The Challenge Yet To Be Met
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Faithfull,
I cant get your point clearly... I think you said Quran says everything is predestined and i refuted it.
You refuted nothing.
You offered neither logic nor a verse from the Qur'an to support your claim.
As I understand,
The Will of ALLAH is the happenings in this world, ie. everything thats happening, its not predestined?
The will of human, will decide our path and decide whether we are guilty or good, its not predetermined?I cant see any predestination, i see live determination as per Allah's will )
Guidance is what reaches us with Allah's will.
Guidance is the one which shows us whats good and whats bad, Its a life long learning process.Pickthall
And with Him are the keys of the Invisible. None but He knoweth them. And He knoweth what is in the land and the sea. Not a leaf falleth but He knoweth it, not a grain amid the darkness of the earth, naught of wet or dry but (it is noted) in a clear record. (659)Are you suggesting that Allah is not omniscient and all-Knowing or that He is limited by our own perception of time?
If not it is clear that everything is predestined by Allah. You have not offered a single verse or a shred of logic to say otherwise. I don't mean to be harsh but I'm waiting for some type of support for your claim.
Do you not understand my previous post and how logically you are incorrect?
Please pay careful attention to the questions I am about to ask you and ponder on them deeply. I will put them in bold because they are of the utmost importance and each specific question should truly be questioned deeply.
Did your God create heaven and hell?
Does your God create the rules of the universe including the criteria on which souls are judged?
Does anything happen that doesn't go according to your God's will?
If you answered yes, yes, and no to these questions then your God is ultimately responsible for everything, including the people He sends to hell.
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Bodhiavasti,
When you say God knows past present and future and therefore He is guilty, I find it quite cute.
So, if He is guilty what?Are you going to punish Him? Are you going to get angry with Him? Do you think if you get angry enough He will ask for your forgiveness? Or rather what you want to say is that there is no God, because a true God would not have created this Universe?
Whatever it is, you are going to get what is there, be past, present or future from your point of view. You will have to stick with this universe because for you that is the one there is.
From God's point of view what makes you think that there is present past or future at all? Has He told you that in a chat?
You are restricting God to your own very limited capacity (human capacity). All that runs on time is very limited and it cannot encompass what is not subject to time. This is like trying to play music to a deaf person. You cannot.
And watch your logic when you say that before creating Satan, God knew what he would do. So you suggest He should not create him, but if he doesn't create him, of course He cannot know either beforehand anything about him, because He was not going to create him. If you say He knows the future, He cannot know something which is not the future (nor the past nor the present) simple something that does not exist nor He has created.
Now, Qur'anwise you are completely off. Qur'an does not say hell is eternal, not at all. Qur'an says on the other hand that all humans will return to Him. IlaYHe al maSir, ever. Wherever we are or may have a station or a phase, we will return to Him, not to Hell to Him. Everything rturns to God all the time, because by God there is not time. Time is a dimension, a limitation, God is not subject to that.
In sura Fatiha, we ask God to guide us to the path of ascension, not the path of those who went astray nor the path of those who made Him angry. It doesn't say take us to heaven or hell or anything like that, because in the end there is neither Hell nor heaven, the ultimate destination is God. The difference is the way we get there, going through janna or going through hell.
And by God everything comes into balance everythign with everything else.
I agree with some of those who have written in this thread You think you are putting us up against a wall, but you are only showing your own limitations which are human limitations- to which you stick the label of "logic". By calling your argumentation "logic" I think you are overrating it a lot.
Salaam
bravo bravo Very good answer to Bodhisvasti,s challenge. Waiting for Bodhisvasti,s reply.
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Viktor Frankl in his book ?Man?s Search for Meaning? describes spending years in Nazi death camps where all the familiar goals in life are snatched away and what remains is the last of human freedoms ? ?the ability to choose one?s attitude in a given set of circumstances.?
We had a similar discussion years ago; one of the girls in my family said it?s like playing chess with God who knows your every move and at the same time you are free to choose your move as you will.
There are almost infinite possibilities of different chess games (decisions or paths in life) 10^120 power which is more than twice the theorized sub-atomic particles (quarks, electrons, etc.) in the known universe.
I asked if God knows, is there choice; if one does evil, is it their fault if God willed it?
Her sister checkmated with ?God does not will someone to do evil, it?s their choice!?
Everything starts with attitude and God transcends time-space with all events past, present, and future known in a single moment whereas relative to our point of view it?s eternity and people too can transcend time-space to recall future events as in deja-vu dreams (I?m very familiar with these) or in near death experiences their lives flash in an instant and similar flash replay phenomenon happens on the last day.
