hajj / feast / debate

sushi1992

w/salaam,

My view on "al kaaba" is that it likely refers to an area/region. Either a base/valley, or an area raised (in relation to surrounding terrain). I mainly say this because it is clear in Quran that certain restrictions are in place in the inviolable months, in an area, thus it is a logical necessity to have such an area demarcated, hence the "al kaaba" reference.

"al masjid al haram" is "the inviolable time of SJD/submission/honour" and refers to the time-period of the inviolable months.

I never said safwa and marwa were two stones. It seems it refers to the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering/cooking. I am not 100% on this, but whatever they are, they are likely related to food/provision, due to the context and the other sha'air in Quran.

Selam ),

Hmph.. interesting points.

So the Ka'ba in your opinion is not the Ka'ba as we see today? Or it can be one of those options. Reading the Quran I do also think it refers to some area like a valley or something but then there isn't any exact location given.

Also in regards to "al-masjid-al-haram", how could this be a time period? We are told to face it wherever we are... there is no relation to time mentioned in the verses (2.149 i think it is..). I always take it to mean "the inviolable state/institution of obedience"... as I saw one post was well explained for this reasoning. Either way, I don't feel quite happy with the FM translation of this...

Apologies Wakas, I was quickly skimming through your posts and trying to understand where you were going with "safwa" and "marwa". I am also not in agreement that they are the mountains I see today. I am in agreement that they are some form related to the festival where preparation is being done for something. I'm also trying to gather archaelogical evidence which shows us that the Masjid al Haram we see today is NOT the one mentioned in the Quran. I've only got some insight by certain "websites" which show me when the Quran was first written, when Muhammed died and also when the Masjid was build and it seems to be a good certain number of years after Muhammed died... Also same thing with the 2 "mountains".. safwa and marwa, these were apparently given/assigned names to after the Quran was written.. -sighs- it's all a bit confusing.. and it makes me think that the Arabs were attempting to sway people from what the Quran/Muhammed were trying to put across at a very early stage ...

Peace ) peace

mmkhan

Salaam,

I'm also curious about your conclusion of the Ka'ba and the two "mountains" (which I believe were later named as well as al-masjid-al-haram). Do you still believe that the 2 stones mentioned are actually for animal sacrificing?

I think 594-95 may help to understand the location. I visited Makkah but never seen any cattle where my hands can reach except for half naked people.

I don't know if these aayaats are already been discussed in this thread. If so, please excuse me.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

sushi1992

Salaam,

I think 594-95 may help to understand the location. I visited Makkah but never seen any cattle where my hands can reach except for half naked people.

I don't know if these aayaats are already been discussed in this thread. If so, please excuse me.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Selam mmkhan ,

So do you believe anywhere that you can get livestock .... |... sorry it's 3am here (...

Peace peace

Wakas

salaam sushi,

2142-151 requires time and research to understand. I am currently working on it ;D
In brief, I would say however that "wajh" does not necessarily mean the physical face, and the understanding of "the inviolable state/institution of obedience" has issues, some of which are critical, e.g. it would imply their previous "qiblah/focus/direction" was not this, the change in qiblah implies an easing of circumstances/striving, and when it says this change will result in no debate against you, I personally do not see how that would be the case in that understanding.

I am looking at all these angles. Hopefully there will be more discussion on this issue in future.

mmkhan

Selam mmkhan ),

So do you believe anywhere that you can get livestock .... |... sorry it's 3am here (...

Peace peace

Salaam Shushi,

nope Sorry no idea about the highlighted part above.

About Kaaba I believe it has to be something coming out of ground naturally not man-made structure over the ground. It took from 56 where Allah used the word "kaabaiyni" that means "two kaabaas" if you notice, these kaabaiyni referred to two edge of "fibula and tibia" bones of our legs called malleolus. Images below shows you what kaabaiyni is referring to, inshaAllah.

http//www.pediatric-orthopedics.com/Topics/Bones/Tib_Fib/LowerViewAxis.jpg
http//www.proprofs.com/flashcards/upload/a7346852.jpg

So, kaaba has to be a end part of long structure or else self grown out area from the ground level. This is my personal understanding about Kaaba, if anyone find it wrong please do correct me.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

sushi1992

Salaam Shushi,

nope Sorry no idea about the highlighted part above.

About Kaaba I believe it has to be something coming out of ground naturally not man-made structure over the ground. It took from 56 where Allah used the word "kaabaiyni" that means "two kaabaas" if you notice, these kaabaiyni referred to two edge of "fibula and tibia" bones of our legs called malleolus. Images below shows you what kaabaiyni is referring to, inshaAllah.

http//www.pediatric-orthopedics.com/Topics/Bones/Tib_Fib/LowerViewAxis.jpg
http//www.proprofs.com/flashcards/upload/a7346852.jpg

So, kaaba has to be a end part of long structure or else self grown out area from the ground level. This is my personal understanding about Kaaba, if anyone find it wrong please do correct me.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Selam mmKhan,

I always thought of kaaba as a sanctuary but this explanation has slightly confused me. Could you think of any place that fits your description of maybe a structure self grown out area from ground level as you say ).

Peace peace

mmkhan

Selam mmKhan,

I always thought of kaaba as a sanctuary but this explanation has slightly confused me. Could you think of any place that fits your description of maybe a structure self grown out area from ground level as you say .

Peace peace

Salaam Sushi,

Yesterday one of my friend researching about Kaaba said that every joint of bones in our body called "Ka'aab'' from which Kaaba is derived. I have no idea about this, still I am trying to learn n study further.

It is not yet clear to me that Kaaba is physical or non physical place. Brother Bender may put some light on this further inshaAllah. It is not yet clear to me because what could be the purpose of having a physical place? I did not understand logic behind it. Anyway, this is not my conclusion, but still I am in doubt.

