The Challenge Yet To Be Met

Bodhisvasti

Bodhisvasti,

I would bet money (if I bet ) that you have been on a few different forums searching this way.

I can tell from your answers that you have had a fairly limited education, I would bet it is only recently that you attained your G.E.D.
You answer rhetorical questions with the confidence of a professor but with the application of a child.

You have dipped your tow in the water of a few different belief systems.

You can never expect a different outcome if you continue to do things the same way (this is a definition of madness)
Yet you continue to approach this subject (and one would guess the last or next subject) with the same juvenile logic and mind set.

With respect you have not understood my posts or others and I am not even sure you can understand them.

I have seen this a hundred times!
I will not post to you again.
Maybe I will see you in your next forum in your next guise as a Atheist communist, buddhist or Vedantist.

brickwall

You would have lost big time in that bet.

This is the ONLY forum I have gone to about this topic, because it is the best Quranist forum I have seen, and I reject the Hadiths as valid to Islam in any way.

Fairly limited intelligence? That is extremely rude. You seem to have fairly limited answers to the question at hand. And as a matter in fact, I did get my GED, but not recently, does that really mean I an stupid or such? No. Far from it in fact. I am constantly looking things up, learning new ideas and discoveries, mainly my searching falls into science and religion. I also plan to attend college soon for Psychology, so that I can find real cures to the suffering of humans.

I have not only dipped my 'toes' in many different religions, I have full on dove into them. I have studied many in depth, their histories, backgrounds, beliefs, religious scriptures, etc, etc. I have studied Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity and it's many sects, Islam, both Shia and Sunni, Daoism, Neo-Paganism, Sikhism, Jainism, Gnosticism, etc, etc, etc. You know what that means? That means I am more capable of judging wether or not a religion is the 'true religion', if that is even possible, then you are. Have you even studied outside of Islam? I mean truly studied, as in you just didn't take a quick glance at the other religion and say "Nope, can't be true, nuh uh, no way", but actually looked at one, many, with an un-biased mind, and just used your own rational intellect, your wisdom. I highly doubt it.

There is no juvenile logic and mind set about my questioning in any way. You just can't seem to manage a rational answer. An answer that would make sense to something so illogical, and if true, evil.

I understand very well what everyone has said, it's just that no one, not a single person, can justify such an irrational idea. Everything I have gotten here, I have gotten from the leaders of the churches here, or other religious people with the same belief of an all-knowing God. And you know what, so far it has all been nonsense, and nothing but propaganda, a clinging to the belief. Not one person here has really answered the question, because not one can.

Maybe you have seen this a hundred times, but I am not one of those trolls. I am a serious truth seeker, looking for God, if he exists. And the only place I have found the possibility of that, is in the Quran. But this one thing, destroys the entire religion, until I can be shown otherwise a rational explanation.

By the way, just to be clear, I am a practicing Buddhist Agnostic. Secular Buddhism. Buddhism is simply the study of reality as it is, and the path to ending mental sufferings. It's proven to be useful and helpful. But I feel that there is more out there. That maybe there is a Self, a soul, and possibly an afterlife. At least I hope so.

I have said it before, and I will say it again...

God has knowledge of all things.

God created the universe, knowing all that would take place before the actual creation. Everything, down to every thought that would be thought of. Down to every action that would be took, every word that would be spoken of.

Before creation, God already knew, fully, who would and would not go to hell.

God did not have to make this universe, he could have made that one, or that one, or that one. Where I would be born and come to believe in Him. Where everyone would believe in Him and go to heaven.

Going by the last two statements, God is evil, because he predestined so and so for heaven, and so and so for eternal damnation, to suffer by burning for all of eternity.

There is no getting out of this, it is clear in the Quran. Unless God only knows all, past and present, and through our making, because of our souls, he does not know who will be worthy of heaven and hell.

Do not resort to insults, simply because you can't rationalise a belief that you hold.

I am not a troll. I am not attacking your religion. I am seeking truth, and questioning sincerely.

Give me a real answer, a rational answer, or none at all.

Bodhisvasti

Salaam,

No, I don't like the way he discuss.
He doesn't want to discuss but he wants to dictate.
He really thinks that he has come up with something genius, but it's nothing but a standard refuting concept of atheists.

Salaam,
Bender

Bender, I started off peacefully, but after recieving the same old propaganda, and not a real answer, I will admit, I have become very frustrated. And I apologise for that.

But I do not want to dictate anything. I just want a real and valid answer.

