The Sin of Sodom/ Lot's People
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In AQ 2221 there is no shift in audience. Where else does such a shift occur in AQ? In the few places where females/women are specifically addressed apart from men, they are specially identified. Example
~Abdul-Hadi
Salaam brother,
You are right that there is no shift in audience but who is the audience in the verse?
2221 And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe. For a believing female servant is better than a polytheist even if she attracts you. And do not marry the male polytheists until they believe. For a believing male servant is better than a polytheist even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to the Paradise and forgiveness by His consent. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.
Does that mean men only?
Salaam,
Bender -
Greetings and Peace, all group
@Bender Both of your posts were insightful reading. handshake sun
I got tunnel vision on the audience in 2221; it appears that you are correct.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Forgive me if I sound defensive, but I never claimed that the people of Lot were destroyed for rape or homosexual acts or any one transgression.
I never said that you did say that but you did say that the verses where GOD is telling Lot to tell his people (the men) not to approach other men sex, as only about male rape and not about homosexuality.
The fact that there are same-sex marriages does not mean that we can say with certainty if ALLAH counts them as marriage or not.
In AQ 2221 there is no shift in audience. Where else does such a shift occur in AQ? In the few places where females/women are specifically addressed apart from men, they are specially identified.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
There is a change in the gender of the audience in AQ 2221 because if there isn't then it would contradict these verses
2755 "You are approaching the men out of lust
instead of the women!No, you are an
ignorant people!"If GOD was alright with homosexual intercourse then why would he tell Lot to tell the men of his people that they were ingnorant for approaching the men instead of the women for lust?, meaning the GOD intended for the men to only have sex with their women/wives.
Also
26165 "Do you approach the males of the
worlds?"
26166 "You leave what your Lord has created
for you of mates? You are an intrusive
people!"Now who are the mates that GOD as created which Lot is telling off his people for leaving if it's not the women?.
How can verse 2221 be allowing same sex marriages, but verses 2755, 26165, 26166 be against men having sex/lust with someone other than or instead of the mates/women that GOD created?.
I think we can both agree that GOD does not contradict himself.
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Notice that the Koran only seems to put that forward in the context of heterosexual men choosing to go with other males. Not in the context of an actual homosexual attracted to other men by their natural makeup. A point you seem hesitant to address. Another point you won't address is it says they leave their wives, which would be adultery.
This is just like people who cite Romans 1 out of context when it comes to the New Testament.
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Notice that the Koran only seems to put that forward in the context of heterosexual men choosing to go with other males. Not in the context of an actual homosexual attracted to other men by their natural makeup. A point you seem hesitant to address. Another point you won't address is it says they leave their wives, which would be adultery.
This is just like people who cite Romans 1 out of context when it comes to the New Testament.
How are those men who leave their wives for other men hetrosexual because if they were they would leave their wives for other women, which is a point you won't address.
Why do you think those verses i posted are only for married men and not for single men also?.
Another point you wont address.I have already adressed the point that sex outside marriage (gay or straight) which also includes adultery, according to the Quran is wrong.
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I just wanted to say I am sorry that someone told you, that you should be killed and that there was no place for your in Islam. That is horrible. Just know that God created you and God truly loves you and has a plan for you. I am not Gay but this is an issue I am still trying to understand myself.
I truly believe that as long as you believe in God, and are a kind, compassionate person you will not have anything to worry about.
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I just wanted to say I am sorry that someone told you, that you should be killed and that there was no place for your in Islam. That is horrible. Just know that God created you and God truly loves you and has a plan for you. I am not Gay but this is an issue I am still trying to understand myself.
I truly believe that as long as you believe in God, and are a kind, compassionate person you will not have anything to worry about.
On the authority of
Abdullah ibnAbbas that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "If you find anybody committing the act of the People of Lot (i.e. sodomy), then kill the one doing it and the one with whom it is done."This hadith is recorded by Imam Ahmad, Imam Abu Dawud, and Imam At-Tirmidhi among others.This hadith was probably taken from the Old Testament
Leviticus 1822 "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
These laws were laid upon the Israelites after they took the calf as a god and were told to take their lives. God forgave them for that sin but instead placed harsh laws on them.
However Ezekiel in the Bible talks about the sins of the people of Lot and he did not mention homosexuality as one of them. In fact he mentioned the very same things I said the Koran said it will detsroy nations over. Homosexuality by itself is really meaningless.
Ezekiel 16
1649 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy -
These laws were laid upon the Israelites after they took the calf as a god and were told to take their lives. God forgave them for that sin but instead placed harsh laws on them.
How can you say this when Allah in the Qu'ran, clearly and explicitly says that he never changes his Sunnah? To ascribe such a law to your creator is shameful.
