Prayer Direction
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Peace Sushi,
Here is an experiment so that you can be certain who are the foolish people talked about in 2142.
Face any other direction in your prayer and surely the people who make a big deal out of physical direction will ask you something similar to the following
002.142
YUSUFALI The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.
PICKTHAL The foolish of the people will say What hath turned them from the qiblah which they formerly observed? Say Unto Allah belong the East and the West. He guideth whom He will unto a straight path.
SHAKIR The fools among the people will say What has turned them from their qiblah which they had? Say The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path.You will be able to empirically verify who the foolish people are.
Peace,
Ayman
Ayman I am agreeing with you here... I do not see what else it could mean apart from actually praying to the Qibla, though praying is not specified here but obviously a Qibla was used to pray no? So we know that this is regarding praying yes?
Peace
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Qibla is a 'place of gathering/rallying point' not the 'direction to orient your head on praying'....
The Israelite (Jews included) place of gathering (Qibla) during Jesus time is IN Jerusalem...
The Israelite (Jews included) place of gathering (Qibla) during Moses time, just before the big migration from Egypt, is IN "Their respective home within Egypt"..In today's world the synonym of "Qibla" is Plaza, Headquarter, Capital etc...
Salam / Peace
Hmm ok Jafar, so your interpretation is "gathering point/rally point" and Ayman's interpretation of this (as far as I know, correct me if I am wrong Ayman) is that it means "target"... so what can we draw from this then. That the Qibla is a gathering point which is used as a target? And if so then when questioned why we turn away from the set 'target' or 'gathering point' we say to God is the east and the west.
Peace peace
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Hmm ok Jafar, so your interpretation is "gathering point/rally point" and Ayman's interpretation of this (as far as I know, correct me if I am wrong Ayman) is that it means "target"... so what can we draw from this then. That the Qibla is a gathering point which is used as a target? And if so then when questioned why we turn away from the set 'target' or 'gathering point' we say to God is the east and the west.
Peace peace
And We inspired to Moses and his brother, "Settle your people in Egypt in houses and MAKE THE HOUSES QIBLATAN and uphold the commandment/commitment (Salata) and give good tidings to the believers.
(1087)This has been discussed here before..
This is the key verse which explain what "QIBLAT" really means...So let's imagine we're among "Moses people" as told in that verse..
We're told to stay put in our houses and make our own houses (as) QIBLAT.Well.. if Qiblat is a kind of direction to orient our faces to, and given we're told to be in the house which are told as the Qiblat .. then any direction IS the Qiblat.. which makes the statement / sentence useless and meaningless..
The similitude is the same as this statement
"Go inside your own car and when you're there, remember to always direct your face toward your own car which you're into..."Let's take another variance..
"Go to Shenzhen China, rent an office space there, and make the office as QIBLAT".
It make sense, it means...
"Go to Shenzhen China, rent an office space there, and make the office as Headquarter/Gathering Point".Let's get back now to the verse
"Settle your people in Egypt in houses and MAKE THE HOUSES QIBLATAN"
it means..
"Settle your people in Egypt in houses and MAKE THE HOUSES AS THE GATHERING POINT/HEADQUARTER "For easier logistic distribution, coordination and management as shortly after this we shall leave Egypt altogether... which will be very hard to do if we're spread all over Egypt....
Again this is the same as another example in daily life..
"Before we leave to Bahamas for vacation, let's make the Airport as our Qiblat, we meet up / gather around there and then we all go to Bahamas altogether"...Salam / Peace
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And We inspired to Moses and his brother, "Settle your people in Egypt in houses and MAKE THE HOUSES QIBLATAN and uphold the commandment/commitment (Salata) and give good tidings to the believers.
(1087)This has been discussed here before..
This is the key verse which explain what "QIBLAT" really means...So let's imagine we're among "Moses people" as told in that verse..
We're told to stay put in our houses and make our own houses (as) QIBLAT.Well.. if Qiblat is a kind of direction to orient our faces to, and given we're told to be in the house which are told as the Qiblat .. then any direction IS the Qiblat.. which makes the statement / sentence useless and meaningless..
