Quran and rationalism
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According to historical accounts, the early muslims have converted many people.
They may have fabricated these miracles to ease their enterprise.;D
I basically agree but it needs further critical questions.
Three people come to you and each of them claim to be the messenger of Allah. They are A, B, and C.
A claim that the punishment for adultery is 50 lashes. B claim that the punishment for adultery is 25 lashes. C claim that the punishment for adultery is 5 lashes. The content of the message is basically the same (the adulterer have to be punished) but the severity differs. Which law will you implement as God's law without proofs?
What is important in God?s message is the NO to idolatry (with all its consequences, see http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0).
At his times, Muhammad was the only one to hold this discourse.I am not sure whether you understood my question or not. My question has nothing to do with the era of prophet Muhammad. My question was logical. When three persons come to you, and each claims to be the messenger of Allah with different God's laws then which law will you implement as God's laws without proofs? Just imagine my question is in the era between Abraham and Moses to help you understand it.
And since God?s message has eventually been preserved in the Quran, there is no need for new messengers.
As far as I know, Allah never says that Muhammad is the last messenger.
Wassalam,
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There is no variation in God?s laws.
A human being has two hands. Some kids are born with more. Is it a variation in God?s general laws?
No.
Why?
We can explain the so-called exception by farther bottom-line rules of physics where the so-called regularity of two hands and the so-called exception of some deformities come under some same basic laws.
All sticks are sticks. One stick suddenly changed into a snake, then into a stick again. Why should it be considered as a variation in God?s laws? Physics may establish some farther bottom-line rules in future when one may see that this so-called variation is complying with some unchangeable basic laws.
We can not take a report of an unusual incident just because it is not impossible.
We can neither reject an incident reported by God in the Quran just because we yet can not explain it by our knowledge of general natural laws.
How can you be so sure that the incident is not a metaphorical story?
I do not know it either. I am not sure. Are you sure? If yes, how?
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Salaam
Greating to all, and sorry for my bad english.
I will now explain my own opinion. I may add that what I am going to advance is my current understanding, and it needs to be backed by further study of the Quran.
I hope that even if you are convinced about your current understanding, you leave the door open to new understanding for you in the futur, and other understanding for your brothers actually.
Before commenting your views I will sugest to read a booklet by Abu Hamid Al-Ghazaly with the title (faysalu at-tafriqa).
Even if the subject of the book is the takfir he actually went deeply discussing the different ways muslims could understand verses in the Books depending in their nature and ability (5 categories). He was definitly right, we Human differt. And this mean that if God send a message to All mankind it means that His message Must be untelligible and trusted with as many way as there is different type of minds (way of beliving = type d'assentiment, de croyance).
Some of us needs miracle. Some others don't.
Some are quite happy and confident in sticking to litteral meaning. Others need to go to metaphories.I have read what you wrote (in this topic) about the possibility or not of miracles for the messengers. I conclude that you do not believe in miracles (for any prophete) not because you have a rational (definitive) proof (you do not give a real one). You do so cause your personality, the way you belive Do Not need miracles. It does not fit with you. In fact, it hirts your Iman more than helping it. So be it. You're not alone in this case. You belive (dont need "miracle", but other rational things) and that's the goal. The Message fit with you ALSO !
But I hope you are aware that other people differt from you.
If they need to belive in another way than you, this is not a problem. The most important thing is that, as you do, they believe in God, and do their best to be helpfull and bestdoing to mankind (begining by theirselfs) to gain the hereafter.In the Quran, God devotes a lot of words to tell us about the fate of all nations. There is a common pattern to all theses stories
When a nation sticks to God?s laws (values, principles?), it prospers.
And, reciprocally, when a nation abandons God?s laws, it perishes (the nation can have success for some time, but it eventually perishes).The main message of the Quran to the people is the following believe in God, stick to God?s laws and you will have success in this life and in the hereafter.
Agree mainly. But I think that this main God's message (what you call God's law) is Al-Ihsaan = Good doing (?). If it is the case, it means that these God's laws are not really related with a scripture revelation. Nature (another bunch of God's ayah) and our souls direct us toward this good-doing.
