Prayer Direction
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A focal point is fine but there is a problem with "setting yourself towards an institution of obedience". It wouldn't make sense with 2144.
A problem I see is why would the Prophet, who is already set towards obedience be searching the sky for a "focal point"? A focal point for what? You don't need a focal point to be set towards obedience, especially the Prophet himself, or am I missing something?
We see the shifting of your face towards the sky, We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do. (2144)
He is "shifting his face to the sky" because he is looking for an answer from God. Al masjid al haram being a physical building "wouldn't make sense with 2144" because it is impossible to go through life facing a physical building WHEREVER we are and WHEREVER we start/go out.
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A focal point is fine but there is a problem with "setting yourself towards an institution of obedience". It wouldn't make sense with 2144.
A problem I see is why would the Prophet, who is already set towards obedience be searching the sky for a "focal point"? A focal point for what? You don't need a focal point to be set towards obedience, especially the Prophet himself, or am I missing something?
We see the shifting of your face towards the sky, We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do. (2144)
But then Mr Q how could you face a temple wherever you are... unless it was in the context for the prophets followers to physically face it... which would mean they would have to literally be seeing the temple.... but still you couldn't do that at all times if it was out of sight... and you probably wouldn't have a good idea where it would be after a certain distance....
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Well if you want to be that literal of course it wouldn't make sense, but then again it only doesn't make sense if one doesn't see observing salat as a prayer. If one simply understands salat as a form of prayer, then facing towards the Temple during prayer is not unreasonable nor unheard of in the previous Scriptures. It's a common thing.
And lets not go into you can't "face" it because the Earth is round argument etc. We can't make a literal argument in one sentence, "attacking" a point of view, then turn around and make a figurative argument "promoting" another all while talking about the same word!
And this is not a salat debate either. I am only stating IF salat is prayer, then it can be simply understood as the direction of it, where as IF salat is not a prayer and something else, then the instructions in the verse still is a little odd because there are numerous and many other verses that already instruct those who acknowledge God to live their lives accordingly and to always be God-conscious, so to have this particular verse be a particular "command" is redundant because the prophet and his followers were already "facing" towards obedience everywhere, all the time.
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peace/salaam all,
The verse says "in" (Arabic fi) the sky, not "to" (Arabic ila) the sky. To me, it reads like an idiom, meaning one is directionless/aimless, no focus/goal/plan/etc. But even if it is not an idiom, it doesn't matter in my view.
A much missed point is the fact that the traditional understanding of "qiblah" as "prayer direction" / "focal point (as in physical direction)" is dealt a critical blow by 2145, as it requires the people of the book to have a minimum of two different "qiblah" or "prayer directions", i.e. Jews pray one direction, Christians pray another.
Most commentators either do not realise this or ignore this problem. AFAIK no evidence of two such directions exist, but it is necessary for the verse to make sense.
That's the thing about Quran, if you try to force an understanding into it, it inevitably results in contradictions/problems/etc. Of course, "qiblah" as "prayer direction" has other problems, but this is one of the more significant.
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Peace,
Well if you want to be that literal of course it wouldn't make sense, but then again it only doesn't make sense if one doesn't see observing salat as a prayer. If one simply understands salat as a form of prayer, then facing towards the Temple during prayer is not unreasonable nor unheard of in the previous Scriptures. It's a common thing.
Please show me where it says that we need a to face a certain direction during salat. Morevover, show me where salat is even brought into connection with the qiblah.
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Well if you want to be that literal of course it wouldn't make sense, but then again it only doesn't make sense if one doesn't see observing salat as a prayer. If one simply understands salat as a form of prayer, then facing towards the Temple during prayer is not unreasonable nor unheard of in the previous Scriptures. It's a common thing.
And lets not go into you can't "face" it because the Earth is round argument etc. We can't make a literal argument in one sentence, "attacking" a point of view, then turn around and make a figurative argument "promoting" another all while talking about the same word!
And this is not a salat debate either. I am only stating IF salat is prayer, then it can be simply understood as the direction of it, where as IF salat is not a prayer and something else, then the instructions in the verse still is a little odd because there are numerous and many other verses that already instruct those who acknowledge God to live their lives accordingly and to always be God-conscious, so to have this particular verse be a particular "command" is redundant because the prophet and his followers were already "facing" towards obedience everywhere, all the time.
