What are the rights of non-muslims?
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Dear Maha;
You may not have visited my YT in a while.
I am not a Muslim, and have not been for a while.
Thus 2225 does not actually matter to me whether it is Mecca or not. Perhaps you should ask the other person why they asked about Mecca and Medinam rather than directing your queston at me.
As for religion and deen, my statement was that the religion had a deen, thus I never argued that they were the same.
Please explain why accepting a traditional understanding (such as "Mecca" as many "Quranists" do) makes one even part "sunni". It is considered un-Qur'anic to use the term "Quranist".
I am interested in the logic which motivated your post.
@ Jafar
Divinity is relating to a creator God whereby you feel that SPECIFIC practice (deen, including what I mentioned) will give you benefit (religion).
You will have to answer my post before asking questions, since it provides the rationale.
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Dear Maha;
You may not have visited my YT in a while.
I am not a Muslim, and have not been for a while.
Thus 2225 does not actually matter to me whether it is Mecca or not. Perhaps you should ask the other person why they asked about Mecca and Medinam rather than directing your queston at me.
As for religion and deen, my statement was that the religion had a deen, thus I never argued that they were the same.
Please explain why accepting a traditional understanding (such as "Mecca" as many "Quranists" do) makes one even part "sunni". It is considered un-Qur'anic to use the term "Quranist".
I am interested in the logic which motivated your post.
@ Jafar
Divinity is relating to a creator God whereby you feel that SPECIFIC practice (deen, including what I mentioned) will give you benefit (religion).
You will have to answer my post before asking questions, since it provides the rationale.
so i ask you again dear mesmorial, why you think you should teach others about a religion you dont believe in?
The other person did not asked for the quranic verse which you wrongfully presented to him. He just asked if non-muslims are allowed in mekka, which is an another question. Your ideas and talks are so flawed and confusing that its very hard to take you serious.
Secondly, there are religions without deen. Look at some eastern religions for evidence. And your defination of the word ''religion'' as something giving a benefit, is also flawed. And last but not least, not all religions requires a specific practice, neither does deen means a specific practice.
Peace
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I would like to understand the rights of non-muslims in order to determine whether or not Islam truly teaches that all people are equal. If non-believers are not allowed into Makkah, or cannot be greeted with Salaam alaykum, or deserve the same justice that would apply if a believer was murdered, then Islam does not teach equality.
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I would like to understand the rights of non-muslims in order to determine whether or not Islam truly teaches that all people are equal. If non-believers are not allowed into Makkah, or cannot be greeted with Salaam alaykum, or deserve the same justice that would apply if a believer was murdered, then Islam does not teach equality.
Shalom Aleikhem,
I can only answer the questions according to my understanding. I will try to answer them one by one with references. Let us begin
whether or not Islam truly teaches that all people are equal
No. All are not equal. But it depends on what you mean by the question. Let me explain myself, why all are not equal.
987 As for those who believe and do good works, they are the best of creation
I do not recognize a rapist and a Saint to be equal. Neither are the blind and the seer the same. For the sake of practicality, all are not equal. There are good people and bad people. By the way, this has nothing to do with "how to treat innocent people".
Entering Mekkah
I dont know about Mekkah. But, as far as I understood, the restricted mosque there should not be trespassed by non-believers (92.
The restricted mosque is not a tourist spot. If I do not like your presence in my home or my room, this does not mean that I believe in inequality and injustice or discrimination. It is called Privacy. Any group should have the right to privacy provided that they are not harming others.
Greeting with PEACE
This is encouraged by the author of Qur'an (2427,1010,494,486).
486 And if you are greeted with a greeting, then return an even better greeting or return the same. God is Reckoning over all things
This tells me to be nice or nicer when "anyone" greets me with peace. Would you greet me with Peace ? I would have to apply the system taught in that verse. So, in the context of "greeting" and thats even with "peace", your question only makes sense if I "ignore" Qur'an and follow my desire and dont greet you with peace even when you come in peace.
Justice
1733 And do not take a life, for God has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed innocently, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory.