BTW, physical self grown area could be mountains or hills they came out of ground. If it is physical then we can try to find out by Allah's permission, inshaAllah.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

JKRethland

Salaams
I will stick to hajj/pilgrimage as supposedly being to Mecca, but that the hadith additions are false until "everyone" can prove 100% that its different. Only problem is we cant make hajj there because its run by non Quran Only people and they dont accept Us as being Muslims and there is pagan practices being performed during the hajj there,so it would have to be purged from all its heathenism before we could make pilgrimage.

At one time I was thinking it was to baca valley in Israel, but that was just a small valley that people traveled through to get to Mt.Zion aka the Temple Mount and not a pilgrimage site itself.

Then I was thinking it was some where in the desert of Paran, as this is mentioned in Genesis 20 21God was with the boy(Ishmael) as he grew up. He lived in the desert and learned to shoot with a bow. 21 While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got him a wife from Egypt.

http//mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/3366474.jpg

May Allah forgive me for my wrongs and lead us all to Guidance and Understanding, inshaAllah.

JKRethland

Nahal Nekarot Israel Paran

http//www.panoramio.com/photo/72916627

Ashraf

Brother Wakas, you are one of the most knowledgeable researchers of the great reading that I know. You have produced one of the most helpful research tools in PRLonline. In fact, you helped me a great deal in achieving my present understanding. Here is what you said on the translation of ?haj? on PRL

= Haa-Jiim-Jiim = to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, pilgrimage.
Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute.
Refrain/abstain.

Hmm? no ?debate? here. But maybe we missed it because Lane Lexicon has 3 pages on ?haj? and thus in the tens of meanings it would have been easy to miss it. So let?s look at Lane?s

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 149, 150, 151

HAJJ = OVERCOME ANOTHER BY

This is the best translation i think from PRL.

What does it mean by OVERCOME ANOTHER BY ?

HAJJ was instructed to be organized by Prophet Ibrahim to OVERCOME the HUNTING RESTRICTION ENFORCEMENT PERIOD. Since the people couldnt longer have their diet supply from the wildlife during Shahral Haram, AN ALTERNATIVE SUPPLY must be in place, which is THE LIVESTOCK (bahimah al-anam). This provide a way out because of the restriction and this is what HAJJ is all about.

HAJJ is not a mindless ritual (spinning cube with 2 piece towel). It is about STOCKPILING Bayt Al-Haram with LIVESTOCK. During this 3 months, nearby neighbouring people of all believe (Especially Non Muslim) came here to take their supply and understand God universal Law of Hunting Restriction.

This event provide opportunity to Prophet Ibrahim to explain to Hajj guest about the importance of observing this Universal Law, that is to preserve wildlife for balance ECOSYSTEM for the long term benefit of mankind.

Wildlife is the original creation of God, the original seed which later from it, people undertake domestication process where some of the wildlife species becoming our main food supply.

WE must love and protect this wildlife as one of our major obligation to Allah and services to the people.

This is the forgotten law, that has caused the wildlife extinction all over the world.

Peace.

ayman

HAJJ = OVERCOME ANOTHER BY
This is the best translation i think from PRL.
What does it mean by OVERCOME ANOTHER BY ?
HAJJ was instructed to be organized by Prophet Ibrahim to OVERCOME the HUNTING RESTRICTION ENFORCEMENT PERIOD. Since the people couldnt longer have their diet supply from the wildlife during Shahral Haram, AN ALTERNATIVE SUPPLY must be in place, which is THE LIVESTOCK (bahimah al-anam). This provide a way out because of the restriction and this is what HAJJ is all about.
HAJJ is not a mindless ritual (spinning cube with 2 piece towel). It is about STOCKPILING Bayt Al-Haram with LIVESTOCK. During this 3 months, nearby neighbouring people of all believe (Especially Non Muslim) came here to take their supply and understand God universal Law of Hunting Restriction.
This event provide opportunity to Prophet Ibrahim to explain to Hajj guest about the importance of observing this Universal Law, that is to preserve wildlife for balance ECOSYSTEM for the long term benefit of mankind.
Wildlife is the original creation of God, the original seed which later from it, people undertake domestication process where some of the wildlife species becoming our main food supply.
WE must love and protect this wildlife as one of our major obligation to Allah and services to the people.
This is the forgotten law, that has caused the wildlife extinction all over the world.

I agree. It is closely related to the hunting restriction. It is definitely an amazing sign that all those three things come together at that time

The best time for hunting restriction.
The harvest.
The time when lifestock is most plentiful.

Peace,

Ayman

noshirk

to ayman

what do you think about this ? (i reproduce a post)
it is near of what you think

salam

I will try to traduce part of the french article found here (http//nawaat.org/portail/2012/07/24/ibadat-el-chouyoukhs-5-la-grande-utopie-de-la-reforme-et-le-bonus-dukhanus/)

Let begin with this verse

2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.

We can note that drinking and eating until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn doesn?t mean clearly that we can?t no more eat at all after. This kind of deduction would make the interdiction of approaching women redundant.

Now, the true definition of fasting is given here

1926 "So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then say 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"

Comparison between of two descriptions of the same miracle of God

1910 He said "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."

And
341 He said "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."

Leads to deduce that Zachariah was already fasting (not speaking) during day.

Comparaison of
2183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.2184 A few number of days; however, if any of you is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.

and

2203 And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to Him that you will be gathered.

Using the marker ?few number of days? (Ayyamm maadoudat) leads to identify also remembering god few days with siyyam

So fasting is a spiritual retreat.
The rest of proofs comes from the meaning of Ramadan.

From Arabic dictionary, we found that
.
.

Ramadhyou means first rains after the summer.
So Shahr Ramadan can mean, according to ayman?s meaning of shar, the full moon of September.

