3:7 A MATTER OF PUNCTUATION MARKS. WHICH IS CORRECT?
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sorry for interjecting, but I just wanted to add my own thoughts, since this topic seems to be interesting.
Best wishes to you shuaib.
You are welcomeyes the topic is interestingI like that you have joined I have read your posts in Quran study group and your writing, in general, make much sense to mesome points where I disagree ill probably discuss with you later.
Actually I might start right now since our understanding of 3/7 obviously differ.
I am aware of your stance and in my pursue of the correct meaning I have come accross such or similar views a lot of times.heres my reasons for not upholding such a view of 37
1 First its a meaning of words muhkamat and mutashabihat which I have checked in several good dictionaries and grammar books, however since my Arabic is far from perfect, for the sake of discussion and being open to all possibilities, of which some I maybe not understand right now, I`ll accept your view as a gramatially and lexically valid.
2 The second difficulty which I perceive in the understanding under the question is inability to account for the fact that the ayats/signs/messages/utterances/sayings which belong in the category which you have described as mutashabihat are not the only ones which are followed and abused by those in whose hearts is a deviation?
Besides, arent those in whose heart is a deviation interested in abusing the ayats which refer to this word as well, shuldnt they been particularly interested in creating the discord or misleading by the misinterpretation of the matters referring to this world as well? Arent hese things more suitable for the cration of the discord and misleading?
Obviously the ayats which you classified as mutashabihat arent the only ones abused and thus it makes the understanding not fitting.
3 Third , why those ayats which you have classified as muhkamat are called mother, prototype, basis, source, of the book and why those which you have classified as mutashabihat are not?
All these difficulties dissapear if we accept my meanings of muhkamat and mutashabihat.( I have explained it several times in this thread and if needed I will repeat and elaborate again later).
As I see it, this thread has revolved around the true meaning of ayah 37. I think the meaning is really quite clear, but it has been twisted for the advantage of certain people who wish to discredit and weaken the Quran.
The meaning of the word mutashaabih seems to be thrown around here for some reason. The meaning of this word is firmly established from various sources, and it does not mean ambiguous. First let me explain what my view of the meaning of 37 is, then the rest will be obvious.
Which are these sources?
I checked in several very good dictionaries some of them are considered of the best works(lisanul arab for example) and they all included ambiguous or similar as one of the meanings for this word
The Quran is essentially saying that there are 2 basic kinds of verses. One deals with the real world in terms of how we live in it, the laws that apply here, things that have happened here, etc.. all the things that we can see/explore with our human minds. The other kinds of verses are things that are BEYOND human comprehension because of the limitations of our minds... such as heaven/hell. These are explained to us by SIMILITUDES (mutashaabih), such as gardens and fire, in terms of things that we can grasp. But people who are bent on creating FITNA, try to search and explore these things to the point of trying to figure out say the dimensions of hell, or the construction of the houses in jannah, or if Allah truly has a hand, or actually physically sits on a throne, etc... these people are creating fitna about things that only Allah can know because they are OUTSIDE the realm of the human comprehension, and transcend space-time and the physical world that we relate to.
Your understanding is based on a subjective interpretation rather than upon any translation of the verse
To witness this you just try to present or coin the translation on which it is based and you wont be able to offer any translation from which all this meanings could be extricated without subjective addition and overinterpretation-not based on the text or actualy wording of the translation
I am in a luck of time now il elaborate further if needed maybe tomorrow..
best wishes, Zlatan
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Salams Zlatan,
thanks for your warm welcome.
Well after reading your post, I'm not sure but I think we do agree on some points.. it's always good to start with the common ground. Anyway, I do disagree with some of your reasoning. Let me explain.
First, let me just establish something which I think is quite obvious. I think pretty much all Muslims can agree that there is a physical world, and then an "afterlife" or nonphysical world. The Quran, since it deals with all reality, discusses both the real tangible world, as well as the intangible afterlife. Obviously, since the intangible aspects of the "afterlife" can only be known to us by description in terms of things we can relate to, things that we can conceive of in our physically limited minds (similitude). So, there are verses of the Quran that deal with the physical world and those that deal with the "afterlife" which are explained through similitudes.
So regardless of what you think the true meaning of 37 is, I think all Muslims can agree that a simple way to divide the verses of the Quran are verses dealing with the physical world (how to eat/drink, marry etc), and the intangible (characteristics of Allah, jannah, jahannam, etc). So even if you reject the interpretation I gave of 37, I am sure that you would still agree with the statements I made in general, right? I just want to make sure we are on the same page.
Since you replied in such an organized manner, it makes it easier to reply.
1 First it?s a meaning of words muhkamat and mutashabihat which I have checked in several good dictionaries and grammar books?, however since my Arabic is far from perfect, for the sake of discussion and being open to all possibilities, of which some I maybe not understand right now, I`ll accept your view as a gramatially and lexically valid?.
Okay.
2 The second difficulty which I perceive in the understanding under the question is inability to account for the fact that the ayats/signs/messages/utterances/sayings which belong in the category which you have described as mutashabihat are not the only ones which are followed and abused by those in whose hearts is a deviation?
