Quran and rationalism
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Thank you again for your intervention Ahmed
Allah blesses you...
Nabster
PS I find the Quran muhkamaat very easy to understand but sometimes hard to practice (apart from hudud).
However the verses about the end of the world and Jehannam are very scary.
The verses about creation of the heavens and the earth and description of Paradise are beautiful. -
Thank you again for your intervention Ahmed
no worries bro, you are a dear brother in Islam
Allah blesses you...
Likewise mate
PS I find the Quran muhkamaat very easy to understand but sometimes hard to practice (apart from hudud).
of course they are easy to understand and hard to implement, whoever think that it will be easy to implement is naive really
However the verses about the end of the world and Jehannam are very scary.
of course bro, because if you remember, Allah told us many times that THIS QURAN IS A WARNING, therefore Allah must tell us in advance if He is going to punish the wrong doers, He was so fair and just to tell us what is the punishment exactly in advance, imagine Hhe only told us that there will be punishment without going into details, then we get the shock of an eternal life when He surprises us with all these sort of horrific and humiliating punishment, this is fairness at its max bro.
now those wrong doers CAN'T have an excuse
The verses about creation of the heavens and the earth and description of Paradise are beautiful.
They are and most of the Quran verses are, I love the Quran mate, I spent as much as you studying it in its original language not the many confusing translations done by some language ignornats
take care
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According to me, nature can be said to be a book of God, as well as the Quran.
So, there cannot be contradictions between nature and the Quran.
However, it is possible that the knowledge we have of the laws of nature is imperfect or incorrect.Agree with u bro..
My approach is then to evaluate the reliability of the scientific knowledge (knowledge of the laws of the nature). For example, I will consider that a stick cannot physically move like a snake. On other issues, I may consider that the scientifically knowledge is unreliable.
And, when I estimate that, for an issue, the scientifically knowledge is reliable; I will endeavor to stick my interpretation of the Quran to it. In the case of the stick moving like a snake, I will see it to be metaphoric.Of course.. the stick / a pile of wood material can be moved 'like a snake'.
Superman can fly without wings..
Rabbit can talk... (ie Bugs Bunny)
Its all just a matter of 'illusion'.. human perception of things..Peace
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Salaam JM,
OK, how do you explain this tendancy of the sunnis to fabricate false miracles about the prophet ?
I was told in a thread here that the notion of shia 12 imams was "stolen" from persian. I also heard that the story of night ascencion was "stolen" from zoroastrian. So I guess that is how they fabricated the hadiths which is to justify what their fathers have been doing by "borrowing" the prophethood of Muhammad.
Another reason maybe to make an arab prophet superior to the prophets of children of Israel.
Regarding sunni and shia, they are only blindly following those fabrications.
IMHO, these false miracles have been fabricated by unbelievers who need that to have faith in God.
What should be the other possibilities, then ?
They should be mentioned in the Quran, isn?t it ?Another possibility would be the language aspect of quran. I am taught that the language of quran is eloquent which is "far above" the human language. Since I don't speak arabic, I cannot really know "how far above" but that is quite logical considering the challenge below
223 And if you doubt any part of what We have, bestowed from on high, step by step, upon Our servant , then produce a surah of similar merit, and call upon any other than God to bear witness for you -if what you say is true!
Allah knows best how the proofs were presented at that time.
Your ?Allah knows best? means to me that you don?t know what are really the proofs alluded to in the Quran.
I will now explain my own opinion. I may add that what I am going to advance is my current understanding, and it needs to be backed by further study of the Quran.
Why I choosed to believe in the Quran ?
IMHO, the Quran is a sign (ayat), a proof because of the meaning of its contents.
In the Quran, God devotes a lot of words to tell us about the fate of all nations. There is a common pattern to all theses stories
When a nation sticks to God?s laws (values, principles?), it prospers.
And, reciprocally, when a nation abandons God?s laws, it perishes (the nation can have success for some time, but it eventually perishes).The main message of the Quran to the people is the following believe in God, stick to God?s laws and you will have success in this life and in the hereafter.
