The Sin of Sodom/ Lot's People
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I do not believe in this division beteween homo, hetero, bi... It is a labelling assuming certain thins which are not proved and without going into depth as to what conditions one thing or the other, even promiscuity...
Sex mostly is in the mind, and the mind is conditioned by many emotional events. I think we are being cheated out of finding out more about human character and behaivour thnak to the very expeditive procedure of labelling a, b, c... Many persons can feel inclined to many things, sexually too, and that doesn't force them into any pattern, except that they decide or assume that they should fit some pattern.
Salaam
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Well its not so easy for me to deny the distinction when its about my attraction. I cannot really flick a light switch on and decide to like women.
Anyhow, that's what I do now, as a Christian @bigmo. I try to follow what Jesus taught through love, charity, kindness, etc. I feel like Christianity is where I belong right now, unless something changes.
I can only do what I feel like God wants me to do. I know that before I embraced Christianity and also started practicing some in my Jewish background, I was in severe idolotry. I was believing Pantheism, which means I basically made God myself.
I had to repent of that, I really did.
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There is a reason for everything, just that and why is the most human question that exists. It seems that putting a name or a label to anything ends the questions and the whys... Fine with me, whoever wants to do that. For me the question does not end there.
Salaam
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Greetings and Peace, all group
5332 They avoid major sins and lewdness, except for minor offences. Your Lord is with vast forgiveness. He has been fully aware of you since He initiated you from the earth, and while you were embryos in the wombs of your mothers. Therefore, do not ascribe purity to yourselves; He is fully aware of the righteous.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Note that Lot's wife, a woman, is included among the people. It is quite a stretch to claim that the women and children were homosexuals!
It's also quite a strech to claim that it was only about male rape, since Lot's wife, a women was among the people. Was she, the other and children all male rapists too?.
However Why were the women and children destroyed? Collateral damage? <I don't think so!> If they were "collateral damage", it MUST be okay for people to attack targets without regard to collateral damage, as shown by the example of the people of Lot!
Good question, why were the women and children destroyed becuase of a few male rapists?. I spose it MUST also be okay to kill all women and children all becuase a few men tried to rape other men.
6164 Say "Shall I seek other than GOD as a Lord when He is the Lord of everything?" And every soul earns what is for it, and none will carry the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return and He will inform you of what you disputed in
I agree with this verse. So why then why would a just GOD (which GOD is) destroy a whole city (of Lots people) all be a few people in it wanted to rape the messengers/angel that came to his house?.
Salaam brother,
Please take a look at these verses to understand better
1174 So when the shock left Abraham, and the good news was delivered to him, he began to argue with Us for the people of Lot.
1175 Abraham was compassionate, kind, obedient.
1176 "O Abraham, turn away from this. The command of your Lord has been passed, and a retribution that will not be turned back is coming for them."2931 And when Our messengers came to Abraham with good news, they said "We are to destroy the people of such a town, for its people have been wicked."
2932 He said "But Lot is in it!" They said "We are fully aware of who is in it. We will save him and his AHL, except his wife; she is of those doomed."Who are the AHL of Lot?
To understand better who are the AHL of a certain person please take a look at the next verses2176 And Noah when he called out before that, thus We responded to him, and We saved him and his AHL from the great distress.
Allah knows exactly who the AHL of Noah are. Even Noah himself doesn't know.
1145 And Noah called on his Lord, and he said "My Lord, my son is from my AHL, and your promise is the truth, and you are the Wisest of all Judges."
1146 He said "O Noah, he is not from your AHL, he was of an unrighteous deed, so do not ask what you have no knowledge of. I advise you not to be of the ignorant."
1147 He said "My Lord, I seek refuge with You from asking You what I do not have knowledge of. And if You do not forgive me and have mercy on me, I will be of the losers!"Everyone from the AHL of Lot were saved, the ones who were not saved were not from his AHL, see 2932.
Also please note the word THALIMEEN used in 2931 which is translated as wicked, it doesn't mean homosexuality.If there were childeren and women and men who where not thalimeen then they were saved as they are of the AHL of Lot. AHL does not mean family, see 2176. The people who were with Noah on the boat were his AHL his son and his wife not.
