Didn't the writer of the quran know...........?
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Greetings and Peace, all group
There are preconditions to fasting.
- Summer Solstice
- First full moon after the Summer Solstice
Are these preconditions met at the locations in question--can they be witnessed? hmm
It is true that there are different forms of witnessing. Knowledge of an event is not the same as being a percipient witness. What does AQ say on the matter?
2844 And you were not on the western slope when We decreed the command to Moses. You were not a witness.
Not to belabor the point, but it seems that each individual must personally witness (although there are a variety of ways that this can be done).
It seems that what 2184 & 2185 are saying is that those who can't fast for legitimate reasons can make up the fast later OR feed the needy. ALLAH has Provided for everyone and for every need.
4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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If as Farida said and you brothers are saying that then there is no fasting, as you don't witness the ramadhan then, how about the 5 prayers or the 2 prayers (as some people say) if the days are anything up to six months long, arn't all these prayers commanded to be done at certain times of the day aswell, what happens to them?
Do we stop them too.........till the certain part of day appears?
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salaam/peace all,
It is as farida and AH have said, with regards to "witness" the shahr.
Mr Q - it is in project root list
Tay-Waw-Qaf = to be able, be in a position to do something. taaqatun - ability, power, strength. ataaqa (vb. 4) - to be able to do a thing. tawwaqa (vb. 2) - to twist a collar, put a neck-ring on, impose a difficult task on a person, enable, hang around neck, impose, lay upon, encircle. ataaqa (vb. 4) - to be able to do a thing, find extremely hard and difficult to bear, do a thing with great difficulty. taaqat - the utmost that a person can do.
taqah n.f. 2249, 2286
tawwaqa vb. (2) impf. pass. 3180
ataqa vb. (4) impf. act. 2184
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 5, pages 179, 180
And with regards to timings of salat etc the only plural address used, that I know of, is 2458, all other verses which mention sun/timings are singular. The implication being, that your "morning" and "evening" is the timing.
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.... how about the 5 prayers or the 2 prayers (as some people say) if the days are anything up to six months long, arn't all these prayers commanded to be done at certain times of the day aswell, what happens to them?
Do we stop them too.........till the certain part of day appears?
Salaam
As I understand in north poles even though its six months of day or night there are still stages of darkness and lightness depending on the stages of sun, people in those places often see twiglight with day or night so there are two edges of day and night.The quote below explains very well about the times of Salah, which may fit in all parts of the worlds.
From redsulphur1229 @ http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603386.011114 ? (literal translation) ?And establish Prayer at the edges of the day and in proximity to the night (zulfun layl)?
Although the foregoing is a literal translation, ?edges? is often translated as ?two ends? or "two edges". This verse refers only to 2 prescribed Prayer times, namely, the two ?edges? of the day. Despite the fact that this verse is often cited as referring to 3 prescribed times, with many translations translating ?zulfun layl? as ?some hours of the night?, this appears incorrect. The term ?zulfun? is derived from the root ?zalafa? which means ?to bring near, to approach? and ?zulfa? means ?nearness, proximity?. Therefore, ?zulfun? cannot be translated as ?some hours of? but must be a reference to nearness or proximity to something. The term ?layl? means ?night?. Therefore, the phrase ?zulfun layl? means ?near or in proximity to the night?. The words ?edges of the day? means that the Prayer times referred to in this verse occur during daylight hours, once at the beginning of the day and the other at the end, and not at anytime during the night. However, these day times are close to the night, and thus presumably just after sunrise and just before sunset. The ?approach of the night? (or ?proximity of the night?) cannot be a separate prayer time but merely further description of when these ?edges? occur, namely, in proximity or closest to the night.
1778-79 ? ?Observe Prayer at declining and paling of the sun on to the darkness of the night, and recite the Quran at morning (fajr).?
This verse refers to only one time prescribed for Prayer, namely, when the sun begins to decline (which is when it passes its zenith), and therefore, anytime after the zenith (afternoon or evening). Read with 11114, the prayer is to be closer to the sunset time, and is thus a reference to the second ?edge of the day?. Query No mention is made in this verse to Prayer at morning (fajr) to accompany the Quran recitationThe times of Salah has been the subject of discussion in so many threads, maybe the Quraan is addressing different regions according to climate and time zones.