1713 and every soul the fasten to it its fortune in its neck and We will bring forth to it day the resurrection a book will meet it wide open/unrolled
1714 read your book sufficient yourself the day to you reckoner -
Faithfull,
You refuted nothing.
You offered neither logic nor a verse from the Qur'an to support your claim.
Some posts before, you gave multiple verses and each of those verses tells the same for me,
THERE IS NO PREDETERMINATION OF HELL OR HEAVEN,
may you are seeing it different.These are my answers,
Did your God create heaven and hell? (YES)
Does your God create the rules of the universe including the criteria on which souls are judged? (YES)
Does anything happen that doesn't go according to your God's will? (YES, our WILL)
Those are my answers, for the last answer I believe its our our will
"We have shown man the path of truth and the path of falsehood; he may choose either the path of guidance or choose the path of ingratitude." (763)
That We, We guided him the way/path , either (he is) thankful/grateful and either (an insistent) disbeliever.
I will stop with this.
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Faithfull,
Some posts before, you gave multiple verses and each of those verses tells the same for me,
THERE IS NO PREDETERMINATION OF HELL OR HEAVEN,
may you are seeing it different.Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided for they are heedless (of warning).(7179)
?Those whom Allah wills to guide, He opens their breast to Islam; Those whom He wills to leave straying, - he makes their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies thus does Allah lay abomination on those who refuse to believe.? S. 6125
?Allah leads astray whomsoever He will and guides whomsoever he will.? S. 144
?Allah hath (now) revealed the fairest of statements, a Scripture consistent, (wherein promises of reward are) paired (with threats of punishment), whereat doth creep the flesh of those who fear their Lord, so that their flesh and their hearts soften to Allah?s reminder. Such is Allah?s guidance, wherewith He guideth whom He will. And him whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide.? S. 3923
Dispute these verses. I have Qur'anic evidence supporting my claim. Until you can explain every single verse I'm providing you have disproved absolutely nothing. They are clear verses about the will of Allah and how Allah is the one who guides people AND who leads people astray. You have done NOTHING to dispute these verses.
At best all you can do is provide a contradictory verse. I'm still waiting for someone to dispute the Qur'anic evidence I provided.
Does anything happen that doesn't go according to your God's will? (YES, our WILL)
I just provided verses that suggest otherwise. Not only do people only believe by Allah's permission but they only go astray by Allah's permission. Furthermore if Allah is omniscient then everything you will do is already written in a clear book with Allah.
If something happens that doesn't go according to your God's will then he is not omniscient and omnipotent.
Those are my answers, for the last answer I believe its our our will
This claim is weak because you have only one verse to provide that we humans have a choice. I have literally provided dozens of verses proving otherwise and all you can say is what "you believe". What evidence can you provide for your beliefs? I am providing tens of verses that directly go against what "you believe" and you need to counter every single one of them with a logical explanation for me to give your argument any validation.
"We have shown man the path of truth and the path of falsehood; he may choose either the path of guidance or choose the path of ingratitude." (763)
This is the only single verse you have provided that goes against my point. I have provided several verses that support predestination. The wording is so clear that you cannot dispute it. Allah guides whom He wills and leads astray whom He wills.
You CANNOT dispute that sentence. It is simply to clear and precise. Allah is directly responsible for who is guided and who goes astray. If Allah is omniscient and omnipotent then you have no free will and it only an illusion. If you have freewill then Allah is neither all-powerful, nor is he all-knowing.
That We, We guided him the way/path , either (he is) thankful/grateful and either (an insistent) disbeliever.
I have provided several verses which you have not addressed. But even this verse actually works against you. Allah says "We guided him'. Please explain how exactly it is a choice if Allah is the one doing the guiding.
?This is an admonition Whosoever will, let him take a (straight) Path to his Lord. But ye will not, except as Allah wills; for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom.? S. 7629-30
?Unto whomsoever of you willeth to walk straight. And ye will not, unless (it be) that Allah willeth, the Lord of Creation.? S. 8128-29
Guidance is not possible UNLESS Allah wills it! This is so clear here that you must admit the Qur'an obviously supports predestination.
I will stop with this.
Please continue. I'm still waiting for someone to counter my argument. So far you're the only one honestly attempting to do so.
These verses don't nullify my argument at all. You have to logically explain how my verses fail to support my point which you and everyone else in this topic have failed to do.
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Peace Faithful Jinn.
We are absolutely free to believe or disbelieve in God.
It is Also God's will that we will (1829, 2557, 7319, 7437, 7629, 7839, 8012). Or won t.