If you still doubt about little childeren, it never says something about childeren in the town, see also what Ibrahim says, he never mentions childeren.
But even if there were childeren in that place, Allah is full aware of who there are. Please read the next verses1874 So they ventured forth until they came upon a youth, and he killed him. He said "Have you killed an innocent person without justice? You have done something awful!"
1875 He said "Did I not tell you that you will not be able to have patience with me?"1880 "And as for the youth, his parents were believers, so we were concerned that he would oppress them by his transgression and disbelief."
1881 "So we wanted their Lord to replace for them with one who is better than him in purity and closer to mercy."Salaam and may Allah increase us in knowledge,
Bender -
In AQ 2221 there is no shift in audience. Where else does such a shift occur in AQ? In the few places where females/women are specifically addressed apart from men, they are specially identified. Example
~Abdul-Hadi
Salaam brother,
You are right that there is no shift in audience but who is the audience in the verse?
2221 And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe. For a believing female servant is better than a polytheist even if she attracts you. And do not marry the male polytheists until they believe. For a believing male servant is better than a polytheist even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to the Paradise and forgiveness by His consent. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.
Does that mean men only?
Salaam,
Bender -
Greetings and Peace, all group
@Bender Both of your posts were insightful reading. handshake sun
I got tunnel vision on the audience in 2221; it appears that you are correct.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Forgive me if I sound defensive, but I never claimed that the people of Lot were destroyed for rape or homosexual acts or any one transgression.
I never said that you did say that but you did say that the verses where GOD is telling Lot to tell his people (the men) not to approach other men sex, as only about male rape and not about homosexuality.
The fact that there are same-sex marriages does not mean that we can say with certainty if ALLAH counts them as marriage or not.
In AQ 2221 there is no shift in audience. Where else does such a shift occur in AQ? In the few places where females/women are specifically addressed apart from men, they are specially identified.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
There is a change in the gender of the audience in AQ 2221 because if there isn't then it would contradict these verses
2755 "You are approaching the men out of lust
instead of the women!No, you are an
ignorant people!"If GOD was alright with homosexual intercourse then why would he tell Lot to tell the men of his people that they were ingnorant for approaching the men instead of the women for lust?, meaning the GOD intended for the men to only have sex with their women/wives.
Also
26165 "Do you approach the males of the
worlds?"
26166 "You leave what your Lord has created
for you of mates? You are an intrusive
people!"Now who are the mates that GOD as created which Lot is telling off his people for leaving if it's not the women?.
How can verse 2221 be allowing same sex marriages, but verses 2755, 26165, 26166 be against men having sex/lust with someone other than or instead of the mates/women that GOD created?.
I think we can both agree that GOD does not contradict himself.
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Notice that the Koran only seems to put that forward in the context of heterosexual men choosing to go with other males. Not in the context of an actual homosexual attracted to other men by their natural makeup. A point you seem hesitant to address. Another point you won't address is it says they leave their wives, which would be adultery.
This is just like people who cite Romans 1 out of context when it comes to the New Testament.
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Notice that the Koran only seems to put that forward in the context of heterosexual men choosing to go with other males. Not in the context of an actual homosexual attracted to other men by their natural makeup. A point you seem hesitant to address. Another point you won't address is it says they leave their wives, which would be adultery.
This is just like people who cite Romans 1 out of context when it comes to the New Testament.
How are those men who leave their wives for other men hetrosexual because if they were they would leave their wives for other women, which is a point you won't address.
Why do you think those verses i posted are only for married men and not for single men also?.
Another point you wont address.I have already adressed the point that sex outside marriage (gay or straight) which also includes adultery, according to the Quran is wrong.
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I just wanted to say I am sorry that someone told you, that you should be killed and that there was no place for your in Islam. That is horrible. Just know that God created you and God truly loves you and has a plan for you. I am not Gay but this is an issue I am still trying to understand myself.
I truly believe that as long as you believe in God, and are a kind, compassionate person you will not have anything to worry about.
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I just wanted to say I am sorry that someone told you, that you should be killed and that there was no place for your in Islam. That is horrible. Just know that God created you and God truly loves you and has a plan for you. I am not Gay but this is an issue I am still trying to understand myself.
