Your Thoughts on Secular Governments?
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Kaiokenred believes in the concept of a polycentric community - a natural law, a 'human energy' economic system and a complete allodial right of use. To ridicule his ideas, you give the example of Somalia, of which the system has no relation whatsoever with the one Kaiokenred defends.
Because you think Somalia has no leading groups (and in this aspect, you feel that it connects to the stateless system Kaiokenred is preaching), you allow yourself to build a connection between Kaiokenred's ideal system with the present situation of Somalia. This is called straw man, you are creating ''the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet utterly unequivalent proposition''.
Before comparing two ideas or situations, whatever they may be, one should study them both thoroughly or just completely abstain from debating, because it leads to nothing.
Salaam.
I contrasted his idea with reality--not "ridicule" his ideas (loaded language much? ). Perchance he will provide evidence of success of his idealized system in the real world.
Further, in debunking my alleged strawman, you resorted to ad hominem.
Remove the beam from your own eye before attempting to remove the speck from mine.
Somalia is an extreme example, but it is one grounded in reality.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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You know Abdul funny that the Bible doesn't describe Saul as an entirely good guy. It says he later went astray. It also says that he was made king because the people rejected the Judges to rule over them because the other nations had kings.
Samuel told them that because of this the kings would steal their cattle, draft their sons for wars, etc. God granted their request though.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
You know Abdul funny that the Bible doesn't describe Saul as an entirely good guy. It says he later went astray. It also says that he was made king because the people rejected the Judges to rule over them because the other nations had kings.
Samuel told them that because of this the kings would steal their cattle, draft their sons for wars, etc. God granted their request though.
Be that as it may, the main point was that government is not disallowed and was in fact sanctioned.
Another example from AQ
2251 So they defeated them with the permission of GOD, and David killed Goliath, and GOD gave him the kingship and the wisdom and taught him what he wished. And if it were not for GOD defending the people against themselves, then the earth would have long been corrupted; but GOD has bestowed grace upon the worlds.
On the subpoint of Saul
2216 Warfare has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; and GOD knows while you do not know.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Yes I agree government is not disallowed. I would think God would see a government that tries to guarantee protection and rights for all as very righteous. I'm not saying America, Canada, etc. does this perfectly.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
I contrasted his idea with reality--not "ridicule" his ideas (loaded language much? ). Perchance he will provide evidence of success of his idealized system in the real world.
Further, in debunking my alleged strawman, you resorted to ad hominem.
Remove the beam from your own eye before attempting to remove the speck from mine.
Somalia is an extreme example, but it is one grounded in reality.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Forget it, you understand neither strawman nor argumentum ad hominem - when it is sophism and when it is not - nor the present system of Somalia and how it came about, nor Kaikoerend's ideal system. In sum, you like last word and not true debate.
giveup
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Kaiokenred believes in the concept of a polycentric community - a natural law, a 'human energy' economic system and a complete allodial right of use. To ridicule his ideas, you give the example of Somalia, of which the system has no relation whatsoever with the one Kaiokenred defends.
This is found in the Quran where?
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This is found in the Quran where?
If it is a real question rather than an ironic statement disguised as one, then you will be interested to read the following fully
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/68/98/
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/167/202/
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/162/197/
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/163/198/ -
You mean to say I have to read reams of someone else's opinions for you to show me where you found something you support in the Quran?
Why not just give the verses and I will look in the Quran and read it for myself and decide the use and context of the verses given? Why not just give the verses you based your view on?
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You mean to say I have to read reams of someone else's opinions for you to show me where you found something you support in the Quran?
Why not just give the verses and I will look in the Quran and read it for myself and decide the use and context of the verses given? Why not just give the verses you based your view on?
It is very unfortunate to see more and more people seeking defiance instead of peaceful discussion. If you were to click simply on the first link I provided you, you would have made an astonishing, law-defying discovery The verses you so deeply want to ponder on are on the first paragraph.
