question about dress code

unknownuser

"Women need to reduce from their gaze, this means, that they need to reduce what they look at, in other words, remove the concept of looking at inappropriate to look at things from their gaze"

So lower your gaze doesn't mean to low your eyes or head while moving in public places ?

Unfortunately...eh..no. The word God has used is 'Ghadd', it means 'Lower' and 'Restrain', but not the physical 'Low'. It means lower as in 'Lower the volume', 'Lower the price', get it? So in respect to 'Gaze', I'd go with the understanding that it means to lower the range of the things one looks at. As I don't think God would like it if people fall down the cliff just because they were obeying His law by literally lookking at the ground. Do you?

" This is further supported by 860, where God says, that we are supposed to use the best horses we can find to cast terror into the hearts of our enemy...."

That was one of the best explanation that I ever seen

Thanks

" TIME TO THINK, which parts of a woman specifically move when she strikes her feet on the ground? The answer is obvious, Bosom, Thighs and Buttocks. These parts are what God Himself expects that women would always cover from their Zeenat."

So a woman should not display bosom, thighs and buttocks...Only in public places or always ?

I'd go with public places, that 'Always' was my own word, the Quran says 'Not strike their feet as to make known what they hide from their Zeenat'. Since women may display their Zeenat in front of the people God mentioned , they have to hide it from the rest, that is the public. In front of the mentioned people, a woman does not have to observe any formal rules in matters of dressing, as for a woman's genitals, they maybe only uncovered in front of their husbands. As God doesn't include them in 'Zeenat' and uses the word 'Furuj' for them, which He in 235-6 and another place uses and says that they may only be uncovered in front of one's spouse, that is who they rightfully have a relationship with.

Peace

My answers in bold

unknownuser

Fallen Angel

Wa Salaams. Brilliant...that has to be the most comprehensive explanation of covering that I have ever read. bravo

Thank you for the encouragement.

truthsearcher

1.So practically what is the meaning of "lower their gaze " ?
2. Am I right There are "three kind of beauty"
a) Beauty which can be displayed in public
b) Beauty which can be displayed in front of family
c) Beauty only for husband
Correct me if I'm wrong

And thanks again for answer

unknownuser

1.So practically what is the meaning of "lower their gaze " ?
2. Am I right There are "three kind of beauty"
a) Beauty which can be displayed in public
b) Beauty which can be displayed in front of family
c) Beauty only for husband
Correct me if I'm wrong

And thanks again for answer

Practically reduction of gaze means not looking at inappropriate to look at things. It does not mean keeping your head down 24/7, it means casting down your looks if anything to inappropriate look at comes in front of your eyes or when you look at someone and lust enters your head.
It can also be extended to mean that one should not look at another's property and wealth out of jealousy*
You are right
a) Beauty that excludes Bosom Buttocks Thighs and everything else that is immodest to be revealed - Public Beauty - In my society, face, hands, hair, mid calves to feet, forearms and upper arms as long as shoulders are covered, necks
b) Beauty that is variable - It can be seen by those mentioned. The reason why I say 'Variable' is that it is a mere permission to not be so formal around these people. And what can be seen has been left open probably due to the fact that what a woman will see comfortable to uncover in front of her father is not necessary that what she would feel comfortable to uncover in front of her nephews. Simmilarly what a woman will see comfortable to uncover in front of little children is not necessary that what she will see comfortable to uncover in front of her male attendants/helpers no matter how old or homosexual or sexually disabled they be.
c) Full body beauty along with private parts - Something that can only be seen by their husbands. The reason why I mention private parts outside the fold of beauty has been explained in my last paragraph of my previous reply.

No need to thank me, thank God who I trust to be my guide. Don't follow me, but follow God. I'm just a mere human who hopes to be guided by the Lord God. I am not the one to correct, but it is He who corrected me, I pray that whatever I say is what He wants me to say and not what the misguided would say.

