How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Salaam Nimnimak_11
you said in your reply
In 423-24 we are told that we cannot marry the muhsinat women untill they become of MMA "Forbidden to you (for marriage) are...And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths. So MMA isn't a plan B, its necessary before you can marry the muhsinat women. They must first become MMA to you.
I do not understand where you have gotten this from. When i read the verses 423-25, i thought it said that we cannot marry, married women unless they are MMA. And then verse 425 goes on to say, if we cant marry we should then marry MMA. I didn't read anywhere that independant women have to become MMA in order for us to be able to marry them.
Please quote me the verse which says this, i may have missed it ^_^
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Salam Mino-taur
Here are the verses
423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who were in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
424 And the independent (muhsinat) from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of God over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent (muhsinat) female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young (fatayat) women (. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become independent, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half of what is the punishment for those independent. This is for those who are concerned about deviating from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.So in 423 it begins by listing those who are forbidden to us for marriage. Then in 424, it lists the muhsinat women but allows muhsinat women for marriage provided that they are of those whom your oaths possess. Does this clarify?
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Salam Mino-taur
Here are the verses
423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who were in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
424 And the independent (muhsinat) from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of God over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent (muhsinat) female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young (fatayat) women (. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become independent, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half of what is the punishment for those independent. This is for those who are concerned about deviating from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.So in 423 it begins by listing those who are forbidden to us for marriage. Then in 424, it lists the muhsinat women but allows muhsinat women for marriage provided that they are of those whom your oaths possess. Does this clarify?
What is meant by independent?
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I think its those who don't live with their parents or carers since it's contrasted with fatayat which appears to be young women implying dependence. But its not straightforward. What difference is there in the fatayat that would alter the wealth of someone in such a way as to make it ok to marry a fatayat but not a muhsinat?
since 425 says And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become independent, any of them who come with lewdness shall have hal
What is it about the fatayat that makes us need to ask parents for their permission to marry them? What is that makes a fatayat ok for those who can't afford the muhsinat? How does wealth make a difference? How does a fatayat become a muhsinat and why is that their punishment for lewdness is half of that of a muhsinat?
Any ideas Bigmo?
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I think its those who don't live with their parents or carers since it's contrasted with fatayat which appears to be young women implying dependence. But its not straightforward. What difference is there in the fatayat that would alter the wealth of someone in such a way as to make it ok to marry a fatayat but not a muhsinat?
since 425 says And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become independent, any of them who come with lewdness shall have hal
What is it about the fatayat that makes us need to ask parents for their permission to marry them? What is that makes a fatayat ok for those who can't afford the muhsinat? How does wealth make a difference? How does a fatayat become a muhsinat and why is that their punishment for lewdness is half of that of a muhsinat?
Any ideas Bigmo?
The asking for permisiion is concerning the MMA which is understandable since MMA marriages usual are done by oath only. WE know in many countries parents of the girls and boys do not even know about the arrangement. There is also no dowry there. So the Koran wants to elevate that arrangement with a proper marriage. You can have sex with MMA since its done by oath between two parties but it does not fulfil the marriage arrangement commonly understood. I think MMA is very similar to grilfriend boyfriend arrangements that often lead to marriages.
Muhsanat to me I think means women who are not married.The Koran seems to see MMA as legitimate sexual relation but not a marriage. Marriage requires financial arrangement.
The verses 4.23 - 25 are very difficult to understand. Its like a puzzle.
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I don't really think that it is with regards to the MMA that we must ask permission. I think it is in the case of the fatayat that we must ask permission. We are asking for the permission of the fatayat who are of MMA with regards to marrying them not with regards to them becoming MMA.
It is complicated but there must be a solution....
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The asking for permisiion is concerning the MMA which is understandable since MMA marriages usual are done by oath only. WE know in many countries parents of the girls and boys do not even know about the arrangement. There is also no dowry there. So the Koran wants to elevate that arrangement with a proper marriage. You can have sex with MMA since its done by oath between two parties but it does not fulfil the marriage arrangement commonly understood. I think MMA is very similar to grilfriend boyfriend arrangements that often lead to marriages.
Muhsanat to me I think means women who are not married.The Koran seems to see MMA as legitimate sexual relation but not a marriage. Marriage requires financial arrangement.
The verses 4.23 - 25 are very difficult to understand. Its like a puzzle.
The verse starts by saying for those who can not marry the fatiyat. So the rest of the verse must be talking about the alternative, which is MMA.