Ibrahim found the path before receiving any revelation.
Saba2 queen and her kingdom seems to be mentioned in good terms in the quran.For example I cannot consider Christianity to be the message of God because it holds that the Christians, trough baptism, will be saved.
In the same way, Sunnis and Shiaism promote the superiority of their sect.But we know that Christianity, Sunnism and Shi3ism all of them originated from God's messages.
Why I don?t believe in miracles ?
I am aware that, if God willed so, he could do miracles (exceptional breaking of one of these laws). But he doesn?t, because a sound faith should not rely on this.
In the Quran, we see that only the unbelievers need miracles. The knowledgeable find God?s message self-evident. Thus, asking for miracles is no more than a sign of disbelief.Really do not agree. A sound faith for You have not to rely on tangible things like miracle. But for others it is not sure.
The case of Ibrahim and the need to (...li-yaTma2inna qalby...) is against your arguemtns.Since the message God revealed to his messengers was the same as the one he revealed to Muhammad, and
Again do not agree at all. It is impossible that the message to people living thounsend of years before Jesus have to be the same as the message to muhammed.
From the quran we can find many examples.
Sorry, I have to cointinue later.
Grearting
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peace Prashant Kumar,
God's law never changes. There are no variations in God's laws. That's the whole point.
Your thinking that a man with 3 arms is an example of a variation is wrong. How many arms a person has is determined by the laws of genetics which are unchanging. It is expected that there will be mutations and unusual examples once in a while, that's part of the law.
And this is proven by the fact that everyone has seen mutations in animals and humans, but NO ONE has ever seen a stick turn into a snake. -
Peace phoenix1.
There can be a singular instance of mutation and unusual example. There can even be such event unobserved by any one. Our observation and ability in explaining does not define reality or occurrence.
Even in the case of repeated occurrences, one may put forward the situation of the report of a lone observer of the first such instance. The reported person of the time of the reporter may just as well reject the report on the basis of ?no one has ever seen? and ?we have no scientific explanation of the event?.
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In the Quran, God devotes a lot of words to tell us about the fate of all nations. There is a common pattern to all theses stories
When a nation sticks to God?s laws (values, principles?), it prospers.
And, reciprocally, when a nation abandons God?s laws, it perishes (the nation can have success for some time, but it eventually perishes).The main message of the Quran to the people is the following believe in God, stick to God?s laws and you will have success in this life and in the hereafter.
Agree mainly. But I think that this main God's message (what you call God's law) is Al-Ihsaan = Good doing (?). If it is the case, it means that these God's laws are not really related with a scripture revelation. Nature (another bunch of God's ayah) and our souls direct us toward this good-doing.
Ibrahim found the path before receiving any revelation.
Saba2 queen and her kingdom seems to be mentioned in good terms in the quran.Peace Itinerant,
Welcome to the board, and thanks for your reply.
I don?t agree with that.
It may be true that we naturally incline to do good deeds, but it is also true that we naturally incline to be selfish.
IMHO, we need faith in God to be really good-doers.For example I cannot consider Christianity to be the message of God because it holds that the Christians, trough baptism, will be saved.
In the same way, Sunnis and Shiaism promote the superiority of their sect.But we know that Christianity, Sunnism and Shi3ism all of them originated from God's messages.
Indeed, it is God?s words, distorted by some people in order to serve their vested interests.
Why I don?t believe in miracles ?
I am aware that, if God willed so, he could do miracles (exceptional breaking of one of these laws). But he doesn?t, because a sound faith should not rely on this.
In the Quran, we see that only the unbelievers need miracles. The knowledgeable find God?s message self-evident. Thus, asking for miracles is no more than a sign of disbelief.Really do not agree. A sound faith for You have not to rely on tangible things like miracle. But for others it is not sure.
