Suaib times

Kaiokenred

Kaioken,

How would one, according to your understanding, approach second part of verse 15?
What does it mean and how does one do it?
I'm just curious to see it from your point of view.

Iyaaka nastaeen
only you we ask for help

Prayer is a ritual, asking Allah for help within yourself is not prayer nor anything close to a ritual.

Also please don't ask me with such translations again, I only accept translations by Abdun Nur and sometimes Aidid Safar, as those seem most close to what my common sense can agree with

youssef4342

Asking God withing yourself. what do you call that?
asking? beseeching? invoking?
Some people might see that as Prayer. What's the definition of prayer

Kaiokenred

Asking God withing yourself. what do you call that?
asking? beseeching? invoking?
Some people might see that as Prayer. What's the definition of prayer

Not God!
And yes the translations are bad so I won't trust them.

Prayer is an invocation or act that seeks to activate a rapport with a deity or object of worship through deliberate communication. Prayer can be a form of religious practice, may be either individual or communal and take place in public or in private. It may involve the use of words or song. When language is used, prayer may take the form of a hymn, incantation, formal creed, or a spontaneous utterance in the praying person. There are different forms of prayer such as petitionary prayer, prayers of supplication, thanksgiving, and worship/praise. Prayer may be directed towards a deity, spirit, deceased person, or lofty idea, for the purpose of worshipping, requesting guidance, requesting assistance, confessing sins or to express one's thoughts and emotions. Thus, people pray for many reasons such as personal benefit or for the sake of others.
Most major religions involve prayer in one way or another. Some ritualize the act of prayer, requiring a strict sequence of actions or placing a restriction on who is permitted to pray, while others teach that prayer may be practiced spontaneously by anyone at any time.
Scientific studies regarding the use of prayer have mostly concentrated on its effect on the healing of sick or injured people. The efficacy of petition in prayer for physical healing to a deity has been evaluated in numerous studies, with contradictory results. There has been some criticism of the way the studies were conducted.

Don't mind what I said on the previous post, I don't know how to express it well so I'm misunderstood

Zulf

Ok, so do I understand it correctly that you agree that one rightly can ask Allah for help within oneself?

Do you use any specific word for this "asking within"... so that we can speak the same language, and since you do not accept the english word 'pray' even when it is used for 'asking within' and not for anything ritualistic.

is not a translation. And 'iyaaka nastaeen' is the transliteration. And Aidid Safar translates it as 'only you we ask for help'. If you know where I can find Abdunur's translation of the quran... please let me know coz I haven't found it on the SOL website.

Kaiokenred

Ok, so do I understand it correctly that you agree that one rightly can ask Allah for help within oneself?

Do you use any specific word for this "asking within"... so that we can speak the same language, and since you do not accept the english word 'pray' even when it is used for 'asking within' and not for anything ritualistic.

is not a translation. And 'iyaaka nastaeen' is the transliteration. And Aidid Safar translates it as 'only you we ask for help'. If you know where I can find Abdunur's translation of the quran... please let me know coz I haven't found it on the SOL website.

I said to disregard my previous posts, I used the wrong words because I couldn't really find the right ones and still can't. Don't know how to express it

Abdun Nur's quran is faaaar from being fully translated
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/93/44/

Zulf

Sorry, I didn't see that post before I posted my message

Kaiokenred

Sorry, I didn't see that post before I posted my message

No need to apologize at all sun

Zulf

Thanks for the link to SOL quran pages. I quickly checked Abdunur's interpretation of surah fatiha... and unless one has done some deeeeeep study of arabic... it would be blind faith to just follow his translation. We are afterall told in the quran to not uphold anything that we have not verified ourselves... so I'm telling you... Abdunur's stuff is not verified in just a jiffy... it will take some serious research. So be careful... if you don't know arabic, and even if it makes sense to you... relying of Abdunur's translation, without verifying it.... is blind faith.

Note that I'm not saying Abdunur is wrong.... but I won't uphold it until verified and it makes sense through logical analysis in the light of the rest of the quran and its language.

Also please don't ask me with such translations again, I only accept translations by Abdun Nur and sometimes Aidid Safar, as those seem most close to what my common sense can agree with

Kaiokenred

Thanks for the link to SOL quran pages. I quickly checked Abdunur's interpretation of surah fatiha... and unless one has done some deeeeeep study of arabic... it would be blind faith to just follow his translation. We are afterall told in the quran to not uphold anything that we have not verified ourselves... so I'm telling you... Abdunur's stuff is not verified in just a jiffy... it will take some serious research. So be careful... if you don't know arabic, and even if it makes sense to you... relying of Abdunur's translation, without verifying it.... is blind faith.