Predestination, therefore, is a fact as far as God is concerned, not as far as we are concerned.
Even before we were born into this world, God knew which souls are good and which souls are evil. But when we are born we go through our life making that choice ourselves,
When GOD says He knows, It means HE knows who is going to make which choice. You still have to go on in your life and make your own choices/ decisions.
SO in summary GOD guides those who choose to be guided ( HE knows who they are but they make that decision themselves) and GOD leads astray those who choose not to be guided ( He knows who they are, but they make that decision themselves).
GOD does not force anyone to make a choice. We put ourselves , by our choice, in Heaven or Hell.
Because GOD knows that, IT does not make any difference as far as we are concerned.
Peace.
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Peace Faithful-Jinn,
Your Quranic quotes are correct, It is your conclusion that is not.
We have free will as far as we are concerned but for God the matter has already been settled
We live in a time contrained reality and God does not!What a beautiful surah this is Faithful-Jinn, check it out!
"How can you stand that which you do not comprehend?"
He said, "You will find me, GOD willing, patient. I will not disobey any command you give me."
He said, "If you follow me, then you shall not ask me about anything, unless I choose to tell you about it."
So they went. When they boarded a ship, he bore a hole in it. He said, "Did you bore a hole in it to drown its people? You have committed something terrible."
He said, "Did I not say that you cannot stand to be with me?"
He said, "I am sorry. Do not punish me for my forgetfulness; do not be too harsh with me."
So they went. When they met a young boy, he killed him. He said, "Why did you kill such an innocent soul, who did not kill another soul? You have committed something horrendous."
He said, "Did I not tell you that you cannot stand to be with me?"
He said, "If I ask you about anything else, then do not keep me with you. You have seen enough apologies from me."
So they went. When they reached a certain community, they asked the people for food, but they refused to host them. Soon, they found a wall about to collapse, and he fixed it. He said, "You could have demanded a wage for that!"
He said, "Now we have to part company. But I will explain to you everything you could not stand.
"As for the ship, it belonged to poor fishermen, and I wanted to render it defective. There was a king coming after them, who was confiscating every ship, forcibly.
"As for the boy, his parents were good believers, and we saw that he was going to burden them with his transgression and disbelief.*
"We willed that your Lord substitute in his place another son; one who is better in righteousness and kindness.
"As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city. Under it, there was a treasure that belonged to them. Because their father was a righteous man, your Lord wanted them to grow up and attain full strength, then extract their treasure. Such is mercy from your Lord. I did none of that of my own volition. This is the explanation of the things you could not stand."So you see? our will encompassed by God's will.
Peace O0
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How come no one bothered to check out this link mentioned previously?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8719.msg28485#msg28485It's talking about the system we have. The outcomes are the things predetermined, but our lives are not. Our choices are free, but God knows very well which direction leads to whichever path.
This topic has been covered on this site before. Please read both of these articles.
http//www.free-minds.org/free-choice
http//www.free-minds.org/trustAfter reading the things in these three links, if you still doubt or have questions, you need to stop asking people on this forum for the answer. We simply do not have the power to guide you. If you are genuinely searching for the truth, you will get it. But if you are asking in order to cement whatever belief you currently have, then you'll just be satisfied with whatever belief that is. It really, and truly, is up to you. But you have to at least try believing that and testing that theory for yourself rather than just saying "what if" and getting pissed at everyone else's comments that don't agree with yours, or don't provide the miracle explanation you're looking for. Give yourself time to think, study, analyze. Don't just criticize and pout. Ask God for yourself. Don't blow Him off and then blame Him for your shortcomings.
Peace.
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salam,
Q223 And yet among men there are such as dispute about Allah, without knowledge,....
Q228 And yet, among men there is many a one that argues about God without having any knowledge , without any guidance, and without any light-giving revelation.
I think our knowledge of God is very limited by which God wants us to know Him and not
by what we want to know. -
Reading the articles linked above was far too involved and consisted in a huge amount of text without any structure or logics, so I abandoned it. Without wanting to sound arrogant there is a much easier way of looking at the problem.
I liked the way that "neo" explained it using quantum states, but why not use an everyday example?Imagine the following scenario I go to the sports shop to buy running shoes, I can choose between the ones with a red stripe or with a blue stripe.
I choose the ones with a red stripe.
My wife joins me in the shop and tells me the blue striped ones look better.
I change my mind and take the ones with the blue stripe.What just happened? I changed my mind. I decided on something and then went back and took a different decision.