As far as whether there shall be a solution, this I believe is not Koranic. Because the Koran makes clear what it wants and is vague when it wants. Insisting that there must be a solution is giving the Sunnis and Shias a stick to hit us with. They will say only hadiths can make us understand these verses and Koran alone can't. The Koran tells us that there are verses that only God can understand. Maybe these verses are a test to see what people after Muhammad will do. We are also warned in the Koran not to speculate on these vague verses but to accept them as the Koran and leave their interpretation for God.
If we take the previous scriptures, then we have concubines along side wives. For me its a best way to understand these verses althought not perfect. I could be wrong of course.
Among the Israelites, men commonly acknowledged their concubines, and such women enjoyed the same rights in the house as legitimate wives. The principal difference in the Bible between a wife and a concubine is that wives had dowries, while concubines did not.
The concubine may have commanded the same respect and inviolability as the wife. The Hebrew word used in the Levitical rules on sexual relations, which is commonly translated as "wife", is distinct from the Hebrew word that means "concubine". (However, on at least one other occasion it is used to refer a woman who is not a wife - specifically, the handmaid of Jacob's wife.) In the Levitical code, sexual intercourse between a man and a wife of a different man was forbidden and punishable by death for both persons involved. The Bible notes several incidents of intercourse between a man and another man's concubine, and none of them result in capital punishment for either party, although the man to whom the concubine belonged was dishonored by such a relationship. For instance, David is portrayed as having been dishonoured when his concubines had a sexual relationship with his son Absalom. However, this instance is as likely dishonoring to David because it involves a form of incest, as David's concubines would have been somewhat like step-mothers to David's children.
Since it was regarded as the highest blessing to have many children, legitimate wives often gave their maids to their husbands to atone, at least in part, if they were barren, as in the cases of Sarah and Hagar, Rachel and Bilhah. The children of the concubine had equal rights with those of the legitimate wife; for example, King Abimelech was the son of Gideon and his concubine. Later biblical figures such as Gideon, David, and Solomon had concubines in addition to many childbearing wives. For example, the Books of Kings says that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
In Judaism
In Judaism, concubines are referred to by the Hebrew term pilegesh. The term is a non-Hebrew, non-Semitic loanword deriving from the Greek word pallakis, Greek , meaning a mistress staying in house. Or the Aramaic phrase palga isha, meaning half-wife.
According to the Babylonian Talmud, the difference between a concubine and a full wife was that the latter received a marriage contract (Hebrewketubah) and her marriage (nissu'in) was preceded by a formal betrothal (erusin), neither being the case for a concubine. But, one opinion in the Jerusalem Talmud argues that the concubine should also receive a marriage contract, but without including a clause specifying a divorce settlement.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage
So in this sense, asking for permisiion from the families and giving them dowries makes since this is what seperates a wife from a concubine. Many prophets we know had concubines but in the end both are legitimate partner with equal rights. One has more financial protection than the other.
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Also note that in the Bible concubines were not punished the way a wife was if she did commit sexual misconduct, precisely what the Koran said when it said that if any MMA commits a sexual misconduct she should get half of whatever punishment for the non MMA. So basically MMA is a relationship between a man and woman that is based on oath, but does not have the same criteria that is usually accompanied in a proper marriage and that makes them socially vulnerable. This may explain why the Koran talked about MMA as somewhat of an inferior arrangement.
But nowhere in the Bible did it ever connected concubines with slavery. Slavery deprives one partner the right of choice and is not a mutual agreement but rape one party by another. Completely unacceptable.
If you look at the wikipedia article about concubinage, the only mentioning of concubines with slavery is concerning Islam. A damn shame. And even worse its often associated with prisoners of war. So a bad situation became even worse. That is what i call the lowest of the low. No wonder Muslim clerics try to hide all this from the Muslim masses.
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Salam nimnimak
My understanding of the matter is that you can only have sex with spouses and MMA, as the Quran mentions that we should guard our genitalia from anyone except spouses (which can be boy/girlfriends, husbands/wives, concubines, lovers etc.) and MMA.
What I don't understand is how do you think a one night stand is allowed? Do you consider the partner in a one night stand as a spouse?
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Also note that in the Bible concubines were not punished the way a wife was if she did commit sexual misconduct, precisely what the Koran said when it said that if any MMA commits a sexual misconduct she should get half of whatever punishment for the non MMA. So basically MMA is a relationship between a man and woman that is based on oath, but does not have the same criteria that is usually accompanied in a proper marriage and that makes them socially vulnerable. This may explain why the Koran talked about MMA as somewhat of an inferior arrangement.