There are also, in the Quran, many verses about life, nature, whose lesson is that the idols people worshipped, as well as the leaders people served, have no power, and that all power is in the hands of God.
The goal of God?s message was to put an end the chiefdom system (along with its tyranny, exploitation, ignorance?), and to give birth to a new way of life, where all men and women would be deemed equal. It planted the seed of what will eventually allow humanity to unite, and put an end to all forms of injustice.
Before studying Islam, I have read a lot about psychology, biology, and many other sciences, in order to understand the human nature. And I have came to the conclusion that God?s message, as it is put in the Quran, is what the human being needs to stop injustices, and achieve global unity and peace.
Why I consider the Quran is from God ?
I think that the belief in a just God is deeply ingrained in everyone?s mind (and this is confirmed by recent scientific studies). And I consider the Quran to be from God because the Quran does not promote the interests of some human group or sect ; on the contrary, the Quran sets all human being equals, and this is what is to be expected of a just god.
For example I cannot consider Christianity to be the message of God because it holds that the Christians, trough baptism, will be saved.
In the same way, Sunnis and Shiaism promote the superiority of their sect.Since God, by definition, should be just and equitable, a message where everyone will be judged according to one?s deeds is cogent with the conception of God that is inherent to our human nature.
Why I don?t believe in miracles ?
In the Quran, God states that he has bound the universe with laws, and that these laws are unchangeable.
Some examples
- A nation who does not stick to God?s message eventually perishes
- Someone who does good deeds will be rewarded in the hereafter
- When I drop an object, it falls
- All human beings are born from the sperm of their father in the womb of their mother
It includes all the laws of the universe, in particular the laws of nature (physical laws, the laws of human psychology, etc).
For me, the only true miracle is that these laws never change. The laws of time don?t change; the laws according to which the earth revolves around the sun don?t change?etc
I am aware that, if God willed so, he could do miracles (exceptional breaking of one of these laws). But he doesn?t, because a sound faith should not rely on this.
In the Quran, we see that only the unbelievers need miracles. The knowledgeable find God?s message self-evident. Thus, asking for miracles is no more than a sign of disbelief.
Since the message God revealed to his messengers was the same as the one he revealed to Muhammad, and since God refused to help Muhammad through miracles, God has undoubtedly refused to help Moses or Jesus do miracles too, and the accounts of Jesus or Moses deeds should be understood symbolically.
For example, the curing of the blind by Jesus may mean that, with God?s message, God has opened the eyes and showed God?s light to a disbeliever.Obviously, what I have exposed here needs further studying and elaboration.
More reading here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0
Hope it will help
Peace
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Salaam JM,
IMHO, these false miracles have been fabricated by unbelievers who need that to have faith in God.
But why did they fabricate those hadiths? I mean they believe that quran is from God. If they already believe quran is from God, then IMHO, there is no need to fabricate such hadiths. For example, I believe that quran is from God which means I accept that Muhammad is a messenger of Allah. Why do I need to fabricate hadiths to reprove again that Muhammad is God's messenger? I really don't understand your logic
Could you elaborate more bro JM?
Your ?Allah knows best? means to me that you don?t know what are really the proofs alluded to in the Quran.
Of course I don't know because I live in this century. But for sure the proofs must have been presented to people at that time.
I will now explain my own opinion. I may add that what I am going to advance is my current understanding, and it needs to be backed by further study of the Quran.
Why I choosed to believe in the Quran ?
IMHO, the Quran is a sign (ayat), a proof because of the meaning of its contents.
I basically agree but it needs further critical questions.
Three people come to you and each of them claim to be the messenger of Allah. They are A, B, and C.
A claim that the punishment for adultery is 50 lashes. B claim that the punishment for adultery is 25 lashes. C claim that the punishment for adultery is 5 lashes. The content of the message is basically the same (the adulterer have to be punished) but the severity differs. Which law will you implement as God's law without proofs?
In the Quran, God devotes a lot of words to tell us about the fate of all nations. There is a common pattern to all theses stories
When a nation sticks to God?s laws (values, principles?), it prospers.
