Are we going the wrong way ?
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It is all written already there, that's why I sent you the link )
I'm sorry but I don't have much time to read all of this. So write here "contradict verses" one by one and we'll discuss
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peace truthsearcher, all,
Your questions/thinking is quite a common reaction, i.e. it is thought about and often asked by others.
Since I have been a forum member for almost 10 years and have been studying Quran for roughly the same time, I will share my thoughts.
Firstly, please bear in mind verse 37. This seems to be an under appreciated verse. It's message is very powerful. Please ponder upon it.
Secondly, please do not compare like with unlike. For example, you list quite a number of different views, but be careful you do not confuse the wheat with the chaff. If you ask yourself how many of those views actually have a detailed article behind them? You will suddenly find the number of variant views reducing dramatically.
Now, once the list of variance is reduced, ponder upon what the differences would be in a practical manner. Usually, the variance, whilst still there, is again reduced.And lastly, from my studies of Quran, it does seem it placed an emphasis on unity on the core beliefs/laws. If a society has these, how relevant are the rest? If your next door neighbour is law-abiding and righteous but believes one must do cartwheels and handstands in their timed salat - how much does that matter? What if they are law-abiding and righteous but believe their cat is their God - how much does that matter?
Please ponder.
Thanks.
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peace truthsearcher, all,
Your questions/thinking is quite a common reaction, i.e. it is thought about and often asked by others.
Since I have been a forum member for almost 10 years and have been studying Quran for roughly the same time, I will share my thoughts.
Firstly, please bear in mind verse 37. This seems to be an under appreciated verse. It's message is very powerful. Please ponder upon it.
Secondly, please do not compare like with unlike. For example, you list quite a number of different views, but be careful you do not confuse the wheat with the chaff. If you ask yourself how many of those views actually have a detailed article behind them? You will suddenly find the number of variant views reducing dramatically.
Now, once the list of variance is reduced, ponder upon what the differences would be in a practical manner. Usually, the variance, whilst still there, is again reduced.And lastly, from my studies of Quran, it does seem it placed an emphasis on unity on the core beliefs/laws. If a society has these, how relevant are the rest? If your next door neighbour is law-abiding and righteous but believes one must do cartwheels and handstands in their timed salat - how much does that matter? What if they are law-abiding and righteous but believe their cat is their God - how much does that matter?
Please ponder.
Thanks.
Wakas,
I liked the reference that you gave in 37 and it brought to mind something else, if I may add
2255
God, there is no god except He, the Living, the Sustainer. No
slumber or sleep overtakes Him; to Him belongs all that is in
the heavens and the earth. Who will intercede with Him except
with His permission? He knows their present and their future,
and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He
wishes. His Throne encompasses all of the heavens and the earth
and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the
GreatOnly when Allah (swt) is ready is anything revealed to us (we are allowed to understand).
And then as I re-read 37, it really hit home for me.
He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which
there are firm revelations; they are the essence of the Book;
and others which are similar. As for those who have a disease in
their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to
confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know
its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in
knowledge; they say ?We believe in it, all is from our Lord.? And
none will remember except those who possess intelligence.All this nit picking over how often should we pray, should we bow three times or four, how many days are we really supposed to fast? I can't speak for anyone else, but reading that ayat (did I use the right term there?) made me realize just how shallow my worship has become.
You are right...it is a very powerful verse.
With Peace,
Amina
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Wakas,
I liked the reference that you gave in 37 and it brought to mind something else, if I may add
2255
God, there is no god except He, the Living, the Sustainer. No
slumber or sleep overtakes Him; to Him belongs all that is in
the heavens and the earth. Who will intercede with Him except
with His permission? He knows their present and their future,
and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He
wishes. His Throne encompasses all of the heavens and the earth
and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the
GreatOnly when Allah (swt) is ready is anything revealed to us (we are allowed to understand).
And then as I re-read 37, it really hit home for me.
He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which
there are firm revelations; they are the essence of the Book;
and others which are similar. As for those who have a disease in
their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to
confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know
its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in
knowledge; they say ?We believe in it, all is from our Lord.? And
none will remember except those who possess intelligence.All this nit picking over how often should we pray, should we bow three times or four, how many days are we really supposed to fast? I can't speak for anyone else, but reading that ayat (did I use the right term there?) made me realize just how shallow my worship has become.
You are right...it is a very powerful verse.