The similitude is the same as this statement
"Go inside your own car and when you're there, remember to always direct your face toward your own car which you're into..."Let's take another variance..
"Go to Shenzhen China, rent an office space there, and make the office as QIBLAT".
It make sense, it means...
"Go to Shenzhen China, rent an office space there, and make the office as Headquarter/Gathering Point".Let's get back now to the verse
"Settle your people in Egypt in houses and MAKE THE HOUSES QIBLATAN"
it means..
"Settle your people in Egypt in houses and MAKE THE HOUSES AS THE GATHERING POINT/HEADQUARTER "For easier logistic distribution, coordination and management as shortly after this we shall leave Egypt altogether... which will be very hard to do if we're spread all over Egypt....
Again this is the same as another example in daily life..
"Before we leave to Bahamas for vacation, let's make the Airport as our Qiblat, we meet up / gather around there and then we all go to Bahamas altogether"...Salam / Peace
Selam Jafar,
So we are in agreement that Qibla means gathering point/focal point. If this is the case, then it can be translated as giving a Qibla (focal point) which is pleasing. And face yourself towards "the inviolable institution of obedience" wherever you are, you shall set yourselves towards it. Gosh why do I still feel confused... Sorry for my stupidity... 1000 things on my mind...
But the Qibla was set just to distinguish the followers from the ones who didn't...
Peace... (
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Peace Ayman,
Peace brother Progressive1993,
It is great to see you on Free-minds. It has been a while for me.
Thanks. I have been absent for way too long before this. It's good to be back!
I agree that the accuracy of my translation of al-masjid al-haram can be improved. I have since changed my translation to "the inviolable institution of obedience". This is very close to your understanding of "system" but is more specific. An institution of obdience is not just any system but is a system of authority that results in obedience. So this is essentially the system of authority that we should not violate.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
I see. I thought of it as an institution as well. Sounds good. I need to fully revisit this issue, but the concept as an inviolable institution of obedience which is a state in which we follow God's commandments/laws seems accurate at the moment.
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Peace Ayman,
Thanks. I have been absent for way too long before this. It's good to be back!
I see. I thought of it as an institution as well. Sounds good. I need to fully revisit this issue, but the concept as an inviolable institution of obedience which is a state in which we follow God's commandments/laws seems accurate at the moment.
Ditto ).
Keep up the good work everyone of pondering on this issue . I certainly am.. xD
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So Bigmo we are in an agreement that facing any direction for prayer is unnecessary, but in the context of chapter 2 verse 144, it was set at a certain position at that time to distinguish the muslims from the unbelievers right? But then... this is kind of going against what other's (myself included) have translated as the "sacred mosque". This will obviously have to apply to us then... no? Or are we now saying that it was only for Muhammed at the time and really, it doesn't matter which direction, as like the verse describing the fools who question why you are not facing the direction of the Qibla... when really God is everywhere.
Peace bro )
The Meccans probably had issues regarding the Qibla as Mecca meant a lot for them. Perhaps the Koran as trying to distingush between those who believed in Muhammad for his mesage and those who followed him because he was from their homeland. The idea of facing towards prayers is a strong raditions among the Jews also. The Jews probably wanted to claim that Muhammad was trying to steal their Qibla or something or perhaps the Meccans said to him why should we pray where the Jews pray. It probably had something to do with paganism in Mecca and the Ka'ba. Anyways its not a real concern to me nor is it for the Koran. Mecca and haj has always been political in Islamic history and this is how I see the verses about Qibla. But for us to understand the verse we need to look at the Judaic tradition as the Koran refers to that when talking about facing the Qibla.
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A focal point is fine but there is a problem with "setting yourself towards an institution of obedience". It wouldn't make sense with 2144.
A problem I see is why would the Prophet, who is already set towards obedience be searching the sky for a "focal point"? A focal point for what? You don't need a focal point to be set towards obedience, especially the Prophet himself, or am I missing something?