532 It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel "Anyone who kills a person for other than murder, or corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarities, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the earth.
So, the way I understood it, these teachings are for all. "Anyone"/"Whoever" . By saying that it was "murder" that you wanted to use as an example, you made me use these verses. I think you would agree with me that the author of Qur'an didnt say that when a muslim murders an innocent non-believer, the rule is different. Whoever sheds blood of innocent is bad according to the author.
If you do have time, go through the book (Qur'an). You can solve these issues yourself.
Peace
---------------- Student of Allah -
I would like to understand the rights of non-muslims in order to determine whether or not Islam truly teaches that all people are equal. If non-believers are not allowed into Makkah, or cannot be greeted with Salaam alaykum, or deserve the same justice that would apply if a believer was murdered, then Islam does not teach equality.
I fully agree with you. But islam is not a religion, hence being a muslim has nothing to do with what religion or sect you belong to.
Peace
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No. All are not equal. But it depends on what you mean by the question. Let me explain myself, why all are not equal.
987 As for those who believe and do good works, they are the best of creation
I do not recognize a rapist and a Saint to be equal. Neither are the blind and the seer the same. For the sake of practicality, all are not equal. There are good people and bad people. By the way, this has nothing to do with "how to treat innocent people".
A criminal is not equal with a obedient citizen.
But good explanation. Who are non-muslims by the way? is it people who are not quranist or people who do not consider themselves beloning to a muslim sect like sunnism, shiitism and so on?
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Maha;
so i ask you again dear mesmorial, why you think you should teach others about a religion you dont believe in?
Please do not lie to me by implying you ever asked that question before. Your last post thought I was Muslim.
The other person did not asked for the quranic verse which you wrongfully presented to him. He just asked if non-muslims are allowed in mekka, which is an another question.
It is normal and reasonable to assume that if the person thought Mecca was not the place, they would not be asking official rulings not in the Qur?an. However, since they felt there was a divine commandment relating to non-Muslims going to Mecca, they thought that Mecca had the qiblah.
Your ideas and talks are so flawed and confusing that its very hard to take you serious.
The same for you, except you are clearly lying and making things up. That is not Islamic.
Secondly, there are religions without deen. Look at some eastern religions for evidence.
That is not what we are talking about.
But nothing is more beneficial than avoiding Hell, yes?
And last but not least, not all religions requires a specific practice, neither does deen means a specific practice.
But the deen as sanctioned by the Qur?an does.
Peace
You did no answer my question. Please stop acting like that.
Cheers.
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mesmemorial
Please do not lie to me by implying you ever asked that question before. Your last post thought I was Muslim
So because you cannot answer my question you begin to accuse me of lying? Lol good try, but now answer my question instead of changing the topic. Why do you preach a religion for others in which you yourself dont believe in ? Why do you LIE to peope? Sometimes you are a muslim and sometimes you are not a muslim.. what do you lie to people mesmorial?
It is normal and reasonable to assume that if the person thought Mecca was not the place, they would not be asking official rulings not in the Qur?an. However, since they felt there was a divine commandment relating to non-Muslims going to Mecca, they thought that Mecca had the qiblah.
it doesnt matter what they thought or what they assumed. On What basis do YOU preach that the sacred mosque is in MEKKA?
The same for you, except you are clearly lying and making things up. That is not Islamic
You are such a hopeless imbecile , mesmorial. Remember that.
But nothing is more beneficial than avoiding Hell, yes?
why do you change the topic. The defination of religion is not 'being beneficial' . look at a Dictionary
But the deen as sanctioned by the Qur?an does.
please stop lying about quran, its a book you clearly know NOTHING about. Now I ask you again, on what basis do you claim that deen means religion ?
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Dear Maha;
I have only known you from a few posts, yet I?ve learnt more about you than you appear to have during your time of studying me. So here is my experience with you
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I had never known you before yesterday, yet you accuse me of acting like a Sunni-Qur?anist. It does not matter whether you thought I was Muslim or not (certainly wasn?t Sunni or ?Qur?anist?), but the point is that you must explain why people like Edip Yuksel and Ahmed Bahgat who follow a qiblah in Mecca are not likewise Sunni-Qur?anists? You did not answer my point relating to that.
