hajj / feast / debate
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Peace brother Noshirk,
Sorry but I am not agree for the comparison with 2226. In verse 2226 it is clearly stipulated to wait for 4 ashor after the decision to abstain from wives. It is clear also that we don?t have to wait for 4 ashor every year.
Please read all the way from 2226 to 2228. According to your logic a woman in 2228 doesn't have to wait for 3 menstuations and can get married in between menstruations. The main point is that waiting 4 full-moons, like waiting 3 menstruations doesn't mean that you don't have to wait between the full-moon or menstruation events.
It is not the case for verse 95. I don?t see any number four and any clear block of consecutive ashor.
In verse 2194; 2217, 52, 597 , Quran used the general expression of ?shahr haram? and not ?ashor haram?. This can be interpreted as if shahr haram was an institution and not block of ashor. Why mention shar haram individually ?
92; 9-5; 9-36 are verses where ashor haram, in plural form, are mentioned. I can read them without viewing a consecutive block of months.You can't just read 95 in isolation. Please see 936 where it is clearly stated that the inviolable full-moons are 4. As for non-consecutive this is already refuted by 95 and the fact that the waiting period for menstruations is counted in the same way as full-moons according to 2226-2228. Just read the whole thing all the way through 2228.
Here are verses where qadr appear with sense of measure.
15-21,15-60,22-74,23-18,25-2,34-18,41-10,42-27,43-11,54-12,54-49,65-3,73-20,76-16,77-22,77-23
In 7320 we find the expression ?God measures (Youkaddirou) the night and the day?
In 4110, we find the expression 4 equivalent periodsThe meaning is ALWAYS "measure" and not "equivalence". 4110 doesn't talk about equivalent periods. It talks about measuring its sustenance (aqwateha). As an Arabic speaker you should know the difference between "aqwat" (sustenance) and "awqat" (time periods).
sorry, but in 17-12, i don't see any mention of shortest night or longer day.
How else would you measure the number of years using day and night? Please answer. You will not be able to answer because it is impossible except by using the shortest/longest night/day.
I saw on the web that there is other ways to identify equinoxes without having to measure the length of night and length of day.
This has nothing to do with the great reading and is irrelevant since 1712 talks specifically about using the day and night to know the number of years.
Notice also that I have read no good argument that prove that shahr ramadhan would be the first or the last or in the middle of the block of 4 ashor. There is no proof that the 4 month are the harvest in the year.
Good arguments were presented many times on the following thread. Please read it carefully
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0
Notice also that arguments about hunting and harvest months doesn?t hold for south hemisphere. Equinoxes are always equinoxes anywhere in the planet while solstices are opposites in the south and north hemisphere
Who said that the hunting and harvest have to be the same in both hemispheres?? This is normal since wild life follows different timing in the Southern and Northern hemispheres so the hunting restriction MUST be different too.
OK. It is a good argument. I have no proof that quran was revealed in 610.
Who Knows ? perhaps autum equinox of the good year match full moon ? 606 for example ?
I am interested in knowing if you have a theory about the good year and why you think that 610 is suspect.
Year 610 is the main reason why I thinked about new moon.
I agree that 36-39 seems to indicate that good counting should begin with full moon.
2-189 can then be reinterpreted, in terms of wrong doing, by the fact that jews begins theirs months with new moon while maintaining feasts during full moon.The so-called Islamic chronolgy starts with the birth of the prophet in the year of Abraha's expedition. This is given by historians as the year 575CE. However, physical evidence in the form of an inscription commemorating Abaraha's expedition to Arabia gives the date of the expedition as 552CE. This is also evident in Hadiths where many of the narrators are alleged to have lived well over 100 years. Their age had to be increased and probably the period where the prophet lived had to be moved forward so as to make them overlap. Also, a Roman manuscript states that the Arab kingdom was formed and started invading the Roman teritories in the year 620CE and it correlates the date with other events. This is a dozen years before Islamic chronology and at the time according to Islamic chrnology the prophet hasn't even emigrated yet!
So we know 100% that the years of Islamic chronology are problematic. What the actual year of revelation was doesn't matter.
OK Full moon is more visible than new moon. I agree that it seems more correct.
The main argument for "New moon theory", as nowadays practiced, was year 610.The year 610 is certainly problematic. On the other hand, everyone agrees that witnessing the full-moon is easier and also this is further confirmed by Lisan AlArab where the meaning of "shahr" as full-moon is clearly given.