But nowhere in the Bible did it ever connected concubines with slavery. Slavery deprives one partner the right of choice and is not a mutual agreement but rape one party by another. Completely unacceptable.
If you look at the wikipedia article about concubinage, the only mentioning of concubines with slavery is concerning Islam. A damn shame. And even worse its often associated with prisoners of war. So a bad situation became even worse. That is what i call the lowest of the low. No wonder Muslim clerics try to hide all this from the Muslim masses.
Going by that the modern equivalent is not girlfriend and boyfriend but fiance and fiancee. With the first case there is no real oath but the latter indicates a promise to be bound. It's funny how the dowry has gone from something useful to a useless shiny rock encased in metal.
However why would it say that if you cannot marry an independent woman then marry an MMA?
Also how people can deduce that God the pure and most good permits rape is beyond me. Dress it up as much as they want with the "prisoners of war" crap, nobody wants that happening to their own daughters/wives/mothers.
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Going by that the modern equivalent is not girlfriend and boyfriend but fiance and fiancee. With the first case there is no real oath but the latter indicates a promise to be bound. It's funny how the dowry has gone from something useful to a useless shiny rock encased in metal.
However why would it say that if you cannot marry an independent woman then marry an MMA?
Also how people can deduce that God the pure and most good permits rape is beyond me. Dress it up as much as they want with the "prisoners of war" crap, nobody wants that happening to their own daughters/wives/mothers.
I don't know if you can say that boyfriend and grilfriend is not an oath. Yes it may not be formal but in all realities there is an oath. Or else none of the partners will get upset if the other cheats.
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I don't know if you can say that boyfriend and grilfriend is not an oath. Yes it may not be formal but in all realities there is an oath. Or else none of the partners will get upset if the other cheats.
Shalom Aleikhem,
I guess that depends on your understanding of "oath". If you think about it, there is a sense of oath/commitment between a prostitute and his/her client. Ofcourse both would feel betrayed if the other one betrays.
By the way, I have not read your views on the topic of the thread. I am just commenting on this specific post I quoted. )
Peace
------------ Student of Allah -
To be more precise, it is not a formal oath. Boyfriend-girlfriend is barely a step or two above total casual sex. The bond is still disposable, it's even called 'getting dumped'. It's treated differently by different people whereby to some it's like marriage, to others it's a sex contract to be made and broken at will thus making it a really ambiguous term. Marriage is the same everywhere monogamous with both sides heavily invested emotionally and financially.
The gist of 423-25 is that the relationship must be explicitly declared and known this person is with that person, nobody else is to go between them.
Anyway MMA cannot be 'slave girls'/'prisoners of war' because in 419 believers are forbidden from taking girls against their will in the first place. Now I'm confused, why is there so much frenzied discussion on here and elsewhere about 'slave girls'/'prisoners of war' when 419 obviously forbids this in the first place? I assume that the prisoners of war obviously would not consent to any supposed marriage. Am I missing something?
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Shalom Aleikhem,
I guess that depends on your understanding of "oath". If you think about it, there is a sense of oath/commitment between a prostitute and his/her client. Ofcourse both would feel betrayed if the other one betrays.
Excuse me?! Say what?? I think everyone here can agree that the above is absolute nonsense. There is no love/commitment in a "relationship" between a prostitute and someone who uses/pays for this service. There is no oath/commitment involved - it is merely a service.
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To be more precise, it is not a formal oath. Boyfriend-girlfriend is barely a step or two above total casual sex. The bond is still disposable, it's even called 'getting dumped'. It's treated differently by different people whereby to some it's like marriage, to others it's a sex contract to be made and broken at will thus making it a really ambiguous term. Marriage is the same everywhere monogamous with both sides heavily invested emotionally and financially.
There are people who live together and spend the rest of their lives together in a sexual/caring relationship without getting married..
Furthermore, what you said above is clearly not the case. Just look at Middle Eastern and Arabic countries where polygamy is a common practice and other cultures who have completely different practices from the West.You can also easily get a divorce - there is the same pain as in a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship and it is very easy to get a divorce, at least in the Western World.
The gist of 423-25 is that the relationship must be explicitly declared and known this person is with that person, nobody else is to go between them.