The expression laylatou el Qadr can also mean the night of perfect measure between day and night, wich would be the autumn equinox. The expression Qadr is used many times to mean measure (54-49) and expressly use for measure between days and night length in verse

7320 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it; and a group of those who are with you. And God measures (YOUKADDIROU) the night and the day??

We know that shahr Ramadan and laylatou el Qadr (night of decree ??) are the same since it is when quran was revealead and it is when angels and spirit descent.

Using dates and verse 19-25, we knows that rouh (spirit) descended on Issa on a day where dates are rutab. Also that period.
The announce of issa to meriem was done during a retreat (3-45 and 19-16 and 19-21). The birth of issa was during another retreat (19-22)

The annonce of Yahia to Zachariah was also, as we have seen, during the period of retreat.

The ten days of retreat are clearly emphasized for Moses during a period of revelation (7-142). (yom kippour ? is around this period)

The verse 2-196 seems to indicate that fasting and hajj are at the same period.
Hajj is here with the meaning of debate and a kind of festival where unbelievers are called to debate with muslims making the Hajj.

Another interesting coincidence is that there is a jewish festival during the full moon just after the equinox of autumn. And the more interesting is that this festival is called souccot and that souccout means silence in Arabic.

so Hajj and fasting are the ten days dedicated to god and to his message by spititual retreat or debating with unbelievers.

Peace

ayman

Peace Noshirk,

Let begin with this verse
2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.
We can note that drinking and eating until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn doesn?t mean clearly that we can?t no more eat at all after. This kind of deduction would make the interdiction of approaching women redundant.
Now, the true definition of fasting is given here
1926 "So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then say 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"
Comparison between of two descriptions of the same miracle of God
1910 He said "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."
And
341 He said "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."
Leads to deduce that Zachariah was already fasting (not speaking) during day.
Comparaison of
2183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.2184 A few number of days; however, if any of you is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.
and
2203 And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to Him that you will be gathered.
Using the marker ?few number of days? (Ayyamm maadoudat) leads to identify also remembering god few days with siyyam
So fasting is a spiritual retreat.

Strictly speaking "siyam" means to "abstain". I agree that it is an exercise that is part of a spiritual retreat. Also, if you look at 2183-185 and how 2185 says that the god brought down the great reading with guidance and then concludes by saying that part of the exercise is to magnify the god for what he has guided you, then being guided to the correct timing from the great reading is definitely a big part.

The rest of proofs comes from the meaning of Ramadan.
From Arabic dictionary, we found that
.
.
Ramadhyou means first rains after the summer.
So Shahr Ramadan can mean, according to ayman?s meaning of shar, the full moon of September.

This is where I disagree. The primary meaning is scorching heat. As per the dictionary, the rain of late summer/early fall is called so because it catches up with the extreme heat of the summer. So still the primary meaning is scorching heat. In this case, when applied to rain/clouds. It literally means hot rain/clouds. Similarly, when it is applied to the full moon it literally means hot full-moon, which is definitely the one after the summer solstice and not the one in the fall.

The expression laylatou el Qadr can also mean the night of perfect measure between day and night, wich would be the autumn equinox. The expression Qadr is used many times to mean measure (54-49) and expressly use for measure between days and night length in verse
7320 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it; and a group of those who are with you. And God measures (YOUKADDIROU) the night and the day??

There is a big difference between measure and equivalence. There is no basis for making the jump from measure to equivalence. There are two issues with the idea of the autumn equinox

The full-moon doesn't necessarily fall on the night of the autumn equinox, which according to this understanding is the reason for the word "measure".
Since there are 2 equinoxes, you can't measure the year using the equinox, which contradicts 1712 where we are clearly told that the day and night are used to measure the year. The only way you can measure the year this way is using the solstices.

A simpler and more correct explanation that doesn't force the meaning of "equivalence" is that the term "measure" in this case simply refers to the measure of the stages of the moon from full to crescent as confirmed by 3639

And the moon We have measured ("qadarnahu&quot it in descending stages, until it returns like an old curved sheath.

We know that shahr Ramadan and laylatou el Qadr (night of decree ??) are the same since it is when quran was revealead and it is when angels and spirit descent.
Using dates and verse 19-25, we knows that rouh (spirit) descended on Issa on a day where dates are rutab. Also that period.
The announce of issa to meriem was done during a retreat (3-45 and 19-16 and 19-21). The birth of issa was during another retreat (19-22)

The whole idea of using the maturity of dates produced by the palm trees is not accurate. Firstly, different species of dates mature at different times. I have personally visited the Sinai peninsula during the month of July and saw the mature yellow dates of its palms fall on the ground. Also, the act of a woman in labor shaking a palm tree and getting dates is not normal. Either the dates will fall by themselves or someone will have to pick them up. Those palm trees are huge and a woman in labor would hardly be able to shake them. So the episode definitely involves divine intervention, which means that the dates didn't necessarily follow their normal maturity cycle.

The annonce of Yahia to Zachariah was also, as we have seen, during the period of retreat.
The ten days of retreat are clearly emphasized for Moses during a period of revelation (7-142). (yom kippour ? is around this period)
The verse 2-196 seems to indicate that fasting and hajj are at the same period.

2196 simply indicates that they are both a few days, not necessarily the same few days. Also, the harvest feast/hagg is known full-moons (plural) and not a single time in the year like "ramadan".

Hajj is here with the meaning of debate and a kind of festival where unbelievers are called to debate with muslims making the Hajj.

This has been extensively discussed on this thread and the conclusion is that "hagg" means feast, which was also the pre-existing Hebrew meaning at the time the great reading descended.

Another interesting coincidence is that there is a jewish festival during the full moon just after the equinox of autumn. And the more interesting is that this festival is called souccot and that souccout means silence in Arabic.
so Hajj and fasting are the ten days dedicated to god and to his message by spititual retreat or debating with unbelievers.

