but has immodest behavior is in no way superior to a person who dresses in accordance with their comfort (and the cultural norms of their place and time) and who acts with modesty.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
I see what you mean and it makes a lot of sense. Well here in the west, a bit of cleavage is considered a norm and not considered indecent unless one overdoes it.
Yet there is still the command stating to "cover the breasts" which while they are covered show a some cleavage, which I don't know what it means at that point.
Also can I get some insight on what this part of 2431 means?
""And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage."
While it says to keep private parts covered and that we should not reveal it either, what does it mean by "except what is apparent"? Considering the only two major stuff that are told to be covered are private parts and breasts, how can they be apparent at the same time? I have heard it range from accidentally being shown, to dress to what is a cultural norm?
Thanks
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Salam on you!
Mr. Abdul Hadi, your opinions has nothing to do with the ayas in the Quran, God gave us rules to follow, the aya doesnt say "if you feel uncomfortable the do as you like" Its not a matter of feeling and comparing oneself with others. God dont want you to be hurt, so if you are living in Saudi and not have hijab you will get hurt but living in a secular country who will hurt you if you dont wear a cleavage? Honestly is it really that hard and uncomfortable to stay away from cleavages??
Posted by Abdul-Hadi
it probably is. If one lives in a place where the majority of people dress indecently--then one should move to where they are comfortable! In some parts of the world, going topless is normal. We aren't born with clothes on--are we indecent when born?
If one is comfortable and do not make others uncomfortable, how is that immodest? In some places, covering up draws more attention than not covering up. In others, the climate/weather conditions may be such that covering up is uncomfortable. Does the Deen require hardship?
Posted by Red Eye Girl
I see what you mean and it makes a lot of sense. Well here in the west, a bit of cleavage is considered a norm and not considered indecent unless one overdoes it.
Yet there is still the command stating to "cover the breasts" which while they are covered show a some cleavage, which I don't know what it means at that point.
Red eye girl, so all you wanted to hear is "thats ok because you live in the west"? ??? I didnt know God made a special Quran for the "modern" westerns
By the way JUYUB is not breasts, no one say juyub to breasts in arabic, juyub means actually pockets and since arabic woman used to put stuf in their cleavages so people started to call cleavage juyub as well, and thats nothing modern but it was called so in the time of revelation. What you are doing is choosing to translate it to breasts because that fits your intentions.
If you want to wear cleavage please go on and do it. Your intentions and your choices is something between you and God and nobody cares about them.
But if you want to have a Quranic answer, its good that you are asking people here. I saw many answers from the Quran among the posts here so reflect on them read by yourself and think about the total message of clothing in the Quran. Why are we asked to cover ourselves at all? Reflect about your culture and compare to the culture in the Quran and dont compromise. Cover is not equal to cover some.Peace!
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Salam again,
This post is about showing off.
This is what the dictionary says about showing off
- (verb) exhibitionist, show-off
someone who deliberately behaves in such a way as to attract attention
Synonyms flasher, show-off, exhibitionist
In my opinion the verses talk about the body not about material things.
Ikram, the verses talk about the body and the material things as the word ZEENAH means beauty/decoration and that could be both, but showing of is less likely to be a muslim quality regardless what you are showing off.
Here are the ayas as what I think they mean.I would be glad to discuss it if anybody have another opinion.
Its about Qaroon 2876- 2879.2876
That Qaroon/Korah was from Moses' nation, so he oppressed/transgressed on them, and We gave/brought him from the treasures what that its keys (is a) burdensome weight with (for) the group/band/company of strength/power , when his nation said to him "Do not rejoice/delight , that God does not love/like the rejoiced/delighted ."
The shadowed text is to help see how the Arabic text is translated in case you want to check it by yourself.
So God gave Qaroon a big material wealth. And Qaroon was very happy with that as many people would be, considering the material goals of our culture today and also what God is saying about humankind (greedy). But God dont love/like the rejoiced/delighted ones it says! Why God dont like the rejoiced/delighted ones?