And, reciprocally, when a nation abandons God?s laws, it perishes (the nation can have success for some time, but it eventually perishes).The main message of the Quran to the people is the following believe in God, stick to God?s laws and you will have success in this life and in the hereafter.
Which God's laws in my example will you stick to without proofs?
Why I don?t believe in miracles ?
I am aware that, if God willed so, he could do miracles (exceptional breaking of one of these laws). But he doesn?t, because a sound faith should not rely on this.Could you elaborate your understanding of "by Allah's leave" in 349 for example?
349 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message) "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
In the Quran, we see that only the unbelievers need miracles. The knowledgeable find God?s message self-evident. Thus, asking for miracles is no more than a sign of disbelief.
So do you mean verse 2260 means Abraham is a disbeliever or what?
2260 Behold! Abraham said "My Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead." He said "Dost thou not then believe?" He said "Yea! but to satisfy My own undertaking." He said "Take four birds; Tame them to turn to thee; put a portion of them on every hill and call to them They will come to thee (Flying) with speed. Then know that Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise."
Since the message God revealed to his messengers was the same as the one he revealed to Muhammad, and since God refused to help Muhammad through miracles, God has undoubtedly refused to help Moses or Jesus do miracles too, and the accounts of Jesus or Moses deeds should be understood symbolically.
So do you believe verse 250 is only symbolic?
250 And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.
Wassalam,
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Peace Andy,
You have to remember that you see what you are thaugt to see. Where in 2260 does it say he chopped the birds up? It says he put on every hill one bird, the group of 4 birds was divided, not the birds themselves. He learned that the birds came through just calling, just as we will come when God 'calls' us. Why did he had to train them, and then chop them up? He wanted to learn how the dead responded to God's call, and God showed him the example how trained birds responded to his call. Exactly like his question was. Also where in 250 does it say, the sea was splitted through a 'miracle'? Moses walked through at lowtide(see, 'splitting'?), and Pharoah was taken by the sudden hightide. Moses was helped to be there at just the right time, nothing more...
And here are some more misunderstood so-called 'miracles'
The healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a diseas that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Propably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth. The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144. It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences. The only Gospel that is in the so-calles Gospels, are Jesus his words, not his deeds, and by thus are the recordings not to be used for understanding and explaining the Quran, but the Quran must be used to explain the Gospel and Jesus's history.
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They are deaf, dumb and blind, and shall never return;
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Sick are their hearts, and God adds to their malady. For them is suffering for they lie.
The Quran uses diseases as metaphors. And the diseases that Jesus cured coincide directly with the metaphoricaly used diseases. This is in my eyes no coincedence. As i use the Quran to explain itself. -
So you place your trust in God. Certainly you stand on positive truth.
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You cannot make the dead to listen, or the deaf to hear the call, when they have turned their backs,
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Nor can you lead the blind when they have gone astray. You can make none hear except those who believe in Our signs and have come to peace and submission.
And you can see clearly in verse 81, that none will hear except the ones who will open up to the message. This what Jesus has done. One of Jesus used phrases is Hear who wants to hear! He made the blind see, the deaf hear, and the dead alive again through the truth he brought. You can see here clearly again that death is used metaphoricaly. As the Quran is one of the Kitab's, all the Books were healings, as the Quran
- If We had made it a discourse in an obscure tongue, they would have said "Why were its revelations not expounded distinctly? A foreign tongue and an Arab (audience)?" Say "For those who believe it is a guidance and a healing; but for those who do not believe it is a deafness in the ears, and a blindness. They are those one calls to from far away. Verily We gave Moses the Book; but they began to differ about it. If the Word of your Lord had not preceded it the matter would have been settled between them. They are still in doubt about it and uneasy.
Again it can be no coincidence that healing, deaf and blindless are used together. Jesus message made people heal from their deafness, blindness and even from their 'deaths'. I use the Quran to explain itself, what do you use? And i don't see Jesus curing literaly as an impossibility, it is that there is no real evidence for this from the Quran. Plus God says He doesn't changes His laws. He can, but He said He won't, so this should be our point of view.
You quoted this verse as your proof, but you have to remember to see the uses of the word inside the Quran, plus the arabic meanings.