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Secondly, you deliberately twisted my words by implying I had to prove ?religion? and ?deen? were the same when I had already clearly said that they were different.
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Thirdly, you lie to my face by implying you ALREADY asked me why I am teaching a religion that I don?t believe in (so why did you use the word ?religion??).
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Fourthly, you say my logic is flawed and that I cannot be taken seriously, meantime having answered none of my points whilst making things up. You seem to have a hidden agenda, and you label me a hopeless imbecile.
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Fifthly, during this time you adopted a spiteful and targeted approach (with me). Now you accuse me of lying.
I do not know you, so if you have a problem with me, rather than targeting me here, come onto my YouTube. I do not know if you think the others will help you here because you call yourself ?Qur?anist? (whilst I say I am not Muslim), but I?m almost used to this. If I want to talk to such people, I would normally go to SunniForum or Faithfreedom.org. But I am not going to leave here just because you want me to. You should perhaps have ?researched? me more before trying this.
If you are too embarassed to explain yourself here, just remember my offer.
Cheers.
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Dear Maha;
I have only known you from a few posts, yet I?ve learnt more about you than you appear to have during your time of studying me. So here is my experience with you
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I had never known you before yesterday, yet you accuse me of acting like a Sunni-Qur?anist. It does not matter whether you thought I was Muslim or not (certainly wasn?t Sunni or ?Qur?anist?), but the point is that you must explain why people like Edip Yuksel and Ahmed Bahgat who follow a qiblah in Mecca are not likewise Sunni-Qur?anists? You did not answer my point relating to that.
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Secondly, you deliberately twisted my words by implying I had to prove ?religion? and ?deen? were the same when I had already clearly said that they were different.
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Thirdly, you lie to my face by implying you ALREADY asked me why I am teaching a religion that I don?t believe in (so why did you use the word ?religion??).
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Fourthly, you say my logic is flawed and that I cannot be taken seriously, meantime having answered none of my points whilst making things up. You seem to have a hidden agenda, and you label me a hopeless imbecile.
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Fifthly, during this time you adopted a spiteful and targeted approach (with me). Now you accuse me of lying.
I do not know you, so if you have a problem with me, rather than targeting me here, come onto my YouTube. I do not know if you think the others will help you here because you call yourself ?Qur?anist? (whilst I say I am not Muslim), but I?m almost used to this. If I want to talk to such people, I would normally go to SunniForum or Faithfreedom.org. But I am not going to leave here just because you want me to. You should perhaps have ?researched? me more before trying this.
If you are too embarassed to explain yourself here, just remember my offer.
Cheers.
?why dont you just answer my questions? Whenever I caught you in lying you immediately change the topic with a nasty attitude, why? The biggest proof of you being a hopeless imbecile is that you preach a religion you dont believe in and you refuse to tell me why you do that. Why do you say things you dont believe in? In any case, thanks for showing me your true ugly face, mesmorial.
And your youtube channel is full of BS so please keep it to yourself.Bye
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Shalom Aleikhem,
@ Maha and MesMorial
Can we end the dispute here ???? This thread has been hijacked already !! I do realize that both of you have good reasons for coming back and explaining things...however, for the sake of the rest of the community, it is better that either you stop it, or simply continue your dispute in some other place. For example, you guys can send PMs to each other. How about that ??? In your Private Message folder, you guys can host your eternal debate .
Peace
--------------- Student of Allah
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Shalom Aleikhem,
@ Maha and MesMorial
Can we end the dispute here ???? This thread has been hijacked already !! I do realize that both of you have good reasons for coming back and explaining things...however, for the sake of the rest of the community, it is better that either you stop it, or simply continue your dispute in some other place. For example, you guys can send PMs to each other. How about that ??? In your Private Message folder, you guys can host your eternal debate . )
Peace
--------------- Student of Allah
salam. I already said bye to him before your post and ended the conversation with him. I have no interest in debating the dispute with him any further. However I asked you about your defination of a non-muslim and I am waiting to read your reply.