We have cited for the people in this Quran all kinds of examples, but most people insist upon disbelieving. They said, "We will not believe you unless you cause a spring to gush out of the ground. "Or unless you own a garden of date palms and grapes, with rivers running through it. "Or unless you cause masses from the sky, as you claimed, to fall on us. Or unless you bring GOD and the angels before our eyes. "Or unless you own a luxurious mansion, or unless you climb into the sky. Even if you do climb, we will not believe unless you bring a book that we can read." Say, "Glory be to my Lord. Am I any more than a human messenger?" What prevented the people from believing when the guidance came to them is their saying, "Did GOD send a human being as a messenger?" Say, "If the earth were inhabited by angels, we would have sent down to them from the sky an angel messenger." Say, "GOD suffices as a witness between me and you. He is fully Cognizant of His worshipers, Seer."
Those who disbelieve would say, "If only a miracle could come down to him from his Lord (we would believe)." Say, "GOD sends astray whomever He wills, and guides to Him only those who obey." They are the ones whose hearts rejoice in remembering GOD. Absolutely, by remembering GOD, the hearts rejoice.
Their brethren ceaselessly entice them to go astray. If you do not produce a miracle that they demand, they say, "Why not ask for it?" Say, "I simply follow what is revealed to me from my Lord." These are enlightenments from your Lord, and guidance, and mercy for people who believe.
Say, "This is my path I invite to GOD, on the basis of a clear proof, and so do those who follow me. GOD be glorified. I am not an idol worshiper."
Obviously, only the unbelievers request miracles to the prophet. They are unsatisfied by the message of the Quran, whereas this message is enough for people prone to believe. This shows us that there should be no need to believe in supernatural events to believe in God. The fact God always refused to help the prophet through miracles proves to me that, in God?s way, a sound faith should not rely on miracles. It should rather rely on a deep understanding of God's message.
How do you understand the above verses ?
The case of Ibrahim and the need to (...li-yaTma2inna qalby...) is against your arguemtns.
As you may know, I don?t agree with the traditional rendering of this verse ().
See http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch002-e.pdfSince the message God revealed to his messengers was the same as the one he revealed to Muhammad, and
Again do not agree at all. It is impossible that the message to people living thounsend of years before Jesus have to be the same as the message to muhammed.
He has decreed for you the same system He ordained for Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We ordained for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus ?You shall uphold this system, and do not divide in it.?
In case you have any dispute about that, might you open a new thread ?
Peace
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According to historical accounts, the early muslims have converted many people.
They may have fabricated these miracles to ease their enterprise.;D
I basically agree but it needs further critical questions.
Three people come to you and each of them claim to be the messenger of Allah. They are A, B, and C.
A claim that the punishment for adultery is 50 lashes. B claim that the punishment for adultery is 25 lashes. C claim that the punishment for adultery is 5 lashes. The content of the message is basically the same (the adulterer have to be punished) but the severity differs. Which law will you implement as God's law without proofs?
What is important in God?s message is the NO to idolatry (with all its consequences, see http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0).
At his times, Muhammad was the only one to hold this discourse.I am not sure whether you understood my question or not. My question has nothing to do with the era of prophet Muhammad. My question was logical. When three persons come to you, and each claims to be the messenger of Allah with different God's laws then which law will you implement as God's laws without proofs? Just imagine my question is in the era between Abraham and Moses to help you understand it.
I have understood your question, but I cannot respond to it directly, because, to me, the scenario you describe is impossible.
The number of lashes in the punishment for adultery is not the criterion upon which we should judge whether someone is a messenger of God or not.
And since God?s message has eventually been preserved in the Quran, there is no need for new messengers.
As far as I know, Allah never says that Muhammad is the last messenger.
Wassalam,
In my current opinion, all messengers (rasool) of God were also prophets (nabi), and reciprocally.
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4275.0Anyway, I do not need new messengers. The Quran is sufficient to me.
Peace
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'Rationalism in the Quran' at http//sasnoddy.com/timeless_articles/timeless_article1.htm is worth the read for all out there from an unknown thinker of this time ....
Thank you guest for the link, a very good read.
I sometimes wonder how are we, who accepted Islam and read the Quran in tranbslations going to be rightly guided?... hmm ???PEACE
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There are currently disputes between some members of the forum because of different hermeneutical approaches.