I think rejoiced or delighted in the Quran means not thankful, and God want us to remember always where our material wealth and immaterial wealth coming from, from Him. If we remember that our reaction would then be humbleness rather than joy and delightfulness. Humbleness means being aware of what I get from God is not mine, but its something God decided to give me now and maybe take it away when he wishes to, this thinking will make me less greedy, less stingy and eliminate the owner inside me. This was the opposite in Qaroons case.2877
And wish/desire in what God gave you, the home/house (of) the end (other life), and do not forget your share/fortune in the present world, and do good deeds (give charity) as/like God did good to you, and do not wish/desire the corruption in the land/Planet Earth, that God does not love/like the corrupting/disordering .
God gave Qaroon a huge material wealth and God knows thats powerful in the worldly life so first he is reminding Qaroon about his intentions and what his goal with this wealth should be. God is simply telling him with this wealth I gave you strive to come closer to me by thinking about the hereafter. After that God tells him how to do it. God is ordering Qaroon to do good as God did to him. What did God do for Qaroon? God gave him alot and also he reminded him about the hereafter so God is asking him to give alot from that wealth and remind people about the hereafter, but! God knows we need material things so He is telling Qaroon not to forget his share. I think his share means what he needs. In my opinion a Ferrari is not a need, a Dior dress is not a need, those are like Qaroons wealth.
2878
He said "But/truly I got it on knowledge at me/from me." Did he not know that God had perished/destroyed from before him from the generations/peoples of eras who he is stronger than him power/strength and more gathering/assembling? And the criminals/sinners do not be asked/questioned about their crimes.
But Qaroon is arrogant and not thankful or humble at all. He thinks the knowledge was his own maybe he thinks he was smart, clever, sneaky enough to make the fortune he had. His arrogance made him rejects or forget that God is the one who gives and if God didint want to give him then he wouldent have any chance of getting a coin.
2879
So he got out/emerged on (to) his nation in his decoration/beauty/ornament, those who want the life the present/worldly life said "Oh, if only for us similar/equal (to) what Qaroon/Korah was given/brought to, that he truly is of great luck/fortune."
Why did Qaroon went out in his decorations/beauty to his nation? My answer is to show off, being the arrogant human he was. He didint believe that all he got was a gift from God which he had to share with others. He simply wanted to show to people how great he was making such a fortune, he was barging by showing himself and his decoration/beauty (ZEENAH). And that made people jealous, they wished they had the beauty of material things he had.
Then we all know what happened to this human...
My conclusion
Considering 732
" Say "Who forbid God's decoration/beauty/ornament (َwhich He brought out to (for) His worshippers/slaves, and the enjoyable/goodnesses from the provision/things of benefit or value ?"Say "It is to those who believed in the life the present/worldly life clearly/purely (in) the Resurrection Day, as/like that We detail/explain/clarify the verses/evidences to a nation knowing."and 731
" You Adam's sons and daughters, take/receive your decoration/beauty (ْat every/each mosque/place of worshipping God, and eat and drink and do not waste/spoil/ignore , that God does not love/like the wasters ."ZEENA (beauty/decoration) is not haram. God made it for us to enjoy but with measure, without transcending Gods lines. God gave us the example of Qaroon to explain to us what transcending is. Qaroon was arrogant and thought he got it all by himself so that made people jealous. He also liked to show off what he had as a measure of self-expression/self-realisation. God is telling us to enjoy everything but do that with humbleness and with measure, dont show off, remember that its from God and it can be taken back anytime.
When it comes to womens beauty/decoration regardless body or clothes we all know whats beautiful in it. God says in 2431" And say to the believers they (F) lower/humble from their eye sights, and they (F) protect/safe keep from their genital parts between their legs, and they do not show their decoration/beauty (َ except what appeared/is visible from it, and they hold in place/sew (E) with their covers on their collar opening in clothes/chests , and they do not show their decoration/beauty (َ except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers (fathers in-law), or their sons, or their husband's sons (step- sons), or their brothers, or their brother's sons (nephews), or their sisters' sons (nephews), or their women, or what their right (hands) owned/possessed (i.e. care-giers under contract), or the followers/servants (those) not (owners) of need/desire/intelligence and resourcefulness (without a sexual drive) from the men or the child/children (the very old or very young), those who did not see and know of on the women's shameful genital parts , and they (F) do not beat/strike with their (F) feet to be known what they (F) hide from their decoration/beauty , and repent to God all together , oh you the believers, maybe/perhaps you succeed/win."