I gave you links where the appropriated verses are detailed, you are free to study them alone and to ignore the ramblings of the so-very mad, deluded and evil lunatic who, to make fit his own agenda, decided to create a website where he'd write essays filled with logical fallacies, to manipulate men for his own profit and by-so, slowly conquer the world and then the entire universe.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Example of government in AQ
2247 And their prophet said to them "GOD has sent Saul to you as a king." They said "How can he have the kingship when we are more deserving than him, and he has not been given an abundance of wealth?" He said "GOD has chosen him over you and increased him in knowledge and physical stature." GOD grants His sovereignty to whom He chooses; and GOD is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.
Surely, you weren't claiming that government was forbidden, were you? )
AQ does contain a system/Deen, and anything that operates within that system is lawful. Some of the things that operate within the system work better than other things, and some work better in different times and places than others.
It was bolded for those with eyes to see and minds to reason.
Can you state ALLAH's Law as it pertains to organization of people? Links to somebody else's Kool-Aid are not desired.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Governments aren't forbidden in Islam, you know why? Because Islam and governments can't co-exist.
You have to do more than stating a verse from a changed Quran with corrupted translations to make me disagree with my own common sense. -
You know Abdul funny that the Bible doesn't describe Saul as an entirely good guy. It says he later went astray. It also says that he was made king because the people rejected the Judges to rule over them because the other nations had kings.
Samuel told them that because of this the kings would steal their cattle, draft their sons for wars, etc. God granted their request though.
It's interesting you mentioned "Samuel"...
Early Israelites doesn't have any King/Sultan/Ruler/Dictator/Warlord... before Samuel...What they had were only administrators and judges...
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Peace & greetings be with you guys as well.
There would be some nice things about a non-religious government, and also bad things.
*How moral and godly would they be?
*And to what extent freedoms are granted?
*What code of law/basis are they going to lay their foundation upon ?
*God Almighty seemingly becoming a taboo in the public school system
*Power, greed, and injustice
*Who is going to rule the country (religious affiliations, race, etc)and if you think that America has a lovely government, please read
Natural Cures "They" Don't Want You to Know About, by Kevin Trudeau
In the Book, please read about the corruption of the FDA and other Government organizations.
"it's all about the money"Yes i would like the freedoms that i have in America, which could be derived and supported form the Quran itself...
There is no compulsion in religion (2256), as we cannot guide everyone (6149),
There is freedom to do (4140)
There is freedom of worship (3915)
these things might not be practiced by the so called "muslim" countries. -
Greetings and Peace, all group
Governments aren't forbidden in Islam, you know why? Because Islam and governments can't co-exist.
You have to do more than stating a verse from a changed Quran with corrupted translations to make me disagree with my own common sense.Do you have any Quranic evidence to support your position, if you seek to influence others to your understanding? Provide a translation that you think is valid, or even your own translation.
Did you have this "common sense" before reading SOL? hmm Is it somehow more compelling evidence than AQ?
Nobody claims that any one form of government is 100% good all of the time, or appropriate for all times or places.
1096 "To you is your system, and to me is mine."
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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*How moral and godly would they be?
This is the same problem on a religious government too.. actually it's much worse on a religious government..
There need to be proper check and balance in place, as thus this can be minimized..*And to what extent freedoms are granted?
To the extent that it doesn't disrupt other people rights and well being..
Thus the saying of "It's your right to worship a stone as long as you didn't throw that stone to me"...*What code of law/basis are they going to lay their foundation upon ?
Those which are agreed upon with the people..*God Almighty seemingly becoming a taboo in the public school system
Not necessarily.. within non religious society... the conception of deity or deities are being taught 'as it is' without the preconception of 'indoctrination'.. (i.e. according to X, there are Y gods, and they are...... according to Y there are 1 god and it is... according to Z there are no gods...)
And I strongly support of not teaching religion(s) to kids..*Power, greed, and injustice
The same everywhere.... injustice can be suppressed through tight control of administration by its people..*Who is going to rule the country (religious affiliations, race, etc)
Those who are elected to run (and not rule) the administration for certain society within certain period of time..and if you think that America has a lovely government, please read
Natural Cures "They" Don't Want You to Know About, by Kevin Trudeau
In the Book, please read about the corruption of the FDA and other Government organizations.
"it's all about the money"Yup they don't... yet so does everywhere else.. there are corruptions in KSA and Vatican too..