With Peace,
Amina
Yes but historically this is how Muhammad and his followers prayed. The Sunnis are traditionalists. They base everything off tradition and they want Islam to remain the same today as it was hundreds of years ago.
The prophet himself prayed like this and so did his followers. This is not a matter of revelation or divine truth this is historical fact.
So if the prophet himself prayed like this, how can you call it shallow worship?
Are we all so arrogant to believe that we know the Qur'an better than the people it was first revealed to and who followed the prophet himself?
That somehow we have unlocked some truth that others have ignored? The entire exercise is folly because when it comes to religion, truth is always subjective. If every group of Muslims that claimed another group of Muslims weren't "real Muslims" or weren't "true Muslims" then not a single Muslim would exist on this planet.
You can't all be right but you can all be wrong. To cling to a religious belief is to accept the idea that your interpretation of reality and your idea of truth is correct and all others are wrong or mistaken.
I've come to the point in studying scripture and history that no one religion or sect is right and not a single scripture is divine.
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I'm sorry if my reply was taken the wrong way. I meant that constantly being worried about the physical things has caused me to ignore the most important aspect of worship. Anyone can bow, prostrate, and recite, but do the words have meaning? Is the prayer heartfelt? If not, then why are we doing it?
That is what I meant by shallow.
With Peace,
Amina
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I'm sorry if my reply was taken the wrong way. I meant that constantly being worried about the physical things has caused me to ignore the most important aspect of worship. Anyone can bow, prostrate, and recite, but do the words have meaning? Is the prayer heartfelt? If not, then why are we doing it?
That is what I meant by shallow.
With Peace,
Amina
Oh I see. My point still remains about truth though.
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Oh I see. My point still remains about truth though.
I think I am starting to realize that not everyone here has the same goal...maybe I need to sit back and lurk for a while to get feel for everyone...
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Faithful-Jinn You assert something something as "historical fact" like this is indisputable, but I gotta ask how could you possibly be certain that you actually know how Muhammed prayed?
More generally, I think you'd have a hard time finding Quranic evidence that the outer form of prayer matters beyond the instructions in the Book. -
Faithful-Jinn You assert something something as "historical fact" like this is indisputable, but I gotta ask how could you possibly be certain that you actually know how Muhammed prayed?
Forgive me perhaps I was hasty. I mean historical evidence would suggest it was highly likely and probable that Muhammad prayed that way.
Do you think Muhammad did the ritual prayer with raka and bowing and prostration?
More generally, I think you'd have a hard time finding Quranic evidence that the outer form of prayer matters beyond the instructions in the Book.
Well I'd have a hard time finding evidence that the Qur'an is from God and Muhammad is His messenger outside of the book too.
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peace truthsearcher, all,
Your questions/thinking is quite a common reaction, i.e. it is thought about and often asked by others.
Since I have been a forum member for almost 10 years and have been studying Quran for roughly the same time, I will share my thoughts.
Firstly, please bear in mind verse 37. This seems to be an under appreciated verse. It's message is very powerful. Please ponder upon it.
Secondly, please do not compare like with unlike. For example, you list quite a number of different views, but be careful you do not confuse the wheat with the chaff. If you ask yourself how many of those views actually have a detailed article behind them? You will suddenly find the number of variant views reducing dramatically.
Now, once the list of variance is reduced, ponder upon what the differences would be in a practical manner. Usually, the variance, whilst still there, is again reduced.And lastly, from my studies of Quran, it does seem it placed an emphasis on unity on the core beliefs/laws. If a society has these, how relevant are the rest? If your next door neighbour is law-abiding and righteous but believes one must do cartwheels and handstands in their timed salat - how much does that matter? What if they are law-abiding and righteous but believe their cat is their God - how much does that matter?
Please ponder.
Thanks.
Dear Wakas
Yes I know 37 and I think it is talking about "mysterious things" mentioned in Quran. For example we still don't know what is spirit, we don't have a clear concept about jinns (their nature, life), we don't know meaning of 675, we don't know meaning of seven heavens (we just can make a hypothesis about it) and there are many other "not easy understanding" verses. Do you think that God would make us hard to understand BASIC RULES of islam like marriage or salat? This doesn't make sense to me. Do you think that Muhamed didn't know how to pray because Qurans doesn't have a clear concept about it ? Or do you think that Muhamed didn't know if 100 lashes is punishment for adultery or fornication or public sex or whatever ? We are talking here about BASIC RULES that determine our life and these rules are supposed to be easy to understand. As a Quranist how would you describe your "religion" to an atheist ? "Yes there are people who pray 5,4,3,2 times a day and it is on your will to choice it". I think that Quranists are making Islam look ridiculous in front of nonbelievers.