To take an example, if, in the Quran, we read that a stick can move like a snake, there will be 2 reactions
- Some of us will consider it is not physically possible (against physical laws), and will consider it metaphoric
- Some of us will consider that, if God has told so, then it has to be physically possible, even though the physical laws, as we know them today, do not allow it.
There will never be agreements between these 2 kinds of people unless they adopt the same hermeneutical approach.
Here is my stance on the issue.
According to me, nature can be said to be a book of God, as well as the Quran. So, there cannot be contradictions between nature and the Quran.
However, it is possible that the knowledge we have of the laws of nature is imperfect or incorrect.My approach is then to evaluate the reliability of the scientific knowledge (knowledge of the laws of the nature). For example, I will consider that a stick cannot physically move like a snake. On other issues, I may consider that the scientifically knowledge is unreliable.
And, when I estimate that, for an issue, the scientifically knowledge is reliable; I will endeavor to stick my interpretation of the Quran to it. In the case of the stick moving like a snake, I will see it to be metaphoric.I am aware that I can be wrong, but I consider that the likelihood for my interpretation to be wrong is lower while sticking to the scientific knowledge than while sticking to traditional knowledge.
Looking forward for your opinions?
Peace
From the reading of the verses regarding the issue you mentioned about the stick, it seems pretty straight forward. The verses tell us that the disbelievers believed it to be majic, which means they couldn't believe what they were seeing. Or they refused to believe what they saw. However only a very small percentage of mankind witnessed these events and it never made any bearing to whether a person accepted the prophets or not. Faith is in the heart and not eyes.
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The verses tell us that the disbelievers believed it to be majic,
Hi Bigmo,
Could you please tell me which verses you are talking about ?
Peace -
why I don't believe in miracles in the sense tradition tells us - it is too much influenced by Bible and if it's something we cannot understand as humans why God always tells us to think/ ponder...we could just say OK. I believe because God told me to in the Book, there is no need to think about it...then you could believe anything.
The point is there are many magic tricks (and always has been around in humanity) and because people are ignorant they could easily believe some magician is a Prophet if he wanted to. Why would God use the same method as magicians?
To me it's funny that when they see for example Allah written in the honey comb they say Subhanallah look a miracle...but when it's ordinary it's like nothing...like Allah is seperate god from the One who created everything.....
Many people say famous magicians use jinns to help them, but that explanation is ridiculous when you really see what the trick is about...
I am not saying for example that the stick didn't turn into a snake - I watched that there is a specie of a snake that when alarmed becomes rigid as a stick...so that might be one explanation??in some way...or maybe Isa a.s. had the knowledge of CPR so he brought people back to life? I don't have some explanations but I need to research more... -
Peace Andy,
You have to remember that you see what you are thaugt to see. Where in 2260 does it say he chopped the birds up? It says he put on every hill one bird, the group of 4 birds was divided, not the birds themselves. He learned that the birds came through just calling, just as we will come when God 'calls' us. Why did he had to train them, and then chop them up? He wanted to learn how the dead responded to God's call, and God showed him the example how trained birds responded to his call. Exactly like his question was. Also where in 250 does it say, the sea was splitted through a 'miracle'? Moses walked through at lowtide(see, 'splitting'?), and Pharoah was taken by the sudden hightide. Moses was helped to be there at just the right time, nothing more...
And here are some more misunderstood so-called 'miracles'
The healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a diseas that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Propably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth. The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144. It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences. The only Gospel that is in the so-calles Gospels, are Jesus his words, not his deeds, and by thus are the recordings not to be used for understanding and explaining the Quran, but the Quran must be used to explain the Gospel and Jesus's history.
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They are deaf, dumb and blind, and shall never return;
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Sick are their hearts, and God adds to their malady. For them is suffering for they lie.
The Quran uses diseases as metaphors. And the diseases that Jesus cured coincide directly with the metaphoricaly used diseases. This is in my eyes no coincedence. As i use the Quran to explain itself. -
So you place your trust in God. Certainly you stand on positive truth.