How does this relate to omniscience? Well, if a super-natural entity and creator would know what will happen, would that creator know I will eventually take the shoes with the blue stripe? If it's omniscient, yes, of course.
But if that omniscient creator god knows that I will take the running shoes with the blue stripe, can I defy my wife's input and buy the shoes with the red stripe anyway?
Yes I have free will, but god is not omniscient.
No god is omniscient, but I don't have free will. -
salam,
The problem is that you've equate omniscient with foreknowledge/or predestined.
Foreknowledge/predestined indicate that God has a hand in deciding the outcome therefore
no free will.
The word Alim/Alimun translated to knowledge/aware/know among others.
Not Foreknowledge/or predestined. -
salam,
The problem is that you've equate omniscient with foreknowledge/or predestined.
Foreknowledge/predestined indicate that God has a hand in deciding the outcome therefore
no free will.
The word Alim/Alimun translated to knowledge/aware/know among others.
Not Foreknowledge/or predestined.Does that mean that god is not aware of the future and the knowledge stops with our present here on Earth?
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Does that mean that god is not aware of the future and the knowledge stops with our present here on Earth?
Of course He knows everything including the future. That's why He's God.
However when we try to understand how God acquired those knowledge then we come up with the phrases like "Foreknowledge" and "Predestination" inorder to make sense to our reasoning.In another word, we created an environment, a human environment and we put God in that environment and we expect God to conform to that environment.
God operates from a different dimension then we human. God is not bound by what He creates.
God is free of His creation. One of the creation of God is, Time. Time does not apply to the realm
of the Divine. Therefore God's dimension is timeless.Where else human understand their acts based on the dimension of time. It is a linear though process.
Hence we have the Past, Present and Future. Human beings know nothing if time is not an included factor.
"Foreknowledge" and "Predestination" are time based phrases therefore it does not apply in God's dimension. -
Of course He knows everything including the future. That's why He's God.
However when we try to understand how God acquired those knowledge then we come up with the phrases like "Foreknowledge" and "Predestination" inorder to make sense to our reasoning.In another word, we created an environment, a human environment and we put God in that environment and we expect God to conform to that environment.
God operates from a different dimension then we human. God is not bound by what He creates. God is free of His creation. One of the creation of God is, Time. Time does not apply to the realm of the Divine. Therefore God's dimension is timeless.
Where else human understand their acts based on the dimension of time. It is a linear though process. Hence we have the Past, Present and Future. Human beings know nothing if time is not an included factor.
"Foreknowledge" and "Predestination" are time based phrases therefore it does not apply in God's dimension.If I apply your opinion to my analogy, it means that this omniscience being knew in advance I was going to change my mind. That means there is no free will.
Also, you make some huge assertions regarding the attributes of your god. How do you know "God operates from a different dimension then we human"?
How do you know "God is not bound by what He creates"?
How do you know "God is free of His creation"?
How do you know "One of the creation of God is Time"?
How do you know "Time does not apply to the realm of the Divine"?
What does all this mean? How can a divine being exist and suddenly feel the urge to create angels, humans and at least one Universe and do this while in a different dimension and continuum? -
I had no idea this would be up so long. I skimmed through a lot of what has been said so far. And there seems to be one very common answer, God is outside of time. The challenge still remains unchallenged though, even if you answer with that. Think about it...
God knows all. Everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen. On our planet, in our universe, and in this dimension. This can't be neglected when thinking about creation.
So God is outside of our dimension, outside of time. That still doesn't account for the point of creation. I mean, put yourself in Gods shoes...
There is nothing you can create that you don't already know the outcome of. So why create anything at all, when everything has basically already been created, and played out in your mind?
Better yet, why create this particular version of our universe, full of so much suffering? Mortality, rape, murder, theft, exploitation, and much more. This makes no sense, when you already know the outcome of allowing such things in the universe.
Why not create a universe where we are all already in tune to God. Where we live forever. Where the word disease doesn't even exist, simply because there is none. Where children aren't being raped and sold off to be sex slaves. Where murder is unknown, because no one can die, or even think of it.
If you were in Gods shoes, and created such a horrible universe, would that not make you evil? The answer is a blunt, yes. It would. So why don't you put the God of the Quran in that place of evil, when he did just that. Created evil, when he did not have to. There is no test, there can't be. God already knows everything that will happen, before it has happened. God already knows who passes, and who fails. Why? Because God made it so, predestined it so. It must be predestination, because God knew all of this, and what is to come, would happen, before he even began creation. God knew before making Iblis, that he would not bow to man, and cause so much chaos.
If we had the power that God is assumed to have in the Quran, and created this universe by choice, we would call ourselves evil. Why don't we treat Allah the same?