5110 Then will Allah say "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.
Apart from 'bird', Tair also means 'omen' as in 7131, 2747, 3619 and as 'actions' or 'good deeds or evil fate'-the register of deeds- as in 1713. Also it means 'destiny'or 'fortune'. So the word 'tair', doesn't only mean 'bird'. So it refers to here that the Jews at Jesus's time were deplorable and Jesus instilled new life in them, and raised them up from the 'mirre'. And before you say, they accused of him of mere magic in the last part of the verse, you have to remember that even the Quran was called magic. So the messages were called even magic by the deniers. So the verse is really like this
- And when God will say "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember the favours I bestowed on you and your mother, and reinforced you with divine grace that you spoke to men when in the cradle, and when in the prime of life; when I taught you the law and the judgement and the Torah and the Gospel; when you formed the state of your people's destiny out of mire and you breathed (a new spirit) into it, and they rose by My leave; when you healed the blind by My leave, and the leper ; when you put life into the dead by My will; and when I held back the children of Israel from you when you brought to them My signs, and the disbelievers among them said "Surely these are nothing but pure magic."
You underlined the term, by His leave, when using crossreference you see
- Are you going to compel the people to believe except by God's dispensation/leave? He puts doubt in (the minds of) those who do not think.
So the 'by God's leave' in 349 refers to that no one can force people into believing except if God will otherwise, and Jesus had gotten His leave...
As the state of the the Jews at the time of Jesus(and also before that and after that) clearly shows 'tair' refers to their destiny, plus keeping in mind God never changes His laws
- Degraded they shall live wheresoever they be unless they make an alliance with God and alliance with men, for they have incurred the anger of God, and misery overhangs them. That is because they denied the signs of God and killed the prophets unjustly, and rebelled, and went beyond the limit.
No changing in God's law, this includes in His Deen and all creation.
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So keep yourself exclusively on the true way, the creational law of God according to which He created man with the quality of choosing right or wrong. There is no altering/changing of God's creation. This is the supreme law. But most men do not understand.
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Such was the law of God among those before you; and you will not find any change in the law of God.
All 'miracles' are or misunderstood verses, or not known possibilities in sunnat'Allah.
See here for example the so-called virgin birth
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6087.msg94002#msg94002
Hope this helps...
Peace
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Salaam JM,
IMHO, these false miracles have been fabricated by unbelievers who need that to have faith in God.
But why did they fabricate those hadiths? I mean they believe that quran is from God. If they already believe quran is from God, then IMHO, there is no need to fabricate such hadiths. For example, I believe that quran is from God which means I accept that Muhammad is a messenger of Allah. Why do I need to fabricate hadiths to reprove again that Muhammad is God's messenger? I really don't understand your logic
Could you elaborate more bro JM?
According to historical accounts, the early muslims have converted many people.
They may have fabricated these miracles to ease their enterprise.Your ?Allah knows best? means to me that you don?t know what are really the proofs alluded to in the Quran.
Of course I don't know because I live in this century. But for sure the proofs must have been presented to people at that time.
Such important matter should have been in the Quran.
I will now explain my own opinion. I may add that what I am going to advance is my current understanding, and it needs to be backed by further study of the Quran.
Why I choosed to believe in the Quran ?
IMHO, the Quran is a sign (ayat), a proof because of the meaning of its contents.
I basically agree but it needs further critical questions.
Three people come to you and each of them claim to be the messenger of Allah. They are A, B, and C.
A claim that the punishment for adultery is 50 lashes. B claim that the punishment for adultery is 25 lashes. C claim that the punishment for adultery is 5 lashes. The content of the message is basically the same (the adulterer have to be punished) but the severity differs. Which law will you implement as God's law without proofs?
What is important in God?s message is the NO to idolatry (with all its consequences, see http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0).
At his times, Muhammad was the only one to hold this discourse.
And since God?s message has eventually been preserved in the Quran, there is no need for new messengers.For your other questions, see AY?s excellent post.