Regardless the discussable parts of this aya I think the red marked part of it is pretty clear.Hope this made my point on beautiful things clear. You are welcome to discuss my understanding of the ayas.
Peace! - (verb) exhibitionist, show-off
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Salam on you!
Mr. Abdul Hadi, your opinions has nothing to do with the ayas in the Quran, God gave us rules to follow, the aya doesnt say "if you feel uncomfortable the do as you like" Its not a matter of feeling and comparing oneself with others. God dont want you to be hurt, so if you are living in Saudi and not have hijab you will get hurt but living in a secular country who will hurt you if you dont wear a cleavage? Honestly is it really that hard and uncomfortable to stay away from cleavages??
Red eye girl, so all you wanted to hear is "thats ok because you live in the west"? ??? I didnt know God made a special Quran for the "modern" westerns o
By the way JUYUB is not breasts, no one say juyub to breasts in arabic, juyub means actually pockets and since arabic woman used to put stuf in their cleavages so people started to call cleavage juyub as well, and thats nothing modern but it was called so in the time of revelation. What you are doing is choosing to translate it to breasts because that fits your intentions.
If you want to wear cleavage please go on and do it. Your intentions and your choices is something between you and God and nobody cares about them.
But if you want to have a Quranic answer, its good that you are asking people here. I saw many answers from the Quran among the posts here so reflect on them read by yourself and think about the total message of clothing in the Quran. Why are we asked to cover ourselves at all? Reflect about your culture and compare to the culture in the Quran and dont compromise. Cover is not equal to cover some.Peace!
I wanted to answer to AbdulHadi and to RedEyeGirl but I found my thoughts resumed in Ala's answer...all I have to say is Nothing to add !
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I am Quran-Aloner, but 2431 made me wonder a bit about cleavages.
"And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed."
In regards to cleavage I understand not exposing all of your breast but is something like this okay
http//www.hairstyleswebsite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/women-hairstyles3.jpgLike you see a little bit of cleavage on her, but her breasts are covered more or less. It feels like a grey area here, if you can give me your opinions?
Salaam sister,
Please note to who this verse is referring. The verse begins with And tell the believing females...
So do you think of yourself that you belong to this group of women?
If not then you can do whatever you want.But if you believe that Allah is talking about you then I don't see any grey area.
You translated the verse as "... shawls over their cleavage ..."
then you say "Like you see a little bit of cleavage on her, but her breasts are covered more or less."
So to me if only 0,00...001% of cleavage is shown then you did not put your shawl on the correct way over your cleavage.also note that this verse is for all believing females. Thus not only females in some cultures or in some time-era.
AND as responding to Abdul-Hadi this verse is also for believing mothers who want to give their child breastfeeding (as they are also believing females). Breastfeeding in public nope no matter what culture or time you live. -
Greetings and Peace, all group
To each their own.
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.
Which is better, knowledge and logic--or emotion and tradition?
726 O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to alleviate your bodies, and feathers; and the garment of righteousness is the best. That is from the signs of GOD, perhaps they will remember.
What is the best garment? sun
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
Are/should people be forced to follow the understanding of another? hmm
3114 And We enjoined man regarding his parents. His mother bore him with hardship upon hardship, and his weaning takes two years. You shall give thanks to Me, and to your parents. To Me is the final destiny.
Two years to wean is substantial time. Should a woman let her child go hungry if in public--or just stay at home all the time if breast feeding in public is "forbidden"? Just how long has baby formula been available, anyway?
http//www.greenprophet.com/2010/06/breastfeed-your-baby-in-a-hijab-public-breastfeeding-in-the-middle-east/
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.
3022 And from His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your tongues and your colors. In that are signs for the world.
It sure sounds like different culture is accepted and well known--we don't have to look/act/be the same. Nudity is the norm in some cultures, but a person doesn't have to join that culture/can leave it.
If doubt exists, there is no doubt--it is better not to do a thing where there is doubt involved. Don't eat a food item if the safety is dubious and likewise don't dress in a certain way if the dress is questionable.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Salam Abdul-Hadi,
Which is better, knowledge and logic--or emotion and tradition?
