Your Thoughts on Secular Governments?
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
Haters gonna hate. !
@Any who trash-talks America Do you live here? If so, you can leave for somewhere else that DOES suit you if you don't like it. If you don't live here, it is entirely possible that you are "darkening counsel without knowledge." Walk up and down the earth a little, first! ;D
Earth is not paradise, and no human solution is divine. This should not be a shocking revelation. Complaining about a problem without contributing to a solution is at best futile and at worst hypocritical.
Would one define the situation of Somalia as optimal? This is what happens when there is no government. Move there if that is the system one desires.
One can live or move to where the situation suits them--but there is no need to attack the systems of others.
497 Those whose lives are terminated by the angels, while they had wronged themselves; they said "What situation were you in?" They said "We were oppressed on the earth." They said "Was the earth of God not wide enough that you could emigrate in it?" To these their abode will be Hell; what a miserable destiny!
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Yes there is. A muslim should not stand having sovereigns other than Allah.
You're just being a nationalist, which is bad, since nations should not exist.
Neither should any country at all.The first verse is totally irrelevant.
The second is badly translated, qawm translates to "race" not people.
What's wrong about America is it's society, and it's majority. Pretty much it's downright terrible. -
Would one define the situation of Somalia as optimal? This is what happens when there is no government. Move there if that is the system one desires.
This is a very good example of strawman. It is very sad to see people who claim to be 'muslims' and 'believers' to behave this way; you are unknowingly exposing yourself.
Salaam.
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
Yes there is. A muslim should not stand having sovereigns other than Allah.
You're just being a nationalist, which is bad, since nations should not exist.
Neither should any country at all.The first verse is totally irrelevant.
The second is badly translated, qawm translates to "race" not people.
What's wrong about America is it's society, and it's majority. Pretty much it's downright terrible.Circular argument is circular. Also, government is shown to have existed in AQ. Organization for the purposes of bettering self and others is not a bad thing; not is it associating partners with ALLAH. There is a reason why anarchy does not prevail.
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
It is not just about race; it is about people--people as individuals and people as collectives.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
-
No, no and no.
Not governments
Not AnarchySimply Allah's law
And verse speaks about not ridiculing races. Women not ridiculing other women and the bolded part that was no reason to be bolded.
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
This is a very good example of strawman. It is very sad to see people who claim to be 'muslims' and 'believers' to behave this way; you are unknowingly exposing yourself.
Salaam.
How is this a strawman? I did not judge Somalia or Somalians--I posed a question.
It is true that Somalia is a country without a central government. For those who claim that government is wrong somehow, Somalia would seem to appeal as an abode.
The world shows us that areas without government are not actually the same as romanticized and ideallized conceptions of the imagination! We live in the real world.
Name one area of the world where not having government has been successful. Even "primitive" people have tribes.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
-
BRITAIN! They had the Natural Law, which is Allah's law!
Here's one!Governments suck. Get over it. Being proud of your country just because you live in it is downright ridiculous
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
How is this a strawman? I did not judge Somalia or Somalians--I posed a question.
It is true that Somalia is a country without a central government. For those who claim that government is wrong somehow, Somalia would seem to appeal as an abode.
The world shows us that areas without government are not actually the same as romanticized and ideallized conceptions of the imagination! We live in the real world.
Name one area of the world where not having government has been successful. Even "primitive" people have tribes.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Kaiokenred believes in the concept of a polycentric community - a natural law, a 'human energy' economic system and a complete allodial right of use. To ridicule his ideas, you give the example of Somalia, of which the system has no relation whatsoever with the one Kaiokenred defends.
Because you think Somalia has no leading groups (and in this aspect, you feel that it connects to the stateless system Kaiokenred is preaching), you allow yourself to build a connection between Kaiokenred's ideal system with the present situation of Somalia. This is called straw man, you are creating ''the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet utterly unequivalent proposition''.
Before comparing two ideas or situations, whatever they may be, one should study them both thoroughly or just completely abstain from debating, because it leads to nothing.
Salaam.
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
No, no and no.
Not governments
Not AnarchySimply Allah's law
And verse speaks about not ridiculing races. Women not ridiculing other women and the bolded part that was no reason to be bolded.
Example of government in AQ
2247 And their prophet said to them "GOD has sent Saul to you as a king." They said "How can he have the kingship when we are more deserving than him, and he has not been given an abundance of wealth?" He said "GOD has chosen him over you and increased him in knowledge and physical stature." GOD grants His sovereignty to whom He chooses; and GOD is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.
Surely, you weren't claiming that government was forbidden, were you? )
AQ does contain a system/Deen, and anything that operates within that system is lawful. Some of the things that operate within the system work better than other things, and some work better in different times and places than others.
It was bolded for those with eyes to see and minds to reason.
Can you state ALLAH's Law as it pertains to organization of people? Links to somebody else's Kool-Aid are not desired.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
Kaiokenred believes in the concept of a polycentric community - a natural law, a 'human energy' economic system and a complete allodial right of use. To ridicule his ideas, you give the example of Somalia, of which the system has no relation whatsoever with the one Kaiokenred defends.
