Relationships... is it allowed?

unknownuser

kissing, holding hands, going out on dates are 'halal' according to whom?

you may find it halal for you but it sure is not halal for me.

why would i put myself in a situation where a guy could 'date rape' me?
why would i put myself in a situation making it harder to resist temptations? we are dealing with strong emotions/sexual feelings. may be, you are not sexually aroused by kissing and holding hands but i am sure plenty would say that even thinking/talking to a person you have feelings for has an affect - feeling sexually aroused.
break-ups are traumatic. why would i make it worse for myself? ok - let's say i go out with boyfriend for sometime - going places, holding hands, kissing, etc. obviously, some level of connection will develop. 3 things can happen - a) we both end up getting married and live happily thereafter. so we have this fairy tale happy ending. b) we both end up going our separate ways parting as good friends c) i fall in love with him wanting to marry him but he doesn't feel the same or vice versa. if the relationship is going to end, why make it more painful having memories of kissing that person, dancing to a certain song, going to a certain restaurant, watching a certain movie, etc? i sure don't see how 'halal' this could be.
why would i put myself in a situation where a guy could just use me for his selfish reason and not be sincere in getting to know me for marriage but just having me around as a girlfriend?
how can it be a good thing to go out with one boyfriend/girlfriend and then the next and then the next until you find the right person?

you can get to know someone taking your time without holding hands, kissing, going out on dates, etc. i have asked guys - why do you want to kiss me, hold hands with me, go out to the movies with me? why do you need to do that to determine if i am the person for you?

by the way, you can date a person for years thinking you know the person well but still end up divorcing. you know how many marriages in western societies end in divorce?

Relationships are sensitive issues no matter marriage, dating, or friendships. You put your heart out there and are vulnerable no matter what the cirumstance. Don't think marriage is any better...people spend their entire lives changing. Don't expect the person you marry to be the same way for the rest of your lives.

One friend of mine told me something that I can never forget Respect is the most important thing in a relationship. If you don't have that, everything else will fall apart. I have found it to be so true.

If it's worth anything, I agree. Wait until you are married to engage in those activities to please Allah (swt). That way you can live each day knowing that you truly did things in accordance with the teachings of Islam.

With Peace,

Amina

justamuslim

Don't get a big head now..........lol

have you seen a picture of es? the girl sure has it and she knows it!

justamuslim

Don't think marriage is any better...people spend their entire lives changing. Don't expect the person you marry to be the same way for the rest of your lives.

One friend of mine told me something that I can never forget Respect is the most important thing in a relationship. If you don't have that, everything else will fall apart. I have found it to be so true.

nope, don't think that at all. i am divorced to know. respect, trust and compassion are paramount. when you enter a relationship with that understanding, you can have a solid marriage regardless of differences.

unknownuser

nope, don't think that at all. i am divorced to know. respect, trust and compassion are paramount. when you enter a relationship with that understanding, you can have a solid marriage regardless of differences.

I see. Well, you definitely know what you are looking for and seem very strong in your resolve. That's a great thing.

With Peace,

Amina

Liha

This is just my personal experience

I have been married for two years. We wanted to make sure our marriage was pure and done the right way, so we got married, barely knowing one another, but figuring that since we were Muslims things would work out (because that is what we were told). "Love often comes later in Muslim marriages." Yes, that is what we were told.

We are now on our way to divorcing, and why? Because we discovered we are two different people, Islamically, emotionally and mentally. The last two years of my life have been filled with so much stress and tears I cannot even begin to tell you. Two good things came from it My daughter and my new insight on Islam. Other than that, this marriage has been a test beyond belief.

So, if God wills for me to enter another marriage down the line, I will most definitely "date" with a chaperone present. I don't care if it's 3 months, 1 year, or 10 years...I will get to know the person before I accept any marriage proposal. I learned the hard way that just because two people share the same religious beliefs doesn't mean they should be together.

With Peace,

Amina

Salaam,

I am sorry to hear that you had a bad marriage and that it caused much heartache and pain. That definitely rates as one of the most emotionally devastating experiences. If not too painful for you--may I ask why you felt that you had to marry your husband so quickly?

Who are these people who told you that this was the only way to do things--marrying a virtual stranger so quickly and that this works for Muslims?

I wish you and your daughter the very best and Allah willing things will be better for you and to paraphrase the Quran with hardship comes ease.

Peace.

Abdul-Hakeem

kissing, holding hands, going out on dates are 'halal' according to whom?

you may find it halal for you but it sure is not halal for me.

why would i put myself in a situation where a guy could 'date rape' me?
why would i put myself in a situation making it harder to resist temptations? we are dealing with strong emotions/sexual feelings. may be, you are not sexually aroused by kissing and holding hands but i am sure plenty would say that even thinking/talking to a person you have feelings for has an affect - feeling sexually aroused.
break-ups are traumatic. why would i make it worse for myself? ok - let's say i go out with boyfriend for sometime - going places, holding hands, kissing, etc. obviously, some level of connection will develop. 3 things can happen - a) we both end up getting married and live happily thereafter. so we have this fairy tale happy ending. b) we both end up going our separate ways parting as good friends c) i fall in love with him wanting to marry him but he doesn't feel the same or vice versa. if the relationship is going to end, why make it more painful having memories of kissing that person, dancing to a certain song, going to a certain restaurant, watching a certain movie, etc? i sure don't see how 'halal' this could be.
why would i put myself in a situation where a guy could just use me for his selfish reason and not be sincere in getting to know me for marriage but just having me around as a girlfriend?
how can it be a good thing to go out with one boyfriend/girlfriend and then the next and then the next until you find the right person?

you can get to know someone taking your time without holding hands, kissing, going out on dates, etc. i have asked guys - why do you want to kiss me, hold hands with me, go out to the movies with me? why do you need to do that to determine if i am the person for you?

by the way, you can date a person for years thinking you know the person well but still end up divorcing. you know how many marriages in western societies end in divorce?