I believe that the Sukoot in Hebrew means the tent or temporary housing people build when they travel or go outside. This seems more related to the retreat aspect as well as the harvest aspect. Also, the Hagg Sukoot always coincides with the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice. Since we know that we have four restricted full-moons, then this would make it the final harvest full-moon. So the first restricted full-moon is for fasting and the 2nd is for the first harvest feast, the third is for the middle harvest feast and the fourth is for the final harvest feast. The harvest feast can be done during any of the three or all three depending on the region and the optimal availability of food for the feast.

Peace,

Ayman

Ashraf

This has been extensively discussed on this thread and the conclusion is that "hagg" means feast, which was also the pre-existing Hebrew meaning at the time the great reading descended.

Peace bro Ayman,

I understand that some arabs pronounce "jamal" as "gamal" but i couldnt comprehend if they could pronounce the following "fain hajju faqul..." as "fain haggu faqul.."

Hajj, although have a lot to do with feast, but the translation hajj=feast may not cover the definition of hajj in quranic perspective. Eg. Hadiy, abstaintion, no rafas, no fusuq, no jidal, instruction, doing business, exposure/education on what restriction law is all about etc.

Thus "Hajj" may best translated as "Overcome" or "Counter" action to be taken due to the hunting restriction.

Solstice as the measurement marker for a year look more promising than equinox. I agree you will not get equal day time and equal night time on full moon, during equinox.

On Aiyam madudat, quranic definition from my understanding is min 2 day max 10 day. (Faman ta'ajala fi yaumaini.." vs "tilka asyaratun kamilah&quot.

Peace.

ayman

Peace brother Ashraf

I understand that some arabs pronounce "jamal" as "gamal" but i couldnt comprehend if they could pronounce the following "fain hajju faqul..." as "fain haggu faqul.."

There is no difference in Arabic between "hagg" and "hajj" and it is just a variant in how they are pronounced. It is like the word "issue" in English where the "ss" can be pronounced as a "sh" or as a "s" but the meaning is exactly the same.

Hajj, although have a lot to do with feast, but the translation hajj=feast may not cover the definition of hajj in quranic perspective. Eg. Hadiy, abstaintion, no rafas, no fusuq, no jidal, instruction, doing business, exposure/education on what restriction law is all about etc.
Thus "Hajj" may best translated as "Overcome" or "Counter" action to be taken due to the hunting restriction.

The hunting restriction is related to "hagg" as far as that "hagg"/feast provides an alternative source of food for those who normally rely on hunting. So it again goes back to the food which is definitely a primary aspect of the feast. Thus, note that if someone violates the restriction and kills a wild animal, then they must compensate by providing livestock that must reach the inviolable house where the feast takes place.

Solstice as the measurement marker for a year look more promising than equinox. I agree you will not get equal day time and equal night time on full moon, during equinox.

Yes. The solstice is the ONLY way to implement 1712.

On Aiyam madudat, quranic definition from my understanding is min 2 day max 10 day. (Faman ta'ajala fi yaumaini.." vs "tilka asyaratun kamilah&quot.

The minimum is 3 days and max is 10 days. The 2 days is an exception to "ayyam madudat" for those who are hurried. Therefore, they are told that it is OK to do it in 2 days. Had 2 days been understood as already the min of "ayyam madudat" then the "no blame on him who hurries in 2 days" clause wouldn't be needed.

Peace,

Ayman

noshirk

Thank you brother ayman
sorry for my english
i liked very much your articles about dates, hajj, salat, siyyam etc.

This is where I disagree. The primary meaning is scorching heat. As per the dictionary, the rain of late summer/early fall is called so because it catches up with the extreme heat of the summer. So still the primary meaning is scorching heat. In this case, when applied to rain/clouds. It literally means hot rain/clouds. Similarly, when it is applied to the full moon it literally means hot full-moon, which is definitely the one after the summer solstice and not the one in the fall.

There is a big difference between measure and equivalence. There is no basis for making the jump from measure to equivalence. There are two issues with the idea of the autumn equinox

The full-moon doesn't necessarily fall on the night of the autumn equinox, which according to this understanding is the reason for the word "measure".
Since there are 2 equinoxes, you can't measure the year using the equinox, which contradicts 1712 where we are clearly told that the day and night are used to measure the year. The only way you can measure the year this way is using the solstices.

A simpler and more correct explanation that doesn't force the meaning of "equivalence" is that the term "measure" in this case simply refers to the measure of the stages of the moon from full to crescent as confirmed by 3639

And the moon We have measured ("qadarnahu&quot it in descending stages, until it returns like an old curved sheath.

The whole idea of using the maturity of dates produced by the palm trees is not accurate. Firstly, different species of dates mature at different times. I have personally visited the Sinai peninsula during the month of July and saw the mature yellow dates of its palms fall on the ground. Also, the act of a woman in labor shaking a palm tree and getting dates is not normal. Either the dates will fall by themselves or someone will have to pick them up. Those palm trees are huge and a woman in labor would hardly be able to shake them. So the episode definitely involves divine intervention, which means that the dates didn't necessarily follow their normal maturity cycle.

sorry but i am not convinced. There is no reason to prefer "scorching heat" interpretation to first autumn rains. They are both true linguistical meanings. Putting all arguments asides, i prefer the autumn interpretation.

your interpretation of laylatou el qadar give no precise date. The equinox interpretation give two possible dates in the year and meaning of ramadhan select wich one is the true one. The shar ramadhan would be the first shahr after the autum equinox. Exceptionnal years where equinox coincide with shahr can be one of the years where revelation occured for Muhammad, as quran says. There is no reason to consider laylatou el qadr and laylatou ramadhan occuring the same night every year.

Now i have some doubts concerning interpretation that leads to shahr=Full Moon.
Perhaps shahr=new moon.
the reason i doubted is this page http//www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html
autumn equinox of year 610 was a night of new moon.

