hajj / feast / debate
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Hi guys !
I've been reading alot about Hajj... and I feel like I've got the fattest headache on the planet. Ever since I was young I was never in an agreement that I should travel to Mecca to see some black stone that isn't even mentioned by the Quran and circle it 7 times which isn't also mentioned by the Quran (and from what I've heard originates from pagan practices.. if anyone has any archierlogical evidence of this ). I believe hajj is definitely something else... it seems to be referring to some form of a feast but where...? In a place which does not associate idols with God correct? Does this not mean then that it can be done in any believers house? Inviting a whole load of people to have a feast and witness the benefits of God...? Do we FINALLY have a set definition of what hajj actually is?? My brain has melted by constant observations of threads ... as I said the tradition thinking never sat right with me.... also just contradicted so many things .
Peace guys peace
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Peace Sushi,
I agree with you. It could be a feast at someone's house. However, for those people who have to fast, it suggests 3 days fasting on the journey to Hajj....This suggests that Hajj is a long journey away?
Dawn. -
peace /salaam,
Theoretically it could be conducted at someone's house, but for them to fulfil all of the Quranic criteria, I consider that unlikely.
E.g. invite all humankind, people can send gifts/food, slaughter animals, provide security/food/shelter/drink, enact certain locational restrictions during the period, discuss/sign treaties/trade agreements, a mix of people can interact, believers can remember/study Quran, etc etc.
Usually it would be overseen under an authority, or people/community with a position of power over an area can host it etc.
Even if one doesn't know what 'al hajj' is, as in what to call it, we know what goes on in it. We can go by that etc. I dont consider the topic difficult, perhaps determining the timing and sequence of events, but not most of it.
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Peace Wakas, Peace all.
I agree with your example.
A phase of GOD s plan is starting to be fulfilled as we speak /debate/ get on with our modern Scientific life.
Chapter 110 is starting its germination.
Think all of you servants of GOD alone. How many years before the prophet was allowed back to " Mecca"? Was he doing " Hajj" at the beginning? Where were all the believers meeting for a " ritual"?
GOD gathers HIS people according to HIS plan!
The Lord s promise is true.
Peace. -
peace /salaam,
Theoretically it could be conducted at someone's house, but for them to fulfil all of the Quranic criteria, I consider that unlikely.
E.g. invite all humankind, people can send gifts/food, slaughter animals, provide security/food/shelter/drink, enact certain locational restrictions during the period, discuss/sign treaties/trade agreements, a mix of people can interact, believers can remember/study Quran, etc etc.
Usually it would be overseen under an authority, or people/community with a position of power over an area can host it etc.
Even if one doesn't know what 'al hajj' is, as in what to call it, we know what goes on in it. We can go by that etc. I dont consider the topic difficult, perhaps determining the timing and sequence of events, but not most of it.
Selam Wakas thanks for the response. What is your view of where hajj should be taken place? Can it be anywhere where there is a big gathering of people providing the mentioned above or does it have to be in Mecca... which i'm a bit skeptical about... but then that is not even for mankind S... when it should be S... so how are we meant to do hajj when it's only for the supposed "muslims"... we all know Allah didn't put up those road signs in Saudi ?_? ...
Peace Wakas peace
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My view is that it can be held wherever fulfils the Quran's criteria.
Selam Wakas ),
I'm also curious about your conclusion of the Ka'ba and the two "mountains" (which I believe were later named as well as al-masjid-al-haram). Do you still believe that the 2 stones mentioned are actually for animal sacrificing?
Peace ) peace
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w/salaam,
My view on "al kaaba" is that it likely refers to an area/region. Either a base/valley, or an area raised (in relation to surrounding terrain). I mainly say this because it is clear in Quran that certain restrictions are in place in the inviolable months, in an area, thus it is a logical necessity to have such an area demarcated, hence the "al kaaba" reference.
"al masjid al haram" is "the inviolable time of SJD/submission/honour" and refers to the time-period of the inviolable months.
I never said safwa and marwa were two stones. It seems it refers to the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering/cooking. I am not 100% on this, but whatever they are, they are likely related to food/provision, due to the context and the other sha'air in Quran.