You may also check the explanations of Muhammad Ali, Muhammad Asad, or Shabbir Ahmed (Links available here http//www.studyquran.org/EnglishTranslations.htm)Peace
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Salaam arnoldyasin,
You have to remember that you see what you are thaugt to see.
Not really bro, I was taught to take Shahih Bukhari as divine text ...but now?
Where in 2260 does it say he chopped the birds up? It says he put on every hill one bird, the group of 4 birds was divided, not the birds themselves. He learned that the birds came through just calling, just as we will come when God 'calls' us. Why did he had to train them, and then chop them up? He wanted to learn how the dead responded to God's call, and God showed him the example how trained birds responded to his call.
I think you missunderstood me here.
JM said "Thus, asking for miracles is no more than a sign of disbelief."
My understanding is asking for proofs (please don't be confused with the term miracle and proof here) is a sign of intelligence (you cannot just accept a claim that A is the messenger of Allah without proofs - and IMHO, if somebody comes to you and says "I am the messenger of Allah", I bet the first step you do would be asking for proofs). Accepting everything without asking is a sign of blind belief whereas rejecting proofs is a sign of disbelief. This is why when JM said that, I bring 2260.
Anyway, your explanation is new to me (not sure about the correctness though) ...thanks
Exactly like his question was. Also where in 250 does it say, the sea was splitted through a 'miracle'? Moses walked through at lowtide(see, 'splitting'?), and Pharoah was taken by the sudden hightide. Moses was helped to be there at just the right time, nothing more...
Again you missunderstood me.
JM said "Since the message God revealed to his messengers was the same as the one he revealed to Muhammad, and since God refused to help Muhammad through miracles, God has undoubtedly refused to help Moses or Jesus do miracles too, and the accounts of Jesus or Moses deeds should be understood symbolically."
My understanding is, their stories are real and not merely symbolic. So when I bring 250, I mean to show JM that Pharaoh was really drowned and not symbolically "drowned".
All 'miracles' are or misunderstood verses, or not known possibilities in sunnat'Allah.
Does that include code-19 miracle?
Wassalam,
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It includes all the laws of the universe, in particular the laws of nature (physical laws, the laws of human psychology, etc).
For me, the only true miracle is that these laws never change. The laws of time don?t change; the laws according to which the earth revolves around the sun don?t change?etc
I am aware that, if God willed so, he could do miracles (exceptional breaking of one of these laws). But he doesn?t, because a sound faith should not rely on this.
In the Quran, we see that only the unbelievers need miracles. The knowledgeable find God?s message self-evident. Thus, asking for miracles is no more than a sign of disbelief.
well said peace
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According to historical accounts, the early muslims have converted many people.
They may have fabricated these miracles to ease their enterprise.;D
I basically agree but it needs further critical questions.
Three people come to you and each of them claim to be the messenger of Allah. They are A, B, and C.
A claim that the punishment for adultery is 50 lashes. B claim that the punishment for adultery is 25 lashes. C claim that the punishment for adultery is 5 lashes. The content of the message is basically the same (the adulterer have to be punished) but the severity differs. Which law will you implement as God's law without proofs?
What is important in God?s message is the NO to idolatry (with all its consequences, see http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0).
At his times, Muhammad was the only one to hold this discourse.I am not sure whether you understood my question or not. My question has nothing to do with the era of prophet Muhammad. My question was logical. When three persons come to you, and each claims to be the messenger of Allah with different God's laws then which law will you implement as God's laws without proofs? Just imagine my question is in the era between Abraham and Moses to help you understand it.
And since God?s message has eventually been preserved in the Quran, there is no need for new messengers.
As far as I know, Allah never says that Muhammad is the last messenger.
Wassalam,
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There is no variation in God?s laws.
A human being has two hands. Some kids are born with more. Is it a variation in God?s general laws?
No.
Why?
We can explain the so-called exception by farther bottom-line rules of physics where the so-called regularity of two hands and the so-called exception of some deformities come under some same basic laws.
All sticks are sticks. One stick suddenly changed into a snake, then into a stick again. Why should it be considered as a variation in God?s laws? Physics may establish some farther bottom-line rules in future when one may see that this so-called variation is complying with some unchangeable basic laws.