Salaam.

It's halal according to the Qur'an AND according to hadith for those who believe in them (though many would disagree about the hadith, the hadith contain nothing that prohibits kissing or touching). If it's not stated as haraam in the Qur'an, then it is halal. The proof for this is in Qur'an 16116

However, just because it's halal doesn't mean it's always healthy. It's halal for me to eat candy all day, but that's definitely not healthy.

Dating works for some people, and it doesn't work for others. Unfortunately, we live in a society that's sex-driven so often dating is turned into a quest for sex and someone ends up getting tricked or possibly worse. That's not the fault of dating, that's the fault of people.

Just because it could potentially be bad doesn't mean it's not halal. That's the beauty of Allah---He gave us multiple ways to find a spouse. Dating worked for me, and it's halal. You may want to take another route, and that's halal too. Some people would want arranged marriages, and so long as both parties 100% consent 100% willingly, then that too is halal.

unknownuser

Salaam,

I am sorry to hear that you had a bad marriage and that it caused much heartache and pain. That definitely rates as one of the most emotionally devastating experiences. If not too painful for you--may I ask why you felt that you had to marry your husband so quickly?

Who are these people who told you that this was the only way to do things--marrying a virtual stranger so quickly and that this works for Muslims?

I wish you and your daughter the very best and Allah willing things will be better for you and to paraphrase the Quran with hardship comes ease.

Peace.

Liha,

I thought that I was doing the right thing. I was a new convert to the religion, and everything I read talked about being a pious and obedient wife. All of his friends told him "You need to hurry up and marry that sister...she converted and you don't want to end up fornicating." Everything changed soon after that...

I tried to get him to go to counseling with me...to talk to someone so that we could fix the problem...but he declined everything, saying "We don't do that in Islam. We can solve this problem by ourselves." When I related the problem to other Muslims, they said the same thing..."Just keep praying...love often comes later in Islamic marriages. Keep being a good wife and Allah (swt) will reward you." Who doesn't want reward from Allah (swt)?

I was wrong...he didn't love me and we should have never gotten married.

Abdul-Hakeem

Liha,

I thought that I was doing the right thing. I was a new convert to the religion, and everything I read talked about being a pious and obedient wife. All of his friends told him "You need to hurry up and marry that sister...she converted and you don't want to end up fornicating." Everything changed soon after that...

I tried to get him to go to counseling with me...to talk to someone so that we could fix the problem...but he declined everything, saying "We don't do that in Islam. We can solve this problem by ourselves." When I related the problem to other Muslims, they said the same thing..."Just keep praying...love often comes later in Islamic marriages. Keep being a good wife and Allah (swt) will reward you." Who doesn't want reward from Allah (swt)?

I was wrong...he didn't love me and we should have never gotten married.

Salaam.

This is just further proof that the only One who is perfect is Allah. Others, as well-intentioned as they may be, still can give us terrible advice sometimes.

Not to detract from the topic of the post, but I'm curious is your husband a Western convert or was he born a Muslim?

unknownuser

We are both American converts. The interesting thing is that his father was a Muslim yet my husband never converted until he hit rough times...many of his Muslim friends are ex-convicts, and I am learning that they have a VERY fundamentalist view of Islam, and are heavy on the hadith. I guess I forgot to mention that my husband also did a short time in prison. That would have been a major deal breaker in most situations...but I just saw him as someone who had learned his lesson and was ready to get back on track.

My husband as a person is a good man...he has stayed true to his word and not been in any kind of trouble, and he credits Islam for that. He is the type of person that once you are his friend, you are one for life and he will do anything for you. He is a family man, and from what I can tell, a great father.

We just don't belong together in a relationship.

Liha

Yes, those dreadful books and pamphlets about the 'Ideal Muslimah' and how to be a pious and virtuous wife. They make me very cross as they guilt trip women and have a ridiculous and unrealistic approach towards gender and spirituality.
It seems quite a few women converts are coerced/urged to commit to marriages very early on in their acceptance of Islam. I personally do not like this as a new faith is a major commitment and a big change in itself. To add marriage to the mix-- that too to a relatively unknown person seems risky.
It just seems to be too much to take in.
Just keep praying is not very practical advise! Trust in God for sure but practical measures also have to be taken to rectify problems. You were right in suggesting couples counselling and am sorry that your husband was unwilling to consider it.
Peace.

justamuslim

I tried to get him to go to counseling with me...to talk to someone so that we could fix the problem...but he declined everything, saying "We don't do that in Islam. We can solve this problem by ourselves." When I related the problem to other Muslims, they said the same thing..."Just keep praying...love often comes later in Islamic marriages. Keep being a good wife and Allah (swt) will reward you." Who doesn't want reward from Allah (swt)?

I was wrong...he didn't love me and we should have never gotten married.

seriously? the koran does make it clear what measures to take to avoid divorce. going for counseling to work on the relationship is very Islamic. this is just yet another example of guys who are abusive to use God/religion to control. please don't believe all the things that you have been told.

divorce is by far one of the most painful of human experiences even when you are walking away from a toxic marriage. but know that you will get through and place your trust in God as he will give you the strength and take care of you. i came out firmer in my faith, better understanding of God and life, better person, more at peace - all thanks to God. when God says he will change your condition after divorce, believe in Him and place your trust, seek his help. and remember, you are not alone.

unknownuser

seriously? the koran does make it clear what measures to take to avoid divorce. going for counseling to work on the relationship is very Islamic. this is just yet another example of guys who are abusive to use God/religion to control. please don't believe all the things that you have been told.

divorce is by far one of the most painful of human experiences even when you are walking away from a toxic marriage. but know that you will get through and place your trust in God as he will give you the strength and take care of you. i came out firmer in my faith, better understanding of God and life, better person, more at peace - all thanks to God. when God says he will change your condition after divorce, believe in Him and place your trust, seek his help. and remember, you are not alone.