Well this reasoning makes little sense to me. There are millions of ways to reject faith and commit kufr. The purpose of a single verse is never to describe ALL the ways... it's merely describing ONE way that people can take the words of the Quran and create fitna.
3 Third , why those ayats which you have classified as muhkamat are called mother, prototype, basis, source, of the book and why those which you have classified as mutashabihat are not?
Well first of all you have to have an understanding of umm. A basic translation can be understood as "the basis for." So, what this says is that the muhkamaat ayahs which are the tangible verses that deal with the PHYSICAL world in which we live, form the basis. The verse is explaining that the backbone and basis of the Quran are really the muhkamaat verses which deal with things that we as human beings perceive and experience. This makes sense to me because THOSE are the things that we actually practice and implement. And it is understanding of the physical world that gives us our understanding of the mutashaabihaat in the first place.
All these difficulties dissapear if we accept ?my? meanings of muhkamat and mutashabihat?.( I have explained it several times in this thread and if needed I will repeat and elaborate again later).
Well I think I have explained how these "difficulties" are really not there in the first place.
As far as sources for the word meanings, I have lisaan al arab and other lexicons... and I agree that there are some words derived from the root which can mean unclear... but a special kind of unclear. When 2 things are very similar and it is difficult to discern the differences, that is where this menaing is coming from. But anyway, lisaan al arab does give a specific meaning to mutashaabihaat, and it is similitude. Only for shabbaha or shubha does it add the item of "ambiguity."
But I think your point has an element of truth, and that is present in the word for a reason. There is obviously ambiguity about the REAL characteristics of Allah and what jannah is REALLY like. We only know a little through the similitudes, but we know that it's not REALLY a physical throne that Allah actually SITS on... we just know that its SOMETHING like that.
The only thing I am not adding for now is a "translation" as you asked for (because of lack of time right now). But you may surmise from the above that I have gone through that process already.
walaikum assalam
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Peace be upon you Shuaib,
I think you gave an excellent understanding of 37. I disagree only on one point (I think).
That point is that the God is talking about "al kitaab", not "al quran". These are two different words for two different concepts. The God is telling us in 37 about the SIGNS(ayaat), not verses, in the book of life(al kitaab). Remember, we are writing our own books(kitaab) with the actions we make in life, we are told that we wil recieve this book in either our right or left hand at the end of this all.
al quraan, the reading, is a guide to al kitaab, and in this guide we are told about the two types of signs in life, that which is straightfoward, like how you can put water in a freezer and make ice, or how fire burns, the physical side as you stated very clearly in your response, then we have the side of LIFE that is not so clear, the MENTAL/SPIRITUAL side. There are people who like to use the mental/spiriytual side to mislead mankind, like scholars, priests, imams, rabbis, presidents, dictators, etc.
Only those who are well grounded in knowledge can have access to the God's higher realms and get the true understandings, not the 100% full understanding of all things, but indeed the ful understanding of the message that is sent tto us in order for us to be guided. That which we cannot understand cannot be a guide.
Brother Shuiab, please tell me if you see the difference, we agree on principle, just differ on the word "kitaab".
Thank you for helping to clarify this for me in my own Mind.
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salam idolfree,
Well I think that is quite a stretch.
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The Quran has in no other place referred to life as kitaab and of course the root has nothing to do with life. Also, it's used AL-kitaab which every other place in the Quran that refers specifically to the Quran.
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ALSO, you have not accounted for the word ANZALA which would make no sense if al-kitaab referred to life experiences... the "book of life" as you call it is not anzala or brought to us, it is experienced i.e. written by us.
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Not only this, but the verses JUST previous to this one are SPECIFICALLY referring to books and in name the torah and injeel 33.
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Furthermore, there is no indication from anywhere that mutashaabihaat means spiritual side of something, and even if it did we do not gain knowledge of that through experience, we gained that through revelation.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuaib,
Well I think that is quite a stretch.
So much for us agreeing D
- The Quran has in no other place referred to life as kitaab and of course the root has nothing to do with life. Also, it's used AL-kitaab which every other place in the Quran that refers specifically to the Quran.
Show me one verse that shows "kitaab" is talking about the book that people call "quran". The word deals with that which is written. We are "writing" our "books" as we live. What do you understand as the books we will be given in the end in either our right or left hands?
(54 And We descended to you The Book with the truth , confirming to what (is) between his hands from The Book ...
Life itself confirms that which is between his hands. Al Kitaab confirms this reading(quran).
Again, please bring one verse that describes "quran" as "al kitaab". The God does not use two words for the exact same concept.
- ALSO, you have not accounted for the word ANZALA which would make no sense if al-kitaab referred to life experiences... the "book of life" as you call it is not anzala or brought to us, it is experienced i.e. written by us.
I disagree, most people go through life BLINDED from reality, only those who recieve the book can truly begin the journey. Remember, they are called people of the book, not books.
- Not only this, but the verses JUST previous to this one are SPECIFICALLY referring to books and in name the torah and injeel 33.