We see the shifting of your face towards the sky, We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do. (2144)
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Selam Jafar,
So we are in agreement that Qibla means gathering point/focal point. If this is the case, then it can be translated as giving a Qibla (focal point) which is pleasing. And face yourself towards "the inviolable institution of obedience" wherever you are, you shall set yourselves towards it. Gosh why do I still feel confused... Sorry for my stupidity... 1000 things on my mind...
But the Qibla was set just to distinguish the followers from the ones who didn't...
Setting a Qibla on certain entity has many variances of implication... it depends...
"Face yourselves" can also meant "Set your focus/objective on".. or "Gather there" or "Report to there" or "Receive Further Instruction From There" and many other things..That's why I put forward "Headquarter", "Home Base" and "Capital" as alternative comparison...
In 1087, Qibla there meant "Homebase" or "Place to gather".
The objective Easier coordination, logistic distribution and management.. as they're preparing for a long journey out from Egypt..The habits of 'facing Jerusalem' upon praying/meditating/deep thinking was initially started by the Jews during their captivity as slaves in Babylon. The objective... remembering that they originated from that place and expression of longing to be 'free once more' and to return to that place at some point in the future.
This is evident in the narrative found in the "Book Of Daniel"..
It's an 'expression'.. not related at all to being 'good' or 'bad'...
Everybody might have a longing to return back to their homeland... wherever it might be..For example Chinese sold as slave to america in 17th / 18th century might develop a habit of facing towards western direction for self comfort and build hope that they were once a free man and their home lies across the pacific ocean... and they're hoping to be free again in the future and returned to their homeland...
Salam / Peace
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A focal point is fine but there is a problem with "setting yourself towards an institution of obedience". It wouldn't make sense with 2144.
A problem I see is why would the Prophet, who is already set towards obedience be searching the sky for a "focal point"? A focal point for what? You don't need a focal point to be set towards obedience, especially the Prophet himself, or am I missing something?
We see the shifting of your face towards the sky, We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do. (2144)
He is "shifting his face to the sky" because he is looking for an answer from God. Al masjid al haram being a physical building "wouldn't make sense with 2144" because it is impossible to go through life facing a physical building WHEREVER we are and WHEREVER we start/go out.
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A focal point is fine but there is a problem with "setting yourself towards an institution of obedience". It wouldn't make sense with 2144.
A problem I see is why would the Prophet, who is already set towards obedience be searching the sky for a "focal point"? A focal point for what? You don't need a focal point to be set towards obedience, especially the Prophet himself, or am I missing something?
We see the shifting of your face towards the sky, We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do. (2144)
But then Mr Q how could you face a temple wherever you are... unless it was in the context for the prophets followers to physically face it... which would mean they would have to literally be seeing the temple.... but still you couldn't do that at all times if it was out of sight... and you probably wouldn't have a good idea where it would be after a certain distance....
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Well if you want to be that literal of course it wouldn't make sense, but then again it only doesn't make sense if one doesn't see observing salat as a prayer. If one simply understands salat as a form of prayer, then facing towards the Temple during prayer is not unreasonable nor unheard of in the previous Scriptures. It's a common thing.
And lets not go into you can't "face" it because the Earth is round argument etc. We can't make a literal argument in one sentence, "attacking" a point of view, then turn around and make a figurative argument "promoting" another all while talking about the same word!
And this is not a salat debate either. I am only stating IF salat is prayer, then it can be simply understood as the direction of it, where as IF salat is not a prayer and something else, then the instructions in the verse still is a little odd because there are numerous and many other verses that already instruct those who acknowledge God to live their lives accordingly and to always be God-conscious, so to have this particular verse be a particular "command" is redundant because the prophet and his followers were already "facing" towards obedience everywhere, all the time.
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peace/salaam all,
The verse says "in" (Arabic fi) the sky, not "to" (Arabic ila) the sky. To me, it reads like an idiom, meaning one is directionless/aimless, no focus/goal/plan/etc. But even if it is not an idiom, it doesn't matter in my view.
A much missed point is the fact that the traditional understanding of "qiblah" as "prayer direction" / "focal point (as in physical direction)" is dealt a critical blow by 2145, as it requires the people of the book to have a minimum of two different "qiblah" or "prayer directions", i.e. Jews pray one direction, Christians pray another.