Thank you. I appreciate hearing this from others who have experienced it.

With Peace,

Amina

P.S. Feel free to send me a personal message...I don't want to hijack the topic too much

justamuslim

It's halal according to the Qur'an AND according to hadith for those who believe in them (though many would disagree about the hadith, the hadith contain nothing that prohibits kissing or touching). If it's not stated as haraam in the Qur'an, then it is halal. The proof for this is in Qur'an 16116

just because something is not stated black and white in the Koran, doesn't mean that it is forbidden or not forbidden. the Koran doesn't specifically mention kissing and so does that mean it is ok per God? i really would be careful before stating that it is ok or not ok by God. all that we can say is Koran did not mention kissing specifically.

I know that in hadiths, kissing and touching are mentioned. may be someone here may have heard of the following hadith and can refer to the right volume and scholar. there's a hadith that states it is better for a man to be pricked in the head with iron rod than to touch a woman unlawful to him.

and here's a hadith on kissing from Bukhari (book 10 504)
Narrated Ibn Masud
A man kissed a woman and then came to Allah's Apostle and told him of that, so this Divine Inspiration was revealed to the Prophet 'And offer Prayers perfectly at the two ends of the day, and in some hours of the night; (i.e. (five) compulsory prayers). Verily, the good deedsremove the evil deeds (small sins) That is a reminder for the mindful.' (11.114) The man said, Is this instruction for me only?' TheProphet said, "It is for all those of my followers who encounter a similar situation."

Note i am not a hadith follower. just saying that hadith does mention about kissing. in my previous post, just pointed out how dating can be 'haram' (meaning harmful/bad). now, would God who knows that there are players or users out there, people with preoccupation with sex, deviants, selfish, having no conscience, etc.... knowingly would God have made dating 'halal' (a good thing)? each person can decide for himself or herself what is haram and what is halal for him or her when it comes to dating - like you said.

God gave us the koran as a guidance and a brain. how we want to use it is up to us.

Red_Eye_Girl

just because something is not stated black and white in the Koran, doesn't mean that it is forbidden or not forbidden. the Koran doesn't specifically mention kissing and so does that mean it is ok per God? i really would be careful before stating that it is ok or not ok by God. all that we can say is Koran did not mention kissing specifically.

You shouldn't label things are haram if they aren't mentioned. The Quran is perfect and has stated what not to do and kissing isn't in there. Its like how some of those traditionalist try to repeatedly insist that drawing and music is haram and even bring up arguments saying that just because its not in the Quran it doesn't mean its okay with God.

Read this article
http//www.free-minds.org/halal-haram

The article specifically mentions this verse

"And do not say lies for what your tongues describes this is lawful (HALAL), and that is unlawful (HARAM), to lie about God. Those who lie about God will never succeed. They will have small pleasures (on Earth), AND FOR THEM IS A PAINFUL RETRIBUTION" (16/116-117)

You can't talk for God and say that it probably isn't okay with God even though God never mentioned it. Honestly, if there was a problem, God would have mentioned it just as God did with Zina, shirk, backbiting and other sins.

No one in the world considers kissing as wrong except the hardliner traditionalists which I know you aren't one considering you are here on this site. You see religious Jews and Christians who are People of the Book kiss even and keep a healthy relationship amongst one another without ever leading to sex. Plus don't you kiss your family? hug your family? Kissing a common thing that is simply an expression of love and friendship between people between those you love and even some close friends (like kissing the cheek of a friend which commonly happens in Italy especially). What steps out of boundries is sex and that is why we have strict laws about it as that involves the binding of love between two people that is extremely strong yet very dangerous as it can to children, extreme clinginess, addiction, possibly diseases, and if things break it causes emotional hurt to one or both people. Thus why we got such laws about it. Kissing doesn't have such an effect, its closeness no doubt and even if they break it won't phase them much cause kissing is something simple and done with just about anyone including your family, while sex is done with only your husband/wife or MMA.

Of course I assume you might say that it will affect you and that it will have deep scarrings on you, but everyone is different and feels differently about things. For example if someone were to take away my electronics, I would breakdown horribly, but for someone else they will be like "meh" and just do something else. And that really is the beauty of humanity in that we are all so different and not robots that act the same.

I am not asking you to considering kissing okay or anything, but that is only your ethics and you should not attribute your ethics to God when God made no mention of it as being haram whatsoever.

Note i am not a hadith follower. just saying that hadith does mention about kissing. in my previous post, just pointed out how dating can be 'haram' (meaning harmful/bad). now, would God who knows that there are players or users out there, people with preoccupation with sex, deviants, selfish, having no conscience, etc.... knowingly would God have made dating 'halal' (a good thing)? each person can decide for himself or herself what is haram and what is halal for him or her when it comes to dating - like you said.

well true anyone can label things and haram and halal for themselves, but you shouldn't attribute them to God if God hasn't made mention of it. There are players and users out there but there is danger every corner of the world and one must be careful as a result and be cautious to not fall into these traps.

Abdul-Hakeem

just because something is not stated black and white in the Koran, doesn't mean that it is forbidden or not forbidden. the Koran doesn't specifically mention kissing and so does that mean it is ok per God? i really would be careful before stating that it is ok or not ok by God. all that we can say is Koran did not mention kissing specifically.