True, and I always thought of as Salat as prayer.... but to be honest, without a compass... how would you know which direction to face when praying? Surely God doesn't expect you to have devices just to know where to pray.. this is what bugs me. Excuse me for saying this, it's only because I always have prayed in any direction as I pleased because I understood that God was everywhere...
Thanks
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peace/salaam all,
The verse says "in" (Arabic fi) the sky, not "to" (Arabic ila) the sky. To me, it reads like an idiom, meaning one is directionless/aimless, no focus/goal/plan/etc. But even if it is not an idiom, it doesn't matter in my view.
A much missed point is the fact that the traditional understanding of "qiblah" as "prayer direction" / "focal point (as in physical direction)" is dealt a critical blow by 2145, as it requires the people of the book to have a minimum of two different "qiblah" or "prayer directions", i.e. Jews pray one direction, Christians pray another.
Most commentators either do not realise this or ignore this problem. AFAIK no evidence of two such directions exist, but it is necessary for the verse to make sense.
That's the thing about Quran, if you try to force an understanding into it, it inevitably results in contradictions/problems/etc. Of course, "qiblah" as "prayer direction" has other problems, but this is one of the more significant.
Sorry Wakas, what exactly is your point that you are trying to make? (brain's blank)... Please provide me just an ounce of knowledge on the part about jews praying one direction and christians praying another and how it provides a blow to 2.145. What is your translation of that verse using your skills in arabic (as I have not much luck with arabic since both languages that I kinda know from parents (maltese and turkish) are not even close..) ).
Sorry if I'm asking too much...
Peace
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salaam/peace sushi,
What I meant is
"And if you come to those who have been given the book/decree with every sign they will not follow your qiblah, nor will you follow their qiblah, nor will some of them even follow each others qiblah...
ergo amongst those who have been given the kitab/decree/book, they have their own qiblahs.
So, assuming a minimum of two different ones, this means amongst those who have been given the kitab/book/decree, there is two different qiblah/directions.
In order to resolve this problem, one could say Jews pray in one direction, Christians another, which seems the most obvious solution, but the problem is there is no evidence of this in history AFAIK. One is free to come up with any solution, as long as they can explain away two different qiblah amongst the people of the kitab/decree/book.
AFAIK no-one who takes "qiblah" as "prayer direction" has ever came up with a reasonable solution. I believe bro Mazhar attempted a fix, as he realised the problem, but I did not find it convincing in the least.
qiblah basically means focus/direction, it stems from what one looks at or pays attention to, and usually when one does this, one is facing that thing, hence its meanings.
Interestingly, there were many interpretations of the 2142-150 verses within the first 200 hundred years of Islamic history. This is fact. You can read this in http//www.youquran.com/Ubaid-nasikh-wa-mansukh-Burton.pdfI recommend pondering upon these signs/verses.
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salaam/peace sushi,
What I meant is
"And if you come to those who have been given the book/decree with every sign they will not follow your qiblah, nor will you follow their qiblah, nor will some of them even follow each others qiblah...
ergo amongst those who have been given the kitab/decree/book, they have their own qiblahs.
So, assuming a minimum of two different ones, this means amongst those who have been given the kitab/book/decree, there is two different qiblah/directions.
In order to resolve this problem, one could say Jews pray in one direction, Christians another, which seems the most obvious solution, but the problem is there is no evidence of this in history AFAIK. One is free to come up with any solution, as long as they can explain away two different qiblah amongst the people of the kitab/decree/book.
AFAIK no-one who takes "qiblah" as "prayer direction" has ever came up with a reasonable solution. I believe bro Mazhar attempted a fix, as he realised the problem, but I did not find it convincing in the least.
qiblah basically means focus/direction, it stems from what one looks at or pays attention to, and usually when one does this, one is facing that thing, hence its meanings.
Interestingly, there were many interpretations of the 2142-150 verses within the first 200 hundred years of Islamic history. This is fact. You can read this in http//www.youquran.com/Ubaid-nasikh-wa-mansukh-Burton.pdfI recommend pondering upon these signs/verses.