However, 2203 can be interpreted as big precision is not required. 2 days before or after, no matter.
Christmas was not a pagan Roman fertility goddess birthday. Please see the link i gave you.
Please read http//persia.edublogs.org/files/2009/03/article-christmas-is-an-old-tradtion-from-persia-a.pdf
I told you that jesus in not issa for me.
Now, if Hajj is feast then why we have 4 in quran and only 3 in ?Judaism?.
Where is the last one ?
My theory, and I told you that it is more an intuition than a theory, is that the forth feast was erased from memory of jews at the same time they erased the true issa from their memory.
It is why I think that the 4 th missing feast is related to the true Isaa.
I mentioned already that, for me, the true issa is now known as Yeshua Bin Nun.
Yeshua was ?the valet?, the ?spiritual son? and the successor of Moses.
He delivered the land of Firaoun and installed bani Israel in it.
Yeshua mean jesus, Bin is the feminine of Ben and Nun mean Nun (devoted women).
I think that Issa/Yeshua is the son of Meriem, the prophetess and sister of Moses and the daughter of imran, the father of Moses.
So I think that Christmas is the feast of the true issa, whose story inspired many mythologies of son of god and virgin (mithra who was worhipped by Romans and imported from Persia, Horus, Juspiter, Jesus of Nazareth, and others?)The Romans may have very well borrowed it from the Persians and then the Christians in turn borrowed it from the Romans. In all of the ancient world, fertility goddesses/gods were worshipped under different names but they shared some common traits such as the celebration of their birth at the time of the winter solstice (the birth of the sun since the sun is the most prominent symbol of fertility in paganism).
Peace,
Ayman
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How else would you measure the number of years using day and night? Please answer. You will not be able to answer because it is impossible except by using the shortest/longest night/day.
Peace ayman,
Observe daily sunset/sunrise which have numerous reference points to count the years.
http//www.astronomynotes.com/nakedeye/sunset-position.png
http//www.stonehengetours.com/Simmer-solstice/equinox-Stonehenge.jpg
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Peace Noon,
Observe daily sunset/sunrise which have numerous reference points to count the years.
Same as when you use the length of the day/night, the position at the equinoxes can't be used to count the number of years as per 1712 since it occurs twice in the year. Again, you can only use one of the solstices to count the years.
Peace,
Ayman
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salam
When you face north as indicated by polar star, day of equinox is exactly when sunrise occurs exactly from east.
Photo given by Noon waalqalami shows how ancient people can easily determine aquinox by aligning stones to north.
Equinox is when sunrise occurs exactly like in the photoNo need to even measure time. Years can be easily calculated.
it is also a qadar (measure in sense of middle) between the two extreme positions from wich sunrise occurs during the year.
it is the middle of Macharek
375 The Lord of the heavens and the earth, and what lies between them, and the Lord of the Machariq.
7040 So I do swear by the Lord of machariq wa magharib, that We are able.Returning back to block of consecutive months. I read all arguments and i am not convinced.
Consecutive months theory have also to explain why this pratice is absent from "judaim" and "christianism"Thank you brother ayman for informations about year 610.
Peace
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Peace,
shr cycle (3412 and to Solomon the wind its early shr cycle and its late shr cycle)
al-shr the cycleshryn two cycles
ashr cycles (prefix alif denotes plural)
al-ashr the cyclesshra cycle for (trailing alif denotes for/to e.g. 936 for 12 cycles)
936 indeed count al-shwr (what does ?wa? signify ? the cycle time-length?)
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peace Ayman,
Can you clarify if you have looked into other alternative meanings for shahr, e.g. lunar/moon-cycle or others. If so, and you opted for "full-moon" as it was the strongest in terms of evidence, can you briefly give us the main problems you found with other meanings?
I personally have not researched it in detail, but I think this info will be helpful.
Thanks.
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shr cycle (3412 and to Solomon the wind its early shr cycle and its late shr cycle)
al-shr the cycle
shryn two cycles
ashr cycles (prefix alif denotes plural)
al-ashr the cycles
shra cycle for (trailing alif denotes for/to e.g. 936 for 12 cycles)
936 indeed count al-shwr (what does ?wa? signify ? the cycle time-length?)In all those instances the meaning can be "full-moon". Just to illustrate my point, one can say "I will see you in two full-moons".