They are not names of books, people have wrongly brought christian ideology to the God's truthful message.
- Furthermore, there is no indication from anywhere that mutashaabihaat means spiritual side of something, and even if it did we do not gain knowledge of that through experience, we gained that through revelation.
I am not sure how you don't understand this part as this is what you said earlier,
So regardless of what you think the true meaning of 37 is, I think all Muslims can agree that a simple way to divide the verses of the Quran are verses dealing with the physical world (how to eat/drink, marry etc), and the intangible (characteristics of Allah, jannah, jahannam, etc)
I am in agreement, but I take it out of the pages and bring it into real life(Kitaab). The life that we are all currently writing. The human being is always in a state of becoming, always writing that book.
I look foward to rour next chapter/response D
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assalamu alaikum idolfree,
Well yes, it seems we do not agree a whole lot. Also, I think you
really misunderstood what I meant to say in my explanation of 37.There are 2 universes... one is the physical world in which we live,
the other is the "afterlife." There is no way for us to perceive or to
clearly know what exactly it is like in the afterlife, since our human
minds are limited by physical restraints. The ONLY way for us to gain
knowledge is for Allah to tell us (we have NO connection or knowledge
of that world by our lives here, ONLY Allah knows what the afterlife
is like). So obviously, ONLY Allah can provide the mutashaabihaat or
similitudes of the afterlife. He knows all about this world AND the
next, and he can use similitudes from our own physical world to give
us a general idea of what it will be like.So clearly, I take kitaab to mean Allah's BOOK, the Quran, because
that is our ONLY communication with Allah and hence the ONLY way to
gain knowledge of those kinds of things. NOT through experience.
You must realize that the burden of proof is upon you. You are making
claims for a radically different view that is not suggested by the
Arabic words of the Quran. To translate kitaab as "book of life" without the additional words of life is far-fetched to start with... doesn't mean it isn't right, it just means that right off the bat you have a huge burden of proof on your idea."the book that people call "quran". "
"people" don't call it the quran, Allah does. But this statement shows your subconscious leanings.
" I disagree, most people go through life BLINDED from reality, only those who recieve the book can truly begin the journey. "
Ok this is strange, so WHAT book ARE you talking about? Only those who receive the book can start the journey on the book of life? What BOOK? Here you are CLEARLY referring to 2 separate things whether you realize it or not... a book that begins the journey that is revealed, and a book of our actions. Did you realize this duality? It results from trying to uphold an idea which cannot sustain itself.
So really instead of providing strong evidence to understand kitaab not as a REAL written book, you are asking for evidence.
Well I won't even go into the linguistic reasoning, since that is obvious. Kitaab MEANS book.
As far as verses to support this idea... how about the following
- Here is AL-KITAAB, within which is NO DOUBT and is a GUIDANCE
How can the so-called "book of life" be without doubt and also a guidance for others???
4136 O ye who believe! Believe in God and His Apostle, and the
al-KITAAB which He hath sent to His messenger and the scripture which He
sent to those before (him). Any who denieth God, His angels, His
Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far
astray.5727 Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our
apostles We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on
him the INJEEL; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed
him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for
themselves, We did not prescribe for them (We commanded) only the
seeking for the Good Pleasure of God; but that they did not foster as
they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who
believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious
transgressors.6155 And this is al-kitaab which We have revealed as a blessing so
follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy
6156 Lest ye should say "The Book was sent down to two Peoples
before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that
they learned by assiduous study"2885 Verily He Who ordained the QURAN for thee, will bring thee back
to the Place of Return. Say "My Lord knows best who it is that brings
true guidance, and who is in manifest error."
2886 And thou hadst not expected that AL-KITAAB would be sent to thee
except as a Mercy from thy Lord Therefore lend not thou support in
any way to those who reject (God's Message).3529 Those who REHEARSE (RECITE) AL-KITAAB of God, establish regular Prayer, and spend (in Charity) out of what We have provided for them, secretly
and openly, hope for a commerce that will never failClearly these verses demonstrate that kitaab often refers to specifically the Quran. And to have a verse that speaks of AYAAT-ul-KITAAB and just before this a few verses explain how the torah and injeel (which i have shown in the previous verses WERE books revealed) were revealed AS A GUIDANCE and FURQAN to judge right and wrong and those who reject the ayaat will suffer penalities
... to turn around and say kitaab simply means book of life totally disregards the Arabic, the context, and there is absolutely no support for it. Not only that but as I said, mutashaabihaat can only be given by Allah through his only comminication to us, the Quran.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
assalamu alaikum idolfree,
No need to speak Arabic to me brother, I prefer english
Well yes, it seems we do not agree a whole lot. Also, I think you
really misunderstood what I meant to say in my explanation of 37.There are 2 universes... one is the physical world in which we live,
the other is the "afterlife." There is no way for us to perceive or to
clearly know what exactly it is like in the afterlife, since our human
minds are limited by physical restraints. The ONLY way for us to gain
knowledge is for Allah to tell us (we have NO connection or knowledge
of that world by our lives here, ONLY Allah knows what the afterlife
is like). So obviously, ONLY Allah can provide the mutashaabihaat or
similitudes of the afterlife. He knows all about this world AND the
next, and he can use similitudes from our own physical world to give
us a general idea of what it will be like.I also agree, except I do not use the term "afterlife", to me it is the unseen world, which is where we came from and is where we will return. It is a mental world, which is likened to sleep, where the physical body is not unilized for the most part. The God gives us similitudes to help us understand. This is possible because as the ancients used to say"as above so below" or another way to say it is "in heaven as on earth".