2196 simply indicates that they are both a few days, not necessarily the same few days. Also, the harvest feast/hagg is known full-moons (plural) and not a single time in the year like "ramadan".

sorry. But 2.196 clearly indicates that siyyam is required for those who made only Omra. Why it is required for them and not for those who made neither Hajj nor omra ?
i think that it is logical to assume that making Hajj can gives dispense for siyyam if a hady is done. So, the periode of siyyam is also a period of Hajj (reverse is false)

I believe that the Sukoot in Hebrew means the tent or temporary housing people build when they travel or go outside. This seems more related to the retreat aspect as well as the harvest aspect. Also, the Hagg Sukoot always coincides with the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice. Since we know that we have four restricted full-moons, then this would make it the final harvest full-moon. So the first restricted full-moon is for fasting and the 2nd is for the first harvest feast, the third is for the middle harvest feast and the fourth is for the final harvest feast. The harvest feast can be done during any of the three or all three depending on the region and the optimal availability of food for the feast.

I think that there is no indication in Quran that the 4 periods of Hajj are consecutive.
The expression ashor maaloumat can mean

try deductions
-see hadiths
-see thora and what remains of traditions of belivers before muhammad
-other thing

I think that the true interpretation is the third. In older traditions of monotheists, Feats are not consecutive months.
I think that quran ask us to see other "cultures" to complete our religion.
I think that quran ask us to consider other real believers (jews, christians, zoroasters ...) as muslims to god even if that they don't believe in quran and Muhammad. It is surprising but logical if we read quran. The numeros verses speaking about prophets before Muhammad is not a simple waste of time in the quran. I am now convinced that muslim for God is not the usual sense of Muslim nowadays and that not only "muslims" are muslims.

Peace

ayman

Peace brothee Noshirk,

Thank you brother ayman
sorry for my english
i liked very much your articles about dates, hajj, salat, siyyam etc.

No worries. Please let me know if you speak Arabic and if you prefer we can converse in Arabic and English.

sorry but i am not convinced. There is no reason to prefer "scorching heat" interpretation to first autumn rains. They are both true linguistical meanings. Putting all arguments asides, i prefer the autumn interpretation.
your interpretation of laylatou el qadar give no precise date.

It is tied to the most obvious natural phenomenon of the full-moon, specifically "shahr ramadan" is precisely the full-moon after the summer solstice.

The equinox interpretation give two possible dates in the year and meaning of ramadhan select wich one is the true one. The shar ramadhan would be the first shahr after the autum equinox. Exceptionnal years where equinox coincide with shahr can be one of the years where revelation occured for Muhammad, as quran says. There is no reason to consider laylatou el qadr and laylatou ramadhan occuring the same night every year.

This violates 1712 where we are clearly told that the year is not based on the equinoxes but is based on one of the solstices.

Now i have some doubts concerning interpretation that leads to shahr=Full Moon.
Perhaps shahr=new moon.
the reason i doubted is this page http//www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html
autumn equinox of year 610 was a night of new moon.

There is no linguistic basis for shahr=new moon. None of the dictionaries gives this meaning. On the other hand, the dictionary clearly says that it means full-moon.

sorry. But 2.196 clearly indicates that siyyam is required for those who made only Omra. Why it is required for them and not for those who made neither Hajj nor omra ?
i think that it is logical to assume that making Hajj can gives dispense for siyyam if a hady is done. So, the periode of siyyam is also a period of Hajj (reverse is false)

It is required as a compensation for not providing food for the feast. If you translate "hajj" and "omra" then you will be able to better understand how everything is connected.

I think that there is no indication in Quran that the 4 periods of Hajj are consecutive.
The expression ashor maaloumat can mean

try deductions
-see hadiths
-see thora and what remains of traditions of belivers before muhammad
-other thing

The inviolable full-moons are definitely consecutive as per 95.

As for the "known full-moons", they are the harvest full-moons that everyone knows. With the correct translation of "hagg" as "harvest feast", the question answers itself. All people know when their harvest is and therefore when their harvest feast where they thank the god for the harvest and share food with the poor and needy take place. They also know that during the harvest time when food is plentiful, it is also the best time to restrict hunting so as to preserve wild life while at the same time have alternative source of food. They also know that this is the time where lifestock is most plentiful.

I think that the true interpretation is the third. In older traditions of monotheists, Feats are not consecutive months.
I think that quran ask us to see other "cultures" to complete our religion.
I think that quran ask us to consider other real believers (jews, christians, zoroasters ...) as muslims to god even if that they don't believe in quran and Muhammad. It is surprising but logical if we read quran. The numeros verses speaking about prophets before Muhammad is not a simple waste of time in the quran. I am now convinced that muslim for God is not the usual sense of Muslim nowadays and that not only "muslims" are muslims.

Harvest feasts are on consecutive full-moons, first harvest, middle harvest and final harvest. The "Hagg Sukot" of the people of the book has its roots and timing as a harvest feast. I don't think that the answer is "traditions". To me saying that the answer is "traditions" is another way of saying "I don't know and I give up".

Peace,

Ayman

noshirk

thank you brother ayman.
I read and write arabic. my second langage is french and the third is english
i can understand english very well and we can continue in english if you forgive my grammary mistakes and my style.

Now, verse 9-5 says when "insalakha el alshor el haram".
We both agree that ashor in no more a 30 day period. So even if they are consecutive as you say, there is an interruption of 20 days between them. If we accept 20 days interruption wa can accept more.
Now clearly, for me, assuming that ashor are consecutive is only a deduction that can be false.