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Can you clarify if you have looked into other alternative meanings for shahr, e.g. lunar/moon-cycle or others. If so, and you opted for "full-moon" as it was the strongest in terms of evidence, can you briefly give us the main problems you found with other meanings?
I personally have not researched it in detail, but I think this info will be helpful.I have considered the alternatives and found full-moon to be the strongest. Here are some questions to ask
How can one witness a "lunar cycle"?
How can one count 12 lunar cycles in a year while keeping in line with the solar year as per 1712?
Is a woman's period as it is talked about in the same way as "shahr" in 2226-228 a cycle or an event? How does one count the woman's periods?
Etc. Etc. Etc.
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In all those instances the meaning can be "full-moon". Just to illustrate my point, one can say "I will see you in two full-moons".
Peace ayman; does this really make any sense to you?
3412 and to Solomon the wind its early full-moon and its late full-moonOr is it talking about the morning and evening tide/cycle?
3412 and to Solomon the wind its early cycle and its late cycleI have considered the alternatives and found full-moon to be the strongest. Here are some questions to ask
How can one witness a "lunar cycle"?
A cycle does not necessarily have to be lunar-cycle; depends on context and how does one fast it?
2185 ? so from shahida from you the full-moon so he should fast it (i.e. the full-moon)?How can one count 12 lunar cycles in a year while keeping in line with the solar year as per 1712?
First ask what the "wa" in word exactly means? 936 indeed count al-shwr
Is a woman's period as it is talked about in the same way as "shahr" in 2226-228 a cycle or an event? How does one count the woman's periods?
It could be wait four menstrual cycles; depends on each woman and not wait four full-moons, use context ...
2226 to those who forswear from their women waiting four cycles so if they return so indeed The God Forgiving Merciful
2227 and if determine the divorce so indeed The God Hearing Knowing
2228 and the divorced women should wait by themselves three menstrual periods... -
Peace ayman; does this really make any sense to you?
3412 and to Solomon the wind its early full-moon and its late full-moon
Or is it talking about the morning and evening tide/cycle?
3412 and to Solomon the wind its early cycle and its late cycleThe passage talks about the wind and not morning and evening tides. The winds are neither affected by the lunar cycle or the full-moon. So this is a special capability that the god gave to Solomon and therefore full-moon can be the meaning.
A cycle does not necessarily have to be lunar-cycle; depends on context and how does one fast it?
2185 ? so from shahida from you the full-moon so he should fast it (i.e. the full-moon)?In all contexts full-moon works better than lunar cycle so there is no strong reason to switch the meaning.
First ask what the "wa" in word exactly means? 936 indeed count al-shwr
It denotes the plural. I am not sure what the difference is between "shohwr" and "ashohr". Both are plural and are fairly normal forms. For example, "forw3" and "afro3" both mean "branches" (plural).
It could be wait four menstrual cycles; depends on each woman and not wait four full-moons, use context ...
2226 to those who forswear from their women waiting four cycles so if they return so indeed The God Forgiving Merciful
2227 and if determine the divorce so indeed The God Hearing Knowing
2228 and the divorced women should wait by themselves three menstrual periods...Firstly, means menstruations and not menstrual cycles. Secondly, how do you wait for four menstrual "cycles"? There could be two answers
- Either to know precisely in what stage of the menstrual cycle a woman is right now and then match that precisely with the same stage after three cycles, which is extremely difficult.
- Or start counting from her next period event. In this case you would need to count FOUR period events to get THREE menstrual cycles. So it would have been easier to simply say "count FOUR menstruations". Also, what we would be counting is actually menstruations not cycles.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
shr cycle (3412 and to Solomon the wind its early shr cycle and its late shr cycle)
al-shr the cycleshryn two cycles
ashr cycles (prefix alif denotes plural)
al-ashr the cyclesshra cycle for (trailing alif denotes for/to e.g. 936 for 12 cycles)
936 indeed count al-shwr (what does ?wa? signify ? the cycle time-length?)
Salamun alaikum,
Sorry to point out that Arabic is neither read this nor translated like this. The information in parentheses is also not relevant to method of pluralization of singular words. For broken plurals there are fixed patterns.
First one has to know why the blud word is in accusative case. Arabic nouns are always nominative unless these are influenced by an actor to change their case to accusative and genitive.
The red word is in nominative case and absolute state. What is it doing in the text, whether it is subject, predicate and why is it in such circumstance?
