Why do you reject hadiths
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Yeah but I am talking about how the QURAN understands the previous scriptures and not how me or you do. Which is why I think you based your argument that the Quran is refering to some other scriptures. What other scriptures are you talking about? There are no other Torah or Gospel. The Torah and Gospel the Quran is talking about is the same scriptures we have with us today.
That you say, but the Qur'an does not say Torah or Gospel it says tawra e injil. You say that those are the same thing that we have today known as tawrah or Gospel. That I do not think so, and the Qur'an does not say, unless you call the injil the four gospels or whatever you want to call also gospels from the number of those called apocrifous gospels that are around.
Sorry, as far sas I am concerned to want to make the same thing the tawrat the Qur'an talks about or the Injil as the Torah and the gospels as far as I am concerned is a hopeless quest.
No ill meaning or feelings, I see it that way and indeed without the shadow of a doubt. I will just mention that the text of the OT we have today is not the original "hebrew", but a translation to "hebrew" fromt he greek.
Salaam
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I agree with the Quran being a revelation, which is what I've already said previously. I believe Mohammed received the Quran as a light and a guidance, because that's what the Message says. Huruf explained my view quite well, actually.
But I agree with Bigmo. I don't believe the Torah or even the Gospel is totally wrong or totally false or at all like the hadiths. There are too many similarities with the Quran for those Scriptures to be entirely wrong in the forms they're in now. Plus, I believe God would have told us to abandon them, instead of correcting what He wanted to correct and guiding us to a better understanding.
Repeatedly, God tells us in the Quran that this Message confirms what came before and that He is consistent in what he sends down to mankind. Also, when it comes to Moses, over and over, the Quran admonishes us to "remember"...it's an oft-repeated instruction when Moses' name comes up. If everything given to Moses is gone now, then it would have been gone when the Quran was revealed...so God would have given us the instruction to forget what we've heard about Moses, here's the real story coming at you.
If you summarily toss out the Torah and the Gospel (that being the core message of Jesus and not the books the Nicene Council sanctioned and published), then you are tossing out what the Quran says we should do in regards to believing in the sum total of what God has sent down to mankind. The Message in the Quran is God's...the Torah was written down by God on tablets...the Gospel was alive and demonstrated in Jesus and his miracles to further God's teachings and give compassion to God's Laws.
To place Mohammed above other prophets and the revelation he was given above all others is a direct violation of what the Quran tells us to do. We are to make no distinction between the prophets. Prophet Mohammed gets the last word from God but not the only word, and God doesn't tell us, "Now that this Quran has come to you, ignore everything else." No, He tells us to use our mind, to think and consider, to use the Quran as a Guide and a Mercy so that we don't get tripped up by the inaccuracies and distortions.
Peace and thanks for the discussion. Very interesting views and thoughts emerging.
I must be writing chinese. ?Where have I said the the who9le of the bible is rubbish or there is nothing in it worthwhile. On the other hand you say that ALL hadith are false. Well the thing is that we do not know. Teh same as with the bible, we do not know where true stuff begins and where it ends, and THEREFORE WE MUST JUDGE BY THE CONTENT. ?Where have I said that there is nothing worthwhile in the gospels or the torah. I have not said that. I have said thst they are not unadulterated revelation, bec ause it is obvious there are things that are not revealed and, what is more, there is no pretending in that the Qur'an confirms what has been revealed before to everybody, sand not just the Injil and the Torah, but that God sent messengers everywhere, but that people deiate sand therefore the Qur'an corrects everything. Therefore WE ARE WARNED.
Let me copy part of my previous message, but that seems not to have been understood
"The gospels hold beautiful parables, the tenets of christianity themselves are in themselves beautifyl and moving parables, but the text of the four gospels, while holding great gems of morality, wisdom and spirituality are not the inyil, not the whole, unadded to, virgin, inyil. "
Where am I saying that there is no truth in it. If there is wisdom there must be truth, or not? On the other hand are those the only books in the world worthwhile considering as bearers of light, of some light? There are many. And there are many hadiths full of light too. So on that I insist. The bible, the whole of it is hadith, that is undistinguishable mixture of inspired and non inspired words, except by content. Only content can tell us whether it is gold or rubbish. As I said, there is plenty of gold in the gospels and other books of the bible, but it is a big temerity to certify the whole lot, just as it is a gross temerity to certify all hadith. Again, only content.
Salaam
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That you say, but the Qur'an does not say Torah or Gospel it says tawra e injil. You say that those are the same thing that we have today known as tawrah or Gospel. That I do not think so, and the Qur'an does not say, unless you call the injil the four gospels or whatever you want to call also gospels from the number of those called apocrifous gospels that are around.