I can understand 9-5 by, "after each insilakh".
Now if Hajj lasts for only 10 days. Consecutive Shahr hypothesis leads to 10 days of Hajj, pause and return home for 20 days, back to hajj for 10 days, pause and return home for 20 days etc...
Assuming that Hajj is not during consecutive month leads to a more equilibrated repartition of periods of Hajj during the year.
Notice also that the interruption of 20 days invalidates in someways the arguments that interdiction of hunting during "the period were wa are horomon".is for taking care of the fauna and wildlife. It is also an adhoc argument.

I have read many times verse 17-12. I cannot see why you think it points towards solistices and exclude equinoxes.
But the expression laylatou qadr points, for me, to an equinoxe as perfect measure of night and day. If no, what does God mean by laylatou el qadr ?

The word that make me thinking that quran points towards old "islamic traditions" and "old books of god" is word "maaloumat" of verse 2-197. What God meant by that word ?
Quran is continuation and correction of "olds" traditions. Please read carefully verse 16-64 and 27-76.
I think it is a big mistake done by nowadays muslims to not to take care of what torah is saying. I could even says that it is a sectarian approch for the category of muslims that received the last "volume" of the books of God. We both know that islam didn't began with muhammad.
i think It is a big mistake to forgot all what allah said before quran was revealed even if we know that it was perverted. Quran is here to correct mistakes.
Read please 5-43 ,7-157 and mainly 5-68. I consider myself involved by the expression Ahl el kitab and 5-68 clearly ask me to see in torah and injeel(?).

if we assume that quran correct what was wrong we can make another reading of 2-189.
First, i have also assumed that it was a denial of taking the new moon as a shar or as a starting for new month. I assumed that entering home by back is related to new moon and entering home by proper doors was related to full moon.
I really have changed my opinion while writing last post and when i had the idea to verify to what period of moon corresponded the autumn equinox of year 610. I was convinced that i will find a full moon night. But it was new moon night.
As a guy with scientifc background, i revised "all the theory" to match with facts.

Back to verse 2-189, if we assume that quran corrects wrong doing, we can notice that jewish feast correspond all to full moon period. So full moon is the wrong doing if we interpret 2-189 as a correction.
It is not logical to assume that it corrects wrong doing of muslims after quran was revealed. Even if it is possible, it would be a too heavy change for scholars after quran to change full moon to new moon as it is done now for the starting of a month.

I revised your arguments (that convinced me before) about Full moon . Shahr means moon. Full moon is deduction. (please see http//www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=&#1585
Shahr have same root as shahara (known, visible) and quran precise that shahr is visible (man shahada shahr ramadhan). New moon and full moon are both visible.
New moon can be also a kind of drawing for a shahira (pregnant women).

I will give you now my thoughts about the 4 ashor haram even if i have no solid arguments and that i can appear ridiculous.
3 of them would be given by torah and jewish calendar (if we reintegrates the nassyi as you said and don't count the 13 shahr).
The remaining one is the more hazardous for me. It would corresponds to christmas feast.
Christmas feast was imported in christianism from the Zoroaster cult of mithra.
Please read http//persia.edublogs.org/files/2009/03/article-christmas-is-an-old-tradtion-from-persia-a.pdf
Even if i think that jesus is not issa, i believe now that Zoroastrianism and christianism are inspired from the true story of issa as we found many correspondances with the true story of issa as it is told to us in the quran.
Christian gospel would be a somewhat true story of the a false prophet called Jesus inspired from a true prophet called Issa.
I know that it is unbelievable and that i can be wrong.
So Christmas would be a kind a revenge from GOD. It is the feast forgotten by jews due to their hatred of Issa, the prophet that they have erased from their beliefs. Nowadays, Christmas would be a good practice for bad reasons.

Really brother ayman, i would like to thank you about your articles. They had a great influence on my way of thinking.
Before, i was not aware about the great mystifications in words usage. For arabic speaking guy as me, hajj, omra, soujoud and masjid are obvious words. Shahada is also obvious word.
Till now, i cannot realize how could i have been so dummy to the true meaning of words and how i accepted so easily the explanations that the stupid scholars maid for these words.
Thank you very much.

ayman

Peace brother Noshirk,

thank you brother ayman.
I read and write arabic. my second langage is french and the third is english
i can understand english very well and we can continue in english if you forgive my grammary mistakes and my style.

Since you know Arabic, I would suggest reviewing the article on the timing in Arabic here

http//www.egyptianoasis.net/%E4%CF%C7%C1-%C7%E1%C5%ED%E3%C7%E4-14/%E3%CA%ED-%E1%ED%E1%C9-%C7%E1%DE%CF%D1%BF-36503/

Now, verse 9-5 says when "insalakha el alshor el haram".
We both agree that ashor in no more a 30 day period. So even if they are consecutive as you say, there is an interruption of 20 days between them. If we accept 20 days interruption wa can accept more.
Now clearly, for me, assuming that ashor are consecutive is only a deduction that can be false.
I can understand 9-5 by, "after each insilakh".
Now if Hajj lasts for only 10 days. Consecutive Shahr hypothesis leads to 10 days of Hajj, pause and return home for 20 days, back to hajj for 10 days, pause and return home for 20 days etc...
Assuming that Hajj is not during consecutive month leads to a more equilibrated repartition of periods of Hajj during the year.
Notice also that the interruption of 20 days invalidates in someways the arguments that interdiction of hunting during "the period were wa are horomon".is for taking care of the fauna and wildlife. It is also an adhoc argument.

Everyone understands that when someone says "we should wait until four full-moons had passed to do something" then this doesn't mean that we can do this something in between.

This is confirmed by 2226-228 where we hear the same wording used for full-moon and menstruations. Both are events and counted the same way. Surely, you cannot be proposing that the woman who is asked to wait for 3 menstruations before getting married can get married in the time in between when she doesn't have her menstruation????! But this is exactly what your logic above would mean.

I have read many times verse 17-12. I cannot see why you think it points towards solistices and exclude equinoxes.