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w/salaam,
My view on "al kaaba" is that it likely refers to an area/region. Either a base/valley, or an area raised (in relation to surrounding terrain). I mainly say this because it is clear in Quran that certain restrictions are in place in the inviolable months, in an area, thus it is a logical necessity to have such an area demarcated, hence the "al kaaba" reference.
"al masjid al haram" is "the inviolable time of SJD/submission/honour" and refers to the time-period of the inviolable months.
I never said safwa and marwa were two stones. It seems it refers to the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering/cooking. I am not 100% on this, but whatever they are, they are likely related to food/provision, due to the context and the other sha'air in Quran.
Selam ),
Hmph.. interesting points.
So the Ka'ba in your opinion is not the Ka'ba as we see today? Or it can be one of those options. Reading the Quran I do also think it refers to some area like a valley or something but then there isn't any exact location given.
Also in regards to "al-masjid-al-haram", how could this be a time period? We are told to face it wherever we are... there is no relation to time mentioned in the verses (2.149 i think it is..). I always take it to mean "the inviolable state/institution of obedience"... as I saw one post was well explained for this reasoning. Either way, I don't feel quite happy with the FM translation of this...
Apologies Wakas, I was quickly skimming through your posts and trying to understand where you were going with "safwa" and "marwa". I am also not in agreement that they are the mountains I see today. I am in agreement that they are some form related to the festival where preparation is being done for something. I'm also trying to gather archaelogical evidence which shows us that the Masjid al Haram we see today is NOT the one mentioned in the Quran. I've only got some insight by certain "websites" which show me when the Quran was first written, when Muhammed died and also when the Masjid was build and it seems to be a good certain number of years after Muhammed died... Also same thing with the 2 "mountains".. safwa and marwa, these were apparently given/assigned names to after the Quran was written.. -sighs- it's all a bit confusing.. and it makes me think that the Arabs were attempting to sway people from what the Quran/Muhammed were trying to put across at a very early stage ...
Peace ) peace
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Salaam,
I'm also curious about your conclusion of the Ka'ba and the two "mountains" (which I believe were later named as well as al-masjid-al-haram). Do you still believe that the 2 stones mentioned are actually for animal sacrificing?
I think 594-95 may help to understand the location. I visited Makkah but never seen any cattle where my hands can reach except for half naked people.
I don't know if these aayaats are already been discussed in this thread. If so, please excuse me.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam,
I think 594-95 may help to understand the location. I visited Makkah but never seen any cattle where my hands can reach except for half naked people.
I don't know if these aayaats are already been discussed in this thread. If so, please excuse me.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhanSelam mmkhan ,
So do you believe anywhere that you can get livestock .... |... sorry it's 3am here (...
Peace peace
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salaam sushi,
2142-151 requires time and research to understand. I am currently working on it ;D
In brief, I would say however that "wajh" does not necessarily mean the physical face, and the understanding of "the inviolable state/institution of obedience" has issues, some of which are critical, e.g. it would imply their previous "qiblah/focus/direction" was not this, the change in qiblah implies an easing of circumstances/striving, and when it says this change will result in no debate against you, I personally do not see how that would be the case in that understanding.I am looking at all these angles. Hopefully there will be more discussion on this issue in future.
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Selam mmkhan ),
So do you believe anywhere that you can get livestock .... |... sorry it's 3am here (...
Peace peace
Salaam Shushi,
nope Sorry no idea about the highlighted part above.
About Kaaba I believe it has to be something coming out of ground naturally not man-made structure over the ground. It took from 56 where Allah used the word "kaabaiyni" that means "two kaabaas" if you notice, these kaabaiyni referred to two edge of "fibula and tibia" bones of our legs called malleolus. Images below shows you what kaabaiyni is referring to, inshaAllah.
http//www.pediatric-orthopedics.com/Topics/Bones/Tib_Fib/LowerViewAxis.jpg
http//www.proprofs.com/flashcards/upload/a7346852.jpgSo, kaaba has to be a end part of long structure or else self grown out area from the ground level. This is my personal understanding about Kaaba, if anyone find it wrong please do correct me.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam Shushi,
nope Sorry no idea about the highlighted part above.