Sorry, as far sas I am concerned to want to make the same thing the tawrat the Qur'an talks about or the Injil as the Torah and the gospels as far as I am concerned is a hopeless quest.
No ill meaning or feelings, I see it that way and indeed without the shadow of a doubt. I will just mention that the text of the OT we have today is not the original "hebrew", but a translation to "hebrew" fromt he greek.
Salaam
The Torah, Tawrat, The Law of Moses, or whatever you wish to call it was in Hebrew and that is the first 5 books of the OT ONLY, that is the Torah God refers to in Quran that He gave The Law to Moses, in Hebrew as Moses was Hebrew, not Greek.
some 'other additions' that are NOT the Torah or any part of it from God MAY have been in Greek, but THE Torah was and still is in Hebrew.
Quran places much more emphasis on the things and people from the Torah than the Injeel (Arabic) or Gospel (English) because the Injeel of Jesus is most likely one of the books (if there was such a 'book' that the Nicene Council dumped in 325ad along with all the other 'gospels according to..' by the people that were actually with Jesus at the time he was alive. Those 'gospels according to ' people like Thomas and Mary Magdalene are proof that Jesus never said he was God or the begotten son in the sense Christians are led to believe and proved he was a MAN with a message, the 'Church' didn't like that..........Paul made Christianity what it is today. The main (or maybe the only ) point that Quran does mention is the son of God thing, the rest is about Torah and the prophets of that because we do still have that and did in the early 700s when Quran was revealed.
My belief at this point in my studies is that the Injeel/Gospel was a 'teaching' by Jesus and was written by others as 'Gospel according to....' but those people with a true account of the teaching would be people who knew him and were his disciples, and there were/are those books but they are not in the NT as we now know it due to 325ad and Constantine's little reshuffle.
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The Torah, Tawrat, The Law of Moses, or whatever you wish to call it was in Hebrew and that is the first 5 books of the OT ONLY, that is the Torah God refers to in Quran that He gave The Law to Moses, in Hebrew as Moses was Hebrew, not Greek.
some 'other additions' that are NOT the Torah or any part of it from God MAY have been in Greek, but THE Torah was and still is in Hebrew.
Quran places much more emphasis on the things and people from the Torah than the Injeel (Arabic) or Gospel (English) because the Injeel of Jesus is most likely one of the books (if there was such a 'book' that the Nicene Council dumped in 325ad along with all the other 'gospels according to..' by the people that were actually with Jesus at the time he was alive. Those 'gospels according to ' people like Thomas and Mary Magdalene are proof that Jesus never said he was God or the begotten son in the sense Christians are led to believe and proved he was a MAN with a message, the 'Church' didn't like that..........Paul made Christianity what it is today. The main (or maybe the only ) point that Quran does mention is the son of God thing, the rest is about Torah and the prophets of that because we do still have that and did in the early 700s when Quran was revealed.
My belief at this point in my studies is that the Injeel/Gospel was a 'teaching' by Jesus and was written by others as 'Gospel according to....' but those people with a true account of the teaching would be people who knew him and were his disciples, and there were/are those books but they are not in the NT as we now know it due to 325ad and Constantine's little reshuffle.
Salaam,
Do you believe that this includes the Book of Barnabus that so many others talk about?
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Salaam,
Do you believe that this includes the Book of Barnabus that so many others talk about?
Salam peace Barnabas wasn't one of the 12 disciples of Jesus, according to the books of Paul (Saul) he was the one that brought Paul to the disciples after his supposed vision........according to Paul. There were 12 that Jesus chose, there were others that were declared or claimed to be, Barnabas and Paul were of those.
I read the book of Barnabas years ago and it was interesting!
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Salam peace Barnabas wasn't one of the 12 disciples of Jesus, according to the books of Paul (Saul) he was the one that brought Paul to the disciples after his supposed vision........according to Paul. There were 12 that Jesus chose, there were others that were declared or claimed to be, Barnabas and Paul were of those.
I read the book of Barnabas years ago and it was interesting!
Thank you for clarifying that...I hadn't gotten that far in my study of the Bible when I converted to Islam. I myself have read pieces of it...not sure what to make of it.
Peace,
Amina
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The original "hebrew of the OT was lost many centuries ago, and only a greek copy of it was kept. The PRESENT "hebrew" version of it is a translation from the greek that was preserved.
Salaam
Do you have any reference for your own assertion or is it just conjecture?
Salaam
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Peace huruf.
Are you conversing wit yourself or am I misunderstanding your posts?
Peace.
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Peace huruf.
Are you conversing wit yourself or am I misunderstanding your posts?
Peace.