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Just like others said similar things before,
Yes it is the ACT of same-gender intimate relationships that would be spoken of in the negative spectrum...as well as rape/oppression etc
for your case, as being unable to change what you?re attracted to...
It wouldn?t really matter what you are attracted too, whether men, women, or children,
One must practice self control, this would go for everyone
There is a commandment stipulating the GUARDING of your private parts (2430),
This would be for a reason. Notice the word used is ?Guard?, obviously there would be some inclination/desire that we would have to literally ?guard? ourselves from too.You may not be able to change what you?re attracted to, but abstinence would be one of the solutions here, whether homo or hetero gender relationships.
Can you be gay and be muslim?
it would not really matter what you?re attracted to mentally, practice self control and abstinence. This is what i would be doing right now.personally, before having a core belief( i was kind of agnostic), i was attracted to males and maybe females... then i just started to not care and became kind of asexual, and also kind of anti-social and to myself. Nevertheless To say, I started to look into self betterment of myself, learning, being a positive person, doing good things.....then i was kind of hit hard and debased and was on the streets, then out of nowhere i prayed to God for the first time in years, and that's when i became a believer in God again.
yes, i don?t have an intimate life, and personally, i would find more euphoria in striving and doing good deeds and works than intimacy )
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self control and abstinence is not a solution!
It is a kind of self mutilation psychologically, like dying slowly, and that is precisely what the majority of religious mob wants anyway! If they cannot openly kill gays they would induce them to other means of annihilation, and then young gays just self-impose the torture on themselves...
http//www.jaymichaelson.net/does-the-bible-really-call-homosexuality-an-%E2%80%9Cabomination%E2%80%9D/
watch the movies
http//www.imdb.com/title/tt0912583/ The Bible Tells Me So
http//www.imdb.com/title/tt0780046/ Jihad for Love -
Greetings and Peace, all group
self control and abstinence is not a solution!
It is a kind of self mutilation psychologically, like dying slowly, and that is precisely what the majority of religious mob wants anyway! If they cannot openly kill gays they would induce them to other means of annihilation, and then young gays just self-impose the torture on themselves...
http//www.jaymichaelson.net/does-the-bible-really-call-homosexuality-an-%E2%80%9Cabomination%E2%80%9D/
watch the movies
http//www.imdb.com/title/tt0912583/ The Bible Tells Me So
http//www.imdb.com/title/tt0780046/ Jihad for LoveHeterosexuals practice self control by being faithful to their respective spouses and by not having sex before marriage. Is this somehow bad? Why would it be any different for another sexual orientation; is someone of a different orientation somehow exempted from having to practice self control? Homosexuality is not a special kind of license or permit!
What is marriage PRIMARILY, a contract or a commitment? Are there not homosexuals in committed relationships (with same OR different gender)?
Isn't the main purpose of a marriage contract to protect? How are same-sex couples protected by being denied a marriage contract? For the sake of example, is it somehow more fitting if a person were to get a sex-change so that they could marry the gender they changed from? )
The first link had interesting info; it would seem that the Bible is (also) sometimes mistranslated. Oh, and shellfish are hardly "abominations." Homosexuality is exactly as "abominable" as shellfish! sun
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Oh I see Youssef, so this is more about what you chose to do in your own life, and now you want to pull me along for the ride. I'm sure you mean well, but that's honestly what it comes across like when you, and others like you, say I should live this way just because you do.
God Submitter is correct, being gay and never knowing love or intimacy is miserable. It's like dying inside. I know, because I tried to fight who I was. I was miserable every single day, until I realized this couldn't be how God wanted me to live.
I'm sure you mean well Youssef, but I need love and closeness sometimes, and I'm not you. I also mean absolutely no disrespect or disregard for my Creator in doing so. I can't remember ever making a choice, so I'd assume He made me this way.
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To Godsubmitter,
Abstinence would go for everyone.
what should heterosexual teenagers do when their desires and hormones are on high?
Are you going to have pity on Homosexuals and overlook heterosexuals?
Do not heterosexuals have desires too?
"tell the Believers to lower their gaze and Guard their private parts" (2040) this would go for everyone.
To be fair, are you then going to tell heterosexual teenage boys to go have intimate relationships as well because of their urge?To ExplorerSeeker86
Yes i meant well, and you are free to choose, i was not pressuring you
I've been through similar things. After a time however, i just didn't care, i kind of looked for self betterment of myself, before that i did lots of charity like advertising for helping out the poor and hungry etc.
I did positive work, and after a time, i just wasn't desiring relationships or intimacy.
Heck, I would rather do good deed/works, charity etc.Please Think Rationally and Look for a life purpose, how far are you going to go looking for a relationship, and how long will it last...