(225) And announce good news (to) those who have faith and did/made the correct/righteous deeds, that to them (are) treed gardens the rivers flow from beneath it. Whenever they (were) provided for from it from a fruit a provision ,they said "This (is) what we were provided for from before." And they were given with it similar , and for them in it (are) purified spouses and they are in it immortally/eternally .
So that which is in the Unseen world, the mental/spiritual world, is similar to this world.
So clearly, I take kitaab to mean Allah's BOOK, the Quran, because
that is our ONLY communication with Allah and hence the ONLY way to
gain knowledge of those kinds of things. NOT through experience.No, please look again. Abraham, our example, looked at the stars , moon, and sun. We do not need a book to learn from the God. He tells us His signs are everywhere, from the horizons to within ourselves. This reading(quran) is just a helpful tool that the righteous prepare for us. The word "quran" only means reading. And we single out the God's reading by witnessing how it does not contradict. ANY truthful reading is described as the God's reading(quran). People later have made this the title of a book.
Again, please show a verse that links the book to the reading.
You must realize that the burden of proof is upon you.
No, the God has relieved my burden. I do not need to prove anything, but I enjoy debating towards truth.
You are making
claims for a radically different view that is not suggested by the
Arabic words of the Quran. To translate kitaab as "book of life" without the additional words of life is far-fetched to start with... doesn't mean it isn't right, it just means that right off the bat you have a huge burden of proof on your idea.I do not translate al kitaab that way, I translate it as book, but the implication is that it is the book that we are creating as we live our lives, which is why I wrote it that way.
"the book that people call "quran". "
Yes, this message is above names, as is the Source of this message.
"people" don't call it the quran, Allah does. But this statement shows your subconscious leanings.
The God describes it as the reading, just as he describes it as the criterion, and a whole list of other descriptions. Who gave the authority for man to take one of the descriptions and apply it as a title?
" I disagree, most people go through life BLINDED from reality, only those who recieve the book can truly begin the journey. "
Yes, only those who become concious of life, not blindly wandering through life "spiritually dead". One must die from the physical world and be ressurected in the spiritual world, but the christians took that literally, they were given a similitude and took it literally, as many of us do.
Ok this is strange, so WHAT book ARE you talking about? Only those who receive the book can start the journey on the book of life? What BOOK? Here you are CLEARLY referring to 2 separate things whether you realize it or not... a book that begins the journey that is revealed, and a book of our actions. Did you realize this duality? It results from trying to uphold an idea which cannot sustain itself.
No, there is no difference. The book(al kitaab) is being written right now, by everyone, just not everyone is aware of that. When one CHOOSES to tyurn towards the God, THEN the book(al kitaab) is descended upon them, the conciousness of life is made clear. This is what I mean.
So really instead of providing strong evidence to understand kitaab not as a REAL written book, you are asking for evidence.
I hope the above explanation will show you that I am not seaching for evidence. I am trying to explain my position. It is not mandatory for you to accept it.
Well I won't even go into the linguistic reasoning, since that is obvious. Kitaab MEANS book.
No one is denying that. I am saying that YOU ARE THE BOOK!
(2216) It is written on you the fighting...
(279) ...so grief/distress/woe (expression) to them from what their hands wrote
(593) Where it not for that The God wrote the departure/moving out on them, He would have tortured them in the present world, and for them in the end the fire's torture
(532) Because of that, We wrote on the children of Israel's...
As far as verses to support this idea... how about the following
- Here is AL-KITAAB, within which is NO DOUBT and is a GUIDANCE
How can the so-called "book of life" be without doubt and also a guidance for others???
Bruce Lee once said while pointing to the sky" don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of the heavenly glory".
This reading(quran) is a guide to this life(al kitaab). The life of this world is made of STRICT LAWS, so there is no doubt in it. That is why it is the ESSENCE of the Book(life). The part where there can be doubt is the part we cannot SEE. That is the UNSEEN world. Please have a look again at the verse I gave you.
(54 And We descended to you The Book with the truth , confirming to what (is) between his hands from The Book...
What is between his hands? We already know that "WE" refers to the God, so it is not talking about between the God's "hands". The God tells us to VERIFY information, how do you do so unless you go to life itself to verify these statements? When the God says the earth is egg shaped, do you go back to that very same verse to confrim it, or do you look at the creation to verify it? The God constatly tells us to look at creation and the interactions with other humans.