I think the people of the Book here is talking about the different Jewish sects who probably differed about prayer direction since the Torah is not explicit about it. The Pharisees were the ones who emphasized Jerusalem but other Jewish sects might have differed.
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salaam/peace sushi,
What I meant is
"And if you come to those who have been given the book/decree with every sign they will not follow your qiblah, nor will you follow their qiblah, nor will some of them even follow each others qiblah...
ergo amongst those who have been given the kitab/decree/book, they have their own qiblahs.
So, assuming a minimum of two different ones, this means amongst those who have been given the kitab/book/decree, there is two different qiblah/directions.
In order to resolve this problem, one could say Jews pray in one direction, Christians another, which seems the most obvious solution, but the problem is there is no evidence of this in history AFAIK. One is free to come up with any solution, as long as they can explain away two different qiblah amongst the people of the kitab/decree/book.
AFAIK no-one who takes "qiblah" as "prayer direction" has ever came up with a reasonable solution. I believe bro Mazhar attempted a fix, as he realised the problem, but I did not find it convincing in the least.
qiblah basically means focus/direction, it stems from what one looks at or pays attention to, and usually when one does this, one is facing that thing, hence its meanings.
Interestingly, there were many interpretations of the 2142-150 verses within the first 200 hundred years of Islamic history. This is fact. You can read this in http//www.youquran.com/Ubaid-nasikh-wa-mansukh-Burton.pdfI recommend pondering upon these signs/verses.
Wow Wakas did you read ALL of it |? I kinda bumped into a part about stoning then became confused because I thought it was saying how the Prophet requested stoning to be done to some people... did i read it wrong?? As said the Qur'an mentions nothing about this...
Out of interest Wakas, for praying, do you face a certain direction? I'm assuming you don't based on the evidence provided... neither do I but sometimes I still feel niggled as one sunni said to me if I don't face Mecca my prayer is void ...
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Wow Wakas did you read ALL of it |? I kinda bumped into a part about stoning then became confused because I thought it was saying how the Prophet requested stoning to be done to some people... did i read it wrong?? As said the Qur'an mentions nothing about this...
Out of interest Wakas, for praying, do you face a certain direction? I'm assuming you don't based on the evidence provided... neither do I but sometimes I still feel niggled as one sunni said to me if I don't face Mecca my prayer is void ...
That is the legacy of Sunni and Shia Islam and what it leaves a person with. But verse 2.177 and 2.115 should be our way of thought and not what Sunnism and Shiasm taught us.
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That is the legacy of Sunni and Shia Islam and what it leaves a person with. But verse 2.177 and 2.115 should be our way of thought and not what Sunnism and Shiasm taught us.
Just checked those verses. I agree with you Bigmo... just I'm hoping the part about stoning isn't true... i'm like billions against that being done to ANYONE as a punishment.
But yes... Allah is east and west... anywhere you look he is there .
Peace
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Just checked those verses. I agree with you Bigmo... just I'm hoping the part about stoning isn't true... i'm like billions against that being done to ANYONE as a punishment.
But yes... Allah is east and west... anywhere you look he is there ).
Peace
What part about stoning?
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The link that Wakas gave at the top of this page... The pdf page 55-58ish.... maybe because i was skimming but something on the lines of the Sunna and what the prophet allegedly did...
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas
'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."
Saheeh Muslim
Book 017, Number 4194
'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.Narrated 'Aisha Sad bin Abi Waqqas and 'Abu bin Zam'a quarreled over a boy. Sad said, "O Allah's Apostle! This boy is the son of my brother ('Utba bin Abi Waqqas) who took a promise from me that I would take him as he was his (illegal) son. Look at him and see whom he resembles." 'Abu bin Zam'a said, "O Allah's Apostle! This is my brother and was born on my father's bed from his slave-girl." Allah's Apostle cast a look at the boy and found definite resemblance to 'Utba and then said, "The boy is for you, O 'Abu bin Zam'a. The child goes to the owner of the bed and the adulterer gets nothing but the stones (despair, i.e. to be stoned to death). Then the Prophet said, "O Sauda bint Zama! Screen yourself from this boy." So, Sauda never saw him again.