Bodhisvasti

You mean, if a teacher know about two of his students going to fail this year in examination, does that mean, while correcting their papers, this teacher will fail them even if they write their exam in better way?

If you are referring Satan to Iblis, then he was not created separately. And he asked Allah to give him time until the last hour, his prayers are accepted , so how Allah is responsible. Even if you ask Allah to make you rich so that you can do all bad things, etc., your prayers will also be accepted, but later you will have to face its result as Iblis is going to face also about his deeds.

hypno Where did you get this idea?

Wrong! Nothing is created in ANY WAY.

Every body was created the same way and was given an absolute free will. We are the one who decides and chose what we like as Iblis does.

Again knowing is different than predestining.
Can bring up any aayat on your claim? Please!

711
711 And We have certainly created you, and given you form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

712
712 said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."

Is this not a free will?

mmKhan

That is a wrong analogy. This is one that better shows what I mean.

A teacher creates an examination, knowing BEFORE who would and would not pass. There is no better way for them, because that simply is how it is. The teacher knew all before even thinking about the exam, he knew who would pass and who would not, for sure, without doubt. That is predestination, because the Teacher could have created a test that everyone would pass.

But God already knew before even making Satan, that he would rebel and tempt us, so why make him? He knew before creating Satan, that when he created man, and told the angels to bow down to him, that Satan would refuse and rebel. So why make him? That is predestination, because Satan was bound to do that in the first place, for God knew he would.

Why don't some of you try putting yourselves in Gods shoes, and try justifying this then?

None of that describes free will. Just the opposite.

Muddy

You would have lost big time in that bet.

This is the ONLY forum I have gone to about this topic, because it is the best Quranist forum I have seen, and I reject the Hadiths as valid to Islam in any way.

Fairly limited intelligence? That is extremely rude. You seem to have fairly limited answers to the question at hand. And as a matter in fact, I did get my GED, but not recently, does that really mean I an stupid or such? No. Far from it in fact. I am constantly looking things up, learning new ideas and discoveries, mainly my searching falls into science and religion. I also plan to attend college soon for Psychology, so that I can find real cures to the suffering of humans.

I have not only dipped my 'toes' in many different religions, I have full on dove into them. I have studied many in depth, their histories, backgrounds, beliefs, religious scriptures, etc, etc. I have studied Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity and it's many sects, Islam, both Shia and Sunni, Daoism, Neo-Paganism, Sikhism, Jainism, Gnosticism, etc, etc, etc. You know what that means? That means I am more capable of judging wether or not a religion is the 'true religion', if that is even possible, then you are. Have you even studied outside of Islam? I mean truly studied, as in you just didn't take a quick glance at the other religion and say "Nope, can't be true, nuh uh, no way", but actually looked at one, many, with an un-biased mind, and just used your own rational intellect, your wisdom. I highly doubt it.

There is no juvenile logic and mind set about my questioning in any way. You just can't seem to manage a rational answer. An answer that would make sense to something so illogical, and if true, evil.

I understand very well what everyone has said, it's just that no one, not a single person, can justify such an irrational idea. Everything I have gotten here, I have gotten from the leaders of the churches here, or other religious people with the same belief of an all-knowing God. And you know what, so far it has all been nonsense, and nothing but propaganda, a clinging to the belief. Not one person here has really answered the question, because not one can.

Maybe you have seen this a hundred times, but I am not one of those trolls. I am a serious truth seeker, looking for God, if he exists. And the only place I have found the possibility of that, is in the Quran. But this one thing, destroys the entire religion, until I can be shown otherwise a rational explanation.

By the way, just to be clear, I am a practicing Buddhist Agnostic. Secular Buddhism. Buddhism is simply the study of reality as it is, and the path to ending mental sufferings. It's proven to be useful and helpful. But I feel that there is more out there. That maybe there is a Self, a soul, and possibly an afterlife. At least I hope so.

I have said it before, and I will say it again...

God has knowledge of all things.

God created the universe, knowing all that would take place before the actual creation. Everything, down to every thought that would be thought of. Down to every action that would be took, every word that would be spoken of.

Before creation, God already knew, fully, who would and would not go to hell.

God did not have to make this universe, he could have made that one, or that one, or that one. Where I would be born and come to believe in Him. Where everyone would believe in Him and go to heaven.

Going by the last two statements, God is evil, because he predestined so and so for heaven, and so and so for eternal damnation, to suffer by burning for all of eternity.