4136 O ye who believe! Believe in God and His Apostle, and the
al-KITAAB which He hath sent to His messenger and the scripture which He
sent to those before (him). Any who denieth God, His angels, His
Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far
astray.Exactly! When you strive in the God's path, He rasies you by degrees, until you reach the level(nabi) where he descends the book upon you, you become concious of life, and you begin to spread the message(rasool) of life. I don't deny that.
5727 Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our
apostles We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on
him the INJEEL; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed
him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for
themselves, We did not prescribe for them (We commanded) only the
seeking for the Good Pleasure of God; but that they did not foster as
they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who
believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious
transgressors.The words "torah" and injeel" are not names of books. The God says that He gave us all, from as far back as Noah, up until the present, the SAME SYSTEM(deen). Why would there be seperate books with seperate "TITLES" , but the same message? Something is fishy here! wink
6155 And this is al-kitaab which We have revealed as a blessing so
follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy
6156 Lest ye should say "The Book was sent down to two Peoples
before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that
they learned by assiduous study"Yes, to become concious of life is a blessing. We must study life, in accordance with our guidance from this reading(quran).
2885 Verily He Who ordained the QURAN for thee, will bring thee back
to the Place of Return. Say "My Lord knows best who it is that brings
true guidance, and who is in manifest error."Right, I agree.
2886 And thou hadst not expected that AL-KITAAB would be sent to thee
except as a Mercy from thy Lord Therefore lend not thou support in
any way to those who reject (God's Message).Are you aware that people from all "titles" will be rewarded with the "garden"? So we are not talking about a specific book, we are talking about a reading that speaks the truth(quran).
(262) Those who have faith, and those who follow the "hadoo", and the "nasara" and the "sabieena" ANY who have faith in The God and the Ending time, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve
3529 Those who REHEARSE (RECITE) AL-KITAAB of God, establish regular Prayer, and spend (in Charity) out of what We have provided for them, secretly
and openly, hope for a commerce that will never failYes, just as Ibrahim recited the Book when he studied the planetary objects and came to the conclusion that the God is the Greatest.
Let me give you another verse to ponder.
(3113) They are not equal/alike , from The Book's people, (are) a nation maintaining , they read/recite The God's signs (during) the night's hours, and they prostrate (hear and obey).
If you take the people of the book to be jews and christians, then what "book" are they recitiing?
Clearly these verses demonstrate that kitaab often refers to specifically the Quran.
I stongly disagree, but I once saw it like you did, so I have patience.
And to have a verse that speaks of AYAAT-ul-KITAAB and just before this a few verses explain how the torah and injeel (which i have shown in the previous verses WERE books revealed) were revealed AS A GUIDANCE and FURQAN to judge right and wrong and those who reject the ayaat will suffer penalities
What AYAAT do the people of he book recite in 3113?
...
to turn around and say kitaab simply means book of life totally disregards the Arabic, the context, and there is absolutely no support for it.I have shown that it supports it strongly, it is just new to you, so I recommend patience as we continue to discuss it. I am not trying to force it on you , so just be patient and let it marinate for a while.
Not only that but as I said, mutashaabihaat can only be given by Allah through his only comminication to us, the Quran.
So what do the people of the book do in 3113?
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peace shuaib, kyle, all,
pm This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
this quran gives detail/clarification to al-kitab.
Wakas
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Peace be upon you Wakas,
Exactly. This reading is a guide to "al kitaab", they are not the same thing.
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Salams idolfree,
Well i think it's quite amazing how you were able to slickly avoid the main points of what I was saying. But as you suggest, I will have patience as you have patience with me.
Instead of going through all my previous points, I think I would rather go step by step... I see that you are entrenched in your thinking so deeply that it will be tough to get you to understand what I am saying.
why dont we start with this...
Well if you were able to explain one thing I think that would help...
- This is al-KITAAB within which there is NO DOUBT, a guidance...
If al-kitaab is merely the "book of life" how can this verse POSSIBLY make sense? I can tell you, my "book of life" is definitely not perfect... and certainly not a guidance for others. Nor is anyone else's "book of life" perfect or a guidance for me. What is your interpretation of this??
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuaib,
Well i think it's quite amazing how you were able to slickly avoid the main points of what I was saying. But as you suggest, I will have patience as you have patience with me.
Brother, I answered your post , point by point, how did I "slickly avoid" anything? D
Instead of going through all my previous points, I think I would rather go step by step... I see that you are entrenched in your thinking so deeply that it will be tough to get you to understand what I am saying.
Thats always a possibility, lets continue, point by point, I am certainly in agreement with that.
why dont we start with this...
Well if you were able to explain one thing I think that would help...
- This is al-KITAAB within which there is NO DOUBT, a guidance...
If al-kitaab is merely the "book of life" how can this verse POSSIBLY make sense?
Al kitaab is life itself. Life is based on LAWS that the God created. Do you have any doubt about the LAWS of the UNI-VERSE? Is there guidance in the LAWS of the universe? How has mankind created such things as airplanes, submarines, pyramids of giza? How has man brought together the knowledge to make calculus and algebra? How have we learned how to do heart transplants and find solutions to disease? There is no doubt that in the LAWS of LIFE there is guidance. The reading(quran) points us to the LAWS of Life, which are the Laws of the God. A sign points you in a direction, do not stay focused on the sign.