Allah knows best. -
Mr Q - it is in project root list
Tay-Waw-Qaf = to be able, be in a position to do something. taaqatun - ability, power, strength. ataaqa (vb. 4) - to be able to do a thing. tawwaqa (vb. 2) - to twist a collar, put a neck-ring on, impose a difficult task on a person, enable, hang around neck, impose, lay upon, encircle. ataaqa (vb. 4) - to be able to do a thing, find extremely hard and difficult to bear, do a thing with great difficulty. taaqat - the utmost that a person can do.
taqah n.f. 2249, 2286
tawwaqa vb. (2) impf. pass. 3180
ataqa vb. (4) impf. act. 2184
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 5, pages 179, 180
Thank you Wakas. Corpus must have a typo then because it does list the root as ww qf .
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There is no typo.
You are referring to the transliteration, but there is no universal agreement on transliteration of Arabic letters.
There is universal agreement on the Arabic letters however, and corpus uses the same Arabic letter as PRL in this case.
http//t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbnANd9GcRrUeTecOND6UYxpGEBIL-NDt1f0P3TVHIgqo_x0Uu75AZ-4K8j73snq4Qezw
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Interesting. I see the Arabic letter you refer too below but Corpus says ?
The triliteral root ww qf ( ق occurs four times in the Quran, in three derived forms
once as the form II verb yuawwaqu (ُ (2184 the verse in question)
once as the form IV verb yuqu (ُ
twice as the noun qat (ةhttp//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Twq#(218416)
And project Root List has both ta or tay, that was my confusion. I was looking under ta for it. Thanks for clarifying but it still seems like a typo to me. Maybe I am still confused? confused
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Salaam
As I understand in north poles even though its six months of day or night there are still stages of darkness and lightness depending on the stages of sun, people in those places often see twiglight with day or night so there are two edges of day and night.http//answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071129031929AAbKFPx
there are still stages of darkness and light
when, farida? surely not every morning and evening like us here, as the days are continuose and then the nights for months on end.
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http//answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071129031929AAbKFPx
when, farida? surely not every morning and evening like us here, as the days are continuose and then the nights for months on end.
In summertime, the sun is always above the horizon at the North Pole, circling the Pole once every day. It is highest in the sky at the Summer Solstice, after which it moves closer to the horizon, until it sinks below the horizon, at the Fall Equinox
http//www.arctic.noaa.gov/gallery_np_seasons.html
I will be honest with you, I have not done much research on this just a bit of googling and as earth is not stationary it revolves around sun so there must be some changes in sun shadows indicating its positons.
Salaam -
In summertime, the sun is always above the horizon at the North Pole, circling the Pole once every day. It is highest in the sky at the Summer Solstice, after which it moves closer to the horizon, until it sinks below the horizon, at the Fall Equinox
http//www.arctic.noaa.gov/gallery_np_seasons.html
I will be honest with you, I have not done much research on this just a bit of googling and as earth is not stationary it revolves around sun so there must be some changes in sun shadows indicating its positons.
SalaamI like doing research,
here are some links, why it all happens.
http//www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/6h.html
http//moonsighting.com/6monthdays.html
hmm
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I like doing research,
here are some links, why it all happens.
http//www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/6h.html
http//moonsighting.com/6monthdays.html
hmm
Salaam
Thank you for the links, however salah according to 11114 ? (literal translation) ?And establish Prayer at the edge of the day and in proximity to the night (zulfun layl) could also mean, as Wakas mentioned And with regards to timings of salat etc the only plural address used, that I know of, is 2458, all other verses, which mention sun/timings are singular; the implication being, that your "morning" and "evening" is the timing.
peace -
Isn't morning and evening according to how many months the day is?As sunlight or darkness is continuous, there a morning and evening is months apart aswell.
Still we count months according to lunar cycle even when there is no clear division of day and night;
936 936 The count of the months with Allah is twelve months in the book of Allah the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight the polytheists collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous.
Salaam -
Still we count months according to lunar cycle even when there is no clear division of day and night;
936 936 The count of the months with Allah is twelve months in the book of Allah the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight the polytheists collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous.
SalaamSalaam Frida,
Sorry i didn't understand, what that was supposed to mean. I was just showing that as salaat and fasts are connected to dawn and sunset, they are in trouble if the days are months or weeks long, which is the case in certain countries.
peace
http//www.1worldglobes.com/global-warming.htm
http//wiki.answers.com/Q/What_countries_have_continuous_day_and_night
http//wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_are_the_days_and_nights_at_the_south_pole
http//www.lpi.usra.edu/education/skytellers/day_night/about.shtml
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Salaam Frida,
Sorry i didn't understand, what that was supposed to mean. I was just showing that as salaat and fasts are connected to dawn and sunset, they are in trouble if the days are months or weeks long, which is the case in certain countries.
peace
Salaam
For fasting it's clearly defined to start fast from dawn to dusk where as for Salah11114 ? And establish Prayer at the edge of the day and in proximity to the night (zulfun layl)... can you see the flexibility here?
