Pork and it's by-products or just the meat?
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Hello.
I believe only the meat of pigs is forbidden. My reasoning is the following.There are 4 verses to do with eating pig. Arabic does not have a word "pork" to my knowledge, at least in the Qur'an, it always says "The X of Pigs". I say X because that is the topic at hand, whether it says meat or all of it.
First i'll post the verses. I'm using Rashad Khalifa translation and transliterations from http//www.islamawakened.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9&Itemid=10. The verses aren't complete because they're very long.
He only prohibits for you the eating of animals that die of themselves (without human interference), blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD.
Innama harrama AAalaykumu almaytata waalddama walahma alkhinzeeri wama ohilla bihi lighayri Allahi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadin fala ithma AAalayhi inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemunProhibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD.
Hurrimat AAalaykumu almaytatu waalddamu walahmu alkhinzeeri wama ohilla lighayri Allahi bihiSay, "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except (1) carrion, (2) running blood, (3) the meat of pigs, for it is contaminated, and (4) the meat of animals blasphemously dedicated to other than GOD.
Qul la ajidu feema oohiya ilayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhu illa an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahi bihHe only prohibits for you dead animals, blood, the meat of pigs, and food which is dedicated to other than GOD.
Innama harrama AAalaykumu almaytata waalddama walahma alkhinzeeri wama ohilla lighayri Allahi bihiThe specific word in question which you've probably gathered from the above is "Lahma"
In all of the four instances the Arabic is.
walahma alkhinzeeri X 3
aw lahma khinzeerin X 1
The only different between these 2 variants is one is "and the lahma of pigs" and the other is "or the meat of pigs", RK substitutes "or" with bracketed numbers.This link contains 41 translations of the Qur'an. http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/5/3/default.htm The translations varies greatly between flesh and meat. Meat and flesh are actually the same thing, meat is flesh in the context of food. So what we have gathered from the above is that the Arabic doesn't say "Do Not eat pigs" It specifically says "do not eat the meat of pigs". And you have to always remember that this is the Qur'an and this is God, God says precisely what he means to say, if the Qur'an meant all of the pig entirely, it would say that, but it doesn't.
But what is meat? Meat is the muscle and fat, it is not the skin, the organs, or the bones.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meat
Meat is animal flesh that is eaten as food.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flesh
flesh is the colloquial term for biological tissue which consists of skeletal muscles and fat as opposed to bones, viscera (organs) and integuments (skin, other)
Therefore you can eat anything made with pork products that don't come from the meat or fat, and you can use any products made from pig, such as bristle hair brushes, which are made with pigs hair.You ask about Gelatin. Well you're in luck.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatin
Gelatin is a mixture of peptides and proteins produced by partial hydrolysis of collagen extracted from the skin, boiled crushed bones, connective tissues, organs and some intestines of animals such as domesticated cattle, chicken, horses hooves, and pigs.
It's not made from muscle and fat, it's made from the other parts, which the Qur'an doesn't forbid, so you can consume things with gelatin in.Another logical reason is, if all pig products were forbidden then the Qur'an would not specify "Lahma" if all pig products were forbidden, even if we didn't know the meaning of "lahma", it still signifies that only a specific part is forbidden and not all things from a pig, otherwise it would just say "Do not eat pig" instead of "do not eat lahma of pig".
Well that's my argument, i completely disagree with Muslims who say every single thing from a pig is forbidden, it doesn't make any sense given that a quick analysis of the Qur'an clearly shows it only applies to meat. I hope this helped.
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Peace DaresBears.
I pretty much agree, except the "fat" bit . GOD does not say "meat and fat of pigs". The word of GOD is measured, precise. GOD says exactly what HE means.
Peace.
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Peace DaresBears.
I pretty much agree, except the "fat" bit . GOD does not say "meat and fat of pigs". The word of GOD is measured, precise. GOD says exactly what HE means.
Peace.
Fat is meat Good Logic. Meat is Muscle+Fat of an animal. It's a common misconception that meat is only the muscle.
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DaresBears Thank you for that breakdown, and I agree regarding the fat and muscle. As far as I know, fat and muscle are generally connected to one another. I don't think that I have ever eaten a pork chop (in my days of ignorance) that didn't have some fat attached to it.