I can tell you, my "book of life" is definitely not perfect
The God did not say your life would be perfect, He said that there is guidance , without doubt, to be found in life.
... and certainly not a guidance for others
I seriously doubt that there is no guidance to be found in the story of your life. If there is guidance in Pharoahs life, in Abu Lahabs life, in the wife of Lot, and all those who did wrong, surely there is guidance to be found in one who strives to understand the God's message like you are here doing. Wouldn't you agree?
Nor is anyone else's "book of life" perfect or a guidance for me. What is your interpretation of this??
Was anyone on this planet "perfect"? Name this person. But guidance can be found in all of the God's creation, what to do and what not to do.
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Salam idolfree,
Very interesting ideas, and I agree on some things.
I do agree that there is guidance in this physical world. I agree that if you study this physical world you can also arrive at some conclusions like there must be a God, etc.
As far as LAWS, yes, this universe is bound by unchanging laws. And yes, these laws can also be discovered by examining life itself... but only through trial and error, as you can see in the history of mankind. Through trial and error, mankind could come to many of the SAME conclusions that the Quran brings us to.
BUT, that is the whole point. The Quran is a mercy upon us because it is trying to SAVE us the problem of millenia of trials and errors by telling us HOW to set up the perfect society... so that we DONT have to have countless societies destroyed because we just dont understand the laws that make it work.
That is why it says HUDAl-lil-MUTTAQEEN! A muttaqqi is someone who is trying to walk a narrow path of truth, surrounded on either side by dangerous thorns that can prick and hurt him if he wavers.
That is why, 22 is saying This al-kitaab is a GUIDANCE to those who want to save themselves from life's dangerous obstacles!
Using your "translations," who ISN'T following 22??? Christians, Jews, atheists, ALL of them look to science to guide the way nowadays, and all of them follow the laws they are taught through them. What was the purpose of the QURAN then???
22 is in NO WAY talking about the "book of life," also because NO ONE'S book of life (as you also said) is perfect or FREE FROM RAIB!!!
Was anyone on this planet "perfect"? Name this person.
No HUMAN BEINGS "book of life" is a guidance for ANYONE else.
But I see you are beginning to TWIST your words in order to accomodate your viewpoint. It used to be that you said kitaab refers to the book of ACTIONS accumulated by a person (i.e. every kitaab refers to a manmade HUMAN-created kitaab of deeds). NOW you are saying life ITSELF is a kitaab??? This is very slick wording and you are being quite the slippery fish with your terminology.
Now the universe is also kitaab???? And human beings book of deeds is also al-kitaab?? And the Quran is also kitaab??
wassalam
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Peace be upon you brother Shuiab,
Very interesting ideas, and I agree on some things.
I do agree that there is guidance in this physical world. I agree that if you study this physical world you can also arrive at some conclusions like there must be a God, etc.
Yes, we agree there. I think this is the process that all of the righteous take in the "abraham" stage of life, where we look at creation and finally realize there MUST be something greater who created it all for a purpose.
As far as LAWS, yes, this universe is bound by unchanging laws. And yes, these laws can also be discovered by examining life itself... but only through trial and error, as you can see in the history of mankind. Through trial and error, mankind could come to many of the SAME conclusions that the Quran brings us to.
Yes, that is why the righteous scribes write down the words of the "nabiyeen". So that mankind won't have to go through the same trial and error, but many of us do anyway, especially when that message gets corrupted and turned into a "religion". But then again, the God says that He is going to test us like He tested those before us.
BUT, that is the whole point. The Quran is a mercy upon us because it is trying to SAVE us the problem of millenia of trials and errors by telling us HOW to set up the perfect society... so that we DONT have to have countless societies destroyed because we just dont understand the laws that make it work.
Yes, the God's reading(quran) comes to POINT US in the right direction, but it is not restricted to the One book that people have given the title "QURAN" to. ANY teaching that teaches the truth is the God's reading"quran". The God's reading points us to the workings of LIFE(al kitaab)
That is why it says HUDAl-lil-MUTTAQEEN! A muttaqqi is someone who is trying to walk a narrow path of truth, surrounded on either side by dangerous thorns that can prick and hurt him if he wavers.
Absolutely, and people have walked that path WELL BEFORE this particular Book came into exsistence. There are "people of the Book" who do not follow the Book that has been wrongly titled "quran' that will have thier reward with thier Lord, and that is because the God' reading"quran" is not limited to one Book.
That is why, 22 is saying This al-kitaab is a GUIDANCE to those who want to save themselves from life's dangerous obstacles!
Of course there is guidance in TRUTH (God's reading), and there is guidance in life(al kitaab). The reading is part of LIFE(al kitaab). There is guidance in BOTH. For example, you ant to go to a seminar to learn microsoft windows. That seminar contains guidance for you, but so do the signs that lead you to the seminar.
