Relationships... is it allowed?
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I also agree with the notion that you don't know someone until you live with them. as far as I understand the Quran shows marriage to be a strict monogamous oath between two people and God and maybe sometimes the parents. I feel if two people who are attracted to each other and want to strive to live by Quran they should marry right away but. it would be smart to live together for whole year as married couple before making babies.
I agree with you. I have been thinking about practically how I would make this work as I am not going to have any physical contact at all with my intended or be going out on dates with him and stuff and this is my conclusion (thus, so far).
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I don't think you really know a person until you live with them. People are different outside their own home and you never know them until you see them in testing situations. I think that's when you find out what someone is really like. I know my friends whom I lived with at University know me better than any of my friends who I grew up with and have known for over 24 years.
Then again sometimes you never know what someone's really like.
You seem like you're under the age of 25. Dudette, seriously, when you're my age, you haven't got 5 years to waste. Plus if I was with a man for 5 years, I would definitely, without any doubt be having the most kinkiest, hardcore sex with him. Maybe that's just me.
I'm not saying 5 years is for everyone, you can go 4 years, 10 years, 2 years, 5 months, a year, a week, or instant, however you wish, but people only MOVE IN when they have known them for a while first. No one will allow a random person they don't know to live with them to know who they are first <_< its usually during the engagement/near engagement phase that that happens. Also if you aren't good with your hormones, that is you but not everyone as you said.
No problem sister.
Regarding to your question, Sahih International's translation is more clear
"...when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking 'akhdaan'"
So Allah is simply saying it is haraam to desire fornication and being friends with benefits instead of desiring to marry the woman and give her the marriage dowry when it's time for marriage.
Hope it's clear now
ah okay that makes much more sense Looking back to that translation of the verse too it seems more clear now
Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent females from those who are believers, and the independent females from those who have been given the Book before you, if you have given them their dowries, to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.
the bolded simply seems to point to what is lawful which started with food and then went onto state that the believers and the people of the scripture are lawful ONLY if you pay the dowry and marry them and not lawful if you take them for fornication or as friends with benefits.
I really should analyze things more then jump to only partially reading the verse XD
Thanks again ^_^ and may Allah reward you
I also agree with the notion that you don't know someone until you live with them. as far as I understand the Quran shows marriage to be a strict monogamous oath between two people and God and maybe sometimes the parents. I feel if two people who are attracted to each other and want to strive to live by Quran they should marry right away but. it would be smart to live together for whole year as married couple before making babies.
living with them is usually done after dating for a while though as no one will wanna live for for many years without knowing them first and trusting them into their house.
I agree with you. I have been thinking about practically how I would make this work as I am not going to have any physical contact at all with my intended or be going out on dates with him and stuff and this is my conclusion (thus, so far).
So you want an arranged marriage? cause honestly that is the only way that will work if you aren't going on a date with the person? or are you somehow gonna get someone to instantly marry you? Not sure if you are in the west though, but I know over in the east all that is quite a bit easier.
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Dear Red Eye,
I can't speak for anyone else, but I, personally am great with my hormones. I am a 27 year old woman, exceptionally attractive, aesthetically and otherwise and have had numerous proposals from men and women ranging from one night stands to marriage. However, I still chose to abstain to the degree which I have. In my extremely humble opinion, you will find that most people, especially when "in love" with their partner and being together for a prolonged period of time are extremely likely to be having sex. I don't know anyone who hasn't. Although, I am certain such people exist. Somewhere.
I am English. I was born and raised in England. I am not averse to arranged marriage. As God wills.
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I am a 27 year old woman, exceptionally attractive, aesthetically and otherwise and have had numerous proposals from men and women ranging from one night stands to marriage.
Don't get a big head now..........lol
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Girlfriend/boyfriend relationships are allowed. Of course, it depends on how you do it. Pre-marital sex is not allowed, obviously. Neither is showing one's naked body to the other. But most other things, like kissing, holding hands, and going out on dates, is halal.
kissing, holding hands, going out on dates are 'halal' according to whom?
you may find it halal for you but it sure is not halal for me.
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why would i put myself in a situation where a guy could 'date rape' me?