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Welcome back.
Someone will also be saying "welcome back" to you on Resurrection day.
Anyway, what I am saying ,it will stay unchallenged until the day of judgement, Why?
Because if all was clear, the test /this life will be over! God and the Angels would come down and all will be revealed!
The best we can do now is believe God and His message and trust that He knows what He is doing /has done.
Peace.
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Peace,
Life is like a card game. God is the dealer, he deals everyone a hand, how you play is up to you.
You cannot ask this dealer what he is doing or why or how he is dealing
Have they found gods on earth who can create?
If there were in them (the heavens and the earth) other gods beside GOD, there would have been chaos. Glory be to GOD; the Lord with absolute authority. He is high above their claims.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questionedPeace O0
The key to monotheism can be found in the garden of eden
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Peace,
Life is like a card game. God is the dealer, he deals everyone a hand, how you play is up to you.
You cannot ask this dealer what he is doing or why or how he is dealing
Have they found gods on earth who can create?
If there were in them (the heavens and the earth) other gods beside GOD, there would have been chaos. Glory be to GOD; the Lord with absolute authority. He is high above their claims.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questionedPeace O0
The key to monotheism can be found in the garden of eden
I just had to write that I appreciate very much your post and the quotation from the Qur'an!
It is amazing how many times we can read the Qur'an and it is always fresh and new, and we always find something to awake our attention previously somehow duly unnoticed.
As someone once said, the Qur'an is always updated, it is we who need constant updatingAnd, you know @hawkninetynine, I like your signature phrase very much!
Best regards.
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Assalamu Alaykum, everyone.
I am not a hater, I am not trying to attack your religion. Only trying to truly understand. One thing has kept me from believing in god all these years. And I bring it to you as a challenge, not to end your faith, but to renew my own. Please help me in this.
According to the Quran. God knows all. The past, present, and future, everything. It is clear. There is no getting out of it.
What does this mean you ask? It means everything is automatically pre-determined, no matter what. We have no real choice.
God made Satan, knowing before he made him, all that he would do, meaning God pre-determined Satan, because God did not have to make him that way, knowing how he would end up.
God made a world of suffering, knowing all that would happen, before Creation, making everything pre-determined. God did not have to make a world full of suffering, he made the choice to. Did he have to? No.
Creation is pointless, when you are an all knowing God, because you know all, no matter what.
To elaborate, take a piece of paper, and put it on your desk. Now you are about to scratch a line onto the paper with a pencil. Wherever you scratch, that is the Creation. Each possible line you could make is a different Creation. You know what each Creation would be, everything that happens in it. God just happened to make a scratch, say, on the rim of the upper right corner, making the Universe as we know it today, everything that happened in the past, that is happening now, and that will happen, God knows of.
That means God made a world full of suffering. God made Hell, knowing beforehand, that if he made that certain scratch, those people that deserve it, were already going to get it. That means before God made Lucifer, he knew that he would rebel, and tempt us. That means Creation is a movie directed by God, a movie that is the same as he knew it would be, full of suffering, and an eternity of Hell for those who would deserve it, but they only deserve it, because God determined it so by making the world as it is. If he had scratched just a little different on that piece of paper, that person instead of choosing to be a believer and a good person, would have been an unbeliever and a bad person, thereby making their destiny Hell, a place where you are burned forever, and your drink is boiling water.
To create evil, knowing what would happen beforehand, makes you evil. Do we not condemn those on Earth to prison for evil deeds, for making the choice of creating those evil situations? Why is not God condemned then, for making Evil?
Can anyone meet this challenge and give me peace of mind, so that I may return to being a Muslim?Peace,
Your challenge is easily met.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned.
God does what he wants to do, you don't have to understand, or like or condon what he does
or has done or will do. You can wring you hands, cry foul, get upset, pout, sulk, what we do, think
cannot change what God has decreed, get used to it. Many people question God but are afraid to question
certain humans! This is not your creation! You may not like the rules but so what. Two things we can do is ask God for mercy and guidance.He is the One GOD; there is no other god besides Him. Knower of all secrets and declarations. He is the Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
He is the One GOD; there is no other god besides Him. The King, the Most Sacred, the Peace, the Most Faithful, the Supreme, the Almighty, the Most Powerful, the Most Dignified. GOD be glorified; far above having partners.
He is the One GOD; the Creator, the Initiator, the Designer. To Him belong the most beautiful names. Glorifying Him is everything in the heavens and the earth. He is the Almighty, Most Wise.Peace O0
The secret to monotheism is in the garden of eden