Using your "translations," who ISN'T following 22??? Christians, Jews, atheists, ALL of them look to science to guide the way nowadays, and all of them follow the laws they are taught through them. What was the purpose of the QURAN then???
No way, most of mankind do not follow the signs thst Science points to. Look at all the cigarette smokers, all the homosexuals, all the murdererd, all the money hoarders, all the people that eat way too much meat all the opressors (mentally and physically), etc, etc, etc.
22 is in NO WAY talking about the "book of life," also because NO ONE'S book of life (as you also said) is perfect or FREE FROM RAIB!!!
(22) says that without doubt, there is guidance in LIFE(al kitaab). Now if you want to assert that NO ONE's LIFE can be used as an example, then what about the examples of "Noah, Abraham, Musa, Shuiab, Aaron, Isa, etc."? Aren't they described as "men like us"?
But I see you are beginning to TWIST your words in order to accomodate your viewpoint. It used to be that you said kitaab refers to the book of ACTIONS accumulated by a person (i.e. every kitaab refers to a manmade HUMAN-created kitaab of deeds). NOW you are saying life ITSELF is a kitaab??? This is very slick wording and you are being quite the slippery fish with your terminology.
Respected brother, I am not twisting my words, at times I am narrowing the discussion so I can explain. All of creation is from the God's WORD. That is why we find the term UNI(one) VERSE(word). The God only says "BE", and it becomes. EVERYTING is part of the BOOK(al kitaab), which is LIFE. Each of us have a part to play in this STORY. Depending on what part you play, you will recieve this "book" in your right or left hand when it is done. Please let me know if you see any inconsistency in my statement.
Now the universe is also kitaab????
Absolutely! Uni-Verse (one word), words make up a book. That is why we see the so called "initails" at the beginning of some chapters, they are called SIGNS. Letters make words, words make books.
And human beings book of deeds is also al-kitaab??
Yes, we are all characters in the Book, People of the Book.
And the Quran is also kitaab??
this book that people call "quran" is part of creation, therefore it is part of the book, the God says this;
(548 ) And We descended to you The Book(Life) with the truth , confirming to what (is) between his hands from The Book
That which is between his hands is FROM the Book(life).
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Salams all,
br zlatan, we will await your response.. if it takes time, it must be worth it.
br idolfree...
I have a problem with what you are saying. And when I say twisting words, I mean playing fast and loose with your own definitions. Being like a slippery fish meaning that you change the definitions of your terms to suit whatever point you make.
You have not given a coherent definition of al-kitaab. First, I thought your definition was straightforward... it was simply the book of our recorded actions. Each person will have an individual book of actions.
THAT, is an ENTIRELY separate thing from the physical world which you also call al-kitaab. Firstly, this definition of KITAAB is absolutely unwarranted and bizarre. WHY on earth would the physical universe be called kitaab? Sure, the things that play out in the physical universe can relate to and enter into our books of actions, BUT the universe itself cannot be called kitaab! Firstly, the Arabic TOTALLY does not warrant that meaning... and the Quran was revealed in Arabic for a reason, and the Arabic language has been preserved for a reason.
Since I've said it twice and you didn't understand, let me make it crystal clear
Definition of al-kitaab according to you
Book of each individuals accumulated actions
vs.
The physical universeThese are two, totally separate, MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE items. For you to mix the two seamlessly just shows your mentality. I feel like the only thing left to do is shake my hands at you... these 2 things are NOT the same. The physical universe and a human beings LIFE in the universe are NOT the same, they are 2 distinct things. SEPARATELY indentifiable, SEPARATE characteristics, SEPARATE ends. The physical world will END, our book of life is what is used to judge us. 2 TOTALLY separate COMPLETELY different things.
Yet you apparently effortlessly matter-of-factly blend the 2 seamlessly. I've heard a lot of interesting philosophical views in my time, and this is one of the most bizarre I have to say.
So i'll leave it at that for now... I won't even comment (I guess I already am) on your faulty translation of la RAIBA FIHI. We cannot advance in the discussion unless we get over this hump.
wassalam
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Salam brother Shuaib,
Thank you for providing a very good analysis of 37. I enjoyed reading it and I am now thinking about it.
You have not given a coherent definition of al-kitaab. First, I thought your definition was straightforward... it was simply the book of our recorded actions. Each person will have an individual book of actions.
THAT, is an ENTIRELY separate thing from the physical world which you also call al-kitaab. Firstly, this definition of KITAAB is absolutely unwarranted and bizarre. WHY on earth would the physical universe be called kitaab?
Brother, please have patience and see 21104 where the folding of the universe is described as the folding of "books" (plural).
Sure, the things that play out in the physical universe can relate to and enter into our books of actions, BUT the universe itself cannot be called kitaab! Firstly, the Arabic TOTALLY does not warrant that meaning...
If one looks at time as a record of our actions and at each individual entity, atom and creature as having a book, then indeed the sum of all the books would result in the universe we are experiencing.
and the Quran was revealed in Arabic for a reason, and the Arabic language has been preserved for a reason.