*This interpretation of not looking others' properties is coming from a Sunni site. I don't really agree with them but I kind of liked this interpretation so I included it.

unknownuser

Deleted by Request

Mazhar

My own translation O Children of Adam, We have sent down/bestowed/revealed unto you garments, so that you conceal your shame, and as a plumage, and the garment of Taqwa (God cautiousness) - That is the best/is better. This is one of the signs of God that they may remember

Good effort. However, care should be taken to associate the Verb with its Subject and not with others. Its subject is not "you" but Dress, and its Object is . The Verbal sentence is for dress the adjectival description-describing its pecularities.

"O You the posterity of Adam! We have indeed sent for you dress-clothing that covers-hides-conceals-secludes your bodies-contours, and additionally serves as integumentary/feathers like protection ."

is wrongly taken as "shame" or genitalia. Please see its recurrence where the brother is facing problem regarding burrial of the body of his brother.

Also read in conjunction 2547 and 7810 which will indicate the purpose of dress--it must blur-veil the contours of the body as happens when neight veils.

The bosoms of a woman-which are surfaced above the chest-ground are self evident even wearing dress. To make their contours and appearance blurred, a seperate unstiched sheet is asked to be placed on chests. The air coming in beween the chest clothes and extra sheet will blurr-veil the otherwise naturally emerged bossoms. Bossoms are the Zeenat. Zeenat refers only to such thing which has attraction for others.

unknownuser

Good effort. However, care should be taken to associate the Verb with its Subject and not with others. Its subject is not "you" but Dress, and its Object is . The Verbal sentence is for dress the adjectival description-describing its pecularities.

"O You the posterity of Adam! We have indeed sent for you dress-clothing that covers-hides-conceals-secludes your bodies-contours, and additionally serves as integumentary/feathers like protection ."

is wrongly taken as "shame" or genitalia. Please see its recurrence where the brother is facing problem regarding burrial of the body of his brother.

Also read in conjunction 2547 and 7810 which will indicate the purpose of dress--it must blur-veil the contours of the body as happens when neight veils.

The bosoms of a woman-which are surfaced above the chest-ground are self evident even wearing dress. To make their contours and appearance blurred, a seperate unstiched sheet is asked to be placed on chests. The air coming in beween the chest clothes and extra sheet will blurr-veil the otherwise naturally emerged bossoms. Bossoms are the Zeenat. Zeenat refers only to such thing which has attraction for others.

Ah, I see, thank you for the clarification of 726. As for 'Sauatikum', I read the brother incident, and classical Arabic dictionaries, it gives the impression that it refers to nakedness or body in general. And thanks for 2547 and 7810, I never realized that these two verses existed. Lemme re translate the verse

O Children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you raiment/clothing, it conceals your body, and it feathers (That can be used for beautification and protection)

truthsearcher

Wel... I have no more troubble understanding verse 726. Also I read carefully 860 and 3359 and I saw quranic logic. So I realized that Jilbab is talking about something that make a woman look respectable when she dress it. But what about "lower their gaze". If I say that it means you should low your head and your eyes while moving in public places - is there any argument from quran that doesn't approve it. Please don't tell me your Fatwa because if I would be interested in listening Fatwa I could ask a schoolar. I think that Quran ends when we start to check for hadiths or when we start to say our own comment (like you are saying) about Quran's verses and our comment doesn't have support from other Quran's verses but from own logic. So you can never say that your logic is better than a hadithist or scholar logic. And this create subjectivism while judging with the Law of God and in the Law of God there is no subjectivism.

It doesn't matter to me if you are quranist or hadithist when you give your own fatwa based on your own logic about one verse in quran. And if God says "lower their gaze" who can say that it doesn't mean to look down 24/7 ? If God say so we should respect it. According to "lower their gaze" we can have two results Those who think that "lower their gaze" means eyes down or physical meaning 24/7 and those who think that "lower their gaze" has a figuratively meaning (like you said for example "jealousy&quot. So if word "lower" in arabic (in this verse) is a word used for figuratively meaning which is the other word used for physical meaning of "low"? And if there are no other words how do you know that it is used for figuratively meaning - according to which verse (im not asking your own logic)?

And now I have few questions about (Quran 2431)

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss..

Some Woman have an attractive face. So if I say that they should not display their face in public but only in front of family - which is the verse that make me know that I'm wrong (not your own logic - I'm asking for argument from Quran) or which is arabic word that make me know that Im wrong ?