I truly believe that as long as you believe in God, and are a kind, compassionate person you will not have anything to worry about.
On the authority of
Abdullah ibnAbbas that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "If you find anybody committing the act of the People of Lot (i.e. sodomy), then kill the one doing it and the one with whom it is done."This hadith is recorded by Imam Ahmad, Imam Abu Dawud, and Imam At-Tirmidhi among others.This hadith was probably taken from the Old Testament
Leviticus 1822 "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
These laws were laid upon the Israelites after they took the calf as a god and were told to take their lives. God forgave them for that sin but instead placed harsh laws on them.
However Ezekiel in the Bible talks about the sins of the people of Lot and he did not mention homosexuality as one of them. In fact he mentioned the very same things I said the Koran said it will detsroy nations over. Homosexuality by itself is really meaningless.
Ezekiel 16
1649 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy -
These laws were laid upon the Israelites after they took the calf as a god and were told to take their lives. God forgave them for that sin but instead placed harsh laws on them.
How can you say this when Allah in the Qu'ran, clearly and explicitly says that he never changes his Sunnah? To ascribe such a law to your creator is shameful.
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Just like others said similar things before,
Yes it is the ACT of same-gender intimate relationships that would be spoken of in the negative spectrum...as well as rape/oppression etc
for your case, as being unable to change what you?re attracted to...
It wouldn?t really matter what you are attracted too, whether men, women, or children,
One must practice self control, this would go for everyone
There is a commandment stipulating the GUARDING of your private parts (2430),
This would be for a reason. Notice the word used is ?Guard?, obviously there would be some inclination/desire that we would have to literally ?guard? ourselves from too.You may not be able to change what you?re attracted to, but abstinence would be one of the solutions here, whether homo or hetero gender relationships.
Can you be gay and be muslim?
it would not really matter what you?re attracted to mentally, practice self control and abstinence. This is what i would be doing right now.personally, before having a core belief( i was kind of agnostic), i was attracted to males and maybe females... then i just started to not care and became kind of asexual, and also kind of anti-social and to myself. Nevertheless To say, I started to look into self betterment of myself, learning, being a positive person, doing good things.....then i was kind of hit hard and debased and was on the streets, then out of nowhere i prayed to God for the first time in years, and that's when i became a believer in God again.
yes, i don?t have an intimate life, and personally, i would find more euphoria in striving and doing good deeds and works than intimacy )
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self control and abstinence is not a solution!
It is a kind of self mutilation psychologically, like dying slowly, and that is precisely what the majority of religious mob wants anyway! If they cannot openly kill gays they would induce them to other means of annihilation, and then young gays just self-impose the torture on themselves...
http//www.jaymichaelson.net/does-the-bible-really-call-homosexuality-an-%E2%80%9Cabomination%E2%80%9D/
watch the movies
http//www.imdb.com/title/tt0912583/ The Bible Tells Me So
http//www.imdb.com/title/tt0780046/ Jihad for Love -
Greetings and Peace, all group
self control and abstinence is not a solution!
It is a kind of self mutilation psychologically, like dying slowly, and that is precisely what the majority of religious mob wants anyway! If they cannot openly kill gays they would induce them to other means of annihilation, and then young gays just self-impose the torture on themselves...
http//www.jaymichaelson.net/does-the-bible-really-call-homosexuality-an-%E2%80%9Cabomination%E2%80%9D/
watch the movies
http//www.imdb.com/title/tt0912583/ The Bible Tells Me So
http//www.imdb.com/title/tt0780046/ Jihad for LoveHeterosexuals practice self control by being faithful to their respective spouses and by not having sex before marriage. Is this somehow bad? Why would it be any different for another sexual orientation; is someone of a different orientation somehow exempted from having to practice self control? Homosexuality is not a special kind of license or permit!
What is marriage PRIMARILY, a contract or a commitment? Are there not homosexuals in committed relationships (with same OR different gender)?