There is no getting out of this, it is clear in the Quran. Unless God only knows all, past and present, and through our making, because of our souls, he does not know who will be worthy of heaven and hell.

Do not resort to insults, simply because you can't rationalise a belief that you hold.

I am not a troll. I am not attacking your religion. I am seeking truth, and questioning sincerely.

Give me a real answer, a rational answer, or none at all.

Bodhisvasti,
This may be the only forum you have come too regarding Islam. That does not mean it is the only forum you have been to regarding the questions of religion and it's application.
You missed my point again.

As for your intelligence and whether you feel you have been slighted? There are many types of intelligence (as you will find when you study psychology)
Finding cures to the suffering of the world is most excellent and commendable.
The maxim "physician heal thyself comes" to mind.
One who would lead others to wholeness must have walked the path themselves otherwise how can they guide?
I have had a rather varied career both academic and spiritual and I can assure you that your rigid reliance on one dimensional logic negates the possibility of seeing the answers you wish to see.

You have not dived into any religion! You have scratched the surface (yet you have felt immersed) All genuine spiritual traditions need to be lived over time. Our ways of seeing the world and our very being take many years to be re-programmed from their habitual patterns.
I will give you an example I was brought up in India, Nepal and Ireland (although I have spent many years in other countries. In my early teens I became very interested in the mystical traditions and spent some time before University living with Christian monastics in the Desert Father tradition and at Shativanam in the tradition of Henri le Saux and Fr Bede Griffith. This was for about 3 years. I returned to the U.K where (I to) studied psychology gaining a degree. I then returned to India where I met a good friend who was a student in the Sufi tradition I lived with him and his teacher in Delhi for approx two years until I had to return to Himachal pradesh as my father had died suddenly.
My half brother is a monk and I lived with him at his monastery for a further two years after the death of Dad. I travelled to Nepal to stay with my fathers family who live just outside Kathmandu where I studied and worked for 5 years until I received an invitation to visit my grandmothers sister who was very elderly in Honk Kong. In Hong Kong I studied both Ch'an Buddhism and Wing Chun the latter with Ip Chun the son of the late master yip man. I met and married my wife after living there for almost 6 years. We returned to England where my wife died after two years of an awful illness. Her father was Black American and her mother was from Vietnam, I returned her ashes to Vietnam and travelled for a while after spending time with her mother and step father. I then entered a monastery in the Forest Tradition for a further five years. I gave back my robes about 10 years ago.
I have maintained a core of application, spiritual exercises that I maintain every day. I continue to receive teachings on a regular basis. I have also studied with other traditions for shorter periods with Nihang Sikhs, Vedantist yogis and others.
I am a qualified hypno-therapist and psychotherapist .
I am in the U.K at the moment selling my house and winding up my business to return to India where I will be spending some time with my Sheikh who has been unwell for some time. After taking my leave of my teacher I will return to my teacher to enter retreat for three years.
I have hardly touched the surface of any of the teachings I have had the good fortune to be given nor have I the wit to understand one tenth of their depth.
I do not think I can explain God, Allah, Dharmakaya, Ek Onkar etc etc through words. Finite vessels by logical definition can not contain the infinite.
If one thinks otherwise one is proving how foolish one is.
Saying is not doing, and posting, reading or a few minor life changes are not walking the path!

If you truly want these answers stop looking outside and as all the mystics tell look inward, surrender the questions and the questioner because beyond these dualities is where your answers lay

Salaam Brother )

huruf

Bodhiavasti,

When you say God knows past present and future and therefore He is guilty, I find it quite cute.
So, if He is guilty what?

Are you going to punish Him? Are you going to get angry with Him? Do you think if you get angry enough He will ask for your forgiveness? Or rather what you want to say is that there is no God, because a true God would not have created this Universe?

Whatever it is, you are going to get what is there, be past, present or future from your point of view. You will have to stick with this universe because for you that is the one there is.

From God's point of view what makes you think that there is present past or future at all? Has He told you that in a chat?

You are restricting God to your own very limited capacity (human capacity). All that runs on time is very limited and it cannot encompass what is not subject to time. This is like trying to play music to a deaf person. You cannot.

And watch your logic when you say that before creating Satan, God knew what he would do. So you suggest He should not create him, but if he doesn't create him, of course He cannot know either beforehand anything about him, because He was not going to create him. If you say He knows the future, He cannot know something which is not the future (nor the past nor the present) simple something that does not exist nor He has created.