I dont know who is talking emotions and traditions here, I havent seen that. I think emotion and traditions is when you say "its ok if you are uncomfortable and if its ok in your culture".
726 O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to alleviate your bodies, and feathers; and the garment of righteousness is the best. That is from the signs of GOD, perhaps they will remember.
What is the best garment? sun
I anderstand this aya as it doesnt matter if you wear feathres or sack, beautifull or ugly clothes, it doesnt matter for God , but The God is actually telling us how to cloth, not what to cloth in 2431.
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
Are/should people be forced to follow the understanding of another? hmm
"Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD" that for me means reject evilish things like popular culture and trying to be like others, or show the beauty in wrong place and time. And believing in God is doing as told by God, regardless culture.
3114 And We enjoined man regarding his parents. His mother bore him with hardship upon hardship, and his weaning takes two years. You shall give thanks to Me, and to your parents. To Me is the final destiny.
Two years to wean is substantial time. Should a woman let her child go hungry if in public--or just stay at home all the time if breast feeding in public is "forbidden"? Just how long has baby formula been available, anyway?
Why should the baby go hungry, is there no middleway? either show breasts and feed or not feed? why not put something on her brest while feeding? (I dont have children I dont know, just wondering)
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.
What people tryed to say here is only Gods ayas, showing them and insisting on not compromising with them. Actually I think its more dangerous to give the green light to do something God has allready told us not to do, just because you are not sure. Maybe better not to say anything?
What do you think cover your cleavages means?don't dress in a certain way if the dress is questionable.
I think that was supposed to be your answer from the begening. If cleavage is questionable and you are not sure, then simply dont do it.
ALLAH knows best.
Peace on you! -
Greetings and Peace, all group
To each their own.
Salaam Abdul-Hadi,
I guess this was a response to my post.1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.
Which is better, knowledge and logic--or emotion and tradition?
I don?t exactly understand why you brought up this verse. This verse is talking about things we have NO knowledge of. But we have knowledge on what parts a believing female has to cover.
726 O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to alleviate your bodies, and feathers; and the garment of righteousness is the best. That is from the signs of GOD, perhaps they will remember.
What is the best garment? sun
Do you think the red part cancels out the blue part of the verse? I don't think so, please note the AND between those 2 parts.
Also note in which way the second garment is used.2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
Are/should people be forced to follow the understanding of another? hmm
Sure bro no compulsion, totally agree. But you forget to highlight the second part of the verse, which is equally important (the red part).
I believe the proper way for believing women is clarified in 2431.3114 And We enjoined man regarding his parents. His mother bore him with hardship upon hardship, and his weaning takes two years. You shall give thanks to Me, and to your parents. To Me is the final destiny.
Two years to wean is substantial time. Should a woman let her child go hungry if in public--or just stay at home all the time if breast feeding in public is "forbidden"? Just how long has baby formula been available, anyway?
http//www.greenprophet.com/2010/06/breastfeed-your-baby-in-a-hijab-public-breastfeeding-in-the-middle-east/
You are making things very dramatic bro
Maybe I had to be clearer in my post. I meant breastfeeding in such a way that the woman?s breast can be seen. To my understanding if she covers her cleavage and she gives her child breastfeeding then of course that?s totally ok, as she still obeys the command of covering her cleavage. But with a naked breast, as some women do, that is I believe not correct. Sorry for not being clear.16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.
If I invented a lie about Allah, then I did it because of my poor understanding. InshaAllah Allah will forgive me for that pr
To my understanding, everyone has to read the verse and take the best possible meaning of it not the easiest possible meaning. And of course I gave only my understanding, every woman has to verify for herself what she think is best. I am not a lawmaker , I just gave my opinion to my current understanding.
3022 And from His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your tongues and your colors. In that are signs for the world.
It sure sounds like different culture is accepted and well known--we don't have to look/act/be the same. Nudity is the norm in some cultures, but a person doesn't have to join that culture/can leave it.
No idea, what this has to do with the subject.
but of course there are different cultures, BUT there is only 1 correct deen (as far as I know).If doubt exists, there is no doubt--it is better not to do a thing where there is doubt involved. Don't eat a food item if the safety is dubious and likewise don't dress in a certain way if the dress is questionable.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
I agree, I believe we always have to take the best way in case we are not sure about somethings.