I know that in hadiths, kissing and touching are mentioned. may be someone here may have heard of the following hadith and can refer to the right volume and scholar. there's a hadith that states it is better for a man to be pricked in the head with iron rod than to touch a woman unlawful to him.

and here's a hadith on kissing from Bukhari (book 10 504)
Narrated Ibn Masud
A man kissed a woman and then came to Allah's Apostle and told him of that, so this Divine Inspiration was revealed to the Prophet 'And offer Prayers perfectly at the two ends of the day, and in some hours of the night; (i.e. (five) compulsory prayers). Verily, the good deedsremove the evil deeds (small sins) That is a reminder for the mindful.' (11.114) The man said, Is this instruction for me only?' TheProphet said, "It is for all those of my followers who encounter a similar situation."

Note i am not a hadith follower. just saying that hadith does mention about kissing. in my previous post, just pointed out how dating can be 'haram' (meaning harmful/bad). now, would God who knows that there are players or users out there, people with preoccupation with sex, deviants, selfish, having no conscience, etc.... knowingly would God have made dating 'halal' (a good thing)? each person can decide for himself or herself what is haram and what is halal for him or her when it comes to dating - like you said.

God gave us the koran as a guidance and a brain. how we want to use it is up to us.

In that hadith, we don't know the man's situation. We don't know why he kissed the woman nor what the woman's relationship to him is. Common sense would say that kissing random women most likely is not a good thing. I'm talking about specifically in a committed relationship. During dating, but at the very least during engagement, kissing is fine. Hugging and (appropriate) touching is never a problem so long as it won't conceivably and inevitably lead to something worse.

But sister, your logic doesn't make sense. People obsessed with sex, players, heartbreakers, etc. will always exist. There are plenty of Muslimahs who have gotten married to such men, not knowing their true personalities because they decided to marry ASAP instead of dating. According to your reasoning, Allah should have made marriage haraam as well because of the great potential it has to break hearts and ruin lives (and marriage is a lot more risk-filled than halal dating).

I also didn't say each person can decide halal or haraam for himself. What is halal for me is halal for you, and what is haraam for me is haraam for you. What I said was that each person can decide how they want to find their spouse from the multiple halal ways of finding a spouse, including halal dating and halal arranged marriages.

justamuslim

You shouldn't label things are haram if they aren't mentioned.

"And do not say lies for what your tongues describes this is lawful (HALAL), and that is unlawful (HARAM), to lie about God. Those who lie about God will never succeed. They will have small pleasures (on Earth), AND FOR THEM IS A PAINFUL RETRIBUTION" (16/116-117)

You can't talk for God and say that it probably isn't okay with God even though God never mentioned it. Honestly, if there was a problem, God would have mentioned it just as God did with Zina, shirk, backbiting and other sins.

I am not asking you to considering kissing okay or anything, but that is only your ethics and you should not attribute your ethics to God when God made no mention of it as being haram whatsoever.

Please read my previous post. Like I said, all you can say is that it is not specifically mentioned in the koran.

Just as you said, 'you shouldn't label things as haram if they are not mentioned', you shouldn't label things as halal if they are not mentioned either. Referring to verse 16116 - "do not say this is lawful". did God say that kissing is lawful? so, you can't speak for God or attribute your views on God either.

are you basing your views on societal norms or basing it on the teachings of the Koran? you can't take your own liberal or conservative positions and use the koran to support your views. if you think kissing is ok to start with or kissing is not ok to start with, you can't then use the koran to justify your position.

just because something is not specifically spelled out black and white, doesn't mean that you can go around saying 'this is lawful' by God. i sure wouldn't say that making out with a guy is lawful per God. referring once again to the same verse 16116.

God doesn't specifically mention smoking marijuana or snorting crack cocaine. but based on the teachings of the koran, i can say that doing drugs is not a good thing or 'islamic' thing to do. when something is not specifically spelled out, don't you think we should try to understand within the context of the koran and based on the teachings of the koran if it is something that is good for us or not.

I also didn't say each person can decide halal or haraam for himself. What is halal for me is halal for you, and what is haraam for me is haraam for you. What I said was that each person can decide how they want to find their spouse from the multiple halal ways of finding a spouse, including halal dating and halal arranged marriages.

what do you consider 'halal' dating?

i was not clear or was off in my definition of haram/halal. as i define halal = good for you, haram = bad for you. not necessarily to mean haram = unlawful and halal = lawful. something can be lawful and yet can be haram depending on circumstance. i pointed out the potential harm in having a 'dating' relationship and how it is not a good thing.

and my views on dating is based on understanding what God says about being responsible, not being selfish, that hurting someone is wrong.

i think it is wrong and unethical for me to go out with a guy for months/years and then break his heart by saying sorry, i don't want to be with you anymore and then go onto the next guy. it is a cruel thing to do to have someone fall in love with you creating memories and then crushing his heart. hearbreaks are traumatic. this goes against the teachings of the Koran.

also in 1732, God makes it clear that fornication is evil and not to even go near it. what did God mean by saying not to go near it? would kissing be considered going near it? in my case it sure would be. ok, kissing/holding hands with your boyfriend/girlfriend is not the same as kissing someone else.

But sister, your logic doesn't make sense. People obsessed with sex, players, heartbreakers, etc. will always exist. There are plenty of Muslimahs who have gotten married to such men, not knowing their true personalities because they decided to marry ASAP instead of dating. According to your reasoning, Allah should have made marriage haraam as well because of the great potential it has to break hearts and ruin lives (and marriage is a lot more risk-filled than halal dating).

ok - what you are saying doesn't make sense to me.