Now, Qur'anwise you are completely off. Qur'an does not say hell is eternal, not at all. Qur'an says on the other hand that all humans will return to Him. IlaYHe al maSir, ever. Wherever we are or may have a station or a phase, we will return to Him, not to Hell to Him. Everything rturns to God all the time, because by God there is not time. Time is a dimension, a limitation, God is not subject to that.

In sura Fatiha, we ask God to guide us to the path of ascension, not the path of those who went astray nor the path of those who made Him angry. It doesn't say take us to heaven or hell or anything like that, because in the end there is neither Hell nor heaven, the ultimate destination is God. The difference is the way we get there, going through janna or going through hell.

And by God everything comes into balance everythign with everything else.

I agree with some of those who have written in this thread You think you are putting us up against a wall, but you are only showing your own limitations which are human limitations- to which you stick the label of "logic". By calling your argumentation "logic" I think you are overrating it a lot.

Salaam

amin

Bodhi,

But God already knew before even making Satan, that he would rebel and tempt us, so why make him? He knew before creating Satan, that when he created man, and told the angels to bow down to him, that Satan would refuse and rebel. So why make him? That is predestination, because Satan was bound to do that in the first place, for God knew he would.

whats your point? why make Satan, Man, etc etc..?
I dont see any predestination here? thats creation,

As a creator, say if i created fire and water, for me it doesn't mean fire is bad and water is good, both have roles to serve me, I made water to be bad for fire or viceversa. Satan is one who had taken the role to deceive man and to mislead him from GOD's guidance.

Man is created Superior to Satan ie. Man has the power to overcome the deception, but he sway and move to the evil path, the question is how do we know if the path we go is deception, man has given the power to understand that and correct it using GOD's guidance only and nothing else, in this way he overcomes the deception.

""And Satan will say when the matter is decided ?It was God Who gave you a promise of Truth I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to call you but ye listened to me then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with God. For wrong-doers there must be a grievous penalty.? (14 22)

(Iblis/Satan) said ?O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day they are raised.? (God) said ?Respite is granted thee till the Day of the Time appointed.? (Iblis) said ?O my Lord! Because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong, Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace).? (God) said ?This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me. For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee.? (15 36?42)

Searching Satan we find it everywhere calling us to greed, hate, rumor, corruption, extremism, idol worshiping without reasoning etc. and until the last day he is allowed to do that.

Faithful-Jinn

Faithull,

The environment/surrounding one gets is decided by God,
and whether the guidance reaches us or not is based on our performance of being good, and guidance takes us to further guidance and so on, so this is kind of a continuous process and not a premeditated one. We will either go to hell or heaven is predetermined ones and not our actions which determine whether its Hell or Heaven.

I think 7179 speaks about people who were already sent to hell because they never heeded the good guidance.

You ignore the part where the Qur'an acknowledges that many humans and jinn are made for hell. The issue at hand is predestination. No matter how you try to rationalize it, the Qur'an supports the idea of predestination.

Yes as I said, people err because they started erring already.. and they are in the wrong path, and noone not even prophet can guide them except Allah(god) and that too if they are not changing their ways.

That's nonsense. You can't give the cause of something as its own cause! Use logic of cause and effect!

Some people err
The cause of their erring is that they err

This is an example of deeply flawed logic. The cause for an effect cannot be itself. This is like me saying I got angry and what caused me to get angry was that I was already angry. Nobody has been able to challenge the verses I provided in favor of predestination.

Yes its a test and you want Allah to give a sheet with the correct answers?
so the test is to behave properly and be guided, if you go astray you will go further away, this is the rule.

Yes but the person who is giving the test has already decided who will pass and fail. It is predestined. He guides whom He wills and also wills who goes astray.

Allah's will is the ultimate, He only decides what one has achieved so far and he knows well what one can achieve hereafter.
Now check all the verses you had quoted in your reply.

Wrong. Nobody believes except by the permission of Allah. These verses are clear as day. Please check them again or bring better logic if you want to argue against them.

mmkhan

That is a wrong analogy. This is one that better shows what I mean.

A teacher creates an examination, knowing BEFORE who would and would not pass. There is no better way for them, because that simply is how it is. The teacher knew all before even thinking about the exam, he knew who would pass and who would not, for sure, without doubt. That is predestination, because the Teacher could have created a test that everyone would pass.

But God already knew before even making Satan, that he would rebel and tempt us, so why make him? He knew before creating Satan, that when he created man, and told the angels to bow down to him, that Satan would refuse and rebel. So why make him? That is predestination, because Satan was bound to do that in the first place, for God knew he would.