No, my God I wouldn't converse with myself, how boring! My mistake I was answering message n? 244 of Ayisha, and I did the wrong quote.
Sorry for the mistake. D
Salaam
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Do you have any reference for your own assertion or is it just conjecture?
Salaam
It is rude to answer a question with a question without actually answering the question peace
But as we are playing I'll show you mine if you show me yours, yes the first part of my post is pretty much judaism 101, Moses was Hebrew so the Torah was in Hebrew coz God is clever and that's why He also did that amazing feat again and gave Quran in Arabic, coz Muhammed spoke Arabic....clever huh? yay
The Hebrew Torah was translated into Greek though for inclusion into the Alexandria Library.
The second part of my post was from Quran as if you look you will see more references to Torah characters than the NT characters..........other parts are what I've studied over the years about the Nicene Creed and the lost books and blah blah........... feel free to refute my logic with your own.
so now your turn bravo
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You just state what you believe, but no reference.
You are wrong that I was being rude. I was just trying to make you think from where you know what you think you know, because that way you might get the wiser even better than by asking me.
As it happens you just laugh at it. That's ok. But I did not take the question as a joke and I do not want to pursue it in that line.
There is plenty of information in internet if you are interested and actually anybody who knows anything about the bible knows that the extant hebrew version comes originally from a greek translation called septuagint. It is no secret nor a mystery nor something that is ever so rare that it was as if I was trying to sell you o green dog. What you choose to believe or not is your concern not mine.
Salaam
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Bigmo...ummm...I think you misread something. I was actually agreeing with what you had said, so I'm not sure what you got in a huff about. Similar views, stated slightly different ways, none of which was written in Chinese.
As for the Torah having to be translated from Greek back into Hebrew, that is fairly well known. There are writings (as in instructional type things) by Jewish scholars that mention there being certain problems with the translation, where they feel verses may have been transcribed out of order and similar types of mistakes.
I've read the Barnabas version, too, but I believe some questions have been raised about its authenticity based on syntax and language used, i.e., the language of the original manuscript "discovered" supposedly doesn't fit the time period. However, I"m not stating that as a fact since I only vaguely remember reading something like that.
huruf...I apologize. I missed your earlier post somehow about the "you" being clearer in meaning in Arabic than in English. Thank you for that clarification. I broached this subject because it was something I had been considering, and it seemed like the kind of topic that people on this site would offer insights about in ways I'd not considered.
Peace.
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Bigmo...ummm...I think you misread something. I was actually agreeing with what you had said, so I'm not sure what you got in a huff about. Similar views, stated slightly different ways, none of which was written in Chinese.
As for the Torah having to be translated from Greek back into Hebrew, that is fairly well known. There are writings (as in instructional type things) by Jewish scholars that mention there being certain problems with the translation, where they feel verses may have been transcribed out of order and similar types of mistakes.
I've read the Barnabas version, too, but I believe some questions have been raised about its authenticity based on syntax and language used, i.e., the language of the original manuscript "discovered" supposedly doesn't fit the time period. However, I"m not stating that as a fact since I only vaguely remember reading something like that.
huruf...I apologize. I missed your earlier post somehow about the "you" being clearer in meaning in Arabic than in English. Thank you for that clarification. I broached this subject because it was something I had been considering, and it seemed like the kind of topic that people on this site would offer insights about in ways I'd not considered.
Peace.
huff (hf)
n.
A fit of anger or annoyance; a pique stormed off in a huff.
v. huffed, huff?ing, huffs
v.intr.- To puff; blow.
- To make noisy, empty threats; bluster.
- To react indignantly; take offense.
- Slang To inhale the fumes of a volatile chemical or substance as a means of becoming intoxicated.
v.tr. - To cause to puff up; inflate.
- To treat with insolence; bully.
- To anger; annoy.
- Slang To inhale the fumes of (a volatile chemical
I am not sure what made you think this is what I am doing? Did i sound like anything above? I am just debating and discussing.
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hy?per?bo?le
noun (Rhetoric)
1.obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2.an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as ?to wait an eternity."And, now, to move from the rhetorical to the metaphorical...the winds are a bit too blustery for me here.
Peace.
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Peace hawkninetynine, all.
I have missed 30 years of prayers in my life.I got to know and be drawn to my creator later on in my life.
So according to your sunni friends , I have missed 365 x 5 x 30 prayers, which is 54750 prayers.
Now if every two prayers missed, I will have to make up 20 rakkats. I am 27375 x 20 rakkats behind.
That makes 547500 rakkats! I wonder how many credits missed?
Well if you do not hear from me, I will be very busy?
Peace.
Peace good logic,
lol! And If you didn't make up those 547,500 rakkats some of my old friends would hold it against you!
Peace O0