Your Thoughts on Secular Governments?
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Yes, secular is for the best. Evidence
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
However
3022 And from His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your tongues and your colors. In that are signs for the world.
There will be those that choose other forms of government--and this is also okay. Spinoza argued a good argument for his day, maybe even for today.
Secular humanists have plenty of good things to say, also.
AQ sets the framework for many things, but it is not a cookbook and a car repair manual and all manuals. For things outside of the Deen, it is appropriate to seek wisdom where it can be found.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Actually it says no compulsion in religion
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And OP do you really think America's government cares about the people?
All they care is about money. They are greedy bastards.
If they cared about people, they wouldn't hide the cure of the cancer just to make money out of useless therapies.
If governments cared about people, they wouldn't exist, simple as that. -
Well secularism is originally the result of Europe breaking away from the rule of the Catholic Church, because the rule of the Church had many of the same abuses as Sharia governments in the Middle East. The Church thinks it's Bishops, Priests, etc. speak and act for God.
After Roman empire adopted "Christianism" as the sole / only official religion within the empire, the abuse of lower class people through proxies of dogmatic concept of religion started... within it's territory..
To keep the long story short; After the fall of Roman empire , some 'smart people' in Rome was trying to impose what's left of Rome on all of it's colonies through the power / authority of the Church / Religion centralized in Rome.
You can say that it's more authoritarian concept with many similarities with today "British Commonwealth" / "Commonwealth of Nations".
"Secularism" as thus is the result of "Ex western roman colonies" of breaking away from the rule of the catholic church in Rome..
The kings went along with this because it helped keep the masses in line, until Henry VIII wasn't satisfied with church rule, because the Bible says the king is sovereign in his own realm. That the king answers to God. King David or Prophet David as you would know him, being an example.
In order to do that the King invented his own Church..
Still not yet a 'secularism' per se...
It's a coup / takeover of power performed by a local king from centralized authority in Rome...The lower class people however still continuously fooled by a series of new dogmatic priest which takes order from the local King and not from Rome.
The abuses of Church rule brought about secularism and the Protestant Reformation. Yes Protestants are Christians, but we put more emphasis on the Bible and on reason then Roman Catholicism does.
I think secularism is best, because if a person is going to approach God, it should never be forced.The catholics continuously abuses anyone who they considered as a threat to their hegemony...
Ranging from Orthodox, Pagans, "Freethinkers" , Moslems (The political entity) etc..Freedom of thinking and freedom of beliefs was continuously suppressed and the church hold centralized authority to decide what's right, what's wrong, what people should be thinking about and what people should not be thinking about.
The abuse of church triggered many movements which oppose it.. some of them might not be 'secular' per se.. yet merely a change of authority to "decide what's right, what's wrong, what people should be thinking about and what people should not be thinking about" from the church to some other bodies such as "Political Party" within the Nazis and The Communists case , Kings/Sultans such as in Henry, Ottoman or Louis case, Militarymen such as in Napoleon and Attaturk case and also from centralized Kings/Sultans to local Kings, Sultans and Dictators such as in Ottoman Empire and it's ex colonies case (Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Libya etc..). Some of them still linger on up until today..
Salam / Peace
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Actually it says no compulsion in religion
It doesn't say religion it say dien
La Ikraha Fi Al-Dien..
There are no enforcement/compulsion in Attitude/Judgement/Opinion/Belief/View (On something)..There are no 'conception' of Religion let alone Organized Religion within Quran..
All religions are man made..Salam / Peace
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It doesn't say religion it say dien
La Ikraha Fi Al-Dien..
There are no enforcement/compulsion in Attitude/Judgement/Opinion/Belief/View (On something)..There are no 'conception' of Religion let alone Organized Religion within Quran..
All religions are man made..Salam / Peace
Oh ok
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Do I think America's government is perfect Kaio or perfectly benevolent? Nah. I know America has problems, but its way better then a totalitarian religious theocracy like the Middle East corrupting religion with politics, and claiming to speak for God.
America's government does try to look out for the rights and worth of all, in spite of it's problems, and yes, greed is part of it.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Haters gonna hate. !