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why would i put myself in a situation making it harder to resist temptations? we are dealing with strong emotions/sexual feelings. may be, you are not sexually aroused by kissing and holding hands but i am sure plenty would say that even thinking/talking to a person you have feelings for has an affect - feeling sexually aroused.
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break-ups are traumatic. why would i make it worse for myself? ok - let's say i go out with boyfriend for sometime - going places, holding hands, kissing, etc. obviously, some level of connection will develop. 3 things can happen - a) we both end up getting married and live happily thereafter. so we have this fairy tale happy ending. b) we both end up going our separate ways parting as good friends c) i fall in love with him wanting to marry him but he doesn't feel the same or vice versa. if the relationship is going to end, why make it more painful having memories of kissing that person, dancing to a certain song, going to a certain restaurant, watching a certain movie, etc? i sure don't see how 'halal' this could be.
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why would i put myself in a situation where a guy could just use me for his selfish reason and not be sincere in getting to know me for marriage but just having me around as a girlfriend?
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how can it be a good thing to go out with one boyfriend/girlfriend and then the next and then the next until you find the right person?
you can get to know someone taking your time without holding hands, kissing, going out on dates, etc. i have asked guys - why do you want to kiss me, hold hands with me, go out to the movies with me? why do you need to do that to determine if i am the person for you?
by the way, you can date a person for years thinking you know the person well but still end up divorcing. you know how many marriages in western societies end in divorce?
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kissing, holding hands, going out on dates are 'halal' according to whom?
you may find it halal for you but it sure is not halal for me.
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why would i put myself in a situation where a guy could 'date rape' me?
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why would i put myself in a situation making it harder to resist temptations? we are dealing with strong emotions/sexual feelings. may be, you are not sexually aroused by kissing and holding hands but i am sure plenty would say that even thinking/talking to a person you have feelings for has an affect - feeling sexually aroused.
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break-ups are traumatic. why would i make it worse for myself? ok - let's say i go out with boyfriend for sometime - going places, holding hands, kissing, etc. obviously, some level of connection will develop. 3 things can happen - a) we both end up getting married and live happily thereafter. so we have this fairy tale happy ending. b) we both end up going our separate ways parting as good friends c) i fall in love with him wanting to marry him but he doesn't feel the same or vice versa. if the relationship is going to end, why make it more painful having memories of kissing that person, dancing to a certain song, going to a certain restaurant, watching a certain movie, etc? i sure don't see how 'halal' this could be.
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why would i put myself in a situation where a guy could just use me for his selfish reason and not be sincere in getting to know me for marriage but just having me around as a girlfriend?
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how can it be a good thing to go out with one boyfriend/girlfriend and then the next and then the next until you find the right person?
you can get to know someone taking your time without holding hands, kissing, going out on dates, etc. i have asked guys - why do you want to kiss me, hold hands with me, go out to the movies with me? why do you need to do that to determine if i am the person for you?
by the way, you can date a person for years thinking you know the person well but still end up divorcing. you know how many marriages in western societies end in divorce?
Relationships are sensitive issues no matter marriage, dating, or friendships. You put your heart out there and are vulnerable no matter what the cirumstance. Don't think marriage is any better...people spend their entire lives changing. Don't expect the person you marry to be the same way for the rest of your lives.
One friend of mine told me something that I can never forget Respect is the most important thing in a relationship. If you don't have that, everything else will fall apart. I have found it to be so true.
If it's worth anything, I agree. Wait until you are married to engage in those activities to please Allah (swt). That way you can live each day knowing that you truly did things in accordance with the teachings of Islam.
With Peace,
Amina
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Don't get a big head now..........lol
have you seen a picture of es? the girl sure has it and she knows it!
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Don't think marriage is any better...people spend their entire lives changing. Don't expect the person you marry to be the same way for the rest of your lives.
One friend of mine told me something that I can never forget Respect is the most important thing in a relationship. If you don't have that, everything else will fall apart. I have found it to be so true.
nope, don't think that at all. i am divorced to know. respect, trust and compassion are paramount. when you enter a relationship with that understanding, you can have a solid marriage regardless of differences.