Sahih Bukhari 334421
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani A bedouin came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." His opponent got up and said, "He is right. Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The bedouin said, "My son was a laborer working for this man, and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that my son should be stoned to death; so, in lieu of that, I paid a ransom of one hundred sheep and a slave girl to save my son. Then I asked the learned scholars who said, "Your son has to be lashed one-hundred lashes and has to be exiled for one year." The Prophet said, "No doubt I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to go back to you, and your son will get a hundred lashes and one year exile." He then addressed somebody, "O Unais! go to the wife of this (man) and stone her to death" So, Unais went and stoned her to death.
Sahih Bukhari 349860
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani A bedouin came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's apostle! I ask you by Allah to judge My case according to Allah's Laws." His opponent, who was more learned than he, said, "Yes, judge between us according to Allah's Laws, and allow me to speak." Allah's Apostle said, "Speak." He (i .e. the bedouin or the other man) said, "My son was working as a laborer for this (man) and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that it was obligatory that my son should be stoned to death, so in lieu of that I ransomed my son by paying one hundred sheep and a slave girl. Then I asked the religious scholars about it, and they informed me that my son must be lashed one hundred lashes, and be exiled for one year, and the wife of this (man) must be stoned to death." Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to be returned to you, your son is to receive a hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. You, Unais, go to the wife of this (man) and if she confesses her guilt, stone her to death." Unais went to that woman next morning and she confessed. Allah's Apostle ordered that she be stoned to death.
Sahih Bukhari 350885
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."
Sahih Bukhari 456829
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani A bedouin came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's apostle! I ask you by Allah to judge My case according to Allah's Laws." His opponent, who was more learned than he, said, "Yes, judge between us according to Allah's Laws, and allow me to speak." Allah's Apostle said, "Speak." He (i .e. the bedouin or the other man) said, "My son was working as a laborer for this (man) and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that it was obligatory that my son should be stoned to death, so in lieu of that I ransomed my son by paying one hundred sheep and a slave girl. Then I asked the religious scholars about it, and they informed me that my son must be lashed one hundred lashes, and be exiled for one year, and the wife of this (man) must be stoned to death." Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to be returned to you, your son is to receive a hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. You, Unais, go to the wife of this (man) and if she confesses her guilt, stone her to death." Unais went to that woman next morning and she confessed. Allah's Apostle ordered that she be stoned to death.
Sahih Bukhari 350885
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."
Sahih Bukhari 456829
Ibn Mardawayh reported that Hudhayfah said "Umar said to me ?How many verses are contained in the chapter of al-Ahzab?? I said, ?72 or 73 verses.? He said it was almost as long as the chapter of the Cow, which contains 287 verses, and in it there was the verse of stoning." hmm
Al-Muttaqi ?Ali bin Husam al-Din in his book ?Mukhtasar Kanz al-?Ummal? printed on the margin of Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 2, p. 2, in his hadith about chapter 33
Zirr ibn Hubaish reported "Ubayy ibn Ka'b said to me, 'What is the extent of Suratul-Ahzab?' I said, 'Seventy, or seventy-three verses'. He said, 'Yet it used to be equal to Suratul-Baqarah and in it we recited the verse of stoning'. I said, 'And what is the verse of stoning'? He replied, 'The fornicators among the married men (ash-shaikh) and married women (ash-shaikhah), stone them as an exemplary punishment from Allah, and Allah is Mighty and Wise."' hmm
As-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524
Saheeh Muslim
Book 008, Number 3421
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur'an (and recited by the Muslims).
hmmApparently they are telling us that there was a verse about stoning the adulterer that has been lost. Of course the clerics do not want to reveal these kind of information to Muslims but it shows how desperate they became when they could not find support from the Koran.
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Narrated Ibn 'Abbas
'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."
Saheeh Muslim
Book 017, Number 4194
'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.Narrated 'Aisha Sad bin Abi Waqqas and 'Abu bin Zam'a quarreled over a boy. Sad said, "O Allah's Apostle! This boy is the son of my brother ('Utba bin Abi Waqqas) who took a promise from me that I would take him as he was his (illegal) son. Look at him and see whom he resembles." 'Abu bin Zam'a said, "O Allah's Apostle! This is my brother and was born on my father's bed from his slave-girl." Allah's Apostle cast a look at the boy and found definite resemblance to 'Utba and then said, "The boy is for you, O 'Abu bin Zam'a. The child goes to the owner of the bed and the adulterer gets nothing but the stones (despair, i.e. to be stoned to death). Then the Prophet said, "O Sauda bint Zama! Screen yourself from this boy." So, Sauda never saw him again.