Moreover what type of this "wind" is since it is definite noun?
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Small correction
Firstly, means menstruations and not menstrual cycles. Secondly, how do you wait for THREE menstrual "cycles"? There could be two answers
- Either to know precisely in what stage of the menstrual cycle a woman is right now and then match that precisely with the same stage after three cycles, which is extremely difficult.
- Or start counting from her next period event. In this case you would need to count FOUR period events to get THREE menstrual cycles. So it would have been easier to simply say "count FOUR menstruations". Also, what we would be counting is actually menstruations not cycles.
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salaam brother ayman
i would like to get your attention on this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604235.0 that derived from his initial subject
if quran was revealed one shot and not gradually, then the first verses in sourate al rum seems to indicate that the year of revelation is 614 since the battle is well known in history.
Notice that there was a full moon in 23 septembre 614 at exactly 1825Peace
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Firstly, means menstruations and not menstrual cycles. Secondly, how do you wait for THREE menstrual "cycles"? There could be two answers
Salamun alaik,
Perhaps a clarification was needed to let Noon correct perception about it. "Three cycles" cannot be its meanings for reason that is plural of abundance. An occassion of initiation of menstrual chischarge results in multiple discharges. It does not exhaust in one go. It continues for few days. is time adverbial in accusative case. And being possessive phrase is a single grammatical unit in the sentence.
Take note that in case of proclamation of husband's firm decision of suspending Matrimonial Bond-alienating his wife for eventual revoking Nikah/Matrimonial Bond in times after menstruation, the Alienated Wives should honestly and sincerely exercise self restraint from deciding their future course, for a time period of multiple menstrual discharges at three successive menstruation occasions.
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salaam brother ayman
i would like to get your attention on this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604235.0 that derived from his initial subject
if quran was revealed one shot and not gradually, then the first verses in sourate al rum seems to indicate that the year of revelation is 614 since the battle is well known in history.
Notice that there was a full moon in 23 septembre 614 at exactly 1825
PeaceSalaam,
Not true nope
23+614+18+25 is not divisible by 19
2+3+6+1+4+1+8+2+5 is not divisible by 19
23+614+1825 is not divisible by 19 -
From PRL
= Haa-Jiim-Jiim = to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, pilgrimage.
Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute.
Refrain/abstain.
undertaking
NounI would translate "hajj" as "undertaking/venture/enterprise".
2227 And call out to the people with the undertaking/venture/enterprise, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
Perfecto!... This person is spot on regarding the concept of Hajj. It is supposed to be a "conference" where Muslims from all over the globe can come and discuss how to maintain the Islamic economy, politics, social + other issues concerning our society/ planet. For futher reading, I had recommend Ghulam Ahmed Parwez's website Tolu-e-Islam, and look into his perspective about hajj as well.
I personally do not mind the rituals associated with Hajj- but the running and sacrificing a goat seems harsh. Nevertheless, I could talk while we jog lol!
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From PRL
= Haa-Jiim-Jiim = to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, pilgrimage.
Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute.
Refrain/abstain.I would rather choose "Hajj" = "Overcome Another by" due to the fact that hajj season provide alternative meat supply during the restricted 4 full moon period for hunting wild life, promoted by Prophet Ibrahim (p) inside & surrounding Beit al-haram.
The business, conference, meeting - resulting from the hajj season - are the spillover effect of this divine instruction.
In short, Prophet Ibrahim hajj (overcame/circumvent/bypass) the hunting restriction.
Peace & Regards
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Do we need to fast first 10 days of Dhu al-Hijjah ???
And fulfil the HaJJ and the visit for God. So if you are prevented/restrained then (give) what is easy of the offering/gift and do not relieve/unburden your chiefs/representatives (of this duty) until the offering reaches its permitted/lawful place* so whoever from among you was sick or with him harm/annoyance of/from his chief/representative then redeem/ransom from abstinence/fast or charity or sacrifice/observance.
So when you are safe/secure (i.e. in the designated vicinty) then whoever benefited/enjoyed with the visit to the HaJJ then (give) what is easy of the offering/gift, so whoever couldn't find then an abstinence/fast three days during the HaJJ and seven when you returned, this is ten complete.
That is for one whose people are not present (at) the inviolable time of acknowledgement (al masjid al haram) and be conscious of God and know that God is severe in punishment.