About Kaaba I believe it has to be something coming out of ground naturally not man-made structure over the ground. It took from 56 where Allah used the word "kaabaiyni" that means "two kaabaas" if you notice, these kaabaiyni referred to two edge of "fibula and tibia" bones of our legs called malleolus. Images below shows you what kaabaiyni is referring to, inshaAllah.
http//www.pediatric-orthopedics.com/Topics/Bones/Tib_Fib/LowerViewAxis.jpg
http//www.proprofs.com/flashcards/upload/a7346852.jpgSo, kaaba has to be a end part of long structure or else self grown out area from the ground level. This is my personal understanding about Kaaba, if anyone find it wrong please do correct me.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhanSelam mmKhan,
I always thought of kaaba as a sanctuary but this explanation has slightly confused me. Could you think of any place that fits your description of maybe a structure self grown out area from ground level as you say ).
Peace peace
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Selam mmKhan,
I always thought of kaaba as a sanctuary but this explanation has slightly confused me. Could you think of any place that fits your description of maybe a structure self grown out area from ground level as you say .
Peace peace
Salaam Sushi,
Yesterday one of my friend researching about Kaaba said that every joint of bones in our body called "Ka'aab'' from which Kaaba is derived. I have no idea about this, still I am trying to learn n study further.
It is not yet clear to me that Kaaba is physical or non physical place. Brother Bender may put some light on this further inshaAllah. It is not yet clear to me because what could be the purpose of having a physical place? I did not understand logic behind it. Anyway, this is not my conclusion, but still I am in doubt.
BTW, physical self grown area could be mountains or hills they came out of ground. If it is physical then we can try to find out by Allah's permission, inshaAllah.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Salaams
I will stick to hajj/pilgrimage as supposedly being to Mecca, but that the hadith additions are false until "everyone" can prove 100% that its different. Only problem is we cant make hajj there because its run by non Quran Only people and they dont accept Us as being Muslims and there is pagan practices being performed during the hajj there,so it would have to be purged from all its heathenism before we could make pilgrimage.At one time I was thinking it was to baca valley in Israel, but that was just a small valley that people traveled through to get to Mt.Zion aka the Temple Mount and not a pilgrimage site itself.
Then I was thinking it was some where in the desert of Paran, as this is mentioned in Genesis 20 21God was with the boy(Ishmael) as he grew up. He lived in the desert and learned to shoot with a bow. 21 While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got him a wife from Egypt.
http//mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/3366474.jpg
May Allah forgive me for my wrongs and lead us all to Guidance and Understanding, inshaAllah.
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Nahal Nekarot Israel Paran
http//www.panoramio.com/photo/72916627
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Brother Wakas, you are one of the most knowledgeable researchers of the great reading that I know. You have produced one of the most helpful research tools in PRLonline. In fact, you helped me a great deal in achieving my present understanding. Here is what you said on the translation of ?haj? on PRL
= Haa-Jiim-Jiim = to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, pilgrimage.
Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute.
Refrain/abstain.Hmm? no ?debate? here. But maybe we missed it because Lane Lexicon has 3 pages on ?haj? and thus in the tens of meanings it would have been easy to miss it. So let?s look at Lane?s
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 149, 150, 151
HAJJ = OVERCOME ANOTHER BY
This is the best translation i think from PRL.
What does it mean by OVERCOME ANOTHER BY ?
HAJJ was instructed to be organized by Prophet Ibrahim to OVERCOME the HUNTING RESTRICTION ENFORCEMENT PERIOD. Since the people couldnt longer have their diet supply from the wildlife during Shahral Haram, AN ALTERNATIVE SUPPLY must be in place, which is THE LIVESTOCK (bahimah al-anam). This provide a way out because of the restriction and this is what HAJJ is all about.
HAJJ is not a mindless ritual (spinning cube with 2 piece towel). It is about STOCKPILING Bayt Al-Haram with LIVESTOCK. During this 3 months, nearby neighbouring people of all believe (Especially Non Muslim) came here to take their supply and understand God universal Law of Hunting Restriction.
This event provide opportunity to Prophet Ibrahim to explain to Hajj guest about the importance of observing this Universal Law, that is to preserve wildlife for balance ECOSYSTEM for the long term benefit of mankind.
Wildlife is the original creation of God, the original seed which later from it, people undertake domestication process where some of the wildlife species becoming our main food supply.