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nope, don't think that at all. i am divorced to know. respect, trust and compassion are paramount. when you enter a relationship with that understanding, you can have a solid marriage regardless of differences.
I see. Well, you definitely know what you are looking for and seem very strong in your resolve. That's a great thing.
With Peace,
Amina
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This is just my personal experience
I have been married for two years. We wanted to make sure our marriage was pure and done the right way, so we got married, barely knowing one another, but figuring that since we were Muslims things would work out (because that is what we were told). "Love often comes later in Muslim marriages." Yes, that is what we were told.
We are now on our way to divorcing, and why? Because we discovered we are two different people, Islamically, emotionally and mentally. The last two years of my life have been filled with so much stress and tears I cannot even begin to tell you. Two good things came from it My daughter and my new insight on Islam. Other than that, this marriage has been a test beyond belief.
So, if God wills for me to enter another marriage down the line, I will most definitely "date" with a chaperone present. I don't care if it's 3 months, 1 year, or 10 years...I will get to know the person before I accept any marriage proposal. I learned the hard way that just because two people share the same religious beliefs doesn't mean they should be together.
With Peace,
Amina
Salaam,
I am sorry to hear that you had a bad marriage and that it caused much heartache and pain. That definitely rates as one of the most emotionally devastating experiences. If not too painful for you--may I ask why you felt that you had to marry your husband so quickly?
Who are these people who told you that this was the only way to do things--marrying a virtual stranger so quickly and that this works for Muslims?
I wish you and your daughter the very best and Allah willing things will be better for you and to paraphrase the Quran with hardship comes ease.
Peace.
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kissing, holding hands, going out on dates are 'halal' according to whom?
you may find it halal for you but it sure is not halal for me.
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why would i put myself in a situation where a guy could 'date rape' me?
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why would i put myself in a situation making it harder to resist temptations? we are dealing with strong emotions/sexual feelings. may be, you are not sexually aroused by kissing and holding hands but i am sure plenty would say that even thinking/talking to a person you have feelings for has an affect - feeling sexually aroused.
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break-ups are traumatic. why would i make it worse for myself? ok - let's say i go out with boyfriend for sometime - going places, holding hands, kissing, etc. obviously, some level of connection will develop. 3 things can happen - a) we both end up getting married and live happily thereafter. so we have this fairy tale happy ending. b) we both end up going our separate ways parting as good friends c) i fall in love with him wanting to marry him but he doesn't feel the same or vice versa. if the relationship is going to end, why make it more painful having memories of kissing that person, dancing to a certain song, going to a certain restaurant, watching a certain movie, etc? i sure don't see how 'halal' this could be.
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why would i put myself in a situation where a guy could just use me for his selfish reason and not be sincere in getting to know me for marriage but just having me around as a girlfriend?
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how can it be a good thing to go out with one boyfriend/girlfriend and then the next and then the next until you find the right person?
you can get to know someone taking your time without holding hands, kissing, going out on dates, etc. i have asked guys - why do you want to kiss me, hold hands with me, go out to the movies with me? why do you need to do that to determine if i am the person for you?
by the way, you can date a person for years thinking you know the person well but still end up divorcing. you know how many marriages in western societies end in divorce?
Salaam.
It's halal according to the Qur'an AND according to hadith for those who believe in them (though many would disagree about the hadith, the hadith contain nothing that prohibits kissing or touching). If it's not stated as haraam in the Qur'an, then it is halal. The proof for this is in Qur'an 16116
However, just because it's halal doesn't mean it's always healthy. It's halal for me to eat candy all day, but that's definitely not healthy.
Dating works for some people, and it doesn't work for others. Unfortunately, we live in a society that's sex-driven so often dating is turned into a quest for sex and someone ends up getting tricked or possibly worse. That's not the fault of dating, that's the fault of people.
Just because it could potentially be bad doesn't mean it's not halal. That's the beauty of Allah---He gave us multiple ways to find a spouse. Dating worked for me, and it's halal. You may want to take another route, and that's halal too. Some people would want arranged marriages, and so long as both parties 100% consent 100% willingly, then that too is halal.