Of course, I will still do my best to partake of what is halal, Insha'Allah. It's just nice to be relieved of the constant worry of "Is there pork derivitive in it?"
With Peace,
Amina
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Peace DaresBears.
There is a verse where GOD mentioned what was made unlawful to the children of Israel. "Shuhumahuma" ie Fat. Except what was mixed with the bones or meat of the shoulder...
"Lahm= Meat" " Shahm= Fat"
The point I was trying to make if there was any medecine or product made of " Fat of pork" it may be fine.. They are areas where the fat is separate and not mixed with any meat.
Of course that is my understanding. Double check all information using Koran.
Peace.
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Peace DaresBears.
There is a verse where GOD mentioned what was made unlawful to the children of Israel. "Shuhumahuma" ie Fat. Except what was mixed with the bones or meat of the shoulder...
"Lahm= Meat" " Shahm= Fat"
The point I was trying to make if there was any medecine or product made of " Fat of pork" it may be fine.. They are areas where the fat is separate and not mixed with any meat.
Of course that is my understanding. Double check all information using Koran.
Peace.
In that respect it may mean just muscle meat and I'll have to look into it further, but the English word meat encompasses the fat. Maybe it should be translated as Muscle of pig.
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Wa Salaams...
I know the Qu'ran clearly states that pork is forbidden for us to eat except for in dire need. Like many other Muslims, I spend time in the store scanning labels for possible pork by products, namely gelatin. Does the prohibition extend to such, especially when the label doesn't specifically say pork gelatin? I have actually made phonecalls to companies asking if the gelatin they use is pork or beef based and they often don't know.
And then I have to bring up the popular hadith about "If one doesn't know the source, just say bismillah and eat it." I am always amazed at Muslims who will use that hadith to excuse their buying non-halal meat from regular grocery stores because the meat at the halal butcher shops is more expensive.
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and look at the bones how we fix it and cover it with LAHMAN...
- 14 -
.. and we clothed the bones LAHMAN...
according to these ayahs, All what is above, or over bones is called LAHMA
- 36 -
Meat we eat is called el BUDNA, almost same word like frensh VIANDE
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- 59 -
and look at the bones how we fix it and cover it with LAHMAN...
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.. and we clothed the bones LAHMAN...
according to these ayahs, All what is above, or over bones is called LAHMA
- 36 -
Meat we eat is called el BUDNA, almost same word like frensh VIANDE
Almost every translation translates Budna as Cattle/Camels or both.
http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/22/36/default.htm
And as for the sacrifice of cattle
And (as for) the camels
And the camels and cows
And the camels and cattle
The Qur'anic Arabic corpus also says the same
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=22&verse=36#(22361)At best some have translated it as plump animals, fleshy animals, but I'm having trouble believing it just means meat you eat.
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What about the whole halal part?
Does gelatin and broth have to be halal?
Many soups consist of chicken broth, does the broth have to be halal? same goes with beef gelatin.and if it is okay to eat pork gelatin does the pig have to be butchered the halal way? b/c this does not exist.. many muslims refuse to work with pig. There's no such thing as halal pork.
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What about the whole halal part?
Does gelatin and broth have to be halal?
Many soups consist of chicken broth, does the broth have to be halal? same goes with beef gelatin.and if it is okay to eat pork gelatin does the pig have to be butchered the halal way? b/c this does not exist.. many muslims refuse to work with pig. There's no such thing as halal pork.
This is the hadith I have often seen used to get past the "halal" issue
A group of people said to the Nabi (Sallallahu alayhi wa Sallam), "Some people brought us meat and we do not know whether or not they have mentioned Allah?s name on slaughtering the animal." He (Sallallahu alayhi wa Sallam) said, "Mention the Name of Allah over it and then eat it." Those people had embraced Al-Islam recently."
Not saying it is right...but I hear it often. When I question it, I get the reply "Well, it COULD have been slaughtered in the halal way...we weren't there so we don't know. Just say Bismillah and eat it."
Excuses abound through hadith....
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Peace,
basically select foods from the lawful categories and mention God's name before eating.
For me this religion is easy to follow and has a path that leads sound mind and happiness
all praise to the lord and sustainer of all thingsWhy should you not eat from that upon which GOD's name has been mentioned? He has detailed for you what is prohibited for you, unless you are forced. Indeed, many people mislead others with their personal opinions, without knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.