@Any who trash-talks America Do you live here? If so, you can leave for somewhere else that DOES suit you if you don't like it. If you don't live here, it is entirely possible that you are "darkening counsel without knowledge." Walk up and down the earth a little, first! ;D
Earth is not paradise, and no human solution is divine. This should not be a shocking revelation. Complaining about a problem without contributing to a solution is at best futile and at worst hypocritical.
Would one define the situation of Somalia as optimal? This is what happens when there is no government. Move there if that is the system one desires.
One can live or move to where the situation suits them--but there is no need to attack the systems of others.
497 Those whose lives are terminated by the angels, while they had wronged themselves; they said "What situation were you in?" They said "We were oppressed on the earth." They said "Was the earth of God not wide enough that you could emigrate in it?" To these their abode will be Hell; what a miserable destiny!
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Do I think America's government is perfect Kaio or perfectly benevolent? Nah. I know America has problems, but its way better then a totalitarian religious theocracy like the Middle East corrupting religion with politics, and claiming to speak for God.
America's government does try to look out for the rights and worth of all, in spite of it's problems, and yes, greed is part of it.
Being better than Middle East is nothing much you know, since Middle East is terrible.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Haters gonna hate. !
@Any who trash-talks America Do you live here? If so, you can leave for somewhere else that DOES suit you if you don't like it. If you don't live here, it is entirely possible that you are "darkening counsel without knowledge." Walk up and down the earth a little, first! ;D
Earth is not paradise, and no human solution is divine. This should not be a shocking revelation. Complaining about a problem without contributing to a solution is at best futile and at worst hypocritical.
Would one define the situation of Somalia as optimal? This is what happens when there is no government. Move there if that is the system one desires.
One can live or move to where the situation suits them--but there is no need to attack the systems of others.
497 Those whose lives are terminated by the angels, while they had wronged themselves; they said "What situation were you in?" They said "We were oppressed on the earth." They said "Was the earth of God not wide enough that you could emigrate in it?" To these their abode will be Hell; what a miserable destiny!
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Yes there is. A muslim should not stand having sovereigns other than Allah.
You're just being a nationalist, which is bad, since nations should not exist.
Neither should any country at all.The first verse is totally irrelevant.
The second is badly translated, qawm translates to "race" not people.
What's wrong about America is it's society, and it's majority. Pretty much it's downright terrible. -
Would one define the situation of Somalia as optimal? This is what happens when there is no government. Move there if that is the system one desires.
This is a very good example of strawman. It is very sad to see people who claim to be 'muslims' and 'believers' to behave this way; you are unknowingly exposing yourself.
Salaam.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Yes there is. A muslim should not stand having sovereigns other than Allah.
You're just being a nationalist, which is bad, since nations should not exist.
Neither should any country at all.The first verse is totally irrelevant.
The second is badly translated, qawm translates to "race" not people.
What's wrong about America is it's society, and it's majority. Pretty much it's downright terrible.Circular argument is circular. Also, government is shown to have existed in AQ. Organization for the purposes of bettering self and others is not a bad thing; not is it associating partners with ALLAH. There is a reason why anarchy does not prevail.
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
It is not just about race; it is about people--people as individuals and people as collectives.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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No, no and no.
Not governments
Not AnarchySimply Allah's law
And verse speaks about not ridiculing races. Women not ridiculing other women and the bolded part that was no reason to be bolded.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
This is a very good example of strawman. It is very sad to see people who claim to be 'muslims' and 'believers' to behave this way; you are unknowingly exposing yourself.
Salaam.
How is this a strawman? I did not judge Somalia or Somalians--I posed a question.
It is true that Somalia is a country without a central government. For those who claim that government is wrong somehow, Somalia would seem to appeal as an abode.
The world shows us that areas without government are not actually the same as romanticized and ideallized conceptions of the imagination! We live in the real world.
Name one area of the world where not having government has been successful. Even "primitive" people have tribes.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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BRITAIN! They had the Natural Law, which is Allah's law!
Here's one!Governments suck. Get over it. Being proud of your country just because you live in it is downright ridiculous
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Greetings and Peace, all group
How is this a strawman? I did not judge Somalia or Somalians--I posed a question.