Most commentators either do not realise this or ignore this problem. AFAIK no evidence of two such directions exist, but it is necessary for the verse to make sense.
That's the thing about Quran, if you try to force an understanding into it, it inevitably results in contradictions/problems/etc. Of course, "qiblah" as "prayer direction" has other problems, but this is one of the more significant.
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Peace,
Well if you want to be that literal of course it wouldn't make sense, but then again it only doesn't make sense if one doesn't see observing salat as a prayer. If one simply understands salat as a form of prayer, then facing towards the Temple during prayer is not unreasonable nor unheard of in the previous Scriptures. It's a common thing.
Please show me where it says that we need a to face a certain direction during salat. Morevover, show me where salat is even brought into connection with the qiblah.
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Well if you want to be that literal of course it wouldn't make sense, but then again it only doesn't make sense if one doesn't see observing salat as a prayer. If one simply understands salat as a form of prayer, then facing towards the Temple during prayer is not unreasonable nor unheard of in the previous Scriptures. It's a common thing.
And lets not go into you can't "face" it because the Earth is round argument etc. We can't make a literal argument in one sentence, "attacking" a point of view, then turn around and make a figurative argument "promoting" another all while talking about the same word!
And this is not a salat debate either. I am only stating IF salat is prayer, then it can be simply understood as the direction of it, where as IF salat is not a prayer and something else, then the instructions in the verse still is a little odd because there are numerous and many other verses that already instruct those who acknowledge God to live their lives accordingly and to always be God-conscious, so to have this particular verse be a particular "command" is redundant because the prophet and his followers were already "facing" towards obedience everywhere, all the time.
True, and I always thought of as Salat as prayer.... but to be honest, without a compass... how would you know which direction to face when praying? Surely God doesn't expect you to have devices just to know where to pray.. this is what bugs me. Excuse me for saying this, it's only because I always have prayed in any direction as I pleased because I understood that God was everywhere...
Thanks
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peace/salaam all,
The verse says "in" (Arabic fi) the sky, not "to" (Arabic ila) the sky. To me, it reads like an idiom, meaning one is directionless/aimless, no focus/goal/plan/etc. But even if it is not an idiom, it doesn't matter in my view.
A much missed point is the fact that the traditional understanding of "qiblah" as "prayer direction" / "focal point (as in physical direction)" is dealt a critical blow by 2145, as it requires the people of the book to have a minimum of two different "qiblah" or "prayer directions", i.e. Jews pray one direction, Christians pray another.
Most commentators either do not realise this or ignore this problem. AFAIK no evidence of two such directions exist, but it is necessary for the verse to make sense.
That's the thing about Quran, if you try to force an understanding into it, it inevitably results in contradictions/problems/etc. Of course, "qiblah" as "prayer direction" has other problems, but this is one of the more significant.
Sorry Wakas, what exactly is your point that you are trying to make? (brain's blank)... Please provide me just an ounce of knowledge on the part about jews praying one direction and christians praying another and how it provides a blow to 2.145. What is your translation of that verse using your skills in arabic (as I have not much luck with arabic since both languages that I kinda know from parents (maltese and turkish) are not even close..) ).
Sorry if I'm asking too much...
Peace
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salaam/peace sushi,
What I meant is
"And if you come to those who have been given the book/decree with every sign they will not follow your qiblah, nor will you follow their qiblah, nor will some of them even follow each others qiblah...
ergo amongst those who have been given the kitab/decree/book, they have their own qiblahs.
So, assuming a minimum of two different ones, this means amongst those who have been given the kitab/book/decree, there is two different qiblah/directions.
In order to resolve this problem, one could say Jews pray in one direction, Christians another, which seems the most obvious solution, but the problem is there is no evidence of this in history AFAIK. One is free to come up with any solution, as long as they can explain away two different qiblah amongst the people of the kitab/decree/book.
AFAIK no-one who takes "qiblah" as "prayer direction" has ever came up with a reasonable solution. I believe bro Mazhar attempted a fix, as he realised the problem, but I did not find it convincing in the least.
qiblah basically means focus/direction, it stems from what one looks at or pays attention to, and usually when one does this, one is facing that thing, hence its meanings.