Peace

unknownuser

Peace,

I am not using my own logic, I'm using the Arabic. The word 'Ghadd' itself according to classical Arabic dictionaries means 'Lower' in a figurative sense. The same word has been used in 3119 where Luqman says to his son 'Wa ghzuz min soutik', it means 'Lower from your voice'. That according to me means reducing the highness of volume from one's voice, 'Control your voice '.

According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, there is a word 'Dana' from which come the words 'Danin' 'Daneen' etc. It has two meanings, 'To lower' literally and 'To near' literally. Another word is 'Anzalna' that has two meanings as well, literally 'Come down', to 'Descend', 'To lower down', and figuratively 'Bestow'.

Even according to Lisan al Arab, 'Ghadd al Basr' means 'Restraining the gaze'*

As for your second question; I already explained that God wants the following things covered

Whatever moves when a woman strikes her foot on the ground, proof 'And do not strike your feet as to make known what you hide from your beauty' 2431
Whatever is not OK to be apparent, proof 'And don't display their beauty except for what is apparent from it'. This is open to interpretation, due to the ever changing world

*This quote is taken from Islamqa.com, a Sunni website that issues Fatwas upon which many Sunnis rely, I haven't read Lisan al Arab myself, but I do know that these guys don't lie about references.

Mazhar

Ah, I see, thank you for the clarification of 726. As for 'Sauatikum', I read the brother incident, and classical Arabic dictionaries, it gives the impression that it refers to nakedness or body in general. And thanks for 2547 and 7810, I never realized that these two verses existed. Lemme re translate the verse

O Children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you raiment/clothing, it conceals your body, and it feathers (That can be used for beautification and protection)

is a collective noun and is conjunct with Waw. Therefore, it shows that the dress functions to veil the body as feathers. Hence beautification are not the meaning but inference. Today, we need to study what feathers do for a bird. Birds are warm blooded and we know the heat is something constantly in flow. Warm blooded birds and we human need to maintain a certain body temperature.

"Feathers perform a number of functions for a bird. Firstly, they provide insulation, this is very important in a warm blooded animal (body temperature of most birds is maintained at around 40C). It is believed by most scientists that this insulating effect was the primary force driving the evolution of feathers, i.e. ancestral birds developed feathers to keep themselves warm. Feathers also protect birds from UV light.

Secondly, feathers allow for flight. Scientists believe that flight evolved in birds as a result of their possessing basic feathers and that this added selective pressure to the evolution of feathers making them larger, stronger and refining their structure. Thirdly, feathers control what a bird looks like. A plucked chicken or pigeon looks very different to a fully feathered one. Feathers supply the bird with colours allowing for camouflage and secondary sexual characteristics and sexual display. Consider the tail feathers of a peacock."

The purpose of wearings is also given in 1681 where heat phenomenon is specifically mentioned. Let us read Qur'aan while remaining in 21st century and forget about inference of beautification, and literally take it as functioning like feathers. This will also show that dress code for women and men is different and is reflective as third sexual characteristic. Beard and bossoms being the secondary sexual characteristic. Thanks.

unknownuser

is a collective noun and is conjunct with Waw. Therefore, it shows that the dress functions to veil the body as feathers. Hence beautification are not the meaning but inference. Today, we need to study what feathers do for a bird. Birds are warm blooded and we know the heat is something constantly in flow. Warm blooded birds and we human need to maintain a certain body temperature.

"Feathers perform a number of functions for a bird. Firstly, they provide insulation, this is very important in a warm blooded animal (body temperature of most birds is maintained at around 40C). It is believed by most scientists that this insulating effect was the primary force driving the evolution of feathers, i.e. ancestral birds developed feathers to keep themselves warm. Feathers also protect birds from UV light.

Secondly, feathers allow for flight. Scientists believe that flight evolved in birds as a result of their possessing basic feathers and that this added selective pressure to the evolution of feathers making them larger, stronger and refining their structure. Thirdly, feathers control what a bird looks like. A plucked chicken or pigeon looks very different to a fully feathered one. Feathers supply the bird with colours allowing for camouflage and secondary sexual characteristics and sexual display. Consider the tail feathers of a peacock."