Cheers
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salam. I already said bye to him before your post and ended the conversation with him. I have no interest in debating the dispute with him any further. However I asked you about your defination of a non-muslim and I am waiting to read your reply.
Cheers
Shalom Aleikhom,
I will copy paste a response that I gave to someone on this website. The subject was similar, see if you can understand my view from it
Shalom Aleikhom,
It is not my job to go around calling people muslim or non-muslim. I can only perceive people as muslim/non-muslim based on my understanding of what Islam is. Now, since there is no guarantee that my overall understanding is 100% correct, it would be unfair of me to label others as such.
Can an atheist be muslim ?
Well, on a philosophical level , see if you agree with me on this. You agree that God sent messengers, at the present, its our duty to spread the message instead of concealing it, right ? Now, when the nice athiest approaches Islam, he/she is immediately bombarded with bizzare ideas. He/She like you and me takes objection to statements such as "having beard is righteous", "you have to wipe butt with odd number of stones to be loved by God", "if you leave Islam you have to be beheaded", etc.
So, what they reject of God is not Islam, but the man made fabrication. The sheikhs/imams/mullahs/scholars conceal Qur'an from both muslims and non-muslims. Not everyone has the same life experience, so the atheist might have been in a disadvantage compared to you and me. Think about the illiterate hungry and poor people in third world countries. The mullahs/sheiks conceal what was revealed and make these less fortunate people do bad things. These people are not doing what they do to reject Allah, but to please Him. So, we should not jump to conclusion over such matters.
The enemy here is not the masses, but the Pharaohs that conceal the revelation and enslave the masses. If your idea is that everyone has the means to read Qur'an, I would ask you to wake up. In that case these concealers would not be able to succeed with their lies.
Peace
------------ Student of Allah -
Dear Maha;
Perhaps you misread my message.
I pointed out 5 things you did which you have not denied. You trait is to project your own faults onto me.
In my experience, Sunnis answer questions with more questions. Islamophobes answer questions by telling you to answer questions which they asked after you asked them questions they never answered. The difference is that Sunnis tend to run, and Islamophobes just argue.
The reason that Sunnis say they believe in Sunnism is because it gives them identity. When you counter them, there is no point in them arguing since their identity is deflated. They don?t want to cause it more damage (like wearing a good shirt during exercise).
http//www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?79213-Why-do-you-believe-in-hadith/page59&s=8049f999ac73edf2af43ff699516cdde
It is not about personal ego, though of course there are some (currently one on YT) who start dreaming aloud about one burning in Hell.
The reason that Islamophobes continue is either because they are in a forum friendly to their views, or because they are insecure and keep going until they win a point. They feel that they ?must be right?, whereas Sunnis say to themselves ?how I wish I was right! Come on!?
You will find here 4 threads with my name, all designed to catch me out
http//forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewforum.php?f=22
And another
http//forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewforum.php?f=21
There are 6 threads here which concern ?MesMorial?s? debates
http//forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewforum.php?f=23
The top one is typical of how Islamophobes will not stop until they catch you out on a point, no matter how many they already tried.
Of course the reason I mention is that you have the nastiness of certain Sunnis, with the behaviour of the other. Neither uses logic, and it is a sign of emotional attachment to something. I would like to know which emotional attachment inspires your posts, and I basically asked this at the end of my first post (to you).
The other reason I mention is to show you something more about my activities, with hopes you will not continue to talk without knowledge. You thought I was Sunni-Qur?anist, then (still) a liar ? what?s next? That is the point.
Let?s see
You tell me that I am nasty when you catch me lying, but maybe you were reading it with a mirror.
You inform me I preach a religion (you used that word again) which I do not believe. Unfortunately we were discussing a matter of history, therefore if as a Muslim I tended towards a certain historical opinion, there is no reason why I would not hold that position now.
Finally, my YouTube is basically poetry, Islamic reform and philosophy. Could you please be more specific?