God tells us to get to know someone and see if there is mutual understanding/attraction before deciding on marriage which is something to be taken seriously. you can get to know someone without dating the person. you can take as long as you want - months or years. if these woman got married ASAP - they sure didn't use their brain now did they? Did God tell us to be stupid and irresponsible? like I said, God gave us the Koran and the brain. How you want to use it is up to you.

your logic fails me here. so what you are saying is you need to 'date' someone before marrying that person so that you won't end up marrying a guy who is player? what would you consider to be a 'halal' way of dating a someone to see if he is a player?

let's say i meet this guy. and he is a sociopath but i don't know that. so what is the best way for me to know him? Date him? seriously? what if I go on a date with him and he rapes me? Ok - let's say we ask God and what do you think God would say? would God tell me to 'date' him - going out, making out with him? or would God tell me to get to know him in a healthy way addressing compatibility, mutual attraction, etc, getting to know his personality, habits, etc.

which method of getting to know someone would be best or most islamic?

In that hadith, we don't know the man's situation. We don't know why he kissed the woman nor what the woman's relationship to him is. Common sense would say that kissing random women most likely is not a good thing. I'm talking about specifically in a committed relationship. During dating, but at the very least during engagement, kissing is fine. Hugging and (appropriate) touching is never a problem so long as it won't conceivably and inevitably lead to something worse.

may be the guy was talking about his girlfriend. you don't know that. there are other hadiths that refute what you said about touching/hugging/kissing before marriage is fine. that's all that i am saying.

Red_Eye_Girl

Please read my previous post. Like I said, all you can say is that it is not specifically mentioned in the koran.

Just as you said, 'you shouldn't label things as haram if they are not mentioned', you shouldn't label things as halal if they are not mentioned either. Referring to verse 16116 - "do not say this is lawful". did God say that kissing is lawful? so, you can't speak for God or attribute your views on God either.

Wait let me get this straight...you seriously are saying that if something is not mentioned as halal its automatically not allowed? wow....just wow... I guess that means we can't watch TV, drive cars, chicken hasn't even been mentioned as "halal" and not "haram" either, heck the Quran didn't say if we are allowed to draw even though its not forbidden. Not even hardliner traditionalists think like that of the scary Wahabi sect think like that...okay I am not sure of that considering their views are to live as they did exactly 1400 years ago but still other than them that is quite VERY strict if that are indeed your views.

are you basing your views on societal norms or basing it on the teachings of the Koran? you can't take your own liberal or conservative positions and use the koran to support your views. if you think kissing is ok to start with or kissing is not ok to start with, you can't then use the koran to justify your position.

just because something is not specifically spelled out black and white, doesn't mean that you can go around saying 'this is lawful' by God. i sure wouldn't say that making out with a guy is lawful per God. referring once again to the same verse 16116.

Sure I can just as you are justifying your views based on your hardliner views. My proof is that the Quran has not mentioned it as haram therefore it is allowed just like chicken and drawing which even though not mentioned as haram are never mentioned as halal either.

God doesn't specifically mention smoking marijuana or snorting crack cocaine. but based on the teachings of the koran, i can say that doing drugs is not a good thing or 'islamic' thing to do. when something is not specifically spelled out, don't you think we should try to understand within the context of the koran and based on the teachings of the koran if it is something that is good for us or not.

Actually God does make mention of those being haram

"2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think."

Marajuana and Cocaine are intoxicants or better yet "what covers your brain" as the word used for intoxicant mean "cover" which in this case this covers drugs and alcohol.

i was not clear or was off in my definition of haram/halal. as i define halal = good for you, haram = bad for you. not necessarily to mean haram = unlawful and halal = lawful. something can be lawful and yet can be haram depending on circumstance. i pointed out the potential harm in having a 'dating' relationship and how it is not a good thing.

The only reason dating relationship are not good to you is cause you look at it from a very extreme point of view.

also in 1732, God makes it clear that fornication is evil and not to even go near it. what did God mean by saying not to go near it? would kissing be considered going near it? in my case it sure would be. ok, kissing/holding hands with your boyfriend/girlfriend is not the same as kissing someone else.

I love how people try to twist verses like these to fit their views. Traditionalists do such things ALL The time. Kissing is NOT going near it. Kissing is something you do with just about anyone from family to friends to your possibly future husband or wife. Religious Christian and Jewish couples kiss and they sure don't fornicate. Going near fornication is obviously meant the things that aren't sex but close to it such as the usable of genitalia to pleasure one another but not go into intercourse such as foreplay and various other techniques and this honestly is the only way for it to make sense considering the build up to intercourse usually involves foreplay. Kissing on the street, kissing good night, kissing goodbye, kissing over dinner, kissing while watching a movie together, kissing casually from time to time will not lead to sex no matter how you try to twist it. I don't know about you, if it leads you into sex then that is your problem not everyone elses. Only what truly takes you into fornicating is what is coming close. All that kissing is is really love and that is one thing that many people in the middle east especially seem to forget is that when you mention love they think it means sex. Being born and risen in the west has shown me the great difference between the two and thus why so many chaste couples exist and just kiss without ever going into sex. Why do you think God always ALWAYS brings up sex and only sex and other genetalia related things between two people only? cause that is what God has specified are the limits and thus if we cross them we have "transgressed". No laws exist for kissing and therefore no "transgression"

Traditionalist have taken it steps worser saying that the man can even shake hands with a woman let alone any of those other things and they got that from a hadith and I am guessing they try to interpret this verse using such a hadith. That is how much can twist it. One can simply state that looking into a womans eyes is coming close to fornicating, another might say shaking hands might, another might say that speaking even. You can take it literally to any level. Thus why this is YOUR view and you should try to justify YOUR view as the only possible view just because YOU find it wrong.

let's say i meet this guy. and he is a sociopath but i don't know that. so what is the best way for me to know him? Date him? seriously? what if I go on a date with him and he rapes me? Ok - let's say we ask God and what do you think God would say? would God tell me to 'date' him - going out, making out with him? or would God tell me to get to know him in a healthy way addressing compatibility, mutual attraction, etc, getting to know his personality, habits, etc.