You shall avoid obvious sins, as well as the hidden ones. Those who have earned sins will surely pay for their transgressions.
Do not eat from that upon which the name of GOD has not been mentioned, for it is an abomination. The devils inspire their allies to argue with you; if you obey them, you will be idol worshipers.
*6121 Dietary prohibitions instituted by other than God represent idolatry.
Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you. Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.
Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs,* and animals dedicated to other than GOD. (Animals that die of themselves include those) strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height, gored, attacked by a wild animal?unless you save your animal before it dies?and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning (the eradication of) your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead. Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful
Peace
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What about the whole halal part?
Does gelatin and broth have to be halal?
Many soups consist of chicken broth, does the broth have to be halal? same goes with beef gelatin.and if it is okay to eat pork gelatin does the pig have to be butchered the halal way? b/c this does not exist.. many muslims refuse to work with pig. There's no such thing as halal pork.
Salam Chaste Maid
I have written this before in some other thread, but it is a good story for opening the mind to what is halal and what is not.
I am a sailor, and one story you hear as one is that if you get lost on the ocean all you have to do is to follow the dead sheep, they will lead you to Mecca.........
Before the halal butchers started living overseas muslim countries used to import live animals by the numbers. They were shipped from the big producing countries, the biggest being New Zeeland and Australia. The exporters wanted of course to make profit so they would fill their ships to the brink, much like the slave ships from Africa to America back in the day.......Horrible conditions for the animals and many of the sheep would perish along the way. The sailors would dispose of the carcasses by throwing them overboard. Dead bodies float so there would be a trail of dead sheep towards any given muslim country.....
An animal that has suffered in horrible conditions before slaughtered according to islamic rituals........................................Halal meat?
An animal that has lived a good and wholesome life slaughtered according to rules set down for humane treatment..........Haram meat?To me, the chicken broth is halal if it comes from a healthy chicken that has not been pedigreed to the point it is so large its legs cannot hold the weight of the body.
To me, any meat is haram where the animal has suffered, no matter if it has been slaughtered according to islamic rituals or not.When it comes to gelatin.......well most of the products that contain gelatin also contain many other things that are haram (preservatives, modified starch, E-chemicals etc). So on the haram scale gelatin is not even in the top one hundred.
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Salam Chaste Maid
I have written this before in some other thread, but it is a good story for opening the mind to what is halal and what is not.
I am a sailor, and one story you hear as one is that if you get lost on the ocean all you have to do is to follow the dead sheep, they will lead you to Mecca.........
Before the halal butchers started living overseas muslim countries used to import live animals by the numbers. They were shipped from the big producing countries, the biggest being New Zeeland and Australia. The exporters wanted of course to make profit so they would fill their ships to the brink, much like the slave ships from Africa to America back in the day.......Horrible conditions for the animals and many of the sheep would perish along the way. The sailors would dispose of the carcasses by throwing them overboard. Dead bodies float so there would be a trail of dead sheep towards any given muslim country.....
An animal that has suffered in horrible conditions before slaughtered according to islamic rituals........................................Halal meat?
An animal that has lived a good and wholesome life slaughtered according to rules set down for humane treatment..........Haram meat?To me, the chicken broth is halal if it comes from a healthy chicken that has not been pedigreed to the point it is so large its legs cannot hold the weight of the body.
To me, any meat is haram where the animal has suffered, no matter if it has been slaughtered according to islamic rituals or not.When it comes to gelatin.......well most of the products that contain gelatin also contain many other things that are haram (preservatives, modified starch, E-chemicals etc). So on the haram scale gelatin is not even in the top one hundred.
Emil I don't see your Quran quotes, where do you get your infomation?
Peace
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Peace all.
Let us see what GOD says
Say, "I do not find in what was revealed to me anything prohibited for any eater unless it is (1) Dead (animals), (2) running blood, (3) the meat of pigs, for it is unclean, and (4) meat blasphemously dedicated to other than God." If one is forced to eat these without being malicious or deliberate, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
GOD tells us that HE is displeased with those who prohibit any food that HE has made lawful to us
You shall not utter lies with your own tongues stating "This is lawful, and this is unlawful," to fabricate lies and attribute them to God. Surely, those who fabricate lies and attribute them to God will never succeed.
Check what your Lord says and enjoy your food.