My final question would be why you preach a religion you don?t practice.
Cheers.
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Dear Maha;
Dear Maha;
Perhaps you misread my message.
I pointed out 5 things you did which you have not denied. In my experience, Sunnis answer questions with more questions. Islamophobes answer questions by telling you to answer questions which they asked after you asked them questions they never answered. The difference is that Sunnis tend to run, and Islamophobes just argue.
The reason that Sunnis say they believe in Sunnism is because it gives them identity. When you counter them, there is no point in them arguing since their identity is deflated. They don?t want to cause it more damage (like wearing a good shirt during exercise).
http//www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?79213-Why-do-you-believe-in-hadith/page59&s=8049f999ac73edf2af43ff699516cdde
It is not about personal ego, though of course there are some (currently one on YT) who start dreaming aloud about me burning in Hell.
The reason that Islamophobes continue is either because they are in a forum friendly to their views, or because they are insecure and keep going until they win a point. They feel that they ?must be right?, whereas Sunnis say to themselves ?how I wish I was right! Come on!?
You will find here 4 threads with my name, all designed to catch me out
http//forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewforum.php?f=22
And another
http//forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewforum.php?f=21
There are 6 threads here which concern ?MesMorial?s? debates
http//forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewforum.php?f=23
The top one is typical of how Islamophobes will not stop until they catch you out on a point, no matter how many they already tried.
Of course the reason I mention is that you have the nastiness of certain Sunnis, with the behaviour of the other. Neither uses logic, and it is a sign of emotional attachment to something. I would like to know which emotional attachment inspires your posts, and I basically asked this at the end of my first post (to you).
The other reason I mention is to show you something more about my activities, with hopes you will not continue to talk without knowledge. You thought I was Sunni-Qur?anist, then (still) a liar ? what?s next? That is the point.
Let?s see
You tell me that I am nasty when you catch me lying, but maybe you were reading it with a mirror.
You inform me I preach a religion (you used that word again) which I do not believe. Unfortunately we are discussing a matter of history, therefore if as a Muslim I tended towards a certain historical opinion, there is no reason why I would not hold that position now.
Finally, my YouTube is mostly poetry, Islamic reform and philosophy which certainly isn?t Sunni (probably more ?Qur?anist?). Could you please be more specific?
My final question would be why you preach a religion you don?t practice.
Cheers.
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Dear Maha;
Perhaps you misread my message.
I pointed out 5 things you did which you have not denied. You trait is to project your own faults onto me.
In my experience, Sunnis answer questions with more questions. Islamophobes answer questions by telling you to answer questions which they asked after you asked them questions they never answered. The difference is that Sunnis tend to run, and Islamophobes just argue.
The reason that Sunnis say they believe in Sunnism is because it gives them identity. When you counter them, there is no point in them arguing since their identity is deflated. They don?t want to cause it more damage (like wearing a good shirt during exercise).
http//www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?79213-Why-do-you-believe-in-hadith/page59&s=8049f999ac73edf2af43ff699516cdde
It is not about personal ego, though of course there are some (currently one on YT) who start dreaming aloud about one burning in Hell.
The reason that Islamophobes continue is either because they are in a forum friendly to their views, or because they are insecure and keep going until they win a point. They feel that they ?must be right?, whereas Sunnis say to themselves ?how I wish I was right! Come on!?
You will find here 4 threads with my name, all designed to catch me out
http//forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewforum.php?f=22
And another
http//forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewforum.php?f=21
There are 6 threads here which concern ?MesMorial?s? debates
http//forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewforum.php?f=23
The top one is typical of how Islamophobes will not stop until they catch you out on a point, no matter how many they already tried.
Of course the reason I mention is that you have the nastiness of certain Sunnis, with the behaviour of the other. Neither uses logic, and it is a sign of emotional attachment to something. I would like to know which emotional attachment inspires your posts, and I basically asked this at the end of my first post (to you).