Why don't some of you try putting yourselves in Gods shoes, and try justifying this then?

None of that describes free will. Just the opposite.

brickwall

You win! It is at least clear to me that knowing and predestining is totally different. Nothing to share with you now giveup

mmKhan

Faithful-Jinn

Dammit I just realized I put the quote tags in my post wrong and it's too late to edit. Hopefully you guys can still see what I'm saying and what the other guy said...

amin

FaithfullJINN,

Your quote,

That's nonsense. You can't give the cause of something as its own cause! Use logic of cause and effect!

But thats what i think the verses say,

At every point of time you have the chance to change ways, I will explain a little different,
Say you have a destination to reach and have a direction to go and started walking on that.. at some point if you deviate little and as you move further the deviation expands.

Buddha's words i think,
"There is a universal law of cause and effect. For every event that occurs, there will follow another event whose existence was caused by the first, and this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according to the exact nature of the first event."

Faithful-Jinn

FaithfullJINN,

Your quote,
But thats what i think the verses say,

At every point of time you have the chance to change ways, I will explain a little different,
Say you have a destination to reach and have a direction to go and started walking on that.. at some point if you deviate little and as you move further the deviation expands.

And here is where the logic becomes flawed.

You cannot say the cause of the initial deviation is a deviation.

The effect itself can't be its own cause. The effect is the deviation. What is its cause? The Qur'an says that Allah is the cause.

Buddha's words i think,
"There is a universal law of cause and effect. For every event that occurs, there will follow another event whose existence was caused by the first, and this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according to the exact nature of the first event."

This does nothing to refute any of my statements nor does it support your own.

In fact this very quote is in favor of my argument.

For every event that occurs Erring
There will follow another event that was caused by the first ?????
And this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according to the exact nature of the first event Paradise or Hellfire.

Now in this model, there is no cause of the going astray that lines up with the verses of the Qur'an. But if you use the Qur'an's own verses I can flip this logic and it actually makes sense.

For every event that occurs Allah's will or decree
There will follow another event that was caused by the first Guidance or Deviation
And this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according to the exact nature of the first event Paradise or Hellfire.

The cause is the will of Allah as outlined by the verses I provided. The effect is that Allah guides whom He wills and causes to stray whom He wills.

The nature of the will of Allah will result in a soul being guided or led astray which then leads to a pleasant or unpleasant afterlife.

amin

Faithfull,

I cant get your point clearly... I think you said Quran says everything is predestined and i refuted it.

As I understand,

The Will of ALLAH is the happenings in this world, ie. everything thats happening, its not predestined?
The will of human, will decide our path and decide whether we are guilty or good, its not predetermined?

I cant see any predestination, i see live determination as per Allah's will )

Guidance is what reaches us with Allah's will.
Guidance is the one which shows us whats good and whats bad, Its a life long learning process.

Faithful-Jinn

Faithfull,

I cant get your point clearly... I think you said Quran says everything is predestined and i refuted it.

You refuted nothing.

You offered neither logic nor a verse from the Qur'an to support your claim.

As I understand,

The Will of ALLAH is the happenings in this world, ie. everything thats happening, its not predestined?
The will of human, will decide our path and decide whether we are guilty or good, its not predetermined?

I cant see any predestination, i see live determination as per Allah's will )

Guidance is what reaches us with Allah's will.
Guidance is the one which shows us whats good and whats bad, Its a life long learning process.

Pickthall
And with Him are the keys of the Invisible. None but He knoweth them. And He knoweth what is in the land and the sea. Not a leaf falleth but He knoweth it, not a grain amid the darkness of the earth, naught of wet or dry but (it is noted) in a clear record. (659)

Are you suggesting that Allah is not omniscient and all-Knowing or that He is limited by our own perception of time?

If not it is clear that everything is predestined by Allah. You have not offered a single verse or a shred of logic to say otherwise. I don't mean to be harsh but I'm waiting for some type of support for your claim.

Do you not understand my previous post and how logically you are incorrect?

Please pay careful attention to the questions I am about to ask you and ponder on them deeply. I will put them in bold because they are of the utmost importance and each specific question should truly be questioned deeply.

Did your God create heaven and hell?

Does your God create the rules of the universe including the criteria on which souls are judged?

Does anything happen that doesn't go according to your God's will?

If you answered yes, yes, and no to these questions then your God is ultimately responsible for everything, including the people He sends to hell.

faruk