1712 talks about knowing the years from the day and night. The only way you can count the years based on the day and night is if you count the time between shortest/longest day/night since each distinguished solstice event occurs only once per year. On the other hand, we cannot use the equinoxes to count the year since equinoxes occur twice per year and it is only half a year between equinoxes.

But the expression laylatou qadr points, for me, to an equinoxe as perfect measure of night and day. If no, what does God mean by laylatou el qadr ?

Please read 3639 to know what "measure" means with respect to the moon. It is the night where the moon is measured in descending stages until it reaches the crescent shape. Since the moon can ONLY descend in size from the full-moon so it is the night of the full-moon.

The word that make me thinking that quran points towards old "islamic traditions" and "old books of god" is word "maaloumat" of verse 2-197. What God meant by that word ?
Quran is continuation and correction of "olds" traditions. Please read carefully verse 16-64 and 27-76.
I think it is a big mistake done by nowadays muslims to not to take care of what torah is saying. I could even says that it is a sectarian approch for the category of muslims that received the last "volume" of the books of God. We both know that islam didn't began with muhammad.
i think It is a big mistake to forgot all what allah said before quran was revealed even if we know that it was perverted. Quran is here to correct mistakes.
Read please 5-43 ,7-157 and mainly 5-68. I consider myself involved by the expression Ahl el kitab and 5-68 clearly ask me to see in torah and injeel(?).

To me "known" means that they are known irrespective of a book or traditions. The harvest moons are known naturally all over the world and in all cultures.

if we assume that quran correct what was wrong we can make another reading of 2-189.
First, i have also assumed that it was a denial of taking the new moon as a shar or as a starting for new month. I assumed that entering home by back is related to new moon and entering home by proper doors was related to full moon.
I really have changed my opinion while writing last post and when i had the idea to verify to what period of moon corresponded the autumn equinox of year 610. I was convinced that i will find a full moon night. But it was new moon night.
As a guy with scientifc background, i revised "all the theory" to match with facts.

What fact? Where did you scientifically get that year 610 date from?? This 610 is a completely baseless date that has nothing to do with the great reading.

Back to verse 2-189, if we assume that quran corrects wrong doing, we can notice that jewish feast correspond all to full moon period. So full moon is the wrong doing if we interpret 2-189 as a correction.
It is not logical to assume that it corrects wrong doing of muslims after quran was revealed. Even if it is possible, it would be a too heavy change for scholars after quran to change full moon to new moon as it is done now for the starting of a month.
I revised your arguments (that convinced me before) about Full moon . Shahr means moon. Full moon is deduction. (please see http//www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=&#1585
Shahr have same root as shahara (known, visible) and quran precise that shahr is visible (man shahada shahr ramadhan). New moon and full moon are both visible.
New moon can be also a kind of drawing for a shahira (pregnant women).

Please read Lisan Al Arab carefully. There is no such meaning as new moon. On the other hand, the full-moon is clearly given as a meaning. Here is the original entry of Lisan Al Arab in Arabic

( &#1576
.

Clearly, Lisan Al-Arab states that "shahr" is the moon when it is apparent AND nearly FULL. It doesn't say anything about the NEW MOON. So the NEW MOON is a completely made up meaning. Also, the NEW MOON is not apparent and not clearly visible like you claim. If you disagree then please witness the new moon for yourself and take a picture of it yourself and post it here. You will never be able to do it probably for your entire life.

I will give you now my thoughts about the 4 ashor haram even if i have no solid arguments and that i can appear ridiculous.
3 of them would be given by torah and jewish calendar (if we reintegrates the nassyi as you said and don't count the 13 shahr).
The remaining one is the more hazardous for me. It would corresponds to christmas feast.
Christmas feast was imported in christianism from the Zoroaster cult of mithra.
Please read http//persia.edublogs.org/files/2009/03/article-christmas-is-an-old-tradtion-from-persia-a.pdf
Even if i think that jesus is not issa, i believe now that Zoroastrianism and christianism are inspired from the true story of issa as we found many correspondances with the true story of issa as it is told to us in the quran.
Christian gospel would be a somewhat true story of the a false prophet called Jesus inspired from a true prophet called Issa.
I know that it is unbelievable and that i can be wrong.
So Christmas would be a kind a revenge from GOD. It is the feast forgotten by jews due to their hatred of Issa, the prophet that they have erased from their beliefs. Nowadays, Christmas would be a good practice for bad reasons.

As discussed above, the inviolable full-moons have to be consecutive as per 95.

Also, the purpose of the harvest feast/hajj and the hunting restriction is in line with the timing. Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus. It was a pagan Roman fertility goddess birthday coinciding with the birth of the sun on the winter solstice. The pagan Arabs also had the same pagan concept and you can see its traces in what they falsely call "hajj" today. However, because of using the purely lunar calendar this pagan tradition doesn't fall near the winter solstice anymore.

Really brother ayman, i would like to thank you about your articles. They had a great influence on my way of thinking.
Before, i was not aware about the great mystifications in words usage. For arabic speaking guy as me, hajj, omra, soujoud and masjid are obvious words. Shahada is also obvious word.
Till now, i cannot realize how could i have been so dummy to the true meaning of words and how i accepted so easily the explanations that the stupid scholars maid for these words.
Thank you very much.

I was also the same way and I thought I knew all those words. Moreover, in the past I also took the stupid scholars history for granted and I assumed that the great reading was revealed in 610. Now I know that those chronologies are completely bogus.

Peace,

Ayman

noshirk

Thank you brother ayman

http//www.egyptianoasis.net/%E4%CF%C7%C1-%C7%E1%C5%ED%E3%C7%E4-14/%E3%CA%ED-%E1%ED%E1%C9-%C7%E1%DE%CF%D1%BF-36503/

Thank you for the link

Everyone understands that when someone says "we should wait until four full-moons had passed to do something" then this doesn't mean that we can do this something in between.