Note that I'm not saying Abdunur is wrong.... but I won't uphold it until verified and it makes sense through logical analysis in the light of the rest of the quran and its language.

I follow what makes most sense to me. What I find reasonable. Check my signature for example.

Zulf

Peace ;D

lordfox

Thanks for the link to SOL quran pages. I quickly checked Abdunur's interpretation of surah fatiha... and unless one has done some deeeeeep study of arabic... it would be blind faith to just follow his translation. We are afterall told in the quran to not uphold anything that we have not verified ourselves... so I'm telling you... Abdunur's stuff is not verified in just a jiffy... it will take some serious research. So be careful... if you don't know arabic, and even if it makes sense to you... relying of Abdunur's translation, without verifying it.... is blind faith.

Note that I'm not saying Abdunur is wrong.... but I won't uphold it until verified and it makes sense through logical analysis in the light of the rest of the quran and its language.

Good.
Why though, as expressed by your other posts on this forum, do you accept some concepts based on the traditional translations ?

Kaiokenred

Peace ;D

But read this anyway http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/115/147/

Good night

Mr_Q

We are supposed to take this seriously?

Where is Abdun Nur's proof that the Arabic language was so damaged and so changed as to come to the translation below? What inerrant grammar guide and definitions is he using? Or is he just making things up to suit his own created theology?

Abdun Nur's Sura 1

11 This is the timeless sign conveying the knowledge from the One, who is not a deity for worship and adoration. About the abundant and effortless state of life that mankind cannot conceive by themselves, from your sustainer and maintainer. The greatest mercy from the One.

12 The decree for all width and breadth of land, on account of the One, who is not a deity for worship and adoration. One rearing, fostering, nourishing and accomplishing all created beings, capable of acquiring knowledge.

13 The abundant and effortless state of life, that mankind cannot conceive of by themselves, from your sustainer and maintainer. The greatest mercy from One-

14 which is with you at all times, for you to follow.

15 Be aware, we do not want you to be servants and worshippers; therefore you shall keep yourself clear of this pain in future.

16 You must not break and demolish the path, which is original and most straight, undeviating and unceasing.

17 The original and straight path is pleasant and delightful on which, I make life easy. I have set a banner and a standard for you, to avoid irreparable damage to yourselves. Who become angry and revengeful with this path, will be greatly confounded and perplexed; even unable to see the right course.

Zulf

Good.
Why though, as expressed by your other posts on this forum, do you accept some concepts based on the traditional translations ?

Such as? Are those recent or old posts? I think I joined in 2002 or something.
Before I read your response on my question 1 above, I can give a general answer
We are all on a journey towards improved understanding, including me. Allah knows where I'm wrong and where I'm ok. Personally I'm continuously developing my understanding as I get more views and understandings to consider. I definitely do not claim that whatever I give shine to uphold is the correct understanding, or even the understanding that I claim as mine. There are maaany things I wonder about and have questions on and just simply cannot take a stand on yet, simply because there are several points, all seeming to make sense, that do not go together. I'm at the beginning of my journey into the arabic language... and I have no choice but to work myself through the translations I come across. I do not advocate the traditional translations, but if I at some point have no alternative, then whet should I do? I have to start somewhere. But I'm keenly interested in all those articles that discuss translations of the various concepts found in the quran. Like SOL says... we have to work ourselves up from state to state. This goes for all of us. You can't skip stages in your development.. you have to go thru it all... that's how you learn and get a strong foundation for your latest understanding.

As for Abdunur's quran translation that Kaioken hinted me at... I find it very hard to follow since he has only given his understanding of the whole ayats... and doesn't show how he has deduced his interpretation in connection to the arabic words. If one cannot follow how he reached his conclusion, then one can not subscribe to it, simply because it would just be a leap of faith... blind. But I would love to know he has come to his conclusions of the meaning of the arabic words. Showing this would be a service to others coz then they can build further on this... and verify it, as commanded by Allah.

lordfox

Before I read your response on my question 1 above, I can give a general answer
We are all on a journey towards improved understanding, including me. Allah knows where I'm wrong and where I'm ok. Personally I'm continuously developing my understanding as I get more views and understandings to consider. I definitely do not claim that whatever I give shine to uphold is the correct understanding, or even the understanding that I claim as mine. There are maaany things I wonder about and have questions on and just simply cannot take a stand on yet, simply because there are several points, all seeming to make sense, that do not go together. I'm at the beginning of my journey into the arabic language... and I have no choice but to work myself through the translations I come across. I do not advocate the traditional translations, but if I at some point have no alternative, then whet should I do? I have to start somewhere. But I'm keenly interested in all those articles that discuss translations of the various concepts found in the quran. Like SOL says... we have to work ourselves up from state to state. This goes for all of us. You can't skip stages in your development.. you have to go thru it all... that's how you learn and get a strong foundation for your latest understanding.