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You cannot make the dead to listen, or the deaf to hear the call, when they have turned their backs,
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Nor can you lead the blind when they have gone astray. You can make none hear except those who believe in Our signs and have come to peace and submission.
And you can see clearly in verse 81, that none will hear except the ones who will open up to the message. This what Jesus has done. One of Jesus used phrases is Hear who wants to hear! He made the blind see, the deaf hear, and the dead alive again through the truth he brought. You can see here clearly again that death is used metaphoricaly. As the Quran is one of the Kitab's, all the Books were healings, as the Quran
- If We had made it a discourse in an obscure tongue, they would have said "Why were its revelations not expounded distinctly? A foreign tongue and an Arab (audience)?" Say "For those who believe it is a guidance and a healing; but for those who do not believe it is a deafness in the ears, and a blindness. They are those one calls to from far away. Verily We gave Moses the Book; but they began to differ about it. If the Word of your Lord had not preceded it the matter would have been settled between them. They are still in doubt about it and uneasy.
Again it can be no coincidence that healing, deaf and blindless are used together. Jesus message made people heal from their deafness, blindness and even from their 'deaths'. I use the Quran to explain itself, what do you use? And i don't see Jesus curing literaly as an impossibility, it is that there is no real evidence for this from the Quran. Plus God says He doesn't changes His laws. He can, but He said He won't, so this should be our point of view.
You quoted this verse as your proof, but you have to remember to see the uses of the word inside the Quran, plus the arabic meanings.
5110 Then will Allah say "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.
Apart from 'bird', Tair also means 'omen' as in 7131, 2747, 3619 and as 'actions' or 'good deeds or evil fate'-the register of deeds- as in 1713. Also it means 'destiny'or 'fortune'. So the word 'tair', doesn't only mean 'bird'. So it refers to here that the Jews at Jesus's time were deplorable and Jesus instilled new life in them, and raised them up from the 'mirre'. And before you say, they accused of him of mere magic in the last part of the verse, you have to remember that even the Quran was called magic. So the messages were called even magic by the deniers. So the verse is really like this
- And when God will say "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember the favours I bestowed on you and your mother, and reinforced you with divine grace that you spoke to men when in the cradle, and when in the prime of life; when I taught you the law and the judgement and the Torah and the Gospel; when you formed the state of your people's destiny out of mire and you breathed (a new spirit) into it, and they rose by My leave; when you healed the blind by My leave, and the leper ; when you put life into the dead by My will; and when I held back the children of Israel from you when you brought to them My signs, and the disbelievers among them said "Surely these are nothing but pure magic."
You underlined the term, by His leave, when using crossreference you see
- Are you going to compel the people to believe except by God's dispensation/leave? He puts doubt in (the minds of) those who do not think.
So the 'by God's leave' in 349 refers to that no one can force people into believing except if God will otherwise, and Jesus had gotten His leave...
As the state of the the Jews at the time of Jesus(and also before that and after that) clearly shows 'tair' refers to their destiny, plus keeping in mind God never changes His laws
- Degraded they shall live wheresoever they be unless they make an alliance with God and alliance with men, for they have incurred the anger of God, and misery overhangs them. That is because they denied the signs of God and killed the prophets unjustly, and rebelled, and went beyond the limit.
No changing in God's law, this includes in His Deen and all creation.
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So keep yourself exclusively on the true way, the creational law of God according to which He created man with the quality of choosing right or wrong. There is no altering/changing of God's creation. This is the supreme law. But most men do not understand.
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Such was the law of God among those before you; and you will not find any change in the law of God.
All 'miracles' are or misunderstood verses, or not known possibilities in sunnat'Allah.
See here for example the so-called virgin birth
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6087.msg94002#msg94002
Hope this helps...
Peace
I copied and sent to my mail this not to lose it...Thanks for the post..may Allah guide us all. By the way I cannot open the link for virgin birth...is there any other link useful?
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Whoops I posted in the wrong thread. Sorry