People know when others are together in a relationship, as long as one is not completely ignorant, blind and/or stupid. Not only marriage has that characteristic.
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Excuse me?! Say what?? I think everyone here can agree that the above is absolute nonsense. There is no love/commitment in a "relationship" between a prostitute and someone who uses/pays for this service. There is no oath/commitment involved - it is merely a service.
Shalom aleikhem,
Sorry Sir but I beg to differ. It all depends on the definition of commitment. What do you mean when you say commitment.
I think you are defining commitment as an emotional debt. But then again, it is not impossible to hurt a prostitute's feelings by not paying him/her after their service. And obviously I also do not agree that "commitment" is absent from services based on money.
( Just for the record of whoever cares, I am not advocating for or against prostitution in this and my earlier post. It is just a part of my thought based entirely around BIGMO's remarks on boyfriend-girlfriend relationship that I quoted in my previous post)
Peace
------------ Student of Allah -
Sorry Sir but I beg to differ. It all depends on the definition of commitment. What do you mean when you say commitment.
I think you are defining commitment as an emotional debt. But then again, it is not impossible to hurt a prostitute's feelings by not paying him/her after their service. And obviously I also do not agree that "commitment" is absent from services based on money.
He pays, they have sex. She goes on to the next client. He goes on to then next prostitute. That's it. What oath/commitment do you see in that? The "hurting feelings" argument is weak. Usually payment is upfront, and, if not, then I would assume that more than mere "feelings are hurt".
There has to be an oath/commitment in the relationship that makes it long-term and that involves, care/love and loyalty towards one another, as explained quite a few times in this thread by various people.
Also, I am assuming you are taking back your earlier points about marriage?
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Shalom Aleikhem,
I guess that depends on your understanding of "oath". If you think about it, there is a sense of oath/commitment between a prostitute and his/her client. Ofcourse both would feel betrayed if the other one betrays.
By the way, I have not read your views on the topic of the thread. I am just commenting on this specific post I quoted. )
Peace
------------ Student of AllahSo its a financial arrangement and not an emotional or sexual one. The verses about MMA was dealing with sexual arrangement and it specifically said that the arrangement should not be based on lust alone.
MMA is not a boyfriend grifriend arrangement anyways, its a urfi marriage. A concubinage arrangement. But I define Zina as being betrayal. So the boyfriend and grilfriend arrangement is applicable for Zina. That is cheating here is Zina.
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He pays, they have sex. She goes on to the next client. He goes on to then next prostitute. That's it. What oath/commitment do you see in that? The "hurting feelings" argument is weak. Usually payment is upfront, and, if not, then I would assume that more than mere "feelings are hurt".
There has to be an oath/commitment in the relationship that makes it long-term and that involves, care/love and loyalty towards one another, as explained quite a few times in this thread by various people.
Also, I am assuming you are taking back your earlier points about marriage?
Shalom Aleikhem,
Ohh.. so we are talking about long term commitment. Well, one could argue about being a sugar daddy What is care/love for you may not be the same for me. Regardless, as I stated in my previous posts, I am only playing around with words and their meanings and our perception. Nothing serious.
What point did I make earlier about marriage ? Sorry, cant remember. Would you mind quoting what you are referring to ?
So its a financial arrangement and not an emotional or sexual one. The verses about MMA was dealing with sexual arrangement and it specifically said that the arrangement should not be based on lust alone.
MMA is not a boyfriend grifriend arrangement anyways, its a urfi marriage. A concubinage arrangement. But I define Zina as being betrayal. So the boyfriend and grilfriend arrangement is applicable for Zina. That is cheating here is Zina.
I understood your point
Peace
------------- Student of Allah -
Peace Bigmo
I'm sorry for the late replys. It's been the last few days of my degree and i've been busy with saying goodbyes and packing stuff to return home. I'm home now and should have more time.
The verse starts by saying for those who can not marry the fatiyat. So the rest of the verse must be talking about the alternative, which is MMA.
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become independent, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half of what is the punishment for those independent. This is for those who are concerned about deviating from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.
I'm not good with Arabic but going by the free-minds translation and also a look on corpus suggests that those who can't marry the muhsinat, should marry the fataya that are of MMA. Which implies that both the muhsinat and the fatayat must be of MMA before being permissible for marriage.
If we take the previous scriptures, then we have concubines along side wives. For me its a best way to understand these verses althought not perfect. I could be wrong of course.
Could this work with the idea that before marrying the muhsinat and the fatayat, they must first become a concubine?