Peace. -
Emil I don't see your Quran quotes, where do you get your infomation?
Peace
Salam hawkninetynine
treat the animal with the respect because in the eyes of Allah they are just as important as you and I
638
And there is not a creature on the earth, nor a bird that flies with its wings, except they belong to nations like you belong. We did not leave anything out of the record; then to their Lord they will be gathered.Do not hurt yourself
2195
And spend in the cause of God, but do not throw your resources to disaster. And do good, for God loves those who do good.Eat clean food
2168
O people, eat from what is on the earth as good and lawful, and do not follow in the footsteps of the devil. He is to you a clear enemy.Of course it comes down a what you define as good food, respect for animals and what is hurting you. I do not particularly see chemicals as good food, I do not trust a food product that can stay in the cupboard for months without going bad. I do not see deliberately added chemicals to food as something good for my health and I do not see breeding of animals the way we do today as respect to Allah?s creation
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Peace Emil
Has nothing to do with Lawful and unlawful foods.
accept what our lord says regarding lawful foods
God did not say "oh you believe do not eat chemicals"
if that is your personal choice, fine but personal choices have no place in religious discussions.from Quran Kareem is not refering to lawful and unlawful food. Here is the context
You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque (Masjid), unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.
During the Sacred Months, aggression may be met by an equivalent response. If they attack you, you may retaliate by inflicting an equitable retribution. You shall observe GOD and know that GOD is with the righteous.
You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.
sorry, no mention of clean food in
O people, eat from what is on the earth as good and lawful, and do not follow in the footsteps of the devil. He is to you a clear enemy.Allah has blessed the believers with an easy path to follow don't complicate it.
Peace
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Peace be with you as well.
Please note that there is a difference between Meat and fat.
It is somewhat clear in that the Quran uses the word Lahm or meat. There is another word for fat, which is sha7m.
Notice that the Prohibition on the Jews in 6146 is the fat of some animals except in certain parts of their bodies. However, the MEAT of the same animals is not prohibited. Thus we could conclude upon this that the fat of pigs (lard), is not prohibited. Other parts including bones might not be prohibited as well, since 1) they are not meat, and 2) at least for human anatomy we know that God created the bones and then encased the bones with meat in 2314. This would simply mean, bones are not the same as meat.
Moreover, we are not prohibited from using pigs/pig products for other things (e.g cosmetics, medicine etc).Now about Gelatin. Gelatin might be technically meat, since it is made of protein (i.e meat). well to be technical it is made from "collagen, the soft protein that connects our skin, bones, muscles, tendons."..... I am not really 100% sure, but for now, i guess it would be prohibited/haram, since skin might be considered as meat.... God knows better.
I suggest you read the articles on http//quransmessage.com/articles/food%20FM3.htm
Especially Food Permissibility and Prohibitions
"http//quransmessage.com/articles/food%20restrictions%20FM3.htm -
Has nothing to do with Lawful and unlawful foods.
No sir, but it has to do with our relationship with animals and that we should regard all living creatures as God's creation. Therefore we should not pedigree animals to the point where they cease to be animals. We should not see livestock as a "product", they too demand respect as any of God's creature. We should not treat them the way we do. Whenever humans are torturing humans in slave ships or concentration camps we all react ...."oh, what horrible people" we say......but when an animals are treated the same only a handful react, the rest turn a blind eye or even worse, shrug their shoulders.
God did not say "oh you believe do not eat chemicals" from Quran Kareem is not refering to lawful and unlawful food. Here is the context
Yeah that is true. In my native tongue Quran 2195 can be paraphrased as "do not physically harm yourself" so we got bit of a translation problem here....
Some of the chemicals found in food nowadays can hardly be recognised as healthy, that you have to agree with.sorry, no mention of clean food in
O people, eat from what is on the earth as good and lawful, and do not follow in the footsteps of the devil. He is to you a clear enemy.So what does "good" imply? Tasty?
Allah has blessed the believers with an easy path to follow don't complicate it.
No, I guess you are right. Let's just focus on the ritual of halal slaughter and if gelatin is forbidden or not. Let's just ignore the belgian blues and American chicken farms and the dying oceans. It is better for our salvation to make sure the chicken is slaughtered facing Mecca, not that it grows twice as fast and gets twice as big as God intended a chicken to ever be.
Peace
Emil