Peace -
Well if the day is many months long, then of course the traditional salah will be that few also , surely, unless the words for dawn and dusk mean something other in which case the salah isn't connected to dawn and dusk, thus will be irrespective of time, so it's anytime according to needs
peace.
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No matter whether some people live on the poles or not, they still live on the earth, the earth revolves around itself every day. I do not think people at the poles are ignorant of that fact or count days following whether the sun sets wholly or not. Do you have any proof that if there is no sunset they don't count a day? Days still exist. Do they count no day at all when it is night for severall calendar days following or it is daytime? Do people at the poles stop sleeiping at night because there is no total darkness or stop waking up because it is dark?
The Qur'an does not disregard common sense, quite the opposite is says rather often to use our reasoning to go through life. Things that are said having in mind humanity will not fit every single person necessarily all the time. We have minds to get the gist of whatever we are told and adapt it. And to do so is perfectly coranic and of the fact that we are reasoning creatures and capable of jusdging matters on common sense is in the knowledge ou our Creator, and it is to us that He addresses itslef, no to some dumb robot which follows ritual commands.
If somebody on the poles wants to benefit from the blessings of ramadan or salat sure it is doable without much mindwringing. If they do not want to, no need either to bring up knowledge or lack of it of the Creator.
I am sure, it is a theoretical problem and not a real one. Just follow their days, they days of the people who live on the poles.
Salaam
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Well if the day is many months long, then of course the traditional salah will be that few also ,
peace.Salaam
Only if they had only a few meals the day which, according to you is six month long.sun
You started this thread giving the impression that the "writer" was unaware of the geographic poles situation, but as the Qur'an has dealt with that situation you have turned this thread into a debate about salah, just to see if the "Author" was ignorant of what is now revealed to you via google.
As I understand when reading all the ayah on Salah we find much flexibility, so much so that the Hadithist counting it believed there were originally 50 Salah.
Peace -
No matter whether some people live on the poles or not, they still live on the earth, the earth revolves around itself every day. I do not think people at the poles are ignorant of that fact or count days following whether the sun sets wholly or not. Do you have any proof that if there is no sunset they don't count a day? Days still exist. Do they count no day at all when it is night for severall calendar days following or it is daytime? Do people at the poles stop sleeiping at night because there is no total darkness or stop waking up because it is dark?
The Qur'an does not disregard common sense, quite the opposite is says rather often to use our reasoning to go through life. Things that are said having in mind humanity will not fit every single person necessarily all the time. We have minds to get the gist of whatever we are told and adapt it. And to do so is perfectly coranic and of the fact that we are reasoning creatures and capable of jusdging matters on common sense is in the knowledge ou our Creator, and it is to us that He addresses itslef, no to some dumb robot which follows ritual commands.
If somebody on the poles wants to benefit from the blessings of ramadan or salat sure it is doable without much mindwringing. If they do not want to, no need either to bring up knowledge or lack of it of the Creator.
I am sure, it is a theoretical problem and not a real one. Just follow their days, they days of the people who live on the poles.
Salaam
If you don't care for the commands of the quran fast from dawn to senset and other similer things and follow your own understanding, what is wrong with that. But you are not then following the command of the quran , if you are please show me how, if you like.
Thanks.
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Salaam
Only if they had only a few meals the day which, according to you is six month long.sunThe day as i showed , not according to me but according to science is weeks or even months long in some countries;
http//moonsighting.com/6monthdays.html
I didn't make this table and neither all the other websites to which you have the links to, come on.
You started this thread giving the impression that the "writer" was unaware of the geographic poles situation, but as the Qur'an has dealt with that situation you have turned this thread into a debate about salah, just to see if the "Author" was ignorant of what is now revealed to you via google.
As I understand when reading all the ayah on Salah we find much flexibility, so much so that the Hadithist counting it believed there were originally 50 Salah.
PeaceI didn't start the thread to show the writer was unaware of this , but to show there could be an element of mistranslation as things applying in most countries cannot be applied in some others.
I knew though as you agreed for ramadhan previosly that salah case will be hard to stomach as it all becomes too much for anybody.
peace