Because you think Somalia has no leading groups (and in this aspect, you feel that it connects to the stateless system Kaiokenred is preaching), you allow yourself to build a connection between Kaiokenred's ideal system with the present situation of Somalia. This is called straw man, you are creating ''the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet utterly unequivalent proposition''.
Before comparing two ideas or situations, whatever they may be, one should study them both thoroughly or just completely abstain from debating, because it leads to nothing.
Salaam.
I contrasted his idea with reality--not "ridicule" his ideas (loaded language much? ). Perchance he will provide evidence of success of his idealized system in the real world.
Further, in debunking my alleged strawman, you resorted to ad hominem.
Remove the beam from your own eye before attempting to remove the speck from mine.
Somalia is an extreme example, but it is one grounded in reality.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
-
You know Abdul funny that the Bible doesn't describe Saul as an entirely good guy. It says he later went astray. It also says that he was made king because the people rejected the Judges to rule over them because the other nations had kings.
Samuel told them that because of this the kings would steal their cattle, draft their sons for wars, etc. God granted their request though.
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
You know Abdul funny that the Bible doesn't describe Saul as an entirely good guy. It says he later went astray. It also says that he was made king because the people rejected the Judges to rule over them because the other nations had kings.
Samuel told them that because of this the kings would steal their cattle, draft their sons for wars, etc. God granted their request though.
Be that as it may, the main point was that government is not disallowed and was in fact sanctioned.
Another example from AQ
2251 So they defeated them with the permission of GOD, and David killed Goliath, and GOD gave him the kingship and the wisdom and taught him what he wished. And if it were not for GOD defending the people against themselves, then the earth would have long been corrupted; but GOD has bestowed grace upon the worlds.
On the subpoint of Saul
2216 Warfare has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; and GOD knows while you do not know.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
-
Yes I agree government is not disallowed. I would think God would see a government that tries to guarantee protection and rights for all as very righteous. I'm not saying America, Canada, etc. does this perfectly.
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
I contrasted his idea with reality--not "ridicule" his ideas (loaded language much? ). Perchance he will provide evidence of success of his idealized system in the real world.
Further, in debunking my alleged strawman, you resorted to ad hominem.
Remove the beam from your own eye before attempting to remove the speck from mine.
Somalia is an extreme example, but it is one grounded in reality.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Forget it, you understand neither strawman nor argumentum ad hominem - when it is sophism and when it is not - nor the present system of Somalia and how it came about, nor Kaikoerend's ideal system. In sum, you like last word and not true debate.
giveup
-
Kaiokenred believes in the concept of a polycentric community - a natural law, a 'human energy' economic system and a complete allodial right of use. To ridicule his ideas, you give the example of Somalia, of which the system has no relation whatsoever with the one Kaiokenred defends.
This is found in the Quran where?
-
This is found in the Quran where?
If it is a real question rather than an ironic statement disguised as one, then you will be interested to read the following fully
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/68/98/
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/167/202/
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/162/197/
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/163/198/ -
You mean to say I have to read reams of someone else's opinions for you to show me where you found something you support in the Quran?
Why not just give the verses and I will look in the Quran and read it for myself and decide the use and context of the verses given? Why not just give the verses you based your view on?
-
You mean to say I have to read reams of someone else's opinions for you to show me where you found something you support in the Quran?
Why not just give the verses and I will look in the Quran and read it for myself and decide the use and context of the verses given? Why not just give the verses you based your view on?
It is very unfortunate to see more and more people seeking defiance instead of peaceful discussion. If you were to click simply on the first link I provided you, you would have made an astonishing, law-defying discovery The verses you so deeply want to ponder on are on the first paragraph.
I gave you links where the appropriated verses are detailed, you are free to study them alone and to ignore the ramblings of the so-very mad, deluded and evil lunatic who, to make fit his own agenda, decided to create a website where he'd write essays filled with logical fallacies, to manipulate men for his own profit and by-so, slowly conquer the world and then the entire universe.
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
Example of government in AQ
2247 And their prophet said to them "GOD has sent Saul to you as a king." They said "How can he have the kingship when we are more deserving than him, and he has not been given an abundance of wealth?" He said "GOD has chosen him over you and increased him in knowledge and physical stature." GOD grants His sovereignty to whom He chooses; and GOD is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.
Surely, you weren't claiming that government was forbidden, were you? )
AQ does contain a system/Deen, and anything that operates within that system is lawful. Some of the things that operate within the system work better than other things, and some work better in different times and places than others.
It was bolded for those with eyes to see and minds to reason.
Can you state ALLAH's Law as it pertains to organization of people? Links to somebody else's Kool-Aid are not desired.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Governments aren't forbidden in Islam, you know why? Because Islam and governments can't co-exist.
You have to do more than stating a verse from a changed Quran with corrupted translations to make me disagree with my own common sense. -
You know Abdul funny that the Bible doesn't describe Saul as an entirely good guy. It says he later went astray. It also says that he was made king because the people rejected the Judges to rule over them because the other nations had kings.
Samuel told them that because of this the kings would steal their cattle, draft their sons for wars, etc. God granted their request though.
It's interesting you mentioned "Samuel"...
Early Israelites doesn't have any King/Sultan/Ruler/Dictator/Warlord... before Samuel...What they had were only administrators and judges...