To say, i have found my own purpose, now it would be supporting God Almighty, doing good deeds and works etc.
I don't really regret it. Yes i am a sinner, i am not perfect. I have been in much trouble because of my beliefs in wanting to follow the Quran Alone;
I've been in the cold, in the rain, on the streets, running away to different states, debased, put down, disowned, prayed against, visited about 5 states in my journey...."
I was homeless for about 7 times now, the last time was earlier this month.
But guess what, i am still here. I didn't have all that i wanted, but i apparently had what i needed. I did not have that much money, but God provided me, even when there was not much, and to say, going against the odds. I have a Quran, a couple of bibles, a Hebrew Pentateuch & Haftorah, a portable world bible with different scriptures, and other books as well... This would be my treausre"So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."
(Matthew 631-4)I would attest to this myself.
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To Godsubmitter,
Abstinence would go for everyone.
what should heterosexual teenagers do when their desires and hormones are on high?
Are you going to have pity on Homosexuals and overlook heterosexuals?
Do not heterosexuals have desires too?
"tell the Believers to lower their gaze and Guard their private parts" (2040) this would go for everyone.
To be fair, are you then going to tell heterosexual teenage boys to go have intimate relationships as well because of their urge?To ExplorerSeeker86
Yes i meant well, and you are free to choose, i was not pressuring you
I've been through similar things. After a time however, i just didn't care, i kind of looked for self betterment of myself, before that i did lots of charity like advertising for helping out the poor and hungry etc.
I did positive work, and after a time, i just wasn't desiring relationships or intimacy.
Heck, I would rather do good deed/works, charity etc.Please Think Rationally and Look for a life purpose, how far are you going to go looking for a relationship, and how long will it last...
To say, i have found my own purpose, now it would be supporting God Almighty, doing good deeds and works etc.
I don't really regret it. Yes i am a sinner, i am not perfect. I have been in much trouble because of my beliefs in wanting to follow the Quran Alone;
I've been in the cold, in the rain, on the streets, running away to different states, debased, put down, disowned, prayed against, visited about 5 states in my journey...."
I was homeless for about 7 times now, the last time was earlier this month.
But guess what, i am still here. I didn't have all that i wanted, but i apparently had what i needed. I did not have that much money, but God provided me, even when there was not much, and to say, going against the odds. I have a Quran, a couple of bibles, a Hebrew Pentateuch & Haftorah, a portable world bible with different scriptures, and other books as well... This would be my treausre"So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."
(Matthew 631-4)I would attest to this myself.
sun
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God created everything!, even Iblees, or evil inclinations together with bliss etc etc etc.
There is absolutely nothing outside of God. And there is nothing at all, but God.
The desire is the basis of life and lack of it leads to depression and mortification.
Every obstacle and problem in life is designed to move a person to a higher level of knowledge of God.All is perfect and nothing changes. Reality is.
You can not pray gay away.The very first commandment is to believe in God. sun
Why?
How you can you command it to someone? One either believes or not, like you either love or don't, commandments are for actions and laws. You cannot command love or belief... And "who" is commanding, if a person doesn't believe in God? And, if the person believes, then why command it at all? Unless someone is blind dumb and deaf, one knows that there is God!
So, the commandment is there as a reminder to strive and deepen the knowledge of God and the trust in God. -
Actually GodSubmitter
There is a kind of "System of belief/unbelief" in the Quran.
I never got to finish my would-be postGod Almighty does NOT guide the liars, the transgressors, the guilty etc
God Almighty will not guide the Arrogants, no matter what sign they see, they will not believe
God Almighty would be active in his creation. He is not just watching us from far away, he is playing a role as well.
"I will turn away from My signs those who are arrogant upon the earth without right; and if they should see every sign, they will not believe in it. And if they see the way of consciousness/right judgment, they will not adopt it as a way; but if they see the way of error, they will adopt it as a way. That is because they have denied Our signs and they were heedless of them. (7146)
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Peace
Would it be, in fact, possible for Lot to offer his two daughters physically to a whole city or maybe it was symbolic.
Or, maybe the people mentioned at the door of Lots house were the actual husbands of the two daughters. In that case they were lawful for them.
Homosexuality would have been in existence in Mesopotamia or in other civilizations both before and after Lot . But there is no mention where a whole nation persisted in homosexuality like Lots city.
From the account of Lots town I do not see a green light from the Quran for homosexuality.
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Peace be with you as well,
I would say it was actually because the respond of the people were We have not rights with your daughters (117
and hey, you brought up point in that Lot's community was the FIRST community as a WHOLE to commit homosexuality.....
Yes there might have been individual cases, but that might not have made God Almighty to destroy an entire innocent people for just individual cases.