One flaw of human beings is trying to interpret God. God as stated is beyond all of us and has been interpreted in countless ways. Muslims don't agree with each other and no one should try to put words into Gods mouth. The words of God have been stated in the Quran, and from there we take it and not add more. Therefore why if God hasn't condemned something, there is no problem. Sunnis tries to claim drawing is haram and that music will be on the side of injustice, and since the Quran says none of that I listen to music and draw.

Anyways I doubt i'm ever gonna make you agree with me but it reminds me heavily of traditionalist views which go as far as requiring women to cover their hair (not sure if you agree with them or not) but we may have to be each on our own views. All i'll wrap up with is to remember that God is not making things a burden and that human judgment is flawed and should not be taken to interpret things based it as there are varying views and should just look at the Quran alone.

That it all. Peace.

good_logic

Peace justamuslim, Red Eye Girl.

The following might give you a common cause , even draw you together. I can see good intention from both of you.

Now it all depends on the couple, where kissing is concerned. If both are " GOD conscious" or at least one of them ( accountability to the Lord) There is nothing wrong with kissing. It also depends of the intention inside the heart. GOD says

6151 ".... You shall not commit gross sins obvious or hidden. ( Your creator has put the instinct in you and given you instructions in HIS scripture to tell between right and wrong! l )

So of course there will be nothing wrong with kissing, we kiss for greeting, affection, love, respect, congratulations, missing someone close, relations....

The Intention inside someone s heart is very important.

I hope both of you find a common ground.

Peace.

justamuslim

Wait let me get this straight...you seriously are saying that if something is not mentioned as halal its automatically not allowed?

nope, that's not what i am saying. i cannot make myself any clearer than i already have. either i am not doing a good job or you are simply hearing what you want to hear and not getting it.

Actually God does make mention of those being haram

"2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think."

Marajuana and Cocaine are intoxicants or better yet "what covers your brain" as the word used for intoxicant mean "cover" which in this case this covers drugs and alcohol.

hmm, aren't you doing exactly what you say people shouldn't? saying something is haram when God didn't? ok - can you tell me where in this verse God says 'intoxicants' is HARAM? defining haram = unlawful.

what you are saying is that marijuana and alcohol are HARAM = unlawful. are you saying that morphine, alcohol, codeine, and other narcotics are all HARAM per God? if I take any of these 'intoxicants', are you saying that I am TRANSGRESSING? If I take cough syrup containing alcohol, are you saying that is HARAM? you did say alcohol is HARAM - right? Did God say marijuana is haram=unlawful? Where? aren't you also twisting verses as hardcore traditionalist?

did you read the verse that you pointed out yourself? God doesn't say intoxicants are HARAM = unlawful. In fact in the very verse that you pointed out, God says there is good in them but the potential of harm is greater than good. like i have stated clearly in my previous posts, something can be lawful but can be harmful given the circumstances. let me add that something that is lawful can be trangressions based on situation. example if i take morphine for toothache, that's lawful but if I crush morphine and shoot it up my vein to get high then i am transgressing (not only state law) but also God's command not to get intoxicated.

God does not specifically mention marijuana, cocaine, morphine, ecstacy, but we know what these things do to the body to label them as intoxicants or having intoxicating properties. God doesn't forbid intoxicants as they have benefits which God says so himself in 2219 but they can cause greater harm than good. And from the teachings of the Koran (avoiding potential harm to oneself and others), one can say that doing marijuana for recreational purposes is not a good thing or the islamic thing to do. some argue that marijuana is not an intoxicant just as alcohol is not but they can be and they can cause a greater harm than benefit. so consuming alcohol is not unlawful but depending on the circumstances sure can be unislamic. ex if i go out with my friend drinking and getting drunk. consuming morphine to dull my physical pain is islamic but to go the bar and get drunk to dull my emotional pain after breaking up with someone is not islamic way of dealing with situation.

Take home message is God would like us to avoid choosing something that has potential of more harm than than good. God would like us to take a healthy approach.

POINT God did NOT say marijuana is HARAM = unlawful. so does it make it HALAL? can i say taking marijuana is halal=lawful per God? some would argue about even considering marijuana as an intoxicant. God did not mention marijuana specifically but you can give a solid reasoning for considering it be an intoxicant and make the claim that the verse 2219 applies to marijuana. I don't know if people way back 1400 years ago grew marijuana? God did not say that marijuana is HARAM or HALAL specifically forbidding it. However, i am not imputing lies about God in saying that doing marijuana for recreational purposes is not islamic and not something that God would consider to be islamic. Given the potential of harm, it is best if you keep away from marijuana.

Ok - do you consider my point about marijuana or other intoxicants to be hardcore traditional view?

i have read articles on alcohol on this website and have read the very verse that you pointed out here, and if I am clearly in the wrong in saying in what I saying, i really would like someone to enlighten me. as for as i know, God did NOT specifically state narcotics, alcohols (intoxicants) are HARAM = unlawful. If I am wrong, i sure would like someone to correct me. Just because intoxicants are NOT haram = unlawful does it mean that it is HALAL? Just because it is not HARAM does it mean that is good for you?

essentially, i am using the same rational applying to relationships.