Absolutely great. I agree.

As for Abdunur's quran translation that Kaioken hinted me at... I find it very hard to follow since he has only given his understanding of the whole ayats... and doesn't show how he has deduced his interpretation in connection to the arabic words. If one cannot follow how he reached his conclusion, then one can not subscribe to it, simply because it would just be a leap of faith... blind. But I would love to know he has come to his conclusions of the meaning of the arabic words. Showing this would be a service to others coz then they can build further on this... and verify it, as commanded by Allah.

Actually, it is Dr. Badar that is in charge of the translation. The main difference between his translation and the traditional ones is that he uses the grammar and lexicon books that were, at the time of the prophet Muhammad. You can find the names somewhere in the website.

Salaam!

Zulf

On the link Kaio posted to me, I read about the "persian pollution" by this chap Sibby. As far as grammars and lexicons are concerned I was only able to find that he/they/SOL are praising Lane. But even Project Root List is based on Lane, so it's not such a radical difference from what many people on this forum are already using to study the quran. Apart from Lane (and indirectly and unmentioned those that Lane are based on) I have not found any names of grammars or lexicons, apart from those in the discussion of Sibby the Persian. But the SOL translation is still radically different from anything I have seen before, traditional or "koranist" or whatever.

It would just be very interesting to know more about the mechanics and sources of the SOL translation.

peace

Kaiokenred

On the link Kaio posted to me, I read about the "persian pollution" by this chap Sibby. As far as grammars and lexicons are concerned I was only able to find that he/they/SOL are praising Lane. But even Project Root List is based on Lane, so it's not such a radical difference from what many people on this forum are already using to study the quran. Apart from Lane (and indirectly and unmentioned those that Lane are based on) I have not found any names of grammars or lexicons, apart from those in the discussion of Sibby the Persian. But the SOL translation is still radically different from anything I have seen before, traditional or "koranist" or whatever.

It would just be very interesting to know more about the mechanics and sources of the SOL translation.

peace

You can send a message to Abdun Nur asking him about that but don't expect a reply anytime soon since he's very busy thus rarely logs in on this forum.

And you said to not follow Abdun Nur's translations without confirming because it would be blind faith,
then what about all other translations? I don't know arabic and doubt I will ever learn it, even if I wouldn't be able to learn the arabic used on Muhammad's time.

I read many translations, and agree with what is most reasonable to me.

Zulf

You can send a message to Abdun Nur asking him about that but don't expect a reply anytime soon since he's very busy thus rarely logs in on this forum.

And you said to not follow Abdun Nur's translations without confirming because it would be blind faith,
then what about all other translations? I don't know arabic and doubt I will ever learn it, even if I wouldn't be able to learn the arabic used on Muhammad's time.

I read many translations, and agree with what is most reasonable to me.

You are right... if we don't know arabic then it would be equally blind faith regardless of what translation one follows.

The only thing I reacted at when reading SOL translation was that it seems the language has been re-invented. It seems they have totally new meanings for the words. I would be amazed if all this agrees with Lane and the grammars. But I'm no expert. I mean, you cannot just invent a new grammar. There has to be some strong and consistent reasons for everything you do. I do know some arabic, although just the basics, but the SOL translations made no sense to me. For example, 'maliki' is generally know as 'king' while SOL renders it 'what is it to you'.... and that's starkly different. Also, if we compare the traditional/sunni rendering of the arabic vs the koranist we see some totally different meanings in the translations... but they all use the same lexicons and grammars.... it is just a choice of words when an arabic word can mean several things. We have to choose what suits the context. Also the grammar has to make sense.

Anyhow, let's see what happens to the SOL translation. We should keep all options open and follow the best.

Peace

nurmuhammed

elektro

I still can't get it what is "salat" means -\

Zulf

Ask Allah to show you to the truth, and to let you be able to handle the truth.

Also, the best we can do is to read all articles we can find on salat/solaa and do our own research with the help of resources like Project Root List. There are several articles on what Salat is and is not. We need to go thru them all... ask Allah for guidance and be patient.

I think it may be more difficult than we think to approach a topic from scratch. We always have many assumptions and old ideas we have been taught. The topics in the quran are also, it seems to me, connected to each other, so if we are able to break free from one faulty understanding, there might be some other topic becoming an obstacle for us making it difficult to move towards a pure understanding since we are unconsciously stuck in assumptions about that topic.

We should however have the intention in the heart to find the real meanings... to advance.

Peace