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Salaam,
I am sorry to hear that you had a bad marriage and that it caused much heartache and pain. That definitely rates as one of the most emotionally devastating experiences. If not too painful for you--may I ask why you felt that you had to marry your husband so quickly?
Who are these people who told you that this was the only way to do things--marrying a virtual stranger so quickly and that this works for Muslims?
I wish you and your daughter the very best and Allah willing things will be better for you and to paraphrase the Quran with hardship comes ease.
Peace.
Liha,
I thought that I was doing the right thing. I was a new convert to the religion, and everything I read talked about being a pious and obedient wife. All of his friends told him "You need to hurry up and marry that sister...she converted and you don't want to end up fornicating." Everything changed soon after that...
I tried to get him to go to counseling with me...to talk to someone so that we could fix the problem...but he declined everything, saying "We don't do that in Islam. We can solve this problem by ourselves." When I related the problem to other Muslims, they said the same thing..."Just keep praying...love often comes later in Islamic marriages. Keep being a good wife and Allah (swt) will reward you." Who doesn't want reward from Allah (swt)?
I was wrong...he didn't love me and we should have never gotten married.
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Liha,
I thought that I was doing the right thing. I was a new convert to the religion, and everything I read talked about being a pious and obedient wife. All of his friends told him "You need to hurry up and marry that sister...she converted and you don't want to end up fornicating." Everything changed soon after that...
I tried to get him to go to counseling with me...to talk to someone so that we could fix the problem...but he declined everything, saying "We don't do that in Islam. We can solve this problem by ourselves." When I related the problem to other Muslims, they said the same thing..."Just keep praying...love often comes later in Islamic marriages. Keep being a good wife and Allah (swt) will reward you." Who doesn't want reward from Allah (swt)?
I was wrong...he didn't love me and we should have never gotten married.
Salaam.
This is just further proof that the only One who is perfect is Allah. Others, as well-intentioned as they may be, still can give us terrible advice sometimes.
Not to detract from the topic of the post, but I'm curious is your husband a Western convert or was he born a Muslim?
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We are both American converts. The interesting thing is that his father was a Muslim yet my husband never converted until he hit rough times...many of his Muslim friends are ex-convicts, and I am learning that they have a VERY fundamentalist view of Islam, and are heavy on the hadith. I guess I forgot to mention that my husband also did a short time in prison. That would have been a major deal breaker in most situations...but I just saw him as someone who had learned his lesson and was ready to get back on track.
My husband as a person is a good man...he has stayed true to his word and not been in any kind of trouble, and he credits Islam for that. He is the type of person that once you are his friend, you are one for life and he will do anything for you. He is a family man, and from what I can tell, a great father.
We just don't belong together in a relationship.
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Yes, those dreadful books and pamphlets about the 'Ideal Muslimah' and how to be a pious and virtuous wife. They make me very cross as they guilt trip women and have a ridiculous and unrealistic approach towards gender and spirituality.
It seems quite a few women converts are coerced/urged to commit to marriages very early on in their acceptance of Islam. I personally do not like this as a new faith is a major commitment and a big change in itself. To add marriage to the mix-- that too to a relatively unknown person seems risky.
It just seems to be too much to take in.
Just keep praying is not very practical advise! Trust in God for sure but practical measures also have to be taken to rectify problems. You were right in suggesting couples counselling and am sorry that your husband was unwilling to consider it.
Peace. -
I tried to get him to go to counseling with me...to talk to someone so that we could fix the problem...but he declined everything, saying "We don't do that in Islam. We can solve this problem by ourselves." When I related the problem to other Muslims, they said the same thing..."Just keep praying...love often comes later in Islamic marriages. Keep being a good wife and Allah (swt) will reward you." Who doesn't want reward from Allah (swt)?
I was wrong...he didn't love me and we should have never gotten married.
seriously? the koran does make it clear what measures to take to avoid divorce. going for counseling to work on the relationship is very Islamic. this is just yet another example of guys who are abusive to use God/religion to control. please don't believe all the things that you have been told.
divorce is by far one of the most painful of human experiences even when you are walking away from a toxic marriage. but know that you will get through and place your trust in God as he will give you the strength and take care of you. i came out firmer in my faith, better understanding of God and life, better person, more at peace - all thanks to God. when God says he will change your condition after divorce, believe in Him and place your trust, seek his help. and remember, you are not alone.
