The Challenge Yet To Be Met

huruf

Bodhiavasti,

When you say God knows past present and future and therefore He is guilty, I find it quite cute.
So, if He is guilty what?

Are you going to punish Him? Are you going to get angry with Him? Do you think if you get angry enough He will ask for your forgiveness? Or rather what you want to say is that there is no God, because a true God would not have created this Universe?

Whatever it is, you are going to get what is there, be past, present or future from your point of view. You will have to stick with this universe because for you that is the one there is.

From God's point of view what makes you think that there is present past or future at all? Has He told you that in a chat?

You are restricting God to your own very limited capacity (human capacity). All that runs on time is very limited and it cannot encompass what is not subject to time. This is like trying to play music to a deaf person. You cannot.

And watch your logic when you say that before creating Satan, God knew what he would do. So you suggest He should not create him, but if he doesn't create him, of course He cannot know either beforehand anything about him, because He was not going to create him. If you say He knows the future, He cannot know something which is not the future (nor the past nor the present) simple something that does not exist nor He has created.

Now, Qur'anwise you are completely off. Qur'an does not say hell is eternal, not at all. Qur'an says on the other hand that all humans will return to Him. IlaYHe al maSir, ever. Wherever we are or may have a station or a phase, we will return to Him, not to Hell to Him. Everything rturns to God all the time, because by God there is not time. Time is a dimension, a limitation, God is not subject to that.

In sura Fatiha, we ask God to guide us to the path of ascension, not the path of those who went astray nor the path of those who made Him angry. It doesn't say take us to heaven or hell or anything like that, because in the end there is neither Hell nor heaven, the ultimate destination is God. The difference is the way we get there, going through janna or going through hell.

And by God everything comes into balance everythign with everything else.

I agree with some of those who have written in this thread You think you are putting us up against a wall, but you are only showing your own limitations which are human limitations- to which you stick the label of "logic". By calling your argumentation "logic" I think you are overrating it a lot.

Salaam

amin

Bodhi,

But God already knew before even making Satan, that he would rebel and tempt us, so why make him? He knew before creating Satan, that when he created man, and told the angels to bow down to him, that Satan would refuse and rebel. So why make him? That is predestination, because Satan was bound to do that in the first place, for God knew he would.

whats your point? why make Satan, Man, etc etc..?
I dont see any predestination here? thats creation,

As a creator, say if i created fire and water, for me it doesn't mean fire is bad and water is good, both have roles to serve me, I made water to be bad for fire or viceversa. Satan is one who had taken the role to deceive man and to mislead him from GOD's guidance.

Man is created Superior to Satan ie. Man has the power to overcome the deception, but he sway and move to the evil path, the question is how do we know if the path we go is deception, man has given the power to understand that and correct it using GOD's guidance only and nothing else, in this way he overcomes the deception.

""And Satan will say when the matter is decided ?It was God Who gave you a promise of Truth I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to call you but ye listened to me then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with God. For wrong-doers there must be a grievous penalty.? (14 22)

(Iblis/Satan) said ?O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day they are raised.? (God) said ?Respite is granted thee till the Day of the Time appointed.? (Iblis) said ?O my Lord! Because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong, Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace).? (God) said ?This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me. For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee.? (15 36?42)

Searching Satan we find it everywhere calling us to greed, hate, rumor, corruption, extremism, idol worshiping without reasoning etc. and until the last day he is allowed to do that.

Faithful-Jinn

Faithull,

The environment/surrounding one gets is decided by God,
and whether the guidance reaches us or not is based on our performance of being good, and guidance takes us to further guidance and so on, so this is kind of a continuous process and not a premeditated one. We will either go to hell or heaven is predetermined ones and not our actions which determine whether its Hell or Heaven.

I think 7179 speaks about people who were already sent to hell because they never heeded the good guidance.

You ignore the part where the Qur'an acknowledges that many humans and jinn are made for hell. The issue at hand is predestination. No matter how you try to rationalize it, the Qur'an supports the idea of predestination.

Yes as I said, people err because they started erring already.. and they are in the wrong path, and noone not even prophet can guide them except Allah(god) and that too if they are not changing their ways.

That's nonsense. You can't give the cause of something as its own cause! Use logic of cause and effect!

Some people err
The cause of their erring is that they err

This is an example of deeply flawed logic. The cause for an effect cannot be itself. This is like me saying I got angry and what caused me to get angry was that I was already angry. Nobody has been able to challenge the verses I provided in favor of predestination.

Yes its a test and you want Allah to give a sheet with the correct answers?
so the test is to behave properly and be guided, if you go astray you will go further away, this is the rule.

Yes but the person who is giving the test has already decided who will pass and fail. It is predestined. He guides whom He wills and also wills who goes astray.

Allah's will is the ultimate, He only decides what one has achieved so far and he knows well what one can achieve hereafter.
Now check all the verses you had quoted in your reply.

Wrong. Nobody believes except by the permission of Allah. These verses are clear as day. Please check them again or bring better logic if you want to argue against them.

mmkhan

That is a wrong analogy. This is one that better shows what I mean.