And as for the second...Moderators I think it could be your fault for all of this . I am not saying that you should deny free think and free write. But moderators - you may have underestimated the fact that in this forum there are many people who want just to confuse the others. I think the solution is not deleting the others posts, just at the end of every topic write "topics conclusion " based on your and the others view.
Peace to all
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w/salaam,
I disagree with you on your 1st paragraph.
I, in part, agree with you on the 2nd paragraph. The forum rule 2 was changed a while back resulting in more leeway when people discuss Quran. I disagreed with the rule change but I am only an admin/moderator not the forum owner. Since I have been a member of the forum for a long time, I do think standards have declined over the years but whether that is soley down to the rule change, I doubt it, but certainly it has a part to play.
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w/salaam,
I disagree with you on your 1st paragraph.
I, in part, agree with you on the 2nd paragraph. The forum rule 2 was changed a while back resulting in more leeway when people discuss Quran. I disagreed with the rule change but I am only an admin/moderator not the forum owner. Since I have been a member of the forum for a long time, I do think standards have declined over the years but whether that is soley down to the rule change, I doubt it, but certainly it has a part to play.
Do you think that God (37) is talking about BASIC RULES ? If BASIC RULES (marriage, salat etc) are hard to understand then what is easy to understand ?
a) IF BASIC RULES = EASY TO UNDERSTAND then problem is within us or... I don't know
b) IF BASIC RULES = HARD TO UNDERSTAND then the same was for Muhamed. So Hadiths are word of God. But it cant be true because God says clearly QURAN ALONEWhen you said you disagree with 1st paragraph can you tell me exactly why do you disagree ? Which point ?
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peace truthsearcher, all,
.Firstly, please bear in mind verse 37. This seems to be an under appreciated verse. It's message is very powerful. Please ponder upon it.
Secondly, please do not compare like with unlike. For example, you list quite a number of different views, but be careful you do not confuse the wheat with the chaff. If you ask yourself how many of those views actually have a detailed article behind them? You will suddenly find the number of variant views reducing dramatically.
Now, once the list of variance is reduced, ponder upon what the differences would be in a practical manner. Usually, the variance, whilst still there, is again reduced.Please ponder.
Thanks.
Salaam Wakas
I am glad you mentioned 37 I too feel that this is the basis of our understanding the Qur'an, and how we should evaluate interpretations of other; especially those who mainly seek discord and massage the text to produce an interpretation that suits their purpose.
However in your second point you remind me of some who claim that only Muslim scholars should be trusted with the interpretation of the Qur?an and who reject the views of all others. If you want to rely on 3;7 then there is no need to hold those as more reliable who write long articles. Also not everyone likes to write article as an authority, as there is always the risk of unintentionally misleading others.
The Qur?an warns us about those who with their eloquence impress many yet they are hypocrites and their aim is to cause discord. Take as an example the discussion of Ramadan on this forum where many, who profess knowledge, have been misleading others by their twisted take on Ramadan.
Easy to understand ayats elucidates the implication of the lunar month and only those who witness, it clarifies the meaning of days to be counted within this month for fasting. It also specifies when to eat and drink and when to stop and when having sex is allowed yet those in whose heart is a disease would follow that of it which is unspecific.
In addition there are those in this forum who want everyone to stop mentioning Muhammad and instead take them as the authority. Perhaps this kind of heedless speculation is what caused Bukhari and Muslim to dig out hadiths to stop people from blowing their own trumpets.Peace
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Peace farida.
A forum is for all users to discuss/argue/express their view/opinion... There will inevitably be disagreements.
Now it is up to every user to argue their case using evidence/scripture/facts... to support their point of view.
I disagree with your view that some are misleading others. If that is the case ,why are you not misleading others also?
It is up to every individual to check the information and make their own decision.
Also remember it is GOD who guides those who choose to be guided.
Good debating to all.
Peace. -
Peace farida.
A forum is for all users to discuss/argue/express their view/opinion... There will inevitably be disagreements.
Now it is up to every user to argue their case using evidence/scripture/facts... to support their point of view.
I disagree with your view that some are misleading others. If that is the case ,why are you not misleading others also?