Salaam and may Allah increase is in knowledge,
Bender -
I anderstand this aya as it doesnt matter if you wear feathres or sack, beautifull or ugly clothes, it doesnt matter for God , but The God is actually telling us how to cloth, not what to cloth in 2431.
Salaam Ala,
Thank you, I didn't noticed that, every day I am learning alhamdulillah a little bit more
ps. I really liked your post about Qaroon
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Peace all,
I think on the subject of breastfeeding, we have to be careful in considering it as the same kind of "exposure" as inappropriate dress. As a father of three kids who all have breastfed, I can tell you from experience that 1) some kids will not nurse with something over their head, which is necessary to completely cover the breast, and 2) when a child is done nursing, he will unlatch without warning, which will momentarily leave the entire breast exposed.
That being said, anyone who considers this kind of exposure to be the same as a woman intentionally dressing lewdly has issues with the female form. They need to avert the eye because the problem is with them, not the woman. If I caught some guy leering at my wife while she was nursing, I'd punch him because she isn't exposing herself for any other reason than my son needs to eat. His staring is an unwelcome invasion of her person. If we were out at a restaurant and someone were to tell my wife to cover up or go to the car or the restroom, I'd take the plate off of their table and take it to the restroom. If my kid has to eat in the bathroom, then so do they.
In other words, when applying this verse we need to use some God-given common sense and realize that nursing moms are not exposing themselves because they want to. They have a hungry child who needs milk immediately. Similarly, when infants become sick or injured, they want to nurse because it is the only coping mechanism that they have for pain and stress. The fact that the Quran, out of all of the writings of monotheistic religions, is the ONLY text that explicitly protects a mother's right to nurse, should weigh heavily in understanding this passage.
Peace,
Joel -
As a mother that has exclusively breastfed 2 children for 2 years each, I know that the breast will be shown at some point in public. Some babies will not breastfeed with a cover on them (they aren't embarassed about what they are doing!). They will kick the cover off, pull the cover off, or latch off at any given moment and thrust themselves away from you. I know there is nothing wrong with this.
I have sometimes seen the above ayah translated as "keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is NECESSARY". This translation really resonated with me in regards to breastfeeding.
Also about the cleavage, you are going to have to determine what is right for you. This, like so many other things in the Quran, is not black and white. A woman's clothing is such a personal issue. Only you know your situation, intentions, comfort and all the other factors that will decide the best garment for you.
Let's leave arguing over the ONE female dress code to the Sunnis and Shias. They really excel in that area.
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Ala,
The verse is not talking about material things it s talking specific about the beauty of a woman s body even if it can mean both like you said, this time it doesn't.
What I like about quran is that it's reasonable and that one has to use his logic.
Nowhere did I say it s ok to brag about your possesions especially like in the man in the story in the hope to make people feel less.
I quote you''He also liked to show off what he had as a measure of self-expression/self-realisation'' I have to say that the fault he made is bragging, not self expressing because there is nothing wrong with self expressing, people are free to show their culture and taste wich is part of their identity. Like I said earlier I don t support this kind of mindset because to me it s dangerous.Also who decides what is zeenah/beauty and what is not? People differ in taste. what s beautiful in your eyes could be hideous in mine.
I'm going to qoute verse 2431 and show you the way I see it but I think the verse speaks for it self to be honest. I'm also over this topic because I caught myself in repeating how I think about it and it feels tiring so if it's any use to you that would be nice but if it's not that would be fine either.
to each their own offcourse.2431
And tell the believing women to reduce of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment/ZEENATUHUM except that which appears thereof and to wrap their covers over their chests and not expose their adornment/ZEENATHUNA except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment/ZEENATIHIM.
And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.If you look at the verse it says to not expose their beauty exept wich is necessarily and that they should cover their chest so they don t expose their beauty and than the following of people where this is not necessary.
Like you see that includes males who don t have physical desire and children who are not aware of the private aspects. So it s about not making someone sexually desire you, a male won t be sexually desired because your dress has such a nice tone of green.
and the verse ends with not stamping your feet because that can make your beauty shown, wich doesn t matter how you put your feet if it s about your clothing because that is being showed anyways.Hope it s clear now.
Peace