We can not take a report of an unusual incident just because it is not impossible.
We can neither reject an incident reported by God in the Quran just because we yet can not explain it by our knowledge of general natural laws.
How can you be so sure that the incident is not a metaphorical story?
I do not know it either. I am not sure. Are you sure? If yes, how?
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Salaam
Greating to all, and sorry for my bad english.
I will now explain my own opinion. I may add that what I am going to advance is my current understanding, and it needs to be backed by further study of the Quran.
I hope that even if you are convinced about your current understanding, you leave the door open to new understanding for you in the futur, and other understanding for your brothers actually.
Before commenting your views I will sugest to read a booklet by Abu Hamid Al-Ghazaly with the title (faysalu at-tafriqa).
Even if the subject of the book is the takfir he actually went deeply discussing the different ways muslims could understand verses in the Books depending in their nature and ability (5 categories). He was definitly right, we Human differt. And this mean that if God send a message to All mankind it means that His message Must be untelligible and trusted with as many way as there is different type of minds (way of beliving = type d'assentiment, de croyance).
Some of us needs miracle. Some others don't.
Some are quite happy and confident in sticking to litteral meaning. Others need to go to metaphories.I have read what you wrote (in this topic) about the possibility or not of miracles for the messengers. I conclude that you do not believe in miracles (for any prophete) not because you have a rational (definitive) proof (you do not give a real one). You do so cause your personality, the way you belive Do Not need miracles. It does not fit with you. In fact, it hirts your Iman more than helping it. So be it. You're not alone in this case. You belive (dont need "miracle", but other rational things) and that's the goal. The Message fit with you ALSO !
But I hope you are aware that other people differt from you.
If they need to belive in another way than you, this is not a problem. The most important thing is that, as you do, they believe in God, and do their best to be helpfull and bestdoing to mankind (begining by theirselfs) to gain the hereafter.In the Quran, God devotes a lot of words to tell us about the fate of all nations. There is a common pattern to all theses stories
When a nation sticks to God?s laws (values, principles?), it prospers.
And, reciprocally, when a nation abandons God?s laws, it perishes (the nation can have success for some time, but it eventually perishes).The main message of the Quran to the people is the following believe in God, stick to God?s laws and you will have success in this life and in the hereafter.
Agree mainly. But I think that this main God's message (what you call God's law) is Al-Ihsaan = Good doing (?). If it is the case, it means that these God's laws are not really related with a scripture revelation. Nature (another bunch of God's ayah) and our souls direct us toward this good-doing.
Ibrahim found the path before receiving any revelation.
Saba2 queen and her kingdom seems to be mentioned in good terms in the quran.For example I cannot consider Christianity to be the message of God because it holds that the Christians, trough baptism, will be saved.
In the same way, Sunnis and Shiaism promote the superiority of their sect.But we know that Christianity, Sunnism and Shi3ism all of them originated from God's messages.
Why I don?t believe in miracles ?
I am aware that, if God willed so, he could do miracles (exceptional breaking of one of these laws). But he doesn?t, because a sound faith should not rely on this.
In the Quran, we see that only the unbelievers need miracles. The knowledgeable find God?s message self-evident. Thus, asking for miracles is no more than a sign of disbelief.Really do not agree. A sound faith for You have not to rely on tangible things like miracle. But for others it is not sure.
The case of Ibrahim and the need to (...li-yaTma2inna qalby...) is against your arguemtns.Since the message God revealed to his messengers was the same as the one he revealed to Muhammad, and
Again do not agree at all. It is impossible that the message to people living thounsend of years before Jesus have to be the same as the message to muhammed.
From the quran we can find many examples.
Sorry, I have to cointinue later.
Grearting
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peace Prashant Kumar,
God's law never changes. There are no variations in God's laws. That's the whole point.
Your thinking that a man with 3 arms is an example of a variation is wrong. How many arms a person has is determined by the laws of genetics which are unchanging. It is expected that there will be mutations and unusual examples once in a while, that's part of the law.
And this is proven by the fact that everyone has seen mutations in animals and humans, but NO ONE has ever seen a stick turn into a snake. -
Peace phoenix1.