The purpose of wearings is also given in 1681 where heat phenomenon is specifically mentioned. Let us read Qur'aan while remaining in 21st century and forget about inference of beautification, and literally take it as functioning like feathers. This will also show that dress code for women and men is different and is reflective as third sexual characteristic. Beard and bossoms being the secondary sexual characteristic. Thanks.

Ok, Agreed )

Mazhar

Ok, Agreed )

I hope agreed on merit, not because of other reasos, if any.

unknownuser

I hope agreed on merit, not because of other reasos, if any.

No I mean it, what you said makes perfect sense, I have no reason to disagree with it

loxbox13

Hi !
First I don't know arabic language so I want to make e few questions about women dress code in Quran.
Yusuf Ali

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.. (Quran 2431)

1.Which "beauty" they should not display and which "beauty" they should display (how to define "beauty&quot
a) To their father, housband...?
b) To strangers
2.Whats arabic word for "beauty" and is this verse translated correctly by Yusuf Ali (or does this translate has "hadiths" influence?
3. Is face of woman part of her beauty and should a woman cover her face as part of beauty ?

And here is another verse
translated by Yusuf Ali

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (3359)

Translated by Rashad Khalifa

O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized (as righteous women) and avoid being insulted. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful. (3359)

Why Yusuf Ali translated "over their persons" and Rashad didn't ?
Which arabic word is translated "persons" and what does this exactly mean ?
Which arabic words are translated "lengthen" and "garments" ?
What is the meaning of "lengthen their garments"?
And the last
Is haram to go a woman in beach and if no what should be the "dress code" for a woman in beach?

Peace

ZINAT has nothing to do with beauty, but it is GOODS and WEALTH
beauty is called HUSN
these verses aren't talking about any dress code, it is talking about been secretive about ones wealth and possessions

unknownuser

ZINAT has nothing to do with beauty, but it is GOODS and WEALTH
beauty is called HUSN
these verses aren't talking about any dress code, it is talking about been secretive about ones wealth and possessions

I agree with you, Zeenat does mean adornment, however, when I was interpreting this verse while taking Zeenat as adornment alone, I had a question for which I was not able to find an answer for

In the list of exceptions of the people by whom the Zeenat can be seen; What do 'Attendants/helpers without desire', and 'Children who have no knowledge of a woman's shame/privacy/sexuality/private parts' have anything to do with wealth?

If you are able to answer the above question, then I might reconsider my interpretation.

Peace

loxbox13

I agree with you, Zeenat does mean adornment, however, when I was interpreting this verse while taking Zeenat as adornment alone, I had a question for which I was not able to find an answer for

In the list of exceptions of the people by whom the Zeenat can be seen; What do 'Attendants/helpers without desire', and 'Children who have no knowledge of a woman's shame/privacy/sexuality/private parts' have anything to do with wealth?

If you are able to answer the above question, then I might reconsider my interpretation.

Peace

if you take any verse where the word ZEENATAN is mentioned, it's always about wealth, goods, , wealth and goods are obvious, possessions of value, like money, connection etc... the day of zeenat , is the day where everybody is celebrating, like a holiday , where everyone dress nice, and be in good mood
now, KHUMUR , aren't veils over the head, but KHUMUR means hiding/conceiling, and JUYUB, is pluriel of JEYB, wich means, pocket, box, chest , case, coffre etc...

it's talking about private possessions in general , and there are no cloths mentioned here

the main point in these verses , is , he is not talking about femeles only, but male and femeles, and when talking about the two genders, the quran speak to them in a femele style, opposed to al other languages, in the quran, the femele group when mixte with the male group, they are addressed as a femele group
in this verse, he said firs say to the MOUMININ .. and to the MOUMINATE... And they shall conceal their goods... he's talking about, the mouminine, and mouminate, re-read the verse from the begining

Mazhar

if you take any verse where the word ZEENATAN is mentioned, it's always about wealth, goods, , wealth and goods are obvious, possessions of value, like money, connection etc...

unknownuser

if you take any verse where the word ZEENATAN is mentioned, it's always about wealth, goods, , wealth and goods are obvious, possessions of value, like money, connection etc... the day of zeenat , is the day where everybody is celebrating, like a holiday , where everyone dress nice, and be in good mood
now, KHUMUR , aren't veils over the head, but KHUMUR means hiding/conceiling, and JUYUB, is pluriel of JEYB, wich means, pocket, box, chest , case, coffre etc...