A teacher creates an examination, knowing BEFORE who would and would not pass. There is no better way for them, because that simply is how it is. The teacher knew all before even thinking about the exam, he knew who would pass and who would not, for sure, without doubt. That is predestination, because the Teacher could have created a test that everyone would pass.

But God already knew before even making Satan, that he would rebel and tempt us, so why make him? He knew before creating Satan, that when he created man, and told the angels to bow down to him, that Satan would refuse and rebel. So why make him? That is predestination, because Satan was bound to do that in the first place, for God knew he would.

Why don't some of you try putting yourselves in Gods shoes, and try justifying this then?

None of that describes free will. Just the opposite.

brickwall

You win! It is at least clear to me that knowing and predestining is totally different. Nothing to share with you now giveup

mmKhan

Faithful-Jinn

Dammit I just realized I put the quote tags in my post wrong and it's too late to edit. Hopefully you guys can still see what I'm saying and what the other guy said...

amin

FaithfullJINN,

Your quote,

That's nonsense. You can't give the cause of something as its own cause! Use logic of cause and effect!

But thats what i think the verses say,

At every point of time you have the chance to change ways, I will explain a little different,
Say you have a destination to reach and have a direction to go and started walking on that.. at some point if you deviate little and as you move further the deviation expands.

Buddha's words i think,
"There is a universal law of cause and effect. For every event that occurs, there will follow another event whose existence was caused by the first, and this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according to the exact nature of the first event."

Faithful-Jinn

FaithfullJINN,

Your quote,
But thats what i think the verses say,

At every point of time you have the chance to change ways, I will explain a little different,
Say you have a destination to reach and have a direction to go and started walking on that.. at some point if you deviate little and as you move further the deviation expands.

And here is where the logic becomes flawed.

You cannot say the cause of the initial deviation is a deviation.

The effect itself can't be its own cause. The effect is the deviation. What is its cause? The Qur'an says that Allah is the cause.

Buddha's words i think,
"There is a universal law of cause and effect. For every event that occurs, there will follow another event whose existence was caused by the first, and this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according to the exact nature of the first event."

This does nothing to refute any of my statements nor does it support your own.

In fact this very quote is in favor of my argument.

For every event that occurs Erring
There will follow another event that was caused by the first ?????
And this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according to the exact nature of the first event Paradise or Hellfire.

Now in this model, there is no cause of the going astray that lines up with the verses of the Qur'an. But if you use the Qur'an's own verses I can flip this logic and it actually makes sense.

For every event that occurs Allah's will or decree
There will follow another event that was caused by the first Guidance or Deviation
And this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according to the exact nature of the first event Paradise or Hellfire.

The cause is the will of Allah as outlined by the verses I provided. The effect is that Allah guides whom He wills and causes to stray whom He wills.

The nature of the will of Allah will result in a soul being guided or led astray which then leads to a pleasant or unpleasant afterlife.

amin

Faithfull,

I cant get your point clearly... I think you said Quran says everything is predestined and i refuted it.

As I understand,

The Will of ALLAH is the happenings in this world, ie. everything thats happening, its not predestined?
The will of human, will decide our path and decide whether we are guilty or good, its not predetermined?

I cant see any predestination, i see live determination as per Allah's will )

Guidance is what reaches us with Allah's will.
Guidance is the one which shows us whats good and whats bad, Its a life long learning process.

Faithful-Jinn

Faithfull,

I cant get your point clearly... I think you said Quran says everything is predestined and i refuted it.

You refuted nothing.

You offered neither logic nor a verse from the Qur'an to support your claim.

As I understand,

The Will of ALLAH is the happenings in this world, ie. everything thats happening, its not predestined?
The will of human, will decide our path and decide whether we are guilty or good, its not predetermined?

I cant see any predestination, i see live determination as per Allah's will )

Guidance is what reaches us with Allah's will.
Guidance is the one which shows us whats good and whats bad, Its a life long learning process.

Pickthall
And with Him are the keys of the Invisible. None but He knoweth them. And He knoweth what is in the land and the sea. Not a leaf falleth but He knoweth it, not a grain amid the darkness of the earth, naught of wet or dry but (it is noted) in a clear record. (659)

Are you suggesting that Allah is not omniscient and all-Knowing or that He is limited by our own perception of time?

If not it is clear that everything is predestined by Allah. You have not offered a single verse or a shred of logic to say otherwise. I don't mean to be harsh but I'm waiting for some type of support for your claim.

Do you not understand my previous post and how logically you are incorrect?

Please pay careful attention to the questions I am about to ask you and ponder on them deeply. I will put them in bold because they are of the utmost importance and each specific question should truly be questioned deeply.

Did your God create heaven and hell?

Does your God create the rules of the universe including the criteria on which souls are judged?

Does anything happen that doesn't go according to your God's will?

If you answered yes, yes, and no to these questions then your God is ultimately responsible for everything, including the people He sends to hell.

faruk