If anything, Arabic was preserved because of the great reading and not the other way around as many people claim. But even if Arabic was not preserved, we would still be able to understand the great reading like we understand manuscripts of many dead languages such as Aramaic.
Definition of al-kitaab according to you
Book of each individuals accumulated actions
vs.
The physical universeThese are two, totally separate, MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE items.
They are not seperate. Please read 1988-95. The whole seen and hidden universe is almost crumbling as I am writing this because of some individuals' action. This is how much our actions affect the universe.
For you to mix the two seamlessly just shows your mentality. I feel like the only thing left to do is shake my hands at you... these 2 things are NOT the same. The physical universe and a human beings LIFE in the universe are NOT the same, they are 2 distinct things. SEPARATELY indentifiable, SEPARATE characteristics, SEPARATE ends. The physical world will END, our book of life is what is used to judge us. 2 TOTALLY separate COMPLETELY different things.
Yet you apparently effortlessly matter-of-factly blend the 2 seamlessly. I've heard a lot of interesting philosophical views in my time, and this is one of the most bizarre I have to say.
So i'll leave it at that for now... I won't even comment (I guess I already am) on your faulty translation of la RAIBA FIHI. We cannot advance in the discussion unless we get over this hump.
We all make errors. I am not defending or attacking anybody. Our "din"/obligation should be "al-7aq"/the truth. That is how we advance. My only advice is to use patience.
With all best wishes and peace,
Ayman
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Salams Ayman,
thank you for your post. you know i do have to say that i think this is a great and active forum.
ok, thank you for your compliment on my analysis of 37. But for some reason, just like br idolfree, i dont think you actually agree with me even though you might think you do.
anyway, i will study the ayaat you have mentioned. on cursory glance i really dont even understand how you are using those ayaat to support your points but i will study them further. In fact 1988-95, did you misquote? I dont even see how that is relevant.
i just wanted to post a point that i am having an incredibly tough time getting across.
The universe is an inanimate creation... within it are some animate creations with free will. The universe has no free will, and is at our disposal to use according to Allah's laws. It is USED by us.
How can the record of how we used it, be the SAME THING as the physical inanimate universe. It makes no sense. That's like saying the history of China is ACTUALLY the landmass called China. Or President Bush's biography is actually the physical land mass called the USA. It's total nonsense. It's so nonsensical that you can't even imagine it. The history/record of something/someone is NOT equal to that thing.
You might build a house. But you are NOT the house, and the house is NOT you.
They are 2 distinct totally separate entities, even though the latter is the direct result of the former. The same way that everything is created by Allah, but ONLY He is Allah and the creation is distinct and separate from Him even though it's a direct result of His action.
Our records of what we did in the universe is not the same thing as the universe. They are NOT the same thing. You dont need to show any ayaat to demonstrate that it is, because it's an absolutely nonsensical statement to state that they ARE the same thing. Can anyone acknowledge this??
Therefore, to so calmly and nonchalantly pretend that anyone's book of deeds is al-kitaab and that is the same thing as the physical universe al-kitaab, is ludicrous.
But nonetheless this is an interesting discussion and I want to figure out how exactly you and br. idolfree are coming to this conclusion. And my own knowledge definitely expands from discussions like these.
You would think if this entire universe and everything in it should be referred to as kitaab, that there would be SOME mention in the Quran that says, hey muslims, the universe and your actions are all kitaabs. You are a kitaab, you'll get a kitaab that you wrote by living in a kitaab.
wassalam
GOT KITAB?
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Peace Ayman, Shuaib, all
Salam brother Shuaib,
Thank you for providing a very good analysis of 37. I enjoyed reading it and I am now thinking about it.
You have not given a coherent definition of al-kitaab. First, I thought your definition was straightforward... it was simply the book of our recorded actions. Each person will have an individual book of actions.
THAT, is an ENTIRELY separate thing from the physical world which you also call al-kitaab. Firstly, this definition of KITAAB is absolutely unwarranted and bizarre. WHY on earth would the physical universe be called kitaab?
Brother, please have patience and see 21104 where the folding of the universe is described as the folding of "books" (plural).
Just to say that "We roll up the heavens like the scroll of a scripture is rolled up" is an allegory.
You would think if this entire universe and everything in it should be referred to as kitaab, that there would be SOME mention in the Quran that says, hey muslims, the universe and your actions are all kitaabs. You are a kitaab, you'll get a kitaab that you wrote by living in a kitaab.
What is in the heavens and the Earth is in a record (kitab), that doesn't imply that the heavens and the Earth = kitaab but both are closely dependent
FM
2270. Did you not know that God knows what is in the heavens and the Earth? All is in a record. All that for God is easy.Ahmad shabir
2270 Do you not know that Allah is fully Aware of all that is in the High and the Low? All that, behold, is in the Divine Database. Verily, all this is easy for Allah.- And there is not a thing hidden in the heavens or the Earth, but is in a clear record
Allow me a small parenthesis
When I read the book on "before the big bang", the authors arrive to this amazing conclusion, The universe before the big bang = information and have no physical aspectInformation---->big bang---> the universe----->the end---> information
Allah knows best
Marie