Interestingly, there were many interpretations of the 2142-150 verses within the first 200 hundred years of Islamic history. This is fact. You can read this in http//www.youquran.com/Ubaid-nasikh-wa-mansukh-Burton.pdfI recommend pondering upon these signs/verses.
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salaam/peace sushi,
What I meant is
"And if you come to those who have been given the book/decree with every sign they will not follow your qiblah, nor will you follow their qiblah, nor will some of them even follow each others qiblah...
ergo amongst those who have been given the kitab/decree/book, they have their own qiblahs.
So, assuming a minimum of two different ones, this means amongst those who have been given the kitab/book/decree, there is two different qiblah/directions.
In order to resolve this problem, one could say Jews pray in one direction, Christians another, which seems the most obvious solution, but the problem is there is no evidence of this in history AFAIK. One is free to come up with any solution, as long as they can explain away two different qiblah amongst the people of the kitab/decree/book.
AFAIK no-one who takes "qiblah" as "prayer direction" has ever came up with a reasonable solution. I believe bro Mazhar attempted a fix, as he realised the problem, but I did not find it convincing in the least.
qiblah basically means focus/direction, it stems from what one looks at or pays attention to, and usually when one does this, one is facing that thing, hence its meanings.
Interestingly, there were many interpretations of the 2142-150 verses within the first 200 hundred years of Islamic history. This is fact. You can read this in http//www.youquran.com/Ubaid-nasikh-wa-mansukh-Burton.pdfI recommend pondering upon these signs/verses.
I think the people of the Book here is talking about the different Jewish sects who probably differed about prayer direction since the Torah is not explicit about it. The Pharisees were the ones who emphasized Jerusalem but other Jewish sects might have differed.
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salaam/peace sushi,
What I meant is
"And if you come to those who have been given the book/decree with every sign they will not follow your qiblah, nor will you follow their qiblah, nor will some of them even follow each others qiblah...
ergo amongst those who have been given the kitab/decree/book, they have their own qiblahs.
So, assuming a minimum of two different ones, this means amongst those who have been given the kitab/book/decree, there is two different qiblah/directions.
In order to resolve this problem, one could say Jews pray in one direction, Christians another, which seems the most obvious solution, but the problem is there is no evidence of this in history AFAIK. One is free to come up with any solution, as long as they can explain away two different qiblah amongst the people of the kitab/decree/book.
AFAIK no-one who takes "qiblah" as "prayer direction" has ever came up with a reasonable solution. I believe bro Mazhar attempted a fix, as he realised the problem, but I did not find it convincing in the least.
qiblah basically means focus/direction, it stems from what one looks at or pays attention to, and usually when one does this, one is facing that thing, hence its meanings.
Interestingly, there were many interpretations of the 2142-150 verses within the first 200 hundred years of Islamic history. This is fact. You can read this in http//www.youquran.com/Ubaid-nasikh-wa-mansukh-Burton.pdfI recommend pondering upon these signs/verses.
Wow Wakas did you read ALL of it |? I kinda bumped into a part about stoning then became confused because I thought it was saying how the Prophet requested stoning to be done to some people... did i read it wrong?? As said the Qur'an mentions nothing about this...
Out of interest Wakas, for praying, do you face a certain direction? I'm assuming you don't based on the evidence provided... neither do I but sometimes I still feel niggled as one sunni said to me if I don't face Mecca my prayer is void ...
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Wow Wakas did you read ALL of it |? I kinda bumped into a part about stoning then became confused because I thought it was saying how the Prophet requested stoning to be done to some people... did i read it wrong?? As said the Qur'an mentions nothing about this...
Out of interest Wakas, for praying, do you face a certain direction? I'm assuming you don't based on the evidence provided... neither do I but sometimes I still feel niggled as one sunni said to me if I don't face Mecca my prayer is void ...
That is the legacy of Sunni and Shia Islam and what it leaves a person with. But verse 2.177 and 2.115 should be our way of thought and not what Sunnism and Shiasm taught us.