There can be a singular instance of mutation and unusual example. There can even be such event unobserved by any one. Our observation and ability in explaining does not define reality or occurrence.
Even in the case of repeated occurrences, one may put forward the situation of the report of a lone observer of the first such instance. The reported person of the time of the reporter may just as well reject the report on the basis of ?no one has ever seen? and ?we have no scientific explanation of the event?.
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In the Quran, God devotes a lot of words to tell us about the fate of all nations. There is a common pattern to all theses stories
When a nation sticks to God?s laws (values, principles?), it prospers.
And, reciprocally, when a nation abandons God?s laws, it perishes (the nation can have success for some time, but it eventually perishes).The main message of the Quran to the people is the following believe in God, stick to God?s laws and you will have success in this life and in the hereafter.
Agree mainly. But I think that this main God's message (what you call God's law) is Al-Ihsaan = Good doing (?). If it is the case, it means that these God's laws are not really related with a scripture revelation. Nature (another bunch of God's ayah) and our souls direct us toward this good-doing.
Ibrahim found the path before receiving any revelation.
Saba2 queen and her kingdom seems to be mentioned in good terms in the quran.Peace Itinerant,
Welcome to the board, and thanks for your reply.
I don?t agree with that.
It may be true that we naturally incline to do good deeds, but it is also true that we naturally incline to be selfish.
IMHO, we need faith in God to be really good-doers.For example I cannot consider Christianity to be the message of God because it holds that the Christians, trough baptism, will be saved.
In the same way, Sunnis and Shiaism promote the superiority of their sect.But we know that Christianity, Sunnism and Shi3ism all of them originated from God's messages.
Indeed, it is God?s words, distorted by some people in order to serve their vested interests.
Why I don?t believe in miracles ?
I am aware that, if God willed so, he could do miracles (exceptional breaking of one of these laws). But he doesn?t, because a sound faith should not rely on this.
In the Quran, we see that only the unbelievers need miracles. The knowledgeable find God?s message self-evident. Thus, asking for miracles is no more than a sign of disbelief.Really do not agree. A sound faith for You have not to rely on tangible things like miracle. But for others it is not sure.
We have cited for the people in this Quran all kinds of examples, but most people insist upon disbelieving. They said, "We will not believe you unless you cause a spring to gush out of the ground. "Or unless you own a garden of date palms and grapes, with rivers running through it. "Or unless you cause masses from the sky, as you claimed, to fall on us. Or unless you bring GOD and the angels before our eyes. "Or unless you own a luxurious mansion, or unless you climb into the sky. Even if you do climb, we will not believe unless you bring a book that we can read." Say, "Glory be to my Lord. Am I any more than a human messenger?" What prevented the people from believing when the guidance came to them is their saying, "Did GOD send a human being as a messenger?" Say, "If the earth were inhabited by angels, we would have sent down to them from the sky an angel messenger." Say, "GOD suffices as a witness between me and you. He is fully Cognizant of His worshipers, Seer."
Those who disbelieve would say, "If only a miracle could come down to him from his Lord (we would believe)." Say, "GOD sends astray whomever He wills, and guides to Him only those who obey." They are the ones whose hearts rejoice in remembering GOD. Absolutely, by remembering GOD, the hearts rejoice.
Their brethren ceaselessly entice them to go astray. If you do not produce a miracle that they demand, they say, "Why not ask for it?" Say, "I simply follow what is revealed to me from my Lord." These are enlightenments from your Lord, and guidance, and mercy for people who believe.
Say, "This is my path I invite to GOD, on the basis of a clear proof, and so do those who follow me. GOD be glorified. I am not an idol worshiper."
Obviously, only the unbelievers request miracles to the prophet. They are unsatisfied by the message of the Quran, whereas this message is enough for people prone to believe. This shows us that there should be no need to believe in supernatural events to believe in God. The fact God always refused to help the prophet through miracles proves to me that, in God?s way, a sound faith should not rely on miracles. It should rather rely on a deep understanding of God's message.
How do you understand the above verses ?