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seriously? the koran does make it clear what measures to take to avoid divorce. going for counseling to work on the relationship is very Islamic. this is just yet another example of guys who are abusive to use God/religion to control. please don't believe all the things that you have been told.
divorce is by far one of the most painful of human experiences even when you are walking away from a toxic marriage. but know that you will get through and place your trust in God as he will give you the strength and take care of you. i came out firmer in my faith, better understanding of God and life, better person, more at peace - all thanks to God. when God says he will change your condition after divorce, believe in Him and place your trust, seek his help. and remember, you are not alone.
Thank you. I appreciate hearing this from others who have experienced it.
With Peace,
Amina
P.S. Feel free to send me a personal message...I don't want to hijack the topic too much
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It's halal according to the Qur'an AND according to hadith for those who believe in them (though many would disagree about the hadith, the hadith contain nothing that prohibits kissing or touching). If it's not stated as haraam in the Qur'an, then it is halal. The proof for this is in Qur'an 16116
just because something is not stated black and white in the Koran, doesn't mean that it is forbidden or not forbidden. the Koran doesn't specifically mention kissing and so does that mean it is ok per God? i really would be careful before stating that it is ok or not ok by God. all that we can say is Koran did not mention kissing specifically.
I know that in hadiths, kissing and touching are mentioned. may be someone here may have heard of the following hadith and can refer to the right volume and scholar. there's a hadith that states it is better for a man to be pricked in the head with iron rod than to touch a woman unlawful to him.
and here's a hadith on kissing from Bukhari (book 10 504)
Narrated Ibn Masud
A man kissed a woman and then came to Allah's Apostle and told him of that, so this Divine Inspiration was revealed to the Prophet 'And offer Prayers perfectly at the two ends of the day, and in some hours of the night; (i.e. (five) compulsory prayers). Verily, the good deedsremove the evil deeds (small sins) That is a reminder for the mindful.' (11.114) The man said, Is this instruction for me only?' TheProphet said, "It is for all those of my followers who encounter a similar situation."Note i am not a hadith follower. just saying that hadith does mention about kissing. in my previous post, just pointed out how dating can be 'haram' (meaning harmful/bad). now, would God who knows that there are players or users out there, people with preoccupation with sex, deviants, selfish, having no conscience, etc.... knowingly would God have made dating 'halal' (a good thing)? each person can decide for himself or herself what is haram and what is halal for him or her when it comes to dating - like you said.
God gave us the koran as a guidance and a brain. how we want to use it is up to us.
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just because something is not stated black and white in the Koran, doesn't mean that it is forbidden or not forbidden. the Koran doesn't specifically mention kissing and so does that mean it is ok per God? i really would be careful before stating that it is ok or not ok by God. all that we can say is Koran did not mention kissing specifically.
You shouldn't label things are haram if they aren't mentioned. The Quran is perfect and has stated what not to do and kissing isn't in there. Its like how some of those traditionalist try to repeatedly insist that drawing and music is haram and even bring up arguments saying that just because its not in the Quran it doesn't mean its okay with God.
Read this article
http//www.free-minds.org/halal-haramThe article specifically mentions this verse
"And do not say lies for what your tongues describes this is lawful (HALAL), and that is unlawful (HARAM), to lie about God. Those who lie about God will never succeed. They will have small pleasures (on Earth), AND FOR THEM IS A PAINFUL RETRIBUTION" (16/116-117)
You can't talk for God and say that it probably isn't okay with God even though God never mentioned it. Honestly, if there was a problem, God would have mentioned it just as God did with Zina, shirk, backbiting and other sins.