One can simply state that looking into a womans eyes is coming close to fornicating, another might say shaking hands might, another might say that speaking even. You can take it literally to any level. Thus why this is YOUR view and you should try to justify YOUR view as the only possible view just because YOU find it wrong.

and can you tell me where i said that it is MY view that talking to someone, looking into his eyes, shaking hands is fornicating? did I say that? why don't you go back and read my posts brickwall

The only reason dating relationship are not good to you is cause you look at it from a very extreme point of view.

all the points that I made about how dating can be harmful and not a good thing - can you tell me how they are based on traditionalists views?

unless dating results in marriage - hearbreaks are painful and devastating. sometimes taking years to heal and some never do. it is traumatic. you disagree with that? you know how many women are pressured into doing something that they did not want to do, sexually assaulted/raped on dates? here's the statistics in united states One in four women are victims of rape or attempted rape, 84 % of those women knew their attacker, 57 % of the rapes have happened while on dates. . you still consider dating to be a good thing when 57% percent of rapes have happened while on dates? This is not traditionalists view. These are statistics. This is reality. I sure would hate for a woman to add to that statistic. I am sure God wouldn't want that either. If you think that I am speaking for God and have issues with that - fine with me. and how many people have done things that they later come to regret?

ok - you don't see anything wrong, unethical, cruel in hurting someone? people get hurt - end up getting hurt or hurting others. that's part of dating. majority of dating relationships don't end in happy marriages. you can look up the statistics. (i am not talking about arranged marriages. let's not digress. we can start another thread and i will gladly express my views on how arranged marriages are not very islamic either). our hearts are our most vulnerable. to hurt someone in the matters of the heart is simply wrong. this is not the traditionalist view but an Islamic view. It is not the traditionalist view but God's views that it is wrong to act selfishly without much consideration and regard for the other person's feelings/wellbeing. God doesn't give us the right to act selfishly, using someone for our own selfish needs and to hurt the person is just wrong. Absolutely goes against the teachings of the Koran. so, do you disagree with that?

my views are based on my own past experiences, others experiences, and the teachings of the koran.

I love how people try to twist verses like these to fit their views. Traditionalists do such things ALL The time. Kissing is NOT going near it......kissing casually from time to time will not lead to sex no matter how you try to twist it. I don't know about you, if it leads you into sex then that is your problem not everyone elses.

have you ever had a boyfriend? have you ever made out with him? you mean to tell me that you never felt sexually aroused kissing your boyfriend? it is not MY opinion (or problem as you say) or traditionalists twisting verses but research on kissing have concluded that kissing can lead to passionate feelings and sexual activity. my reference How to Kiss Persuasively Learning how to kiss well is influential in love. Published on November 16, 2011 by Jeremy Nicholson, M.S.W., Ph.D. in The Attraction Doctor. article was published in psychology today.

God doesn't specifically say kissing is HARAM = unlawful but kissing CAN lead to sex. well, i should say depending on what you are kissing, could be transgression. i know some muslims argue that God didn't specifically state that kissing a woman's breast or oral sex is HARAM = unlawful. ok - i don't even want get into that.

kissing CAN lead to sex which is a clear transgression.

God says don't go near fornicating. God did not give a list of what he considers going near. what you consider going near may be different than what someone else may consider going near fornication. if someone considers being in the same room to be going near it that's perfectly fine as someone who doesn't. for you kissing may not be going near but for someone else it might be. why do you have issues with that?

you remind me of a guy i met. instead of arguing with him, i said fine and proved my point with him only with hugging. getting a whiff of my smell, holding me close to him, feeling me....let's just say that he had to leave the room. now, if we dated - holding hands, kissing, cuddling on the couch watching movie....we only would have made it harder on ourselves given the chemistry we had. putting aside fornication....if the relationship ends, even a sociopath suffers in some ways. why go through all that?

making out with different boyfriends, dating a guy for 5 years, getting my heart broken and going through that trauma, breaking hearts....sure don't see a lot of good in that. Putting Koran aside, tell me how going out with a guy for 5 years and then breaking up is a good thing? how is it good for your soul, your mind?

if you want to make out with different guys, having temporary emotional connections, having boyfriend for the sake of having a boyfriend or dating someone as your way of getting to know someone for marriage, that's fine but just don't say it is 'halal per God'. Aren't you guilty of doing the very thing that you accuse others of doing?

i have pointed out the potential harm in dating and why it is not really an 'islamic' way of getting to know someone. taking home the message from the Koran that God would not want us to choose a path that may be potentially more harmful. asking God for guidance and seeing what is the most islamic thing is not what I would consider speaking for God. we seek God's guidance in our daily lives.

God has given us the Koran and a brain. how we want to use it is up to us. God has given us the free will to live our lives the way we see fit. you can use the Koran as a guidance to decide what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong, what actions would lead to peaceful, harmonious wellbeing and what will not for your own self.

i didn't say if you kiss a guy, you are transgressing or that you are committing a sin. i didn't say that dating is transgressing. actually, i should say it all depends on what you consider dating and you are dating. as it can be labelled a transgression. all i am saying is that dating can be potentially harmful to one's well being. when you start dating, you don't know if it is going to end in matrimony. so it is better and yes you can get to know someone without dating that person and taking your time.

you can date a guy for months taking that chance of being a statistics (57% of women who reported being raped happened on a date), put yourself out there to get your heart crushed or crushing his heart, having memories of him every time you hear a certain song or watch a certain movie or smell a certain cologne. or you can take months to get to know a guy without becoming a statistics, keeping your heartbreak minimal, also being protective/considerate of his feelings,, parting on good terms upon learning that you are not right for each other, wishing each other well and going on in search of happiness.

personally, i prefer the latter. it is better. if i were to ask God for guidance of what path to take, i am sure he would want me to take the path that is most "islamic". i am yet to hear or experience any great harm coming out of NOT making out with a guy before marriage. has anyone? ok no wise answers!

Red_Eye_Girl

all the points that I made about how dating can be harmful and not a good thing - can you tell me how they are based on traditionalists views?

unless dating results in marriage - hearbreaks are painful and devastating.

And people date to get a possible person for marriage otherwise they are "friend with benefits" which obviously is not allowed cause we can't fornicate.

have you ever had a boyfriend? have you ever made out with him? you mean to tell me that you never felt sexually aroused kissing your boyfriend? it is not MY opinion (or problem as you say) or traditionalists twisting verses but research on kissing have concluded that kissing can lead to passionate feelings and sexual activity. my reference How to Kiss Persuasively Learning how to kiss well is influential in love. Published on November 16, 2011 by Jeremy Nicholson, M.S.W., Ph.D. in The Attraction Doctor. article was published in psychology today.