Isn't the main purpose of a marriage contract to protect? How are same-sex couples protected by being denied a marriage contract? For the sake of example, is it somehow more fitting if a person were to get a sex-change so that they could marry the gender they changed from? )
The first link had interesting info; it would seem that the Bible is (also) sometimes mistranslated. Oh, and shellfish are hardly "abominations." Homosexuality is exactly as "abominable" as shellfish! sun
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Oh I see Youssef, so this is more about what you chose to do in your own life, and now you want to pull me along for the ride. I'm sure you mean well, but that's honestly what it comes across like when you, and others like you, say I should live this way just because you do.
God Submitter is correct, being gay and never knowing love or intimacy is miserable. It's like dying inside. I know, because I tried to fight who I was. I was miserable every single day, until I realized this couldn't be how God wanted me to live.
I'm sure you mean well Youssef, but I need love and closeness sometimes, and I'm not you. I also mean absolutely no disrespect or disregard for my Creator in doing so. I can't remember ever making a choice, so I'd assume He made me this way.
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To Godsubmitter,
Abstinence would go for everyone.
what should heterosexual teenagers do when their desires and hormones are on high?
Are you going to have pity on Homosexuals and overlook heterosexuals?
Do not heterosexuals have desires too?
"tell the Believers to lower their gaze and Guard their private parts" (2040) this would go for everyone.
To be fair, are you then going to tell heterosexual teenage boys to go have intimate relationships as well because of their urge?To ExplorerSeeker86
Yes i meant well, and you are free to choose, i was not pressuring you
I've been through similar things. After a time however, i just didn't care, i kind of looked for self betterment of myself, before that i did lots of charity like advertising for helping out the poor and hungry etc.
I did positive work, and after a time, i just wasn't desiring relationships or intimacy.
Heck, I would rather do good deed/works, charity etc.Please Think Rationally and Look for a life purpose, how far are you going to go looking for a relationship, and how long will it last...
To say, i have found my own purpose, now it would be supporting God Almighty, doing good deeds and works etc.
I don't really regret it. Yes i am a sinner, i am not perfect. I have been in much trouble because of my beliefs in wanting to follow the Quran Alone;
I've been in the cold, in the rain, on the streets, running away to different states, debased, put down, disowned, prayed against, visited about 5 states in my journey...."
I was homeless for about 7 times now, the last time was earlier this month.
But guess what, i am still here. I didn't have all that i wanted, but i apparently had what i needed. I did not have that much money, but God provided me, even when there was not much, and to say, going against the odds. I have a Quran, a couple of bibles, a Hebrew Pentateuch & Haftorah, a portable world bible with different scriptures, and other books as well... This would be my treausre"So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."
(Matthew 631-4)I would attest to this myself.
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To Godsubmitter,
Abstinence would go for everyone.
what should heterosexual teenagers do when their desires and hormones are on high?
Are you going to have pity on Homosexuals and overlook heterosexuals?
Do not heterosexuals have desires too?
"tell the Believers to lower their gaze and Guard their private parts" (2040) this would go for everyone.
To be fair, are you then going to tell heterosexual teenage boys to go have intimate relationships as well because of their urge?To ExplorerSeeker86
Yes i meant well, and you are free to choose, i was not pressuring you
I've been through similar things. After a time however, i just didn't care, i kind of looked for self betterment of myself, before that i did lots of charity like advertising for helping out the poor and hungry etc.
I did positive work, and after a time, i just wasn't desiring relationships or intimacy.
Heck, I would rather do good deed/works, charity etc.Please Think Rationally and Look for a life purpose, how far are you going to go looking for a relationship, and how long will it last...
To say, i have found my own purpose, now it would be supporting God Almighty, doing good deeds and works etc.
I don't really regret it. Yes i am a sinner, i am not perfect. I have been in much trouble because of my beliefs in wanting to follow the Quran Alone;
I've been in the cold, in the rain, on the streets, running away to different states, debased, put down, disowned, prayed against, visited about 5 states in my journey...."
I was homeless for about 7 times now, the last time was earlier this month.
But guess what, i am still here. I didn't have all that i wanted, but i apparently had what i needed. I did not have that much money, but God provided me, even when there was not much, and to say, going against the odds. I have a Quran, a couple of bibles, a Hebrew Pentateuch & Haftorah, a portable world bible with different scriptures, and other books as well... This would be my treausre"So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."
(Matthew 631-4)I would attest to this myself.
sun