The case of Ibrahim and the need to (...li-yaTma2inna qalby...) is against your arguemtns.
As you may know, I don?t agree with the traditional rendering of this verse ().
See http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch002-e.pdfSince the message God revealed to his messengers was the same as the one he revealed to Muhammad, and
Again do not agree at all. It is impossible that the message to people living thounsend of years before Jesus have to be the same as the message to muhammed.
He has decreed for you the same system He ordained for Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We ordained for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus ?You shall uphold this system, and do not divide in it.?
In case you have any dispute about that, might you open a new thread ?
Peace
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According to historical accounts, the early muslims have converted many people.
They may have fabricated these miracles to ease their enterprise.;D
I basically agree but it needs further critical questions.
Three people come to you and each of them claim to be the messenger of Allah. They are A, B, and C.
A claim that the punishment for adultery is 50 lashes. B claim that the punishment for adultery is 25 lashes. C claim that the punishment for adultery is 5 lashes. The content of the message is basically the same (the adulterer have to be punished) but the severity differs. Which law will you implement as God's law without proofs?
What is important in God?s message is the NO to idolatry (with all its consequences, see http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0).
At his times, Muhammad was the only one to hold this discourse.I am not sure whether you understood my question or not. My question has nothing to do with the era of prophet Muhammad. My question was logical. When three persons come to you, and each claims to be the messenger of Allah with different God's laws then which law will you implement as God's laws without proofs? Just imagine my question is in the era between Abraham and Moses to help you understand it.
I have understood your question, but I cannot respond to it directly, because, to me, the scenario you describe is impossible.
The number of lashes in the punishment for adultery is not the criterion upon which we should judge whether someone is a messenger of God or not.
And since God?s message has eventually been preserved in the Quran, there is no need for new messengers.
As far as I know, Allah never says that Muhammad is the last messenger.
Wassalam,
In my current opinion, all messengers (rasool) of God were also prophets (nabi), and reciprocally.
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4275.0Anyway, I do not need new messengers. The Quran is sufficient to me.
Peace
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'Rationalism in the Quran' at http//sasnoddy.com/timeless_articles/timeless_article1.htm is worth the read for all out there from an unknown thinker of this time ....
Thank you guest for the link, a very good read.
I sometimes wonder how are we, who accepted Islam and read the Quran in tranbslations going to be rightly guided?... hmm ???PEACE
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There are currently disputes between some members of the forum because of different hermeneutical approaches.
To take an example, if, in the Quran, we read that a stick can move like a snake, there will be 2 reactions
- Some of us will consider it is not physically possible (against physical laws), and will consider it metaphoric
- Some of us will consider that, if God has told so, then it has to be physically possible, even though the physical laws, as we know them today, do not allow it.
There will never be agreements between these 2 kinds of people unless they adopt the same hermeneutical approach.
Here is my stance on the issue.
According to me, nature can be said to be a book of God, as well as the Quran. So, there cannot be contradictions between nature and the Quran.
However, it is possible that the knowledge we have of the laws of nature is imperfect or incorrect.My approach is then to evaluate the reliability of the scientific knowledge (knowledge of the laws of the nature). For example, I will consider that a stick cannot physically move like a snake. On other issues, I may consider that the scientifically knowledge is unreliable.
And, when I estimate that, for an issue, the scientifically knowledge is reliable; I will endeavor to stick my interpretation of the Quran to it. In the case of the stick moving like a snake, I will see it to be metaphoric.I am aware that I can be wrong, but I consider that the likelihood for my interpretation to be wrong is lower while sticking to the scientific knowledge than while sticking to traditional knowledge.
Looking forward for your opinions?
Peace
From the reading of the verses regarding the issue you mentioned about the stick, it seems pretty straight forward. The verses tell us that the disbelievers believed it to be majic, which means they couldn't believe what they were seeing. Or they refused to believe what they saw. However only a very small percentage of mankind witnessed these events and it never made any bearing to whether a person accepted the prophets or not. Faith is in the heart and not eyes.
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The verses tell us that the disbelievers believed it to be majic,
Hi Bigmo,
Could you please tell me which verses you are talking about ?
Peace