God doesn't specifically say kissing is HARAM = unlawful but kissing CAN lead to sex. well, i should say depending on what you are kissing, could be transgression. i know some muslims argue that God didn't specifically state that kissing a woman's breast or oral sex is HARAM = unlawful. ok - i don't even want get into that.

kissing CAN lead to sex which is a clear transgression.

If you wanna be THAT vague a lot of things can get a person aroused. Some people get aroused as easy as even looking at the other person, holding hands, maybe even by their smell, which has lead traditionalists to even recommend each other not to befriend women <_<

honestly you are really picking at straws here as kissing won't lead to sex if one has control. technically a man befriending a woman can be interpreted as leading to sex in its first form, but does that mean that shouldn't exist? no definately no as that is literally picking at straws just as it is with kissing. A spanish peanut and chocolate can even lead to someone feeling aroused yet we eat it. God is not that burdensome and therefore its up to us to have control.

It's rather simple. Basically what the verse is saying is that if you feel you are in a situation that will lead you to fornicate, STOP RIGHT THERE as we are then getting too close. But if you have control then there is no problem. Its all about control just as with eating, we can't eat to the point where we hurt ourselves. Thus why God never mentioned kissing as it is up to the person. If they can handle it then sure, if not then STAY AWAY FROM IT.

The only circumstances that lead to sex with out a doubt though would have to be stuff you can ONLY do with the other person. Kissing and hugging sure are not done only with a boyfriend, as they are done with family as well. Thus leaves foreplay which is ultimately the only decisive thing that leads to intercourse. Kissing comes down to if its actually leading to it. The Traditionalists always take too much of these unneeded precautions even though mankind has the capability to control itself like try to forbid men and women from praying next to each other, or even shaking hands. I know you don't believe that stuff (at least I hope you don't) and this is exactly the case here with kissing, it doesn't lead to sex majority of the time even if one feels aroused as many MANY things in like make people aroused as mentioned above and we sure don't try to forbid those.

Of course I probably am misreading what you are saying as you don't considering kissing as a transgression on its own, and I agree of course. However it comes down to our own limits. IF you think kissing will lead YOU into sex then avoid it, if not then do so if you wish.

God says don't go near fornicating. God did not give a list of what he considers going near. what you consider going near may be different than what someone else may consider going near fornication. if someone considers being in the same room to be going near it that's perfectly fine as someone who doesn't. for you kissing may not be going near but for someone else it might be. why do you have issues with that?

I don't have an issue with that. That is your interpretation, and you have different standards. That is fine, which as you said since there is no list, its up to us to determine for ourselves what leads to zina. For me kissing doesn't, for you it might and thus thats our barriers

I like your approach here especially in how you listed our different standards as the interpretation of that verse. Traditionalists usually say make a list out of whatever they believe is true (usually one based on society of 1400 years ago <&lt and claim all those as forbidden even though the person wouldn't necessarily be affect by a bunch of those. I remember seeing a Shia scholar once deeming men not to be friends with women O_O Therefore it just goes to show with that verse it comes down to our control and what is our own limits. I thank you for that ^^

you remind me of a guy i met. instead of arguing with him, i said fine and proved my point with him only with hugging. getting a whiff of my smell, holding me close to him, feeling me....let's just say that he had to leave the room. now, if we dated - holding hands, kissing, cuddling on the couch watching movie....we only would have made it harder on ourselves given the chemistry we had. putting aside fornication....if the relationship ends, even a sociopath suffers in some ways. why go through all that?

Lifes a test, and this would be another. Christian and Jewish couples have proved to have control, so why not us muslims? We definitely aren't any weaker then them.

making out with different boyfriends, dating a guy for 5 years, getting my heart broken and going through that trauma, breaking hearts....sure don't see a lot of good in that. Putting Koran aside, tell me how going out with a guy for 5 years and then breaking up is a good thing? how is it good for your soul, your mind?

You don't have to, thats your life and your decisions. I believe it works best for me so I do that.

i didn't say if you kiss a guy, you are transgressing or that you are committing a sin. i didn't say that dating is transgressing. actually, i should say it all depends on what you consider dating and you are dating. as it can be labelled a transgression. all i am saying is that dating can be potentially harmful to one's well being. when you start dating, you don't know if it is going to end in matrimony. so it is better and yes you can get to know someone without dating that person and taking your time.

I don't doubt you that it can be harmful, but I look at it half-full that there are good things like marriage that can come from it. Its like Yin and Yang, everything good has a bad side too. We just gotta be careful. Just as with dating we should be careful (better to be friends first then date after) and kiss if you don't think i'll lead you to sex.

you can date a guy for months taking that chance of being a statistics (57% of women who reported being raped happened on a date), put yourself out there to get your heart crushed or crushing his heart, having memories of him every time you hear a certain song or watch a certain movie or smell a certain cologne. or you can take months to get to know a guy without becoming a statistics, keeping your heartbreak minimal, also being protective/considerate of his feelings,, parting on good terms upon learning that you are not right for each other, wishing each other well and going on in search of happiness.

personally, i prefer the latter. it is better. if i were to ask God for guidance of what path to take, i am sure he would want me to take the path that is most "islamic". i am yet to hear or experience any great harm coming out of NOT making out with a guy before marriage. has anyone? ok no wise answers!

I don't doubt you can get your heart crush, but thats life. Its full of pain and agony. Loneliness is also pain and agony. Thus as I say, pick your poison but don't transgress as life will always have some pain but also some light. You choose your method, I have my own.

And if you wish not to kiss, that is your thing. I am not telling you to kiss, but all i'm saying is that there is nothing wrong with it. The rest is up to us really.