No one in the world considers kissing as wrong except the hardliner traditionalists which I know you aren't one considering you are here on this site. You see religious Jews and Christians who are People of the Book kiss even and keep a healthy relationship amongst one another without ever leading to sex. Plus don't you kiss your family? hug your family? Kissing a common thing that is simply an expression of love and friendship between people between those you love and even some close friends (like kissing the cheek of a friend which commonly happens in Italy especially). What steps out of boundries is sex and that is why we have strict laws about it as that involves the binding of love between two people that is extremely strong yet very dangerous as it can to children, extreme clinginess, addiction, possibly diseases, and if things break it causes emotional hurt to one or both people. Thus why we got such laws about it. Kissing doesn't have such an effect, its closeness no doubt and even if they break it won't phase them much cause kissing is something simple and done with just about anyone including your family, while sex is done with only your husband/wife or MMA.
Of course I assume you might say that it will affect you and that it will have deep scarrings on you, but everyone is different and feels differently about things. For example if someone were to take away my electronics, I would breakdown horribly, but for someone else they will be like "meh" and just do something else. And that really is the beauty of humanity in that we are all so different and not robots that act the same.
I am not asking you to considering kissing okay or anything, but that is only your ethics and you should not attribute your ethics to God when God made no mention of it as being haram whatsoever.
Note i am not a hadith follower. just saying that hadith does mention about kissing. in my previous post, just pointed out how dating can be 'haram' (meaning harmful/bad). now, would God who knows that there are players or users out there, people with preoccupation with sex, deviants, selfish, having no conscience, etc.... knowingly would God have made dating 'halal' (a good thing)? each person can decide for himself or herself what is haram and what is halal for him or her when it comes to dating - like you said.
well true anyone can label things and haram and halal for themselves, but you shouldn't attribute them to God if God hasn't made mention of it. There are players and users out there but there is danger every corner of the world and one must be careful as a result and be cautious to not fall into these traps.
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just because something is not stated black and white in the Koran, doesn't mean that it is forbidden or not forbidden. the Koran doesn't specifically mention kissing and so does that mean it is ok per God? i really would be careful before stating that it is ok or not ok by God. all that we can say is Koran did not mention kissing specifically.
I know that in hadiths, kissing and touching are mentioned. may be someone here may have heard of the following hadith and can refer to the right volume and scholar. there's a hadith that states it is better for a man to be pricked in the head with iron rod than to touch a woman unlawful to him.
and here's a hadith on kissing from Bukhari (book 10 504)
Narrated Ibn Masud
A man kissed a woman and then came to Allah's Apostle and told him of that, so this Divine Inspiration was revealed to the Prophet 'And offer Prayers perfectly at the two ends of the day, and in some hours of the night; (i.e. (five) compulsory prayers). Verily, the good deedsremove the evil deeds (small sins) That is a reminder for the mindful.' (11.114) The man said, Is this instruction for me only?' TheProphet said, "It is for all those of my followers who encounter a similar situation."Note i am not a hadith follower. just saying that hadith does mention about kissing. in my previous post, just pointed out how dating can be 'haram' (meaning harmful/bad). now, would God who knows that there are players or users out there, people with preoccupation with sex, deviants, selfish, having no conscience, etc.... knowingly would God have made dating 'halal' (a good thing)? each person can decide for himself or herself what is haram and what is halal for him or her when it comes to dating - like you said.
God gave us the koran as a guidance and a brain. how we want to use it is up to us.
In that hadith, we don't know the man's situation. We don't know why he kissed the woman nor what the woman's relationship to him is. Common sense would say that kissing random women most likely is not a good thing. I'm talking about specifically in a committed relationship. During dating, but at the very least during engagement, kissing is fine. Hugging and (appropriate) touching is never a problem so long as it won't conceivably and inevitably lead to something worse.
But sister, your logic doesn't make sense. People obsessed with sex, players, heartbreakers, etc. will always exist. There are plenty of Muslimahs who have gotten married to such men, not knowing their true personalities because they decided to marry ASAP instead of dating. According to your reasoning, Allah should have made marriage haraam as well because of the great potential it has to break hearts and ruin lives (and marriage is a lot more risk-filled than halal dating).
I also didn't say each person can decide halal or haraam for himself. What is halal for me is halal for you, and what is haraam for me is haraam for you. What I said was that each person can decide how they want to find their spouse from the multiple halal ways of finding a spouse, including halal dating and halal arranged marriages.