The other reason I mention is to show you something more about my activities, with hopes you will not continue to talk without knowledge. You thought I was Sunni-Qur?anist, then (still) a liar ? what?s next? That is the point.
Let?s see
You tell me that I am nasty when you catch me lying, but maybe you were reading it with a mirror.
You inform me I preach a religion (you used that word again) which I do not believe. Unfortunately we were discussing a matter of history, therefore if as a Muslim I tended towards a certain historical opinion, there is no reason why I would not hold that position now.
Finally, my YouTube is basically poetry, Islamic reform and philosophy. Could you please be more specific?
My final question would be why you preach a religion you don?t practice.
Cheers.
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I would like to understand the rights of non-muslims in order to determine whether or not Islam truly teaches that all people are equal. If non-believers are not allowed into Makkah, or cannot be greeted with Salaam alaykum, or deserve the same justice that would apply if a believer was murdered, then Islam does not teach equality.
Yup the religion called Islam (tm) does not teach equality..
However God teaches equality in the Quran... everyone will be fairly judged according to their deeds..
Salam / Peace
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Shalom Aleikhem,
@ Maha and MesMorial
Can we end the dispute here ???? This thread has been hijacked already !! I do realize that both of you have good reasons for coming back and explaining things...however, for the sake of the rest of the community, it is better that either you stop it, or simply continue your dispute in some other place. For example, you guys can send PMs to each other. How about that ??? In your Private Message folder, you guys can host your eternal debate . )
Peace
--------------- Student of Allah
That would be wonderful (since I asked that), however my last post contained some links which may be of more benefit.
In the meantime, you might observe how it sprung from my otherwise relevant point about 2225.
Cheers
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Dear Maha;
Perhaps you misread my message.
I pointed out 5 things you did which you have not denied. You trait is to project your own faults onto me.
In my experience, Sunnis answer questions with more questions. Islamophobes answer questions by telling you to answer questions which they asked after you asked them questions they never answered. The difference is that Sunnis tend to run, and Islamophobes just argue.
The reason that Sunnis say they believe in Sunnism is because it gives them identity. When you counter them, there is no point in them arguing since their identity is deflated. They don?t want to cause it more damage (like wearing a good shirt during exercise).
http//www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?79213-Why-do-you-believe-in-hadith/page59&s=8049f999ac73edf2af43ff699516cdde
It is not about personal ego, though of course there are some (currently one on YT) who start dreaming aloud about one burning in Hell.
The reason that Islamophobes continue is either because they are in a forum friendly to their views, or because they are insecure and keep going until they win a point. They feel that they ?must be right?, whereas Sunnis say to themselves ?how I wish I was right! Come on!?
You will find here 4 threads with my name, all designed to catch me out
http//forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewforum.php?f=22
And another
http//forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewforum.php?f=21
There are 6 threads here which concern ?MesMorial?s? debates
http//forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewforum.php?f=23
The top one is typical of how Islamophobes will not stop until they catch you out on a point, no matter how many they already tried.
Of course the reason I mention is that you have the nastiness of certain Sunnis, with the behaviour of the other. Neither uses logic, and it is a sign of emotional attachment to something. I would like to know which emotional attachment inspires your posts, and I basically asked this at the end of my first post (to you).
The other reason I mention is to show you something more about my activities, with hopes you will not continue to talk without knowledge. You thought I was Sunni-Qur?anist, then (still) a liar ? what?s next? That is the point.
Let?s see
You tell me that I am nasty when you catch me lying, but maybe you were reading it with a mirror.
You inform me I preach a religion (you used that word again) which I do not believe. Unfortunately we were discussing a matter of history, therefore if as a Muslim I tended towards a certain historical opinion, there is no reason why I would not hold that position now.
Finally, my YouTube is basically poetry, Islamic reform and philosophy. Could you please be more specific?
My final question would be why you preach a religion you don?t practice.
Cheers.
Oh my God you just insist on writing to me although i tried to ignore you brickwall. Cant you just get away ? You know that I dont care about your silly opinions, so I would really appreciate if you dont write anything to me again, thanks.
Bye bye