But at the very least Mr Trudeau can freely wrote about it..
Without receiving any death threat from the Mullah, Imams, Sultan, Pope, Rabbis etc..Salam / Peace
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Peace be with you as well,
Thanks for replying back.I like my freedoms here in the US, and I wouldn't really want to go live in "muslim" countries.
Corruption and injustice might just be found everywhere, maybe reflective of God's plans/wants as he will not guide everyone. (169)"We allow the leading criminals of every community to plot and scheme. But they only plot and scheme against their own souls, without perceiving." (6123)
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I see that there are people who believe that government should not exist and
However does it not say in AQ that God created us into nations and tribes? Nations have governments don't they? Tribes also have their our councils made up of tribal members to discuss issues etc, no?
Also, did God not give Kingship to certain people?
We need governments, from local councils to the the federal level, because we need to have people/systems dedicated to ensure that society is functioning, that basics needs are being met, the laws are being obeyed etc.
And there needs to be someone or a group of people at the top. Just like a principle of a school, the dean of a university the captain of a team, plane or ship. There has to be somone at the top to make sure everything is going the way as planned The buck has to stop somewhere!
And why is it that people always give the example of the US as the prime reason why governments are bad and should not exist. Why not talk about the Scandanavian/Nordic countries or the Benelux countries, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Singapore or Australia??? There are some very bad governments, but there are also some very good ones.
Countries with good government and strong government do well. Its a fact. No society is perfect. But there are some that come close.
Regards,
Al-Azhar.
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I see that there are people who believe that government should not exist and
However does it not say in AQ that God created us into nations and tribes? Nations have governments don't they? Tribes also have their our councils made up of tribal members to discuss issues etc, no?
The word is "Ummat", and "Ummat" correlate with "Society" rather than "Nation"...
Every society should have an 'administrator' but not a 'government'...Also, did God not give Kingship to certain people?
Kingship???? And pass his uncontrolled / unlegislated absolute power to his own progeny??
You must read the "House Of Saud" or "House Of Hashem" or "Bashar Assad" version of the Quran.. rotfl rotflThe outright rejection over the concept of "Kingship" thus automatically granting power to the king's own son (or whomever else he wishes) without any consultation and agreement from the people is what makes Mr. Hussein Bin Ali got beheaded around 1400 years ago..
We need governments, from local councils to the the federal level, because we need to have people/systems dedicated to ensure that society is functioning, that basics needs are being met, the laws are being obeyed etc.
Countries with good government and strong government do well. Its a fact. No society is perfect. But there are some that come close.
You're mentioning the functionality of 'administration' and not 'government'...
The real difference is on the 'military'.. or put it simply... the "State Government of California" is an 'administration' and not a 'government'... While the "Federal Government of US" IS a government..Salam / Peace
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The only acceptable law is the one Allah created, the Natural Law.
All forms of sovereigns other than Allah, which includes democracy, monarchy etc... are unlawful in Islam.
The bible is extremely corrupted and you know it, so are many holy books and even history, they're all corrupted by the leaders, which happen to be the governments, the Roman Catholic Church etc...
If you read the quran carefully, you will realise that the quran is the bases of a governement of the ELITE, not all the people decide for the whole except the Elite, in the quran they're called utu alilm or Ulema , of course, religious people kidnapped this word , so a scholar means for them a religious man with the memory of an elephant to keep hadiths in their head , thinking is not allowed ofcourse, or think but do not oppose
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If you read the quran carefully, you will realise that the quran is the bases of a governement of the ELITE, not all the people decide for the whole except the Elite, in the quran they're called utu alilm or Ulema , of course, religious people kidnapped this word , so a scholar means for them a religious man with the memory of an elephant to keep hadiths in their head , thinking is not allowed ofcourse, or think but do not oppose
To you thus, the "elite" can only be followers of the Qu'ran and nothing else? We must understand that morality is universal, and not exclusive to a certain class of people. To distinguish evil from good is something that is innate and emotional, and is not attained by reading books.
The only way to coexist freely and with peace, is to understand that morality is universal, adopt natural law and live in "communes" with "administrations" like pointed Jafar. The need of leaders is an argument that is self-defeating.