This is confirmed by 2226-228 where we hear the same wording used for full-moon and menstruations. Both are events and counted the same way. Surely, you cannot be proposing that the woman who is asked to wait for 3 menstruations before getting married can get married in the time in between when she doesn't have her menstruation????! But this is exactly what your logic above would mean.

Sorry but I am not agree for the comparison with 2226. In verse 2226 it is clearly stipulated to wait for 4 ashor after the decision to abstain from wives. It is clear also that we don?t have to wait for 4 ashor every year.
It is not the case for verse 95. I don?t see any number four and any clear block of consecutive ashor.

In verse 2194; 2217, 52, 597 , Quran used the general expression of ?shahr haram? and not ?ashor haram?. This can be interpreted as if shahr haram was an institution and not block of ashor. Why mention shar haram individually ?

92; 9-5; 9-36 are verses where ashor haram, in plural form, are mentioned. I can read them without viewing a consecutive block of months.

1712 talks about knowing the years from the day and night. The only way you can count the years based on the day and night is if you count the time between shortest/longest day/night since each distinguished solstice event occurs only once per year. On the other hand, we cannot use the equinoxes to count the year since equinoxes occur twice per year and it is only half a year between equinoxes.

Please read 3639 to know what "measure" means with respect to the moon. It is the night where the moon is measured in descending stages until it reaches the crescent shape. Since the moon can ONLY descend in size from the full-moon so it is the night of the full-moon.

Here are verses where qadr appear with sense of measure.
15-21,15-60,22-74,23-18,25-2,34-18,41-10,42-27,43-11,54-12,54-49,65-3,73-20,76-16,77-22,77-23

In 7320 we find the expression ?God measures (Youkaddirou) the night and the day?
In 4110, we find the expression 4 equivalent periods

sorry, but in 17-12, i don't see any mention of shortest night or longer day.
I saw on the web that there is other ways to identify equinoxes without having to measure the length of night and length of day.
see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Calendar where we can read this sentence
"It is one of the oldest calendars in the world as well as the most accurate solar calendar in use today"
The persian year begins in the march equinox and you already mentionned a "story" where persian calendar was known and rejected by Omar el Khattab committee when they instituated the hijri calendar

To me "known" means that they are known irrespective of a book or traditions. The harvest moons are known naturally all over the world and in all cultures.

Notice also that I have read no good argument that prove that shahr ramadhan would be the first or the last or in the middle of the block of 4 ashor. There is no proof that the 4 month are the harvest in the year.

Notice also that arguments about hunting and harvest months doesn?t hold for south hemisphere. Equinoxes are always equinoxes anywhere in the planet while solstices are opposites in the south and north hemisphere

What fact? Where did you scientifically get that year 610 date from?? This 610 is a completely baseless date that has nothing to do with the great reading.

OK. It is a good argument. I have no proof that quran was revealed in 610.
Who Knows ? perhaps autum equinox of the good year match full moon ? 606 for example ?
I am interested in knowing if you have a theory about the good year and why you think that 610 is suspect.
Year 610 is the main reason why I thinked about new moon.
I agree that 36-39 seems to indicate that good counting should begin with full moon.
2-189 can then be reinterpreted, in terms of wrong doing, by the fact that jews begins theirs months with new moon while maintaining feasts during full moon.

Please read Lisan Al Arab carefully. There is no such meaning as new moon. On the other hand, the full-moon is clearly given as a meaning. Here is the original entry of Lisan Al Arab in Arabic

( &#1576
.

Clearly, Lisan Al-Arab states that "shahr" is the moon when it is apparent AND nearly FULL. It doesn't say anything about the NEW MOON. So the NEW MOON is a completely made up meaning. Also, the NEW MOON is not apparent and not clearly visible like you claim. If you disagree then please witness the new moon for yourself and take a picture of it yourself and post it here. You will never be able to do it probably for your entire life.

As discussed above, the inviolable full-moons have to be consecutive as per 95.

OK Full moon is more visible than new moon. I agree that it seems more correct.
The main argument for "New moon theory", as nowadays practiced, was year 610.
However, 2203 can be interpreted as big precision is not required. 2 days before or after, no matter.

Also, the purpose of the harvest feast/hajj and the hunting restriction is in line with the timing. Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus. It was a pagan Roman fertility goddess birthday coinciding with the birth of the sun on the winter solstice. The pagan Arabs also had the same pagan concept and you can see its traces in what they falsely call "hajj" today. However, because of using the purely lunar calendar this pagan tradition doesn't fall near the winter solstice anymore.

Christmas was not a pagan Roman fertility goddess birthday. Please see the link i gave you.
Please read http//persia.edublogs.org/files/2009/03/article-christmas-is-an-old-tradtion-from-persia-a.pdf

I told you that jesus in not issa for me.
Now, if Hajj is feast then why we have 4 in quran and only 3 in ?Judaism?.
Where is the last one ?
My theory, and I told you that it is more an intuition than a theory, is that the forth feast was erased from memory of jews at the same time they erased the true issa from their memory.
It is why I think that the 4 th missing feast is related to the true Isaa.

I mentioned already that, for me, the true issa is now known as Yeshua Bin Nun.
Yeshua was ?the valet?, the ?spiritual son? and the successor of Moses.
He delivered the land of Firaoun and installed bani Israel in it.
Yeshua mean jesus, Bin is the feminine of Ben and Nun mean Nun (devoted women).
I think that Issa/Yeshua is the son of Meriem, the prophetess and sister of Moses and the daughter of imran, the father of Moses.

So I think that Christmas is the feast of the true issa, whose story inspired many mythologies of son of god and virgin (mithra who was worhipped by Romans and imported from Persia, Horus, Juspiter, Jesus of Nazareth, and others?)

Peace