WE must love and protect this wildlife as one of our major obligation to Allah and services to the people.
This is the forgotten law, that has caused the wildlife extinction all over the world.
Peace.
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HAJJ = OVERCOME ANOTHER BY
This is the best translation i think from PRL.
What does it mean by OVERCOME ANOTHER BY ?
HAJJ was instructed to be organized by Prophet Ibrahim to OVERCOME the HUNTING RESTRICTION ENFORCEMENT PERIOD. Since the people couldnt longer have their diet supply from the wildlife during Shahral Haram, AN ALTERNATIVE SUPPLY must be in place, which is THE LIVESTOCK (bahimah al-anam). This provide a way out because of the restriction and this is what HAJJ is all about.
HAJJ is not a mindless ritual (spinning cube with 2 piece towel). It is about STOCKPILING Bayt Al-Haram with LIVESTOCK. During this 3 months, nearby neighbouring people of all believe (Especially Non Muslim) came here to take their supply and understand God universal Law of Hunting Restriction.
This event provide opportunity to Prophet Ibrahim to explain to Hajj guest about the importance of observing this Universal Law, that is to preserve wildlife for balance ECOSYSTEM for the long term benefit of mankind.
Wildlife is the original creation of God, the original seed which later from it, people undertake domestication process where some of the wildlife species becoming our main food supply.
WE must love and protect this wildlife as one of our major obligation to Allah and services to the people.
This is the forgotten law, that has caused the wildlife extinction all over the world.I agree. It is closely related to the hunting restriction. It is definitely an amazing sign that all those three things come together at that time
- The best time for hunting restriction.
- The harvest.
- The time when lifestock is most plentiful.
Peace,
Ayman
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to ayman
what do you think about this ? (i reproduce a post)
it is near of what you think
salam
I will try to traduce part of the french article found here (http//nawaat.org/portail/2012/07/24/ibadat-el-chouyoukhs-5-la-grande-utopie-de-la-reforme-et-le-bonus-dukhanus/)
Let begin with this verse
2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.
We can note that drinking and eating until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn doesn?t mean clearly that we can?t no more eat at all after. This kind of deduction would make the interdiction of approaching women redundant.
Now, the true definition of fasting is given here
1926 "So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then say 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"
Comparison between of two descriptions of the same miracle of God
1910 He said "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."
And
341 He said "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."Leads to deduce that Zachariah was already fasting (not speaking) during day.
Comparaison of
2183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.2184 A few number of days; however, if any of you is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.and
2203 And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to Him that you will be gathered.
Using the marker ?few number of days? (Ayyamm maadoudat) leads to identify also remembering god few days with siyyam
So fasting is a spiritual retreat.
The rest of proofs comes from the meaning of Ramadan.From Arabic dictionary, we found that
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.Ramadhyou means first rains after the summer.
So Shahr Ramadan can mean, according to ayman?s meaning of shar, the full moon of September.The expression laylatou el Qadr can also mean the night of perfect measure between day and night, wich would be the autumn equinox. The expression Qadr is used many times to mean measure (54-49) and expressly use for measure between days and night length in verse
7320 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it; and a group of those who are with you. And God measures (YOUKADDIROU) the night and the day??
We know that shahr Ramadan and laylatou el Qadr (night of decree ??) are the same since it is when quran was revealead and it is when angels and spirit descent.
Using dates and verse 19-25, we knows that rouh (spirit) descended on Issa on a day where dates are rutab. Also that period.
The announce of issa to meriem was done during a retreat (3-45 and 19-16 and 19-21). The birth of issa was during another retreat (19-22)The annonce of Yahia to Zachariah was also, as we have seen, during the period of retreat.
The ten days of retreat are clearly emphasized for Moses during a period of revelation (7-142). (yom kippour ? is around this period)
The verse 2-196 seems to indicate that fasting and hajj are at the same period.
Hajj is here with the meaning of debate and a kind of festival where unbelievers are called to debate with muslims making the Hajj.Another interesting coincidence is that there is a jewish festival during the full moon just after the equinox of autumn. And the more interesting is that this festival is called souccot and that souccout means silence in Arabic.
so Hajj and fasting are the ten days dedicated to god and to his message by spititual retreat or debating with unbelievers.
Peace