It is up to every individual to check the information and make their own decision.
Also remember it is GOD who guides those who choose to be guided.
Good debating to all.
Peace.Salaam
I agree with you that its good to exchange views and I along with others did debate on the subject of Hot Ramadan, I think it was back in 2009, after that I was banned from this forum for long time. Unfortunately that thread is now so long and wrapped around that most can not go through it anymore and many valuable arguments have been buried in this knot.
Peace -
Do you think Muhammad did the ritual prayer with raka and bowing and prostration?
This is unknowable, and therefore a fruitless question to pursuit. Why do you think this even matters? - let me rhetorically expand along the same line of thought without necessarily considering this question accusatory do you think that a person needs anything other than God's guidance and the Quran for learning how to practice Islam correctly?
A forum is for all users to discuss/argue/express their view/opinion... There will inevitably be disagreements.
Now it is up to every user to argue their case using evidence/scripture/facts... to support their point of view.
I disagree with your view that some are misleading others. If that is the case ,why are you not misleading others also?
It is up to every individual to check the information and make their own decision.
Peace.
Since there is only one Truth, if there is disagreement between two parties claiming to possess Truth, at least one side is wrong. Those who are wrong yet convince others they are right are misleading.
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This is unknowable, and therefore a fruitless question to pursuit. Why do you think this even matters? - let me rhetorically expand along the same line of thought without necessarily considering this question accusatory do you think that a person needs anything other than God's guidance and the Quran for learning how to practice Islam correctly?
Yes. What if someone only understands a language that the Qur'an hasn't been translated into? They would not be able to practice Islam without guidance. God never personally instructed me on how to interpret Qur'an, understand the historical context of the revelation, or translated an Arabic Qur'an into my language.
Since there is only one Truth, if there is disagreement between two parties claiming to possess Truth, at least one side is wrong. Those who are wrong yet convince others they are right are misleading.
Agreed. But all sides have failed to be convinced so that means everyone is wrong by your logic.
Like I said. If every single group of Muslims was correct who claimed that a different group of Muslims weren't "true Muslims" or weren't getting the whole truth, and that each group accused by another group of not being "true Muslims" were to disappear off the face of the earth, then not a single Muslim would exist on this planet.
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Do you think that God (37) is talking about BASIC RULES ? If BASIC RULES (marriage, salat etc) are hard to understand then what is easy to understand ?
a) IF BASIC RULES = EASY TO UNDERSTAND then problem is within us or... I don't know
b) IF BASIC RULES = HARD TO UNDERSTAND then the same was for Muhamed. So Hadiths are word of God. But it cant be true because God says clearly QURAN ALONEWhen you said you disagree with 1st paragraph can you tell me exactly why do you disagree ? Which point ?
well maybe you need to define what is so basic about basic?
if you define marriage as basic, Allah SWT has questioned it when he revealed to the world the concept of 3eesa AS..
maybe you need to have a paradigm shift..wallahua3lam
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well maybe you need to define what is so basic about basic?
if you define marriage as basic, Allah SWT has questioned it when he revealed to the world the concept of 3eesa AS..
maybe you need to have a paradigm shift..wallahua3lam
I define marriage as basic because it define our life in this life and in next life. With marriage you just start a new chapter of your life. God sent Quran to us to make a good life for us. Marriage, salat, dress code etc are basic elements of a good life. If God sent Quran and other scriptures to make a good life for us than why basic elements of a good life are not easy to understand ? If marriage is not basic what could be more basic than marriage ? Even a non-muslim would agree about it. If marriage is part of "not easy understanding" verses than what could be part of "easy understanding" verses ?
Peace to all
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If marriage is not basic what could be more basic than marriage ? Even a non-muslim would agree about it.
IMO
Life is a basic necessity,
Freedom of choice is another basic necessityand those two are there for a reason to test our choices/decisions.
we are created to make choices, and if the choices we make are correct then we served our purpose.correct is defined by an absolute authority, that guides to the straight path
if choices are made because of external authority other than the absolute, then we are taking the rights of the absolute to guide that chooser..i have a hunch, that is closer to certainty. that the Quran emphasizes with clarity on those two fundamental notion.
i'm sure that the Quran deals quite clearly without any shadow of a doubt about the infringements of those two fundamentals rights and the actions that are needed to be taken against themother than that such as salat, marriages, are peripheral needs, it would serve to sharpen the fundamental ideas..
wallahua3lam