It is true that Somalia is a country without a central government. For those who claim that government is wrong somehow, Somalia would seem to appeal as an abode.
The world shows us that areas without government are not actually the same as romanticized and ideallized conceptions of the imagination! We live in the real world.
Name one area of the world where not having government has been successful. Even "primitive" people have tribes.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Kaiokenred believes in the concept of a polycentric community - a natural law, a 'human energy' economic system and a complete allodial right of use. To ridicule his ideas, you give the example of Somalia, of which the system has no relation whatsoever with the one Kaiokenred defends.
Because you think Somalia has no leading groups (and in this aspect, you feel that it connects to the stateless system Kaiokenred is preaching), you allow yourself to build a connection between Kaiokenred's ideal system with the present situation of Somalia. This is called straw man, you are creating ''the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet utterly unequivalent proposition''.
Before comparing two ideas or situations, whatever they may be, one should study them both thoroughly or just completely abstain from debating, because it leads to nothing.
Salaam.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
No, no and no.
Not governments
Not AnarchySimply Allah's law
And verse speaks about not ridiculing races. Women not ridiculing other women and the bolded part that was no reason to be bolded.
Example of government in AQ
2247 And their prophet said to them "GOD has sent Saul to you as a king." They said "How can he have the kingship when we are more deserving than him, and he has not been given an abundance of wealth?" He said "GOD has chosen him over you and increased him in knowledge and physical stature." GOD grants His sovereignty to whom He chooses; and GOD is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.
Surely, you weren't claiming that government was forbidden, were you? )
AQ does contain a system/Deen, and anything that operates within that system is lawful. Some of the things that operate within the system work better than other things, and some work better in different times and places than others.
It was bolded for those with eyes to see and minds to reason.
Can you state ALLAH's Law as it pertains to organization of people? Links to somebody else's Kool-Aid are not desired.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Kaiokenred believes in the concept of a polycentric community - a natural law, a 'human energy' economic system and a complete allodial right of use. To ridicule his ideas, you give the example of Somalia, of which the system has no relation whatsoever with the one Kaiokenred defends.
Because you think Somalia has no leading groups (and in this aspect, you feel that it connects to the stateless system Kaiokenred is preaching), you allow yourself to build a connection between Kaiokenred's ideal system with the present situation of Somalia. This is called straw man, you are creating ''the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet utterly unequivalent proposition''.
Before comparing two ideas or situations, whatever they may be, one should study them both thoroughly or just completely abstain from debating, because it leads to nothing.
Salaam.
I contrasted his idea with reality--not "ridicule" his ideas (loaded language much? ). Perchance he will provide evidence of success of his idealized system in the real world.
Further, in debunking my alleged strawman, you resorted to ad hominem.
Remove the beam from your own eye before attempting to remove the speck from mine.
Somalia is an extreme example, but it is one grounded in reality.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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You know Abdul funny that the Bible doesn't describe Saul as an entirely good guy. It says he later went astray. It also says that he was made king because the people rejected the Judges to rule over them because the other nations had kings.
Samuel told them that because of this the kings would steal their cattle, draft their sons for wars, etc. God granted their request though.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
You know Abdul funny that the Bible doesn't describe Saul as an entirely good guy. It says he later went astray. It also says that he was made king because the people rejected the Judges to rule over them because the other nations had kings.
Samuel told them that because of this the kings would steal their cattle, draft their sons for wars, etc. God granted their request though.
Be that as it may, the main point was that government is not disallowed and was in fact sanctioned.
Another example from AQ
2251 So they defeated them with the permission of GOD, and David killed Goliath, and GOD gave him the kingship and the wisdom and taught him what he wished. And if it were not for GOD defending the people against themselves, then the earth would have long been corrupted; but GOD has bestowed grace upon the worlds.
On the subpoint of Saul
2216 Warfare has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; and GOD knows while you do not know.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Yes I agree government is not disallowed. I would think God would see a government that tries to guarantee protection and rights for all as very righteous. I'm not saying America, Canada, etc. does this perfectly.