Sahih Bukhari 334421
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani A bedouin came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." His opponent got up and said, "He is right. Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The bedouin said, "My son was a laborer working for this man, and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that my son should be stoned to death; so, in lieu of that, I paid a ransom of one hundred sheep and a slave girl to save my son. Then I asked the learned scholars who said, "Your son has to be lashed one-hundred lashes and has to be exiled for one year." The Prophet said, "No doubt I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to go back to you, and your son will get a hundred lashes and one year exile." He then addressed somebody, "O Unais! go to the wife of this (man) and stone her to death" So, Unais went and stoned her to death.
Sahih Bukhari 349860
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani A bedouin came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's apostle! I ask you by Allah to judge My case according to Allah's Laws." His opponent, who was more learned than he, said, "Yes, judge between us according to Allah's Laws, and allow me to speak." Allah's Apostle said, "Speak." He (i .e. the bedouin or the other man) said, "My son was working as a laborer for this (man) and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that it was obligatory that my son should be stoned to death, so in lieu of that I ransomed my son by paying one hundred sheep and a slave girl. Then I asked the religious scholars about it, and they informed me that my son must be lashed one hundred lashes, and be exiled for one year, and the wife of this (man) must be stoned to death." Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to be returned to you, your son is to receive a hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. You, Unais, go to the wife of this (man) and if she confesses her guilt, stone her to death." Unais went to that woman next morning and she confessed. Allah's Apostle ordered that she be stoned to death.
Sahih Bukhari 350885
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."
Sahih Bukhari 456829
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani A bedouin came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's apostle! I ask you by Allah to judge My case according to Allah's Laws." His opponent, who was more learned than he, said, "Yes, judge between us according to Allah's Laws, and allow me to speak." Allah's Apostle said, "Speak." He (i .e. the bedouin or the other man) said, "My son was working as a laborer for this (man) and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that it was obligatory that my son should be stoned to death, so in lieu of that I ransomed my son by paying one hundred sheep and a slave girl. Then I asked the religious scholars about it, and they informed me that my son must be lashed one hundred lashes, and be exiled for one year, and the wife of this (man) must be stoned to death." Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to be returned to you, your son is to receive a hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. You, Unais, go to the wife of this (man) and if she confesses her guilt, stone her to death." Unais went to that woman next morning and she confessed. Allah's Apostle ordered that she be stoned to death.
Sahih Bukhari 350885
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."
Sahih Bukhari 456829
Ibn Mardawayh reported that Hudhayfah said "Umar said to me ?How many verses are contained in the chapter of al-Ahzab?? I said, ?72 or 73 verses.? He said it was almost as long as the chapter of the Cow, which contains 287 verses, and in it there was the verse of stoning." hmm
Al-Muttaqi ?Ali bin Husam al-Din in his book ?Mukhtasar Kanz al-?Ummal? printed on the margin of Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 2, p. 2, in his hadith about chapter 33
Zirr ibn Hubaish reported "Ubayy ibn Ka'b said to me, 'What is the extent of Suratul-Ahzab?' I said, 'Seventy, or seventy-three verses'. He said, 'Yet it used to be equal to Suratul-Baqarah and in it we recited the verse of stoning'. I said, 'And what is the verse of stoning'? He replied, 'The fornicators among the married men (ash-shaikh) and married women (ash-shaikhah), stone them as an exemplary punishment from Allah, and Allah is Mighty and Wise."' hmm
As-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524
Saheeh Muslim
Book 008, Number 3421
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur'an (and recited by the Muslims).
hmmApparently they are telling us that there was a verse about stoning the adulterer that has been lost. Of course the clerics do not want to reveal these kind of information to Muslims but it shows how desperate they became when they could not find support from the Koran.
How shameful!!! These must be clear fabrications! Allah would never allow such a punishment... It sickens me to think that these are written in hadiths!!! Authentic??? SAHEEH?! Argh..... yeah sure... REAL authentic.. just as authentic as how there are areas suggesting jews to be killed and how snakes can complete an abortion.... -sighs- may Allah guide us all...
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The verse says "in" (Arabic fi) the sky, not "to" (Arabic ila) the sky. To me, it reads like an idiom, meaning one is directionless/aimless, no focus/goal/plan/etc. But even if it is not an idiom, it doesn't matter in my view.
You're right!
Nice observation...
ThanksSalam / Peace
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Wow Wakas did you read ALL of it |? I kinda bumped into a part about stoning then became confused because I thought it was saying how the Prophet requested stoning to be done to some people... did i read it wrong?? As said the Qur'an mentions nothing about this...
Out of interest Wakas, for praying, do you face a certain direction? I'm assuming you don't based on the evidence provided... neither do I but sometimes I still feel niggled as one sunni said to me if I don't face Mecca my prayer is void ...
I have not read all that book, but please note it is not only Quran based, it incorporates traditions etc which may or may not be accurate.
When I pray as in "dua" I do not face any specific direction. If I am in the company of those who perform Traditional salat, as in Traditional prayer, then yes I would face the same direction as them, but I do not regard salat as prayer. My view and traditional view has things in common, but it is not identical, please see http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
I think the people of the Book here is talking about the different Jewish sects who probably differed about prayer direction since the Torah is not explicit about it. The Pharisees were the ones who emphasized Jerusalem but other Jewish sects might have differed.
It may well be, but having actual evidence is another matter.
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Salaam to all peace
Sorry to all Ive been Away from Internet few days and i posted idolatry and it probably caused some reactions. last post i wanted to write Humanworshiping not Idolatry (since my english is bit reduced and some words/sentence may not go in Excelent levels sorry my humble apolegize).
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Slw
ROOT SLW as they point
(33433) yuall sends His blessings
(33564) yuallna send blessings
(335610) all Send blessingsisnt the root SLL?
(224021) waalawtun and synagogues
(212511) muallan (as) a place of prayer
(70222) l-mualna those who pray
Lets see now (22313) wa-id' and call
(2619) fa-ud'u so pray
(2682) ud'u Pray
(2692) ud'u Pray
(2702) ud'u PrayDWA OR SALAT?
(3341 adiyakum your adopted sons
(333740) adiyihim (of) their adopted sonsNoun
(753) dawhum their plea
(10101) dawhum Their prayer
(10109) dawhum (of) their call
(21154) dawhum their crywich one? Soorry for mistakes
Anyway respecting be to all Messengers but dont take one above the others, that HUmanworship we should learn from all kinds of people nations minds and basiclly adapt AQuran do each one , because is The Balanced path, the furQan wich containt the guidence for each individual, but anyway thanks for the observation about IDOLATRY..sorry rotfl peace
LET THE MOST WISE GUIDE US INTO ENLIGHMENT sun
Salaam to all group
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Peace all,
2142
My translation The foolish from among the people will say "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say "To the god are the east and the west, he guides whoever wishes, to a straight path."
This verse tells us that "a straight path" can be considered as "a focal point".
Now, "the straight path" is described in details by the god in 6151-153
Say "Come let me recite what your Lord has made unlawful for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and do good to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is evident of it and what is subtle; and do not take the life which God has made forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."
"And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reaches his independence; and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except with what it can bear, and if you speak then be just even if against a relative; and regarding the pledges made to God, you shall observe them. This He has enjoined you that you may remember."
And this is My path, a straight one . "So follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path. That is what He has enjoined you to that you may be righteous."Furthermore, in 2150 we see that when we are always focused on the recommendations / restrictions in 6151-153, nobody can have a case against us except the aggressors (those who want to argue/fight you without any reason). These constitute the mandatory injunction from the god to his followers; it is like minimum requirements.
2150 (my translation)
And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the mandatory injunction. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no case against you, except those of them who are aggressors. You shall not be concerned by them, but be concerned by Me; so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.In conclusion, and considering 2144, I think we can safely say that
Al-qibla = al-masjid al-haram = as-sirat al-moustaqim = 6151-153
The focal point = the mandatory injunction = the straight path = 6151-153And the god knows best. Please advise if you see any contradictions with this reasoning.
Mohamed