it's talking about private possessions in general , and there are no cloths mentioned here

the main point in these verses , is , he is not talking about femeles only, but male and femeles, and when talking about the two genders, the quran speak to them in a femele style, opposed to al other languages, in the quran, the femele group when mixte with the male group, they are addressed as a femele group
in this verse, he said firs say to the MOUMININ .. and to the MOUMINATE... And they shall conceal their goods... he's talking about, the mouminine, and mouminate, re-read the verse from the begining

Peace,

Ok, we'll take Zeenat to refer to wealth and goods. But please give me a logical and reasonable answer to the question I asked you. That is

In the list of exceptions of the people by whom the Zeenat can be seen; What do 'Attendants/helpers without desire', and 'Children who have no knowledge of a woman's shame/privacy/sexuality/private parts' have anything to do with wealth?

Khumur orginates from the root of 'Khmr', and 'Khmr' refers to a 'Covering'. However, to understand the Quran, I think we should first see how the people to whom the Quran was directly being revealed to understood it, once we are done with that, only then we can interpret according to our understanding/era. Cause if keep on using modern Arabic, then God knows what type of interpretations we'll come to. According to classical Arabic dictionaries, Khimar specifically referred to a woman's headscarf/scarf/head veil.
Same case with Jayb. In modern Arabic it means 'Pocket', but pockets didn't come into existence till a very long time, according to classical Arabic dictionaries, it refers to a garment's neckline, or an opening in a garment. The same word appears in 2832, where God orders Moses to put his hand in his 'Jayb', and it only makes sense to refer to his sleeve opening; underarm. This is further strengthened by the Biblical account of his story. So in 2431, it refers to a woman's shirt's neckline. If you insist that Jayb refers to treasure chests/boxes, then don't you think the Arabs would at least know not to expose their treasures? I mean, they weren't that stupid, were they?
Can you please explain to me, with references your understanding of God addressing men and women as females? Your the first person who is saying that. By reading 2430-31, it clearly shows that God is giving separate orders to Muminin and Muminat, as two different types of Momins, that is, male momins and female momins. According to classical Arabic dictionaries, Muminin refers to male believers while Muminat to female believers. In fact, it seems like your contradicting yourself, at one moment you say that Mominat compromises of both males and females, and the next moment you say that first Momins were being addressed and then Mominats are being addressed.

First God says to say to the Mominin that

A. They restrain their gaze
B. They guard their genitals

As that will be purer for them, and indeed Allah is knowledgeable with all that they do

In the next verse He says to say to the Mominat

A. They restrain their gaze
B. They guard their genitals
C. They conceal their Zeenat except for what is/can be apparent
D. They put forth their Khumur over their Juyub
E. They may display their Zeenat to the list of people
F. They don't strike their feet as to make known what they hide of their Zeenat

If God addresses men and female both when He talks in a female style, then why is he separately ordering Mominin to restrain their gaze and guard their genitals as well. Why didn't He just say 'Say to the Mominat' without making mention of 'Mominin', as that would have included men and women both? Get my point?

howiesoares

this is really helpful. Thank you.

hawk99

My understanding of the dress code is based on the universally of Islam,
and that modesty is the goal.

Springing from that point of view, It is my interptretation of Quran that we need not dress as arabs. The the universalality of Islam says the eskimo does not have to dress like a modest arab but a modest eskimo, an american does not have to dress like a modest pakistani but a modest american

Now most of us recognize what modesty looks like

for a woman to cover herself from my peering eyes she would have to cover her thighs
and where her thighs meet, also her buttocks, her breasts, and an enticing walk
I never care about hair! why cover the hair makes no sense to me.
the face? I don't think so. but most importantly she must lower her gaze! i think that is why it is mentioned first because the eyes tell me what she is thinking so don't stare at the Hawk the wrong way, I may get the wrong idea.
Peace O0

And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests,

We thus made this (Quran) elucidated (clear) in your tongue, in order to deliver